The Avengers!

[Gillianren]

Try this article.

http://www.avclub.com/articles/what-...s-comic,67395/

[DonM435]

You also might have been too old by then. After congress got involved and the dreaded Comics Code was enforced, comics were strictly for kids. It wasn't until the mid 1980's when the four part mini-series THE DARK KNIGHT RETURNS, came out and sold very well that comics were once again directed towards adults.

I recently turned my friend's 5 year old son onto superheros. When I decided to get him some comics I realized I didn't know what was appropriate anymore so I ordered collections from the early 1970's that Jack Kirby and Stan Lee worked on. I figured those were safe.

I have been told there are some that are still directed at kid's, but I don't know what they are. I mean, if you showed a little kid the series, Old Man Logan, about Wolverine he would have friggin' nightmares for weeks.

I wasn't old enough. My favorite comics were (and still are) the E.C. comics that had been effectively banned, but which you could still find occasionally circa 1960.

I stopped reading comics circa 1980. No question that comic books are more thoughtful now, but that means you have to pay attention to read them, and they aren't as much fun.

[Delvo]

OK, I'm missing something about the characters here. I know Thor's technomagical power and his unearthly origin, and Iron Man's use of bleeding-edge technology, and I know that Captain America's, Black Widow's, and the Hulk's bodies all have superhuman speed, strength, durability, and such, from different causes and to different degrees. But what's with the guy with the bow and arrows? I'm not aware of any superpowered modern-day archer in comic books; I've seen/heard of some comic books with modern-day archer characters but thought they were just ordinary humans, like Batman.

[Gillianren]

So far as I know, Hawkeye doesn't have any superpowers. Then again, I'm not sure Black Widow does, either.

[HenrikOlsen]

Going by classical Marvel trivia here:

So far as I know, Hawkeye doesn't have any superpowers. Then again, I'm not sure Black Widow does, either.

Technically, neither does Captain America, his physique is at the extreme optimum of the human range but he's not outside it (with his extreme longevity as a possible exception). The shield is the super thing for him.

I think Black Widow got a Russian version of the super soldier serum, to explain her unaging and physical abilities, though the whole Russian spy thing seems to have disappeared with the movie incarnation.

Hawkeye starts out as a carnival trick-shot artist, pure human. He later gets access to Hank Pym's size-changing tech and succeeds him as Goliath but he initially joined The Avengers without any superpowers.

[parallaxicality]

Has the new trailer been uploaded here yet?


I hope the Michael Bay vibe I'm getting off this is purely the result of trailer cutting and not a reflection on the final product. And what's with the Brad Feidel/Terminator beat?

[JCoyote]

Maybe I should point out that Thor being "out of place" isn't so problematic as the Hulk being far more out of place. Most incarnations of the Hulk are defined as being very nearly anti-social. To be honest saying the Hulk makes sense as part of a crime fighting team sounds a bit ridiculous to me... or as part of any sort of stable team. The Hulk has almost never been a member of the team for more than a story or two at a time. (The Professor incarnation of the Hulk from the 90's is the only significant exception to the Hulk not teaming up "rule".)

However, the Hulk does work well as a sort of "bomb" to drop on the opposition when it gets bad enough and that is a solid and in-character use for him.

But a core idea of the Avengers... and this does go back to those very first issues... is that they don't really get along that well. They don't have a lot in common. They are very different people with different backgrounds and different abilities. They represent a variety of themes. The only thing that holds the team together is a common desire to protect people. Ultimately the team has a high turnover rate of members joining and leaving and rejoining. This goes back to how the team was in many ways a response to the Justice League; the most powerful people on earth are not necessarily going to automatically be best friends, they are more likely to only grudgingly accept that they do need help on occasion.

[AKONI]

OK, I'm missing something about the characters here. I know Thor's technomagical power and his unearthly origin, and Iron Man's use of bleeding-edge technology, and I know that Captain America's, Black Widow's, and the Hulk's bodies all have superhuman speed, strength, durability, and such, from different causes and to different degrees. But what's with the guy with the bow and arrows? I'm not aware of any superpowered modern-day archer in comic books; I've seen/heard of some comic books with modern-day archer characters but thought they were just ordinary humans, like Batman.

He's sort of like Batman. Someone well trained with a lot of gadgets. In Hawkeye's case they're trick arrows, whether they explode on impact, contain a knock out drug on the tip, a small grappling hook, etc. He can fire off about four or five at a time and if they're all explosive tips he can cause a lot of damage with a single shot.

The Hulk is interesting in a, "We can't control this guy at all," kind of way, and if they follow the comics he should be off the team by the end of this movie or the middle of the next.


I remember years ago, when no one could pick up Thor's hammer, not even the Hulk (I hear they've changed this) because it was magical and you needed a certain amount of integrity to do so, Captain America lifted it off the ground with ease, and Thor acknowledged this fact. Seems the one person on the team who usually gets everyone's respect is Cap. Hawkeye is an exception because he's a rebel, and as of late Iron Man has been turned into a [jerk], but the rule of thumb was that everyone looked up to Cap. Because of his experience during WWII he ends up being the leader of the team.

There's a character called the Punisher. He's an anti-hero. Cap can't stand him because he murders without hesitation. I saw a comic once where he let Cap beat the hell out of him because he couldn't bring himself to strike back at someone he viewed with such respect.


I'm going to be very disappointed if Cap isn't portrayed this way by the end of the film.


Edit: I just read that The Avengers Trailer was viewed a record 13.7M Times on iTunes... This movie has a lot of great expectations to live up to.

[HenrikOlsen]

I remember years ago, when no one could pick up Thor's hammer, not even the Hulk (I hear they've changed this) because it was magical and you needed a certain amount of integrity to do so, Captain America lifted it off the ground with ease, and Thor acknowledged this fact.

In the Marvel universe, it's inscribed on the hammer and is part of the enchantment on it, that ""Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor."
For a long time this was interpreted to mean that only those worthy could lift it, rather than to mean that only those worthy would gain any benefits from lifting it. Under the old interpretation I think the number of being who lifted it can be counted on the fingers of one hand even if you cut off the thumb and pinky, Captain America being one and Beta Ray Bill being the other (Odin had a second hammer commissioned specifically because he'd showed himself worthy of wielding one).

That was also nicely used in the Walt Simonson story where Thor had been transformed to a frog and where him lifting the hammer and therefore (again) possessing the power of Thor resulting in the question "What do you call a 6'6" fighting-mad frog?" the answer also being the title of the issue (The Mighty Thor issues 364-366, 366 answering the question with "Sir!"). And yes, ridiculous though the premise sounds (and the cover looks), it's one of the best Thor stories ever because not only is it good story, it's also true to the mythological basis of the character.

From what I remember, Cap lifted the hamemr once, and was unable to lift it on another occasion, but I'm not 100% sure about that bit.

[Rhaedas]

Maybe I should point out that Thor being "out of place" isn't so problematic as the Hulk being far more out of place. Most incarnations of the Hulk are defined as being very nearly anti-social. To be honest saying the Hulk makes sense as part of a crime fighting team sounds a bit ridiculous to me... or as part of any sort of stable team. The Hulk has almost never been a member of the team for more than a story or two at a time. (The Professor incarnation of the Hulk from the 90's is the only significant exception to the Hulk not teaming up "rule".)

However, the Hulk does work well as a sort of "bomb" to drop on the opposition when it gets bad enough and that is a solid and in-character use for him.

I got the impression through the end of the last Hulk movie and the few spots in the Avenger trailer with Banner that maybe he had used some Eastern meditation to partially master the Hulk. At least control when he popped out, and maybe direct the damage. Otherwise I agree it would make no sense to have him, and especially explain the shot where he saves Iron Man from a fall.

[AKONI]

In the Marvel universe, it's inscribed on the hammer and is part of the enchantment on it, that ""Whosoever holds this hammer, if he be worthy, shall possess the power of Thor."
For a long time this was interpreted to mean that only those worthy could lift it, rather than to mean that only those worthy would gain any benefits from lifting it.

Yep, that one comic I saw, Cap picked it up, but didn't get the powers of Thor.

[PeterFab]

The things I get dragged into, way too early in the morning. Thanks Henrik. (just kidding)

Captain America has lifted the hammer on several occasions. In Thor #390 from 1988, in the 2099: Manifest Destiny one-shot from 1998, this is in an alternate future, and recently in the Fear Itself crossover.

Others who have lifted the hammer includes Beta Ray Bill, Spider-Man 2099, from the previously mentioned alternate future, Odin, who cast the magic on the hammer, Buri, who is Thor's great grandfather, a guy named Dargo from the 26th century, two sons of Thor from different alternate futures and Superman in the JLA/Avengers crossover.

[Delvo]

Technically, neither does Captain America, his physique is at the extreme optimum of the human range but he's not outside it (with his extreme longevity as a possible exception). The shield is the super thing for him.

I think Black Widow got a Russian version of the super soldier serum, to explain her unaging and physical abilities, though the whole Russian spy thing seems to have disappeared with the movie incarnation.

Hawkeye starts out as a carnival trick-shot artist, pure human. He later gets access to Hank Pym's size-changing tech and succeeds him as Goliath but he initially joined The Avengers without any superpowers.

On Captain America, I was going by what I've seen in video clips, which clearly call for more than what a human could do. I'm not aware of how his abilities were described in words. With Black Widow, I once complained about her over-the-top stunts in the Iron Man sequel, as an example of movie fight stunts being exaggerated to a silly extreme, especially when they involve waifish little women. Having never read a comic book featuring her, I was then informed that at least there was an in-story justification to allow it, because she was a result of genetic engineering.

Maybe the movies portray those two characters doing stuff that their comic-book incarnations couldn't have done. It would be consistent with a tendency I've noticed for quite a while for movie action scenes to require superhuman abilities of characters who aren't supposed to have them. And this might be more drastic with superhero movies than ordinary ones. The X-Men movies make superhuman strength, speed, and agility appear to be included among practically every mutant's powers, which really obscures the point when some few of those characters are actually supposed to be that way and end up not getting presented differently enough from the rest. And with Blade, there was an explicit rule change from the comic books that they spelled out pretty bluntly for the movies: normal human abilities on paper, superhuman strength, speed, durability, agility, & such on screen.

Anyway, a non-superpowered superhero in this kind of movie really doesn't make any sense, so they should all have something. And really, even the relatively slightly enhanced strength of Captain America or Black Widow, or some tiny explosive arrowheads or other such tricks for Hawkeye, are bound to be pretty pointless too, against high-tech invaders flying down from the sky. There's going to be a problem explaining how they're special enough to be on a team like this in the first place and what they could do in such a situation.

* * *

I thought that the Hulk movie that was intended as an introduction for this had starred someone with a much narrower face, like Edward Norton. Am I getting two different recent ones mixed up? Counting the one starring Eric Bana before that, does this mean that we've had not two but three independent Hulk movie restarts in about ten years?!

* * *

About the team not getting along well: there is a trailer out in which Captain America seems to be trying to pick a fight with Tony Stark about how he'd be nothing without the fancy suit. Stark gives a pretty good quick defense, showing that the snideness didn't faze him, and Thor laughs.

[JCoyote]

As for Hawkeye and Black Widow, while they were harder to justify in the comic, they do make sense as established in the movies so far. They are a couple of the best agents SHIELD has. If that agency is putting together a team of superhumans, attaching a couple of their best agents makes sense, especially when no one else on the team is part of that agency.

In the comics Hawkeye was brought onto the team during a time when it was just him, Captain America, Quicksilver (superhumanly fast) and Scarlet Witch (ability to cause strange unlucky things happen to her opponents). The team was relatively low power level at that point and Hawkeye seemed like a great part of it, especially considering more close-combat style. He stayed on as the team regrew in numbers and has been the perpetually underestimate savior of the team.

And as far as archers in comics, he and Green Arrow are very similar in many ways, only Hawkeye is more often depicted with more modern bow styles. Other than that? Their similarities were part of a running joke in the Justice League/Avengers 4 issue crossover a few years back. (A really fun story BTW.)

Hulk saving people is not out of character. Hulk wanting to spend time around anyone other than Betty or Rick Jones is. His most common catch phrase after "Hulk Smash" is "Hulk wants to be left alone!" if it's not "Hulk is strongest there is!" In his more intelligent incarnations he still tends to be a bit surly. Just because the character doesn't explicitly want to see people hurt and will save lives does not automatically make him team material.

[Gillianren]

I thought that the Hulk movie that was intended as an introduction for this had starred someone with a much narrower face, like Edward Norton. Am I getting two different recent ones mixed up? Counting the one starring Eric Bana before that, does this mean that we've had not two but three independent Hulk movie restarts in about ten years?!

My understanding is that Edward Norton didn't want to come back. This is not an excuse for casting Mark Ruffalo; in my opinion, nothing is. But if you watch after the credits of the Norton Incredible Hulk, it's quite clear that the intent was to tie him into this specific universe, because there's a bit with Tony Stark and Nick Fury. Personally, I think the better thing to do since they couldn't get Edward Norton back would be to write the Hulk out of the movie, but he's popular, so what do you do?

[Van Rijn]

On Captain America, I was going by what I've seen in video clips, which clearly call for more than what a human could do.

Almost all movie action heroes are effectively superhuman from their portrayal. Most can shrug off damage that would put most people in the hospital if it didn't kill them outright. They heal almost as fast as Wolverine. They are only minimally affected by great heat or cold. They can avoid a hail of bullets at point blank range, and if hit with one or two it's just a flesh wound. They can defy gravity, stun or kill with a touch and can use just about anything to kill at long range. Even more amazing, they can consistently AVOID killing if they wish to, their bullets or blows causing no permanent damage to anyone they don't want to kill.

So the superhero characters aren't really much of a stretch beyond what passes for normal in movies. Wolverine is just a bit better at healing than the average action hero, Superman just a bit stronger, etc.

[AKONI]

Some of you might like this..

Part 1
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BbizTBYs-rQ


Part 2
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hI_yEQ6Xh1s

[Noclevername]

There's the mainstream Avengers comics (where Cap and Black Widow are "merely" at the peak of human ability) and then there's the Ultimate franchise, where both are consistently described and portrayed as superhuman. The Ultimates, according to the writers, was specifically designed with film in mind, and seems to have a great deal more influence over the current movie series that the original comics.

[Glom]

There's a shot in one of the trailers on Black Widow standing in front of some kind of car wreck doing a sexy pose. It is how I described it.

[AKONI]

There's only one word to describe this movie... FUN!


It's as if God said... "Let there be Awesome!"


Two things I was happy to see (as a kid who used to read comics)

1. The Hulk could not pick up Thor's hammer.

2. Captain America did take charge during the battle. I was concerned with the popularity of Iron Man they would give him the lead spot (much in the same way they made the more popular Wolverine take the lead in the X-Men even though Cyclops was the leader throughout the comics).

[Gillianren]

Yeah, I was quite pleased with the movie, which we saw today. I've half a mind to annotate it, when I get it on DVD, with where I laugh and why, because it confused Graham a few times.

[Tog]

I still haven't seen Captain America. Would it be better to see it first, or would it matter?

The best line I've heard about The Avengers so far was on Twitter, and was basically: "As a long tome fan of Joss Whedon, I spent the entire second half of Avengers waiting for it to be cancelled."

[geonuc]

I still haven't seen Captain America. Would it be better to see it first, or would it matter?

The best line I've heard about The Avengers so far was on Twitter, and was basically: "As a long tome fan of Joss Whedon, I spent the entire second half of Avengers waiting for it to be cancelled."

That's a great line.

If you're not familiar with the character, it would be best to have seen Captain America first. Otherwise, it's hard to understand who he is.

[Gillianren]

I also just really liked Captain America. I thought it was the perfect summer blockbuster, even more so than The Avengers. (The fight scenes went on a bit too long for me.) However, if you have an idea about who he is and what happened to him in the previous movie--and between when his solo movie was set and now--you can handle The Avengers just fine, I think.

[publiusr]

I loved the Avengers. Best superhero movie to me. Especially the helicarrier. Heck, with that, Star Destroyers and the like, JJ Abrams should have made his Enterprise even bigger.

[marsbug]

I really enjoyed it, I've gotta say. Going by the rules of action movies, where 'normal human in peak shape' means strong as a world champion powerlifter and twice as fast as an olympic fencer, I'd say that Black widow and Hawkeye were just very well trained humans, and Captain America was super only because he had all the extremes of human ability rolled into himself all at once.

The aliens just didn't seem to be trying, and Loki seemed to be more bent on a backdoor kind of self destruction- in a 'if I provoke enough people badly enough they'll take me out and end my misery' way- so I got the impression the supposed invasion was more a test of Earths defenses, and Loki a warped and semi-willing patsy, an impression re-inforced by the post-credits sequence. It was fun though.

Re why would aliens invade at all? The emergence of complex life on earth is the only thing that makes it special. So a plausible motive for invasion would have to centre around that, or sheer spite, for me. The Borgs motivation for invading in Star Trek almost makes the grade for me: they want to absorb as much technological and genetic diversity as they can, so it would make sense they'd go for worlds whwere life evolves. Almost, if you really wanted that I can think of much more effective ways to do it.

[Romanus]

Saw this last night, and absolutely loved it. My enjoyment is more remarkable given the facts that I've never been much into the Marvel universe outside of the X-Men, and had only seen Thor and the first Iron Man going in. I was decidedly nonplussed for the first half-hour or so, but after that I was completely sold. I'm still debating whether it's the best superhero film I've ever seen, or just the best one with a group/ensemble cast. It's certainly the best Marvel-based movie I've seen, full-stop.

[AKONI]

Re why would aliens invade at all? The emergence of complex life on earth is the only thing that makes it special. So a plausible motive for invasion would have to centre around that, or sheer spite, for me.

Sometimes the simplest answer is the best... Conquest and control. The Romans started out picking fights because when they were small and weak they were attacked, so for them it became one preemptive strike after another, but then it turned into nothing more than greed for more wealth and the concept of conquest and control.

We don't need your land, we don't need your resources, but we're going to kill you anyway.


SPOILER...
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Thanos, the villain they show at the end credits has a completely different reason for why he's going to attack the Earth. He is in love with Death, but she shuns him, so he kills more and more people in an effort to make her fall in love with him, but she still wants nothing to do with him, so out of desperation he starts killing by the millions. This is why he smiles after the other character says, "To attack the Earth is to court Death."

[Gillianren]

And, of course, there are all of Loki's father issues. Which are legion. He refers to himself at one point as the rightful king of Asgard. He says that Odin is not his father, but it's obvious that he's trying to prove something to Odin by making good, and he doesn't understand that "conquering a world" is not really the same as "making good." And Earth treated his brother well, and he's got issues with his brother, too. It's nothing personal to Earth in either villain's case.

[marsbug]

[QUOTE=AKONI;2018313]Sometimes the simplest answer is the best... Conquest and control. The Romans started out picking fights because when they were small and weak they were attacked, so for them it became one preemptive strike after another, but then it turned into nothing more than greed for more wealth and the concept of conquest and control.

We don't need your land, we don't need your resources, but we're going to kill you anyway.

[QUOTE]

The 'Why? Because it's there!' argument. I get that, it's as plausible as anything I've heard, but to me that implies a massively unstoppable enemy - one that has resources to throw away on conquests it doesn't really need. Which doesn't make for good science fantasy because it's hard to have a plot when it's almost impossible for the bad guys to loose.

Re Loki's issues (spoiler for 'Thor'); He seems to think that he needs to be a great destroyer to be of value. Arguably thats what both Odin and Thor were when they were younger, and hence Loki thinks he needs to prove something. In that way he's no different than any young idiot picking fights: He's driven by insecurity, and peer pressure .