Visable objects with 5 inch Reflector

[Adamsavage]

I'm just wondering what I'm able to see with my Sky-Watcher Black Diamond 5 inch Reflector, using stock 10mm and 25mm eye pieces ? The best I've been able to see in the city and that's in the suburbs, is Jupiter's clouds and it's moons. On a really dark night, you swear you can almost see one of it's moons with the naked eye. I'm still trying to see if I can see a Nebula with it, but I havn't had much luck finding the exact spot of one. I think I've found the one the Orion's Constellation, but I've been waiting for the moon to reduce in brightness as a full moon really lights up the sky. I know once your far enough away from the city lights the sky darkens up quite nicely. I've been 30 minutes outside the city limits and the difference is like night and day. I can actually make out the milky way in the sky, it's faint and it looks like a cloud but it's there. That is of course with just the naked eye. I hasn't had a chance to go back out on a moonless night, now that I've learned more of what I'm looking at and where to find stuff. When in doubt, I have google sky map on my phone that helps me.

I'm also thinking of upgrading to Antares 10mm Super Plossl and getting a Antares 2x Barlow Lens. I've also considered a Nebula Filter but I know nothing about filters so I wouldn't know if it's a good thing to get or bad for a beginner. Thanks!

[RickJ]

My advise is the same as I and others have given here a zillion times but no one seems to read or believe if they read it. FIND A LOCAL ASTRONOMY CLUB.

They know your skies and can give you the hands on help you need. We can't. There are two in Ottawa. I know nothing about either.
http://www.rasc.ca/ottawa Contact: afraser@magma.ca Phone 613-737-4110
http://www.oaog.ca/ Contact: ocv@oaog.ca Phone: (613) 749-7592

The first lists over 400 members.

There may be others. I found these in a few seconds on Google. I didn't look further.

They can show you how various filters and eyepieces will help or not help you. At star parties you will get much hands on help. They will let you try their eyepieces and filters in your scope so you can see exactly what you will be buying.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

I sent them off a email in hopes I can the info I need. Hypothetically, say I had close to perfect sky conditions and I was far enough away from any city lights. What would you say the scope could see, with stock eye pieces to make it simple ?

[redshifter]

Good info here, including a 'what can I see' section: http://scopereviews.com/begin.html

[Adamsavage]

Turns out a local telescope shop has a rental program for a Sky-Watcher 200mm (8") Dobsonian. Comes with a whole bunch of eye pieces, filters and even a Barlow lens. If you buy a scope from them with in a month, they give a you a credit to go towards one. Kinda like try it before you buy it.

[RickJ]

Before that GO TO THE CLUB and get the help you sorely need. Even after trying it out you are now working with knowledge of only 2 of many many other scopes. This would be buying from ignorance. Going to a club and attending star parties you will get to try out FREE many different scopes and learn from their users. It's a far better deal. Also read until you understand everything at the website redshift pointed you to. It's all very good information and advice.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

Before that GO TO THE CLUB and get the help you sorely need. Even after trying it out you are now working with knowledge of only 2 of many many other scopes. This would be buying from ignorance. Going to a club and attending star parties you will get to try out FREE many different scopes and learn from their users. It's a far better deal. Also read until you understand everything at the website redshift pointed you to. It's all very good information and advice.

Rick

I'm still waiting for a reply from someone. Going to give it another day then resend my email to others from the club. Eventually someone should reply. I'm also going to stay away from the Telescope store, I know if I go there I'm going to be tempted to buy stuff I should be waiting to get a little bit longer. I'm able to find Orion's nebula now, it wasn't a matter of lining up my scope to see it. The issue was figuring out where it was, the thought never occurred to me to google it to find out exactly where it is. Now that I know where to look, I have the scope lined up and in focus in less then 2 minutes. I also learned before getting my first scope to stay away from scopes from stores like Wal Mart etc etc. I did some homework before buying one, to make sure I would be getting something that would be use and quality.

[redshifter]

I'm still waiting for a reply from someone. Going to give it another day then resend my email to others from the club. Eventually someone should reply. I'm also going to stay away from the Telescope store, I know if I go there I'm going to be tempted to buy stuff I should be waiting to get a little bit longer. I'm able to find Orion's nebula now, it wasn't a matter of lining up my scope to see it. The issue was figuring out where it was, the thought never occurred to me to google it to find out exactly where it is. Now that I know where to look, I have the scope lined up and in focus in less then 2 minutes. I also learned before getting my first scope to stay away from scopes from stores like Wal Mart etc etc. I did some homework before buying one, to make sure I would be getting something that would be use and quality.

Do you have a star chart and or one of those star wheels that identifies the constellations? If not, I think I know what you're first purchase might be...You could also head to your library; it may have subsriptions to astronomy magazines, you could photocopy the star charts they include.

I pulled an excerpt from the link I posted previously (bolding mine). You really should read the entire link though:

1) Learn to spot a few constellations and maybe a planet or two with the naked eye. If you can't point to M42, how do you expect to able to point a telescope (which has a much narrower field of view) there?

2) Subscribe to one of the two major magazines, Sky and Telescope or Astronomy. These will get you started not only with finding celestial objects, it will also acquaint you with the variety of equipment out there. Don't buy anything yet!

3) Join a club, or tag along on one of their observing sessions. This is the single best piece of advice I can give you. There is no substitute for spending time with real equipment out in the field. You may discover, for example, that you like the portability of Schmidt-Cassegrains, or that you enjoy the views through a good refractor, or that the big Dobsonian you saw in the catalog is much more of a handful than you imagined. Or whatever. There's no substitute for experience.

[Adamsavage]

I will give you an idea of my skill level, as It seem I will have to resend my email. I've learned to track Jupiter without the need of a star chart, I know where to look if I want to find Saturn. Venus is viable for a hour or so after the sun goes down. I can easily find the big dipper despite it being tilted right now, I know what Orion's constellation looks like. In fact it's one the easier to find due to it's sheer size. I've learned that it has a red super giant named Betelgeuse. I know Uranus is usually close to the moon and follows it. For a start chart, I don't actually have a physical one. I rely on google sky map to help me find stuff, I didn't rely on it at all at first till I was sure it was showing me what I was looking at. I tested it out for a couple days to make sure it wasn't giving me false info. I also have another application for my Droid called Vortex which shows me nebula's. The only thing I'm thinking of getting eventually are better eye pieces then the stock ones. I was looking @ Antares 10 and 25 mm Super Plossl eye pieces for better clarity of viewing.

[Hornblower]

I will give you an idea of my skill level, as It seem I will have to resend my email. I've learned to track Jupiter without the need of a star chart, I know where to look if I want to find Saturn. Venus is viable for a hour or so after the sun goes down. I can easily find the big dipper despite it being tilted right now, I know what Orion's constellation looks like. In fact it's one the easier to find due to it's sheer size. I've learned that it has a red super giant named Betelgeuse. I know Uranus is usually close to the moon and follows it. For a start chart, I don't actually have a physical one. I rely on google sky map to help me find stuff, I didn't rely on it at all at first till I was sure it was showing me what I was looking at. I tested it out for a couple days to make sure it wasn't giving me false info. I also have another application for my Droid called Vortex which shows me nebula's. The only thing I'm thinking of getting eventually are better eye pieces then the stock ones. I was looking @ Antares 10 and 25 mm Super Plossl eye pieces for better clarity of viewing.

My bold. Whoever told you that is sadly mistaken. Uranus takes 84 years to make a complete circuit around the celestial sphere, and appears to oscillate annually about 3 degrees on either side of its mean position as a result of Earth's orbital motion. It does not even come close to following the Moon in the latter's monthly circuit.

Just a reminder: Anyone and his uncle can post rubbish online without having it vetted by an editor or a librarian. Fortunately there are plenty of us in this forum and elsewhere who can steer you away from such garbage. Astronomy club members can do likewise.

[Adamsavage]

My bold. Whoever told you that is sadly mistaken. Uranus takes 84 years to make a complete circuit around the celestial sphere, and appears to oscillate annually about 3 degrees on either side of its mean position as a result of Earth's orbital motion. It does not even come close to following the Moon in the latter's monthly circuit.

Just a reminder: Anyone and his uncle can post rubbish online without having it vetted by an editor or a librarian. Fortunately there are plenty of us in this forum and elsewhere who can steer you away from such garbage. Astronomy club members can do likewise.

Nobody told me that, I haven't really followed Uranus to much, but any time I have looked for it, it's usually close to the moon. I guess I made a wrong assumption of it's path, I did a quick check on it's potion now, and with a little more thinking, it seems it just by chance it's close to moon when I have seen it.

[RickJ]

Once a month it will be close to the moon. Some sites like StarDate tend to mention the day this happens. Maybe this is why you find it there. Tonight as I type this Uranus is 142 degrees 54 minutes and 51 seconds from the moon. That's almost 80% of the maximum distance any two objects could be apart in the sky. As hornblower mentioned. It takes a lifetime to circle the sky once while the moon does it once a month. In fact the moon passes every planet once a month so will be beside one of them about one quarter of the month. You will get the straight dope from the astronomy club members. It's quite likely you've got many more misconceptions you don't realize.

For 27 years I was a supervisor of a public observatory. Nearly everyone that came had many such misconceptions, even college students taking a beginning astronomy course to meet their science requirement.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

There not even close to each other from where I live. The moon is going to rise in the west, and Uranus just set in the East about a hour ago.

[Adamsavage]

There not even close to each other from where I live. The moon is going to rise in the west, and Uranus just set in the East about a hour ago

[RickJ]

A very few sharp eyed folks can see a moon or two without optical aid. They are bright enough if Jupiter wasn't there they'd be rather easy being about 3 times brighter than the faintest star a typical eye can see in very good conditions. In fact we had one 7 year old at the observatory look in a scope at Jupiter and pronounce the image a fake. The reason he cited was when he looked at the moon as they came into the observatory he noticed three "small" stars to the left and one to the right very close to what he now knew was Jupiter. But we goofed we were told and put the picture in upside down so the three stars were to the right and one to the left. Since the scope he was using inverted the image left to right due to a star diagonal but was correct vertically it did reverse the sides they were seen on as compared to binoculars. I've never seen them without the aid of binoculars. A couple club members see Ganymede and Callisto when furthest from Jupiter. I can't do that either.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

A very few sharp eyed folks can see a moon or two without optical aid. They are bright enough if Jupiter wasn't there they'd be rather easy being about 3 times brighter than the faintest star a typical eye can see in very good conditions. In fact we had one 7 year old at the observatory look in a scope at Jupiter and pronounce the image a fake. The reason he cited was when he looked at the moon as they came into the observatory he noticed three "small" stars to the left and one to the right very close to what he now knew was Jupiter. But we goofed we were told and put the picture in upside down so the three stars were to the right and one to the left. Since the scope he was using inverted the image left to right due to a star diagonal but was correct vertically it did reverse the sides they were seen on as compared to binoculars. I've never seen them without the aid of binoculars. A couple club members see Ganymede and Callisto when furthest from Jupiter. I can't do that either.

Ok then I'm not going crazy, I've sworn I could just barely make out one of the moons of Jupiter with the naked eye. I couldn't tell if my eyes where playing tricks on me or what it was. It was incredibility faint to, so if you don't know what your looking at, you wont notice it.
Rick

[astromark]

No, my eye sight has not allowed me to see those moons of Jupiter without some magnification..

This little RANT has been mentioned already and I fear, ignored.. but it's well worth repeating and

I trust you will heed this advice, given so freely, so often..

Seek out and meet. Talk with and attend with a local group of astronomy driven people...

Put aside any previous experience's and preconceptions held.. Its very good advise.

The will teach you about things like the ecliptic and how you latitude governs your view..

and NO the moon does not rise in the west.. that is just a error.. Its all East west always..

That being the action of Earth's rotation upon your view..

A local group will show you how and with what you should view..

You could by simply meeting with these people gain a advantaged position,.

* and I returned to add; that ALL of the planets follow the ecliptic line.

So it might NOT be so wrong to voice that the moon seems to chase or follow the planets..

Its talking with experanced astronomers that will guide your understanding thus.... Mark.

[Adamsavage]

Well I have plans to upgrade in a sense to a different scope. I decided that I want a scope that has a motor, always having to adjust the scope specially when I'm trying to get a good view is a pain. So for now I'm thinking of getting this scope. It keeps the same size and power, it's smaller so it's easier to move around.

http://focusscientific.com/osCommerc...products_id/30

[redshifter]

Well I have plans to upgrade in a sense to a different scope. I decided that I want a scope that has a motor, always having to adjust the scope specially when I'm trying to get a good view is a pain. So for now I'm thinking of getting this scope. It keeps the same size and power, it's smaller so it's easier to move around.

http://focusscientific.com/osCommerc...products_id/30

Have you been to a star party or a meeting of your local astronomy club yet? You may find there's a scope that works perfectly for you that you've not even heard of yet. IMO a 'manual' scope is good for starters because it forces you to learn the sky. And you may discover that finding objects yourself is half the fun.

[Adamsavage]

Have you been to a star party or a meeting of your local astronomy club yet? You may find there's a scope that works perfectly for you that you've not even heard of yet. IMO a 'manual' scope is good for starters because it forces you to learn the sky. And you may discover that finding objects yourself is half the fun.

I'm looking for more portability then anything else, and with out downgrading in the power at the same time. I can easily learn the sky if it goes there on it's own, vs manually figuring it out with the help of Google Sky map. Plus, I'm trying to stay local to reduce the overall cost. I could get a scope elsewhere but the shipping would pretty hefty. Reason for wanting something more portable is largely due the light pollution where I live. If it's smaller and more portable then I can easily just find somewhere close by that's not as bad and little darker. When you don't own a car, portability is everything.

[RickJ]

I can easily learn the sky if it goes there on it's own, vs manually figuring it out...

I've seen dozens who felt this way they all failed. You are arguing from ignorance I'm sorry to say. You ignored Redshifter's very important question about finding a club and attending a star party or two and attending some meetings. There you will learn the real dope and what works and doesn't work in your area. Have you read and digested the info at the links we gave you? Doesn't sound like it. There you'd have learned goto scopes that actually work cost about $1500 or more! Likely beyond your budget. Also, if buying locally they will know the places that won't sell you a junk scope. This can be a real problem with some dealers. Not knowing Ottawa I can't help you but they can. Also while I support buying locally if possible it isn't always more expensive to buy off the internet if (a big if) you have done your on hands research with the local club first. Remember, your local deal paid shipping as well, he just built it into his price. Canadian tariff's can be an issue as well from what I've heard.

You appear to have many wrong impressions about telescopes and this hobby. Not uncommon. In fact the majority fall into this trap. For instance smaller is ALWAYS less powerful. This is why observatories are constantly building larger and larger telescopes. That isn't to say a small scope wouldn't be right for you, just don't expect it to do what a larger one would. A small quality refractor will outperform most reflectors of the same size but be far more costly. All scopes are a compromise, be sure you understand every one in the scope you pick as well as those you reject. Run it buy your club to get their opinion. They know your skies so can give the best advice. Also a dark spot in the city still looks through the light dome of the city so the view is no better than it is in a bright area if you properly shroud you head while viewing so the local light doesn't hurt your night vision. Not having a car isn't always bad. I've hauled many of our members to star parties under dark skies who didn't have a car or other transportation. I'm sure your local club would do the same. They'll help you get to meetings as well.

I helped found our club over 50 years ago. Over that time I've watch hundreds come to our star parties with their proud new telescope. Nearly all went home realizing they had bought the wrong scope. All their ideas were shot to pieces by that one star party. Don't let this be you. Control your ego and get help you need before buying anything.

The best way to learn the sky is a star chart, a pair of binoculars and a good book on binocular astronomy. Not glamorous but will pay huge dividends in the long run, often saving your interest in the hobby. Nearly all who think learning the sky with a goto scope is possible leave very disillusioned. Even a good expensive one. It just doesn't work that way. Again see Ting's article (Point 6). Those who swallow their pride and go back to learning the sky the right way survive but not after losing a year or more. If light pollution is so bad none of this is possible consider solar observing. That will be great with say an inexpensive PST that allows you to see solar prominences and filaments as well as the magnetic structure of the chromosphere. This changes by the minute and can be super fascinating to watch. Once you've seen a major prominence leap off in a mass ejection event you will be hooked for life. Gives real meaning to spectacular! A major twin ribbon flare blowing can be spectacular as well as the sun appears to split open along two cracks. Not at all what's happening but sure looks like it. With the increase in solar activity this would be a good choice for portable, "powerful", small and relatively inexpensive.

I do use a goto scope, that is one of my 10 scopes is a goto. The others are not computerized in any way. The mount alone, no telescope, for my goto was $9500, now $14,500 after a price drop. Not exactly your price range but it does work very very well. We see a constant stream of users of under $1000 goto scopes at a public observatory I worked as a supervisor for 27 years. We'd show them how to use them and how to search around the place it pointed for their object, they miss half the time, but they come back week after week as they just can't get them to work. Finally they quit coming. Did they finally get it to work or give up? Probably the latter. That was the case with several who still came to us weekly but without the scope they sold to another sucker. You have been warned.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

Then I will keep the one I have and I can learn both. Either way, it doesn't ignore the fact I'm going to need something that's alot more portable then what I currently have. There is an upcoming meeting that I'm going to try get to with my scope, however without a car, this will rely solely on if I can get a ride there and back. This is also another major hurdle for me to join a Club. I don't need something that is go to, I just basically wanted something that would stay on target without needing to be on the ball with adjusting the scope. I'm interested in this hobby, but I doubt I will be as hardcore as alot of people are here. I don't see how having something like Google Sky Map is any different then having a scope that goes to the object for me. Eventually I will learn what's around the star. With BOTH scopes I can learn from each, but as I mentioned without a car, I need something I easily move to somewhere darker in the City. I've learned of a couple "dark" spots in the city that are only a few KM from my house. It's not a solution for the light pollution in they city, but I've paid close attention the darkness levels in different parts of the city.. I've learned it doesn't take much to get a slightly darker sky. Would you rather I go and get a cheap "Travel Scope" that probably wont be much better then my 15 x 70 Bino's ? In fact I wouldn't be shocked to learn my Bino's would be better. After all I can see the M42 Nebula with them from my back yard, with porch lights on all around me, big parking lot light glaring down into the back yard.

[RickJ]

Smaller than your 5" will be a big step down in performance unless you go with a rather expensive APO refractor. They can be small in length and perform fairly well but need good mounts (not cheap or light).

You seem to over estimate the difficulty of "pushing a scope around". Yes, like any skill you need to learn it but once learned you'll find mounts such as a Dobsonian will push around very smoothly and easily. I use our club's 13" at 400 power with ease. No effort at all. Keep in mind a driven equatorial or computerized goto alt azimuth (all alt azimuth mounts that track are also goto as far as I'm aware) mount will easily double the cost of a small telescope and not be nearly as steady as a good Dobsonian mount. Again you'd learn this very quickly at a star party. Or reading and understanding Ting's article.

15x70's are bigger than I'd want for learning the sky. I used 7x35 in light polluted skies as my eye didn't even open to their 5mm exit pupil. Larger was a waste in those skies. You want low power as it will give you 4 times the field of view compared to the 15x70's making everything MUCH easier. Again, the sticky note at the top of this forum goes into all this.

You really need to look into that PST I mentioned rather than a new night scope. Used right, even from your location it can do as well or better than anything you can likely afford. I'm sure several will be in a decent size club. No worries about light pollution, very portable, with performance that many paid 10 times more for a few years ago. Each time a new club member sees one it immediately goes on their must have list.

Many years ago I tried using my 10" f/8 scope equatorial (huge monster) from conditions like you mention. With the shroud and patch it worked quite well -- until the cops showed up. Seems I was constantly reported by residents of the complex for looking in windows. Cops watched from a distance and saw the scope was only pointed at the sky but I'd get a visit every time. Finally I was told they'd charge me with disturbing the peace if they were called out again. Yes I was doing nothing wrong except making the apartment dwellers nervous. But that constituted disturbing the peace. A friend of mine many years ago lived in the DC area. He took his 8" dob f/4 out to a park south of Andrew's air base. The same thing happened to him as everyone reported he had a mortar aimed at the base and was about to fire it! While very portable it does look like a mortar. He got a $300 ticket for viewing the sky and banned from the park. He was an airman stationed at the base so got in even deeper trouble with his CO!

Again, the locals will know the places to observe from without bothering nervous folk. I hope Ottawa is more forgiving than Omaha or DC was. Even in the country you can get into trouble. Much of our club spent much of the day in jail for pot possession because we drove through some ditch weed to reach the observing site and small pieces stuck in our grills! Charges were dropped but we had to hire a Federal judge as our attorney to get the charges dismissed. Fortunately he was a good friend of my family! We might still be there otherwise as the state patrol spent 5 figures to trap us when the farmer told them we had asked to use his field. He routed us through the ditch weed per the state patrols instructions so we got off on an entrapment technicality. If we'd have picked the route I hate to think what might have happened.

I've been doing this since 1954 so horror stories are not the norm but just pointing out it can be a good idea to verify the location with those knowing the area. Even then we almost got clobbered by a trumped up pot charge. Then there was the swat team that swooped in by helicopter to arrest me and another club member using our clubs observing site that we owned. They had cuffs on my friend but being an attorney I was able to avoid that indignity and get them removed from my friend. It was daytime, we were cleaning up the site and doing some shooting of black powder guns into a berm on a Sunday afternoon when this one happened. Even though we both had keys to the gate, which their ground vehicles destroyed, they were sure we didn't belong there. While my fast talking delayed things it was the local farmers mad about the cops ripping up their crops to reach us and verifying we did in fact own the site that saved our backsides -- it pays to know your neighbors. All this time two helicopters hovered overhead in case we made break for it. Since they accused us of using full automatic arms at 600 rounds a minute I was jokingly known for a while as the worlds fastest with a ramrod! Load and fire 10 times a second. I must be really really good. My friend was using a civil war Colt .44 cap and ball revolver so it could fire about once a second (single action) then 10 minutes to reload.

Viewing from a dark location in town cuts the need for a good shroud to keep your eyes dark adapted but won't help one iota seeing faint detail as the light dome you are viewing through is exactly the same, just local light is less. Only if you go to the edge of town and view away from the light dome will you see a difference but not near an air base! When viewing from a well lit area, besides the shroud I use an eye patch. I keep it over the viewing eye until I'm under the shroud and ready to view. This will make a far bigger difference than going to a nearby dark area. Again things the locals will teach you.

[RickJ]

More good advice.
http://365daysofastronomy.org/2012/0...rs-astronomer/

Rick

[Adamsavage]

I'm not pushing a scope around to a dark spot in the city..Id be insane to attempt to. I get enough of a work out pushing the one I have now around a few hundred feet at most around my house area. I have a bike and trailer I can use. I can put the mount in the trailer and the scope itself if placed quite carefully should fit in my backpack with some extra padding. As long as I don't ride the bike stupid, have lights on it and pay attention I should be fine. I've literally had 27 inch tvs on a bike, carried a chair on my head while riding my bike as well. So I have alot of experience when it comes to using my bike trailer. I've never had any problems with people thinking I'm looking into windows, then again I'm usually lit up from the lights all around me. So with that, I think this is my Que to leave this forum. I thank everyone for the advice, I have read over the links and I will be going to the Telescope Store Thursday to have a look around ask questions in person. I have not made up my mind what I'm going to be doing but I know I'm going to need something that is portable. So this problem will not go away.. I was you all good luck with everything. I'm out.

[RickJ]

Sorry you ignore advice. As I've said several times Lugging a scope to a shaded area of town WON'T help. What will is learning how to view from the area you are in. I routinely viewed 13th magnitude galaxies from my apartment complex parking lot with the shoud and eye patch technique until cops chased me. My mistake was not getting neighbors involved. If I had there'd have been no problem.

NEVER buy a scope from a salesman. He's there to make money for the shop. You need the advice of the club you seem to ignore.

Good luck. Few with your approach succeed so you'll need it.

I hope you can report back in a year that we were wrong.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

I know I said I would be leaving, but I got the email and I came back to defend this person you so aggressively seem to want bring down. I've had quite a few exchanges with the "Salesman" over facebook, and I can tell you that he has done nothing but try and be helpful to me. Not once has suggested I buy something. I work in a Retail store myself, so I would know right away if someone is simply trying to ** me or trying to sweet talk me into buying something. I'm not your average mindless person that will just pull out my wallet no questions asked. The only time someone has been able to sell me something, is when I'm already looking to buy something. I've had a few try to get me to spend more then I was willing to go and it didn't work. Would a Salesman offer a Used Scope to you as possibility down road ? The dishonest ones will try and sell you the most Expensive one they have. To be honest that can bite you in the butt. The salesman who is honest and helpful, in the long run will make more money. The simply reason is I would be willing to go back to that store, and I would refer others to the same store. When I've linked him over Facebook the scopes I was looking at, not once did he try to offer me a Scope I didn't need or couldn't afford. There is a possibility that you live your life automatically distrusting people, and that's fine. The truth is, not everyone is going to be out to get you. In fact I've linked him the Direct link this topic, and he says the same thing. He has not once tried to sell me something.

I'm looking for something that is more portable then what I have. It's not uncommon for someone to have more then one Scope either, different Scope for a different situation. It is a big hassle trying to lugg my current scope around where I live to get a better view. I have alot of tree's around me and I'm surrounded by houses. I really fail to understand Rick, why you can't see this. Yes I'm new to this, but by all means I'm not stupid and I know what my needs are. If I'm ever going to learn the sky, I need to something that is more portable so that I can get a better view of it. I have to ask though Rick, are you an Argumentative person ? It seems to me no matter I said, or how I word it, you seem to find fault in what I say and argue with me. I'm right and your wrong. I'm not going to go out and spend 2k on a scope if that's what your worried about. I figured instead of getting a scope that has more power, I would get something that is smaller and easier to move around. This way I see the sky in the shaded areas of the city without breaking my back trying to do. I have a craving to see the sky under natural dark conditions, something that is more portable might just be the thing I need. It's not practical to lugg around the big one I have now.

Another thing, I don't recall once ever saying I was ignoring a Club..I plan to go to a meeting, they simply have not had there meeting yet. This also brings me back to the fact I don't own a car, this limits my travel in the city. So go to the link I put up and go see for yourself if he has tried to sell me anything.

[Hornblower]

Let me follow up on Rick's words of wisdom with my own experience. I started learning the night sky the old fashioned way as a child, with nothing more than charts and binoculars. Luminaries such as Orion, the Big Dipper, Cassiopeia, etc. were easy to learn, and fainter asterisms followed with the aid for my youthful enthusiam. When my father got a simple, unguided 3-inch reflector, I started learning to handle it on the Moon, Jupiter and Saturn. After that, bright double stars such as Mizar and Albireo were straightforward to observe. Faint fuzzies were harder, but I eventually learned to find them by star hopping. Help from a club would have made it much quicker and easier.

Decades later I was called on to show some telescopic sights to a colleague and his young children. Even though it was so murky and light polluted that I could not see anything fainter than Vega, Deneb and Altair with the naked eye, I picked up Albireo immediately in the finder and had the kids looking at it in the main scope within a minute. I was able to do this because I already knew the sky, and I did it in less time than it would have taken to initialize a go-to scope. Had I not known the sky, such an initialization could have failed if I had sighted on the wrong stars out of ignorance.

On a really clear night I can see stars as faint as 4th magnitude even in the severe light pollution here in the inner suburbs of Washington, and binoculars or an equivalent finder scope will take me to 8th magnitude, provided I shield my eyes against local bright lights. That will show me every star on my Wil Tirion charts and enable effective star hopping for faint fuzzies that can be seen through the sky glow.

Knowing what I know now, if I had it to do over again, I would put the 6-inch Newtonian I built as a teenager on a Dob mount instead of an equatorial, for ease of transport. With good bearings I find it easy to follow the object, and with guests at a star party it is no trouble at all for me to take a few seconds to recenter it after each guest finishes looking.

[RickJ]

He sees non existent or small, easily over come problems rather than the many possibly fatal ones. Unfortunately, he is in for a ton of rude awakenings. If I judge his budget correctly nothing smaller and more portable taken to "a nearby darker area" can equal the performance right from his well lit parking lot if he'd learn the needed skills. I've seen it far too many times in the 50+ years of our club. Sometimes a member gets a good buy on a scope that was totally wrong for a beginner but that's not much consolation.

He wants the royal road to the hobby. Someone wrote an editorial about "There's no Royal Road to astronomy or something like that". Must be on line someplace but since he appears to have ignored the other links or decided they are wrong, I can't tell which, I suppose that would be wasted effort to find. Last link I gave him starts out warning the beginner NOT to go visit a telescope store until you've done the many needed preliminary steps he hasn't done. But he's off anyway. President of a major club doesn't know anything I suppose.

I guess I could have suggested a better way to learn the sky with automation would be to mount a cell phone on low power binoculars loaded with one of the better sky pointer aps. That would tell him what he was seeing. His present 15x binoculars' field would be so small I doubt it would help and he appears to ignore the several recommendations for a smaller pair. Even 50 years ago I'd have found a 70mm binoculars very tiring. A good stand would be hard to carry on a bike as well. Probably would fall on deaf ears as well. I got the neighbor's granddaughter doing this, but not even using binoculars, she's nine, no now she'd be 10, and having a ball with it. Her dad mounted the phone on a stick with a small dowel at each end for a sight. Phone clamp was aligned using the moon which even they could find. Now, in a year she's an expert on the sky. Probably knows more about obscure stars than I do. She lives in Chicago so LP has to be bad! She can tell you exactly when M1 will be on her meridian, no computer, only her brain needed. Last I knew her dad had adapted a pair of 6x30 binoculars to the cell phone so she's now learning star clusters and bright nebulae. They'd bought her a junk 80mm Meade refractor which is filed away until they can afford a real scope for her, dad lost his job when his company closed the Chicago office so money was tight. When visiting grandma summer next I want to get her started with my 6" f/4. She's ready for a usable scope. No mount needed. I use it sitting in a lawn chair at 27X. I've easily found all M objects with it that way. She can too now that she knows the sky.

Maybe he'll get an honest salesman at the store who will be more successful in reaching him, they do exist. I'd have killed for a PST at his stage. Maybe they will set one up for him to try out front. Nothing like any of today's H alpha scopes existed when I started at any price. It would give him hours at the scope in his parking lot and the view would be different every few minutes with no LP issues at all. Once I did get a solar scope I built a camera system to bring the image into my office so I could monitor it all day at work. Though it was hard to work with all that activity going on, very distracting but half the office staff (I was boss so couldn't complain even when they'd block my view) would crowd around the monitor when I'd let out a shout of excitement at something major starting to happen. They still got their work done but I often had do mine at night! This was two solar max ago. That cost me huge bucks back then. Now a few hundred will do it. Amazing.

I'd have not gotten very far ignoring the advice of those with more experience than I had. Even when young and I "knew it all" I did know experience trumped my ignorance. I wasn't happy about it sometimes but I followed it anyway. We see more and more of it in the club, usually from young without much money to spend but who will buy "affordable" junk rather than save for something useful and get it far sooner that way. Or those older successful businessmen, doctors, lawyers, etc. who figure throw enough money at it and it won't matter that I'm totally ignorant of the hobby. Saved a few of the young ones but only one of the latter sort of survived. The many expensive failures really gave our experienced members great deals. I'd have preferred a different outcome so my conscience kept me from buying any of it.

Rick

[Adamsavage]

Actually, I got the Bino's because crappy tire had them on sale for $50 and I had lost the ones I had before. I've tried to bring my scope in a van and that was a hassle on it's own.This why I want to get something portable.. Just last night with lights on all around me, 85% humidity outside I was able to see Saturn with it's rings. At first I thought it was my eyes playing tricks on me, However I kept staring at it and moving my eye around alittle and eventually it came into focus enough that I was able to see a gap between the planet and it's rings. Now If I had not paid any attention to the advice anyone has given me then I wouldn't be able to accomplish what I did. I'm new, yes I'm well aware of this. However I'm learning very quickly with this. Just today when I went to see the evil salesman that would try and sell me something I don't need or want, he showed me how to balance my scope and align it right. He was able to do this because they literally had the exact same scope and mount that I have at home. I did also see the downside to the small scope that was I looking at. Because it has 2x the focal length of my scope, I'm getting a higher Magnification earlier on.

Example: With the scope I have now I would get 158x magnification using a 8mm eyepiece and 2x Barlow. With the Celestron 5 SE with the same eyepiece and Barlow I would get 317x magnification which is a waste because the max you would ever get out of the scope is 250x. I did however get a Baader Hyperion 8mm Eyepiece and a Barlow 2x. I was thinking more long term on the upgrade on the eye piece. I knew that higher the scope power the more your field of view reduces, so I figured if I can get something with a wide field of view this wont be as much of an impact. This will be helpful down the road when I upgrade the scope eventually sometime in the future. The type of scope I would like to get in the future is a Dobsonian Telescope. They are alot lighter and thus easier to carry outside. I tried lifting a 8 inch version of my scope and I said no way..It's to heavy and where I live I have to physically move the scope around from spot to spot because a house is in the way or whatever the case may be. Also, before you go off another rant about shaddy salesman, due note that I made the choice to buy the eyepiece. I was NOT pressured at all. He explained to me the differences in the eye pieces they had. I then made the choice to go with something that had a larger field of view. This will allow me to see more with the scope and get the most out of what I have now.

So unless you can explain as simple and as short as possible why I shouldn't get the Celestron 5 SE, then I may very well get it. You say it won't help me etc etc..Why ?? Also why is it wrong to have scope that I can take with me to a darker section of the city ? Darker is better right ? It's not like I'm going to be driving with the scope on the bike..The scope goes in my backpack, and the mount can go into my bike trailer. The trailer of course would be hooked up the back end of the bike. Explain why even though the sky is darker, that It can help. Is it because the difference is so small that It's not even noticeable when looking at say Jupiter or a star cluster. I've proven to you already that I'm starting to learn the limitations of my scope already and very quickly. It's not like I'm some complete idiot here that knows nothing about the sky at all. I can see sorta see why your against a go to, because even though the scope goes to the object right away I still need to learn how to find it on my own. I know the ballpark area it's in, but the pinpoint location is where this might become a problem..I don't even care for a go to, I just want something that tracks the object for me. So for now I'm going to learn how to get the most out of my scope.