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Thread: "Houston, we have a problem!" (Yugoslavian space program)

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    "Houston, we have a problem!" (Yugoslavian space program)

    Upcoming Slovenian 2013 docudrama "Houston We Have a Problem" will reveal one of the biggest secrets of space race during cold war - Yugoslavian space program and it's crucial impact to USA effort to catch the USSR in the Space Race.



    Post WWII Yugoslavian leadership made rapid development based on unknown diaries of Yugoslav and world space pioneer Herman Potocnik - Noordung. Technical solutions described in Potocnik's unpublished papers were the basis for establishing secret Yugoslavian space programme in 1948, after Josip Broz Tito's conflict with Stalin.

    In late 1960, CIA discovered that Yugoslavia already had an operational space-flight technology.
    In March 1961 Yugoslavia secretly sold complete space programme to USA.
    In May 1961, Kennedy announced USA choose to go to the Moon.

    Directed by Academy Award nominated Slovenian director Ziga Virc, this documentary will reveal the reasons for Yugoslavian leader and post WWII lifetime president Josip Broz Tito to build and maintain the biggest secret underground space centre in Europe, in army base Zeljava with code name "Object 505".

    The release of a Slovenian documentary, Houston We Have a Problem, alleges a new twist to the the Cold War: American bought a secret Yugoslav space programme to put it in space.
    The posting of a documentary trailer by user YugoslavianSpace on January 9, 2012 is offering a rather unusual twist to the Cold War story, more than fifty years after America announced its intention to go to the Moon in May, 1961.
    The trailer claims that the full documentary, entitled Houston, We Have a Problem - to be released later this year - will show that the CIA discovered a secret Yugoslav space programme in 1960 and, behind in the space race with the Soviet Union, they bought the entire programme from Yugoslav President Tito in March, 1961, just two months before President John F Kennedy announced America's lunar ambitions.
    According to the documentary, the origins of the Yugoslav space programme lay in the writings and work of Herman Potocnik, whose 1929 book Problem Voznje po Vesolju (The Problem of Space Travel) inspired former Nazi and architect of the American space program Wernher von Braun.
    What America did not get their hands on were other writings and drawings by Potocnik, and these were found by Tito's secret service in 1947, and they played an important part in the Yugoslav space programme, which was started in 1948.
    Living standards in Yugoslavia improved considerably, and the socialist country enjoyed rapid economic development with generous American financial aid.
    The trailer claims the documentary will reveal how tito built the biggest secret underground space centre in Europe, and that in fact some of the American rockets were made in Yugoslavia, and that Tito and his wife were regular visitors at NASA's facilities. The base is at Zeljava on the Croatian-Bosnian border, also known as Army Base 505.
    After the purchase of the space program…… Yugoslavia had an economic boom after adding $2.5 billion dollars to their bank account.
    The authors of the documentary are Boštjan i Žiga Virc, and the full story will only be revealed with the full documentary, but the trailer is available below.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EfJiNPZ38kY&feature=player_embedded
    Last edited by pzkpfw; 2012-Jan-11 at 08:22 PM. Reason: Kill live link

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    If they are basing it on the dates of the manned space program, then we have a few issues.
    The Yugoslavians would have had to make test flights and test concepts and technologies that were superior to the US at the time. If they launched anything, then the world would know it. The world knew about Sputnik.

    Why would the US buy Yugoslavian technology in 1960 when we were well on the way of having valid technology for space? We launched Explorer 1 in 1958 with a program that started in 1954.

    The US already started the Redstone rocket in 1950 which is the one that put the first US astronaut in space.

    I did watch the video, and it looks like they are going to use political cooperation to infer the same for space.

    I already saw two major problems in that preview (there's plenty others, but these 2 stick out in my mind)
    If they sold us the technology, then why did thier rocket (if that's what they are showing), look like a soviet rocket?
    If those bunkers were for space technology, then why were the openings cut in the shape for airplanes?

    That show sounds like utter nonsense which means it should be amusing to see what they come up with.

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    Quote Originally Posted by YogoslavianSpace View Post
    Upcoming Slovenian 2013 docudrama "Houston We Have a Problem" will reveal one of the biggest secrets of space race during cold war - Yugoslavian space program and it's crucial impact to USA effort to catch the USSR in the Space Race.

    ....
    According to the documentary, the origins of the Yugoslav space programme lay in the writings and work of Herman Potocnik, whose 1929 book Problem Voznje po Vesolju (The Problem of Space Travel) inspired former Nazi and architect of the American space program Wernher von Braun.
    What America did not get their hands on were other writings and drawings by Potocnik, and these were found by Tito's secret service in 1947, and they played an important part in the Yugoslav space programme, which was started in 1948...

    Hi YS

    I wonder why the labels from Potocnik's drawings (as shown in the trailer) are in german. German know-how was quite efficiently harvested by the Americans and Russians, so how comes both overlooked a book I found at the library.
    This trailer appears to be, now that area 51 secret's have run out of novelty, the attempt to find a new area on european soil.

    Ex
    Last edited by Jim; 2012-Jan-12 at 05:41 PM. Reason: fixed tags

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    The Apollo Program sold to us from the nation that gave the world that engineering marvel called the Yugo?

    Of, course with Photoshop all things look possible. (until you look closer)


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    I'm calling Forgotten Silver on this "documentary".
    The dog, the dog, he's at it again!

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    YogoslavianSpace

    First, welcome to BAUT.

    Second, I've deleted your duplicate thread. As part of our anti-spam measures, posts from newbies don't appear until approved by a moderator, which can sometimes take some time; please be patient.

    Third, and most important, we need to know what your intent is in starting this thread. If you are just advertising this movie - that is not allowed on BAUT. Do you agree with the conspiracy theory (CT) presented in this movie; are you advocating this idea? If you are, I very strongly suggest you read our advice for CT supporters and our rules, you will be expected to follow them. As an advocate of a CT you are expected to present evidence for it (and not just a bunch of links to YouTube videos) and answer all questions put to you.

    If you are just asking about the movie, then you need to make clear exactly what your questions are.

    Failure to follow this will result in actions by the moderators.

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    So if Yugoslavia -- a country not previously recognized as an engineering powerhouse -- sold the United States a "complete" space program, then why did it take so many years of development to build it? One of the key evidences, in any other case, that something has been bought and paid for (rather than invented) is that it suddenly springs into fruition without any clear history. American academic journals from 1959 up through 1975 are replete with the history of the U.S. space program development. Many engineers today can recount in great deal what they did to invent their portion of the Apollo technology.

    You also have to consider that 1961 was not the genesis of the Apollo idea. It actually started back in 1959 under the Eisenhower administration, and by 1961 much of the system design was already on paper. Kennedy, in 1961, merely gave it a new and ambitious goal. That makes it hard to argue that Yugoslavia sold the United States a space program two years after it had already begun development. When you set out to tell the "secret" story of something, you can't rely on the popular misconception of its timeline to provide the backbone of your story. You have to deal with the actual timeline as historians see it.

    I agree: It's far more likely to be a tongue-in-cheek treatment.

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    DOKweb lists it as a "mockumentary":
    http://www.dokweb.net/en/documentary...problem!-6026/
    Of course, this won't stop some people from taking it at face value.

    The rocket at 2:40 is cleary a Soyuz. Also, are these blurred-out copyright watermarks that I'm seeing here and there (around 2:55 for example)?
    (English is not my first language, so please excuse any mistakes and unintended ambiguities.)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerstab View Post
    DOKweb lists it as a "mockumentary":
    http://www.dokweb.net/en/documentary...problem!-6026/
    Of course, this won't stop some people from taking it at face value.

    The rocket at 2:40 is cleary a Soyuz. Also, are these blurred-out copyright watermarks that I'm seeing here and there (around 2:55 for example)?
    The first word is definitely "Copright", but I can't make out the rest.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerstab View Post
    DOKweb lists it as a "mockumentary":
    http://www.dokweb.net/en/documentary...problem!-6026/
    Of course, this won't stop some people from taking it at face value.
    I think one of my friends from high school did; she posted a reference to this on Facebook. I didn't read it, because I try not to argue conspiracy theories on Facebook beyond insisting various friends get proper medical treatment for their kids, but I'm pretty sure it was a statement about how everyone should know about this.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

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    The video has jumped from 90 000 views yesterday to 400 000 views today. There are threads similar to this one on other forums, including places like ATS. Clearly someone's self-promotion/"viral" campaign at work. As usually, reading (some of) the comments on YouTube can make you lose hope for humanity.
    (English is not my first language, so please excuse any mistakes and unintended ambiguities.)

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    Am I the only one who is sick and tired of hearing/reading the phrase, "Houston, we have a problem?"
    I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa

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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerstab View Post
    The video has jumped from 90 000 views yesterday to 400 000 views today. There are threads similar to this one on other forums, including places like ATS. Clearly someone's self-promotion/"viral" campaign at work. As usually, reading (some of) the comments on YouTube can make you lose hope for humanity.
    Especially when they all have to be approved by the poster.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    Am I the only one who is sick and tired of hearing/reading the phrase, "Houston, we have a problem?"
    I'm fairly tired of it too, unless I'm actually watching the Tom Hanks movie. Then the phrase is okay.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    Am I the only one who is sick and tired of hearing/reading the phrase, "Houston, we have a problem?"
    Given that I'm sitting here waiting for my flight from College Station to Houston, I would really hate to hear that phrase now.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Daggerstab View Post
    The video has jumped from 90 000 views yesterday to 400 000 views today. There are threads similar to this one on other forums, including places like ATS. Clearly someone's self-promotion/"viral" campaign at work.
    Indeed. I think this thread is a hit-and-run.

    As usually, reading (some of) the comments on YouTube can make you lose hope for humanity.
    Reading YouTube comments should be considered approximately as hazardous to your sanity as sharing a jail cell with Gilbert Gottfried and [insert name of your least favorite politician].
    Last edited by JayUtah; 2012-Jan-12 at 05:52 PM. Reason: erase sentence fragment.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelHS View Post
    I'm fairly tired of it too, unless I'm actually watching the Tom Hanks movie. Then the phrase is okay.
    Same.

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    The Yugoslavians make some good guns, but they are copies of German and Russian designs....other than that??? There is Serbska Slivovika, which qualfies as "rocket fuel!!" Just try to drink a glassful of two, and you will see what I mean!!

    Dale

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extravoice View Post
    Am I the only one who is sick and tired of hearing/reading the phrase, "Houston, we have a problem?"
    I live in Houston and the news media loves that phrase. It is always [fill in the blank] we have a problem. SO YES I AM SICK OF THE PHRASE.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Space Chimp View Post
    The Apollo Program sold to us from the nation that gave the world that engineering marvel called the Yugo?
    Hey, don't diss the Yugo. It's too easy a target.

    But, it makes sense. If all the Yugoslavian engineers were busy on their space program...
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    Quote Originally Posted by Extracelestial View Post
    I wonder why the labels from Potocnik's drawings (as shown in the trailer) are in german.
    Because his published book was written in German: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Potočnik
    Plus, don't you think that his drawing shown in the trailer resembles this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...ce_station.jpg ?

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Why would the US buy Yugoslavian technology in 1960
    Actually, that's possible. Not the complete Apollo program of course, but a US-Yugoslavia transaction involving rocket technology would not be impossible.

    You have to remeber that Tito broke up with Stalin, thus Yugoslavia, while remaining a communist country, was not a member of the Warsaw Pact. So Tito, having not-quite-hostile NATO (Italy) on one side, and not-quite-friendly Warsaw Pact (Romania and Hungary) on the other side, would be naturally tempted to do something do assert Yugoslavian sovereignity to both sides... Like, say, build an IRBM. On the other hand, neither USA nor USSR wanted unaligned actors to develop missiles. With that in mind, the following hypothetical scenario is possible: (1) Tito starts building missiles; (2) the US bribes him to cancel the project; (3) a cover story about selling some spaceflight technology to US is produced, possibly involving an actual sale of some generally unneeded equipment.

    There's one particular reason why I think that Yugoslavian rocket program would be possible: Poland had a program for building solid fueled meteorological rockets ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Meteor_(rocket) ), which started in 1958 and has been abruptly rapidly cancelled in 1974. (It is commonly believed that the cancellation was due to Soviet pressure). The 1970 test flights achieved 90km of altitude, ie. close to the Karman line. Thus, it was not somehing Yugoslavian engineers couldn't do. Manned spaceflight, of course, would be a completely different story.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Because his published book was written in German: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herman_Potočnik
    Plus, don't you think that his drawing shown in the trailer resembles this one: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:No...ce_station.jpg ?
    True - in both cases. However, this is not the point here:

    #1 in the trailer it is claimed that these documents (along with the german labelled sketch) is part of a "secret, unpublished" diary. Lucky coincidence that I stumbled on the "secret" drawing in my hometown library.
    #2 secret yugoslavian documents beings written in german are highly unusual to say the least. After all Apollo manuals and drawings despite being derived from german rocketry are written in english.

    Ex

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    Quote Originally Posted by Extracelestial View Post
    True - in both cases. However, this is not the point here:

    #2 secret yugoslavian documents beings written in german are highly unusual to say the least. After all Apollo manuals and drawings despite being derived from german rocketry are written in english.

    Ex

    Some republics of Yugoslavia were under monarchy of Austrian/Hungary for few hundred years.
    As other Austrian people, we had to speak German language.
    We were obliged to do it in school as primary language so don't be so surprised that some documents were written in german.
    Unlike most of US citizen, in Europe and/or especially in Balkan everybody speak at least one foreign language. In former Yugoslavia, Serbo-Croate was official language but there were two other completely different language in Slovenia & Macedonia just as in Swiss with German, Italian & French official language.

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    OK

    What about the Yugoslavian space program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by John Jones View Post
    OK
    What about the Yugoslavian space program?
    It is highly possible that is true. Of course I do not pretend that the program was complete but even like that i could make some progress on US space program.

    When China buys something, let say METRO, they also buy technologies transfer. So they can easy understand & replicate it without expensive research & development. US are not dumber compare to China & US enterprise use similar method to obtain technologies: Google bought few thousand telecom licenses from Motorola.

    After 2nd World War, the most priority projects were on military domain. A YU engineer has developed everything needed for military airplanes. It is well known that a lot of researches were spending on IRBM missiles. Space program is just between these two domains.

    A lot of people see Yugoslavia like a country completely devastated and in ruin. It's now true & it's starts to fall apart since TITO's death in 1980 but after WW2 Yugoslavia was pretty strong especially military & a lot of money went to R&D in order to insure high technologies military level.

    "nation that gave the world that engineering marvel called the Yugo"
    Yes Yugo came from Yugoslavia. I agree that were bad car but commercially it was a big success. Few hundred thousand were sold in US & other country. For us (Yugoslavian) it was only a way to obtain a lot of $ for extremely cheap car. At that time US market needed a car like that one so they imported it.
    Letís compare it again with China: The whole world buy cheap products Made in China and everyone know that is bad quality but for China it's a source of money, a lot of money.

    Around that secret base (Object 505, ZELJAVA, http://www.zeljava-lybi.com/Zeljava-index2_eng.html ) 15 or 20km were well protected by police. It was just enough to stop a car for 2 min & police will chase you rapidly out. Everybody knows something happens there but nobody was enough stupid to ask too much questions.

    Naturally protected walleye by High Mountain it was perfect place to test a lot of weapons & aircraft hidden from radars beams.

    By the way, during 1st war in Iraq, UN sent some Yugoslav troops and tanks there. Our tanks had a good reputation because they hadnít problems with sand in Iraq desert. Oh, I forget, a few Saddam's anti-atomic bunkers were made by.... Yugoslavian engineers. During NATO strike on Yugoslavia in 1999, YU army just shut down US stealth bomber F117. For radars operators he was not stealth enough... so they shut him down. It was very first loose of stealth plane.
    Oh, by the way Russian bought the F117 wreckage from YU army. It was in good shape for reverse engineering.

    http://www.f-117a.com/Vega31/Vega31-5.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-117_Nighthawk (under section combat loose)

    Only US air force has stealth technologies but YU army had technologies to see that invisible airplane.
    It was done with improved (by YU engineerís ;-) very old Russian radar and missile SA3 from 1961!

    Do not forget that Nicolas TESLA was Yugoslav and even 70 years after his death US still try to decrypt his personal notes about his work.
    Radio wave is TESLA (patent accorded later to MARCONI), a lot of TESLA research were accorded to THOMSON (~700 patent)

    Briefly, I do believe that some kind of YU space existed.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsav View Post
    It is highly possible that is true. Of course I do not pretend that the program was complete but even like that i could make some progress on US space program.

    When China buys something, let say METRO, they also buy technologies transfer. So they can easy understand & replicate it without expensive research & development. US are not dumber compare to China & US enterprise use similar method to obtain technologies: Google bought few thousand telecom licenses from Motorola.
    Both of which are American companies.


    After 2nd World War, the most priority projects were on military domain. A YU engineer has developed everything needed for military airplanes. It is well known that a lot of researches were spending on IRBM missiles. Space program is just between these two domains.

    A lot of people see Yugoslavia like a country completely devastated and in ruin. It's now true & it's starts to fall apart since TITO's death in 1980 but after WW2 Yugoslavia was pretty strong especially military & a lot of money went to R&D in order to insure high technologies military level.

    "nation that gave the world that engineering marvel called the Yugo"
    Yes Yugo came from Yugoslavia. I agree that were bad car but commercially it was a big success. Few hundred thousand were sold in US & other country. For us (Yugoslavian) it was only a way to obtain a lot of $ for extremely cheap car. At that time US market needed a car like that one so they imported it.
    Let’s compare it again with China: The whole world buy cheap products Made in China and everyone know that is bad quality but for China it's a source of money, a lot of money.

    Around that secret base (Object 505, ZELJAVA, http://www.zeljava-lybi.com/Zeljava-index2_eng.html ) 15 or 20km were well protected by police. It was just enough to stop a car for 2 min & police will chase you rapidly out. Everybody knows something happens there but nobody was enough stupid to ask too much questions.

    Naturally protected walleye by High Mountain it was perfect place to test a lot of weapons & aircraft hidden from radars beams.

    By the way, during 1st war in Iraq, UN sent some Yugoslav troops and tanks there. Our tanks had a good reputation because they hadn’t problems with sand in Iraq desert. Oh, I forget, a few Saddam's anti-atomic bunkers were made by.... Yugoslavian engineers. During NATO strike on Yugoslavia in 1999, YU army just shut down US stealth bomber F117. For radars operators he was not stealth enough... so they shut him down. It was very first loose of stealth plane.
    It's bomb bay doors were open, it was no longer a stealth aircraft.

    Oh, by the way Russian bought the F117 wreckage from YU army. It was in good shape for reverse engineering.
    Why didn't they reverse engineer it themselves? Seems all their technology comes from the Soviets.

    http://www.f-117a.com/Vega31/Vega31-5.html
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lockheed_F-117_Nighthawk (under section combat loose)

    Only US air force has stealth technologies but YU army had technologies to see that invisible airplane.
    It was done with improved (by YU engineer’s ;-) very old Russian radar and missile SA3 from 1961!

    Do not forget that Nicolas TESLA was Yugoslav and even 70 years after his death US still try to decrypt his personal notes about his work.
    Radio wave is TESLA (patent accorded later to MARCONI), a lot of TESLA research were accorded to THOMSON (~700 patent)
    This is all very patriotic and stuff, but in what way does this support the claim that Yugos built Apollo hardware for the US?

    Briefly, I do believe that some kind of YU space existed.
    If it was so advanced, why was it so brief? And where is the evidence of said program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsav View Post
    It is highly possible that is true....
    All of that post may be true and/or believable.
    But; I don't see how any of that implies that a space program existed.

    All it means is that they had technology that could have enabled a program.

    So; Even if they did have a space program, what evidence do we have that says thier technology was valuable enough for the US that they would want to buy out the program?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Bobbar View Post
    Both of which are American companies.

    It's bomb bay doors were open, it was no longer a stealth aircraft.

    Why didn't they reverse engineer it themselves? Seems all their technology comes from the Soviets.

    This is all very patriotic and stuff, but in what way does this support the claim that Yugos built Apollo hardware for the US?

    If it was so advanced, why was it so brief? And where is the evidence of said program?
    Hi Bobbar

    I'll try to answers rapidly (Lunch time pause is to short :-)).

    Yes both are Americans company. It was only one example how to avoid very expensive R&D. Just buy work & license from others. Motorola spent nearly 30 years in R&D on cell mobile telecom solutions. It's much easier to obtain knowledge in that way isn't it?

    Among many theory, the evidence is that's hi were shut down.

    As I said Yugoslavia falls apart since early '80. You know, when whole NATO (more than 19 country) leading by US, the first military power drop the bombs all over you, you have much more important thing to do to protect yourself, so in not a quite good time for reverse engineering don't you think?
    So they just grab the wreckage which is sold to Russia (some said some parts went to China to) as high as possible.

    It's is not only patriotic it's a fact. Some other nations have the knowledge, technologies & great people to do some great things. Look, in France, there is already 9 or 10 full face transplantation's (lips, nose , mouth...). The first one was in 2004. The very first one in America was only in on 05.09.2011 & guesses what? The surgeon is from Czech Republic (Bohdan Pomahač). He went to Czech public university until he accepted a lot of money & work in America.
    So what happens? America bought the great man & great brain to! It's pretty similar about to YU space program. We talk about America bought the program, ideas & some solutions not completely APPOLO rocket.

    Herman Potocnik will release the whole film at the end of 2012. So we will have more information's in order to determine was it true or not.
    About truth, there is a lot of theory on the NET that says the man on the moon is a simple Hoax & it can’t be true, so as you said : "It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."
    Last edited by tomsav; 2012-Jan-20 at 09:47 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tomsav View Post
    Hi Bobbar

    I'll try to to answers rapidly (Lunch time pause is to short :-)).

    Yes both are Americans company. It was only one example how to avoid very expensive R&D. Just buy work & license from others. Motorola spent nearly 30 years in R&D on cell mobile telecom solutions. It's much easier to obtain knowledge in that way isn't it?
    I think it has less to do with obtaining knowledge, and more to do with business strategy.

    Among many theory, the evidence is that's hi were shut down.

    As I said Yugoslavia falls apart since early '80. You know, when whole NATO (more than 19 country) leading by US, the first military power drop the bombs all over you, you have much more important thing to do to protect yourself, so in not a quite good time for reverse engineering don't you think?
    So they just grab the wreckage which is sold to Russia (some said some parts went to China to) as high as possible.
    Not that much of an accomplishment, In my opinion. How was this even relevant in the first place?

    It's is not only patriotic it's a fact. Some other nations have the knowledge, technologies & great people to do some great things. Look, in France, there is already 9 or 10 full face transplantation's (lips, nose , mouth...). The first one was in 2004. The very first one in America was only in on 05.09.2011 & guesses what? The surgeon is from Czech Republic (Bohdan Pomahač). He went to Czech public university until he accepted a lot of money & work in America.
    So what happens? America bought the great man & great brain to! It's pretty similar about to YU space program. We talk about America bought the program, ideas & some solutions not completely APPOLO rocket.
    I'm sure the US didn't actively seek surgeons, specializing in face transplants, for 'purchase'. It seems more likely that the doctors moved to a place they felt they would have better opportunities to practice.

    Herman Potocnik will release the whole film at the end of 2012. So we will have more information's in order to determine was it true or not.
    Well, it had better have about 100% more evidence. You must understand peoples skepticism. The notion that NASA imported technology from communist Yugoslavia is pretty far fetched.

    About truth, there is a lot of theory on the NET that says the man on the moon is a simple Hoax & it canít be true, so as you said : "It pays to keep an open mind, but not so open your brains fall out."
    Carl Sagan said that, not me.

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