[Swappable cars]

[IsaacKuo]

Swappable batteries have got to be the way to go

IMHO the solution isn't swappable batteries, it's swappable cars. If you want to go further than your car's charge will allow, you arrange to borrow or rent one or more cars so you switch from one vehicle to another as necessary for greater range. This is based on the old idea of swapping horses to deliver letters at breakneck speed.

This arrangement could be done via a social networking app, or it could be done through a big name car rental service, or a combination. It depends on your level of trust and tradeoff between service/accountability vs price.

[Extravoice]

I'm not sure if swappable cars would catch-on as a mainstream idea. It might work for very long trips (we rented a vehicle for 1000+ vacation trip), but it seems like it would be too much of a hassle in planning and coordination for something like a 100 mile trip.

People place a lot of value on convenience and flexibility. I'll cite the number of people who own pickup trucks, but rarely need the bed. They could fairly easily rent a truck for those times they really need to haul stuff around, but choose to own a truck.

I'm not saying swappable cars couldn't happen, just that there would have to be a significant mindset change for it to work.

[danscope]

"You" are responsible for your own personal car. It's cleanliness and material condition are your domain and cannot be left to chance at the hands of myriad strangers. But good modular batteries which are basically leased from a
grand , common source is not only practical, but desirable. Remember the original Volkswagen. The inherent beauty of it was the fact that you could swap out the motor with 4 bolts and sling in another , even a rental motor while your original was rebuilt and restore the motor as quickly. A battery swap can be done in 5 minutes technically.
You simply need enough good batteries available along with adequate charging stations.

" It--------could---------work!!! " Young Doctor Frankenstein

[IsaacKuo]

I'm not sure if swappable cars would catch-on as a mainstream idea.

Car rental already exists. Taxi cabs already exist. The missing link is an app to make it practical to combine the best of both in an on-demand short term car rental service.

It might work for very long trips (we rented a vehicle for 1000+ vacation trip), but it seems like it would be too much of a hassle in planning and coordination for something like a 100 mile trip.

The car rental service could plan and coordinate all of it. You simply enter your start and end destination to your smartphone's GPS app--but unlike today's GPS app this one gives you the option of buying end-to-end on demand rental/taxi cab service.

As far as you are concerned, it's just like using any GPS navigation app. But behind the scenes, the app is lining up on-demand car rental at a rental station within range--and lining up on-demand short term car rental at a string of stations if multiple legs are necessary.

[IsaacKuo]

"You" are responsible for your own personal car. It's cleanliness and material condition are your domain and cannot be left to chance at the hands of myriad strangers.

If you don't want to share your car, then don't share it. If you own it, it's your property.

But owning a car doesn't preclude you from using a car rental service on a vacation, or using a taxi service to get to/from the airport. Owning a car wouldn't preclude you from using an on-demand short term car rental service either.

You would not be under any obligation to rent out your car. But the beauty of a well designed socially networked app is that it could give you the option to rent out your car sometimes for some extra income.

[NEOWatcher]

You would not be under any obligation to rent out your car. But the beauty of a well designed socially networked app is that it could give you the option to rent out your car sometimes for some extra income.

It would have to be extremely well designed.
Firms like Megabus, Greyhound*, Uhaul and many others exist because they can handle one-way trips. I doubt you will find people that will be willing to "lose" thier car until the agent can arrange a return trip.

Sure, I can rent out my car for local use, but at that point, you might as well have a standard rental company do all the work and liability.
How do I get my car to the renter and back (or renter to the car)?
How can I guarantee it's condition on return? Even if it's covered, what inconveniences does that introduce?

Sure; there will be people willing to do this, but I doubt it's going to be enough to justify an infrastructure and guarantee availability.

If it's rental companies offering the service, then they have to have more stock to handle the one way rentals. This relates to inventory costs.

If I'm on a trip, I'm not going to spend the time to transfer my luggage, kids (if any), snacks, maps/gps, sunglasses, cd's, adjust seats mirrors, or any other minutia that comes with a long trip every hour and a half.

I'm convinced battery swap is the way to go.


*Anecdote:
I was once in charge of a charter trip to do a marathon run across nearly half the country. It invlolved swapping drivers in various cities. Each swap had problems with schedules and driver familiarity. At our destination, everything ran smoothly for our stay. On the return trip, we had the worst possible buses because they didn't want to give up their good equipment. It was the trip from <expletive>. It was so bad that we were able to get a hefty portion of the cost refunded.

[IsaacKuo]

It would have to be extremely well designed.
Firms like Megabus, Greyhound*, Uhaul and many others exist because they can handle one-way trips. I doubt you will find people that will be willing to "lose" thier car until the agent can arrange a return trip.

One option is if the car can drive itself back (Google is working on this, among others).

Another option is to only allow the "away" trip to be booked if it is matched with a corresponding reverse trip.

Another option is the fallback option of a taxi ride. The renter can agree to pay for a taxi ride to the nearest rentable car if your car isn't returned in time. Thus, the renter takes on some risk and responsibility.

Sure; there will be people willing to do this, but I doubt it's going to be enough to justify an infrastructure and guarantee availability.

A big name rental service already has a nationwide infrastructure and can thus guarantee availability.

The smartphone app option is an alternative which requires no infrastructure but does not guarantee availability.

If it's rental companies offering the service, then they have to have more stock to handle the one way rentals. This relates to inventory costs.

They would love to have the extra business. Their profits are limited by the level of demand.

If I'm on a trip, I'm not going to spend the time to transfer my luggage, kids (if any), snacks, maps/gps, sunglasses, cd's, adjust seats mirrors, or any other minutia that comes with a long trip every hour and a half.

I'm convinced battery swap is the way to go.

If you're on a trip with kids and all that, you have the option to rent a big gas guzzling van. Sure, it will cost more, but these things already exist and they work.

But is battery swap practical for such large and heavy vehicles? You would need heavy machinery to lift and move around the batteries. This is much more infrastructure than what's required to simply plug in your vehicle to recharge, not to mention the safety issues involved in slinging around these heavy batteries near child occupied vehicles. These aren't double-A's we're talking about, here.

[danscope]

It's called a dedicated fork lift. And this way, the battery gets recycled at the local factory before it's performance curve deteriorates, and it makes local jobs. Sounds like a win-win to me.
And as far as sharing cars, I have a severe allergy to dogs. I like them but my person reacts badly.
So....keep your own car and your dogs.

Dan

[NEOWatcher]

One option is if the car can drive itself back (Google is working on this, among others).

Doable, but I doubt it will be any time soon. At least not before or during the acceptance of electric vehicles.

Another option is to only allow the "away" trip to be booked if it is matched with a corresponding reverse trip.
Another option is the fallback option of a taxi ride.
A big name rental service already has a nationwide infrastructure and can thus guarantee availability.

So; why not the status quo of rentals?

The smartphone app option is an alternative which requires no infrastructure but does not guarantee availability.
The renter can agree to pay for a taxi ride to the nearest rentable car if your car isn't returned in time. Thus, the renter takes on some risk and responsibility.

Yep, that's going to limit the interest.

Oh; By the way. Remember Rent-A-Wreck? They used to rent out well used vehicles. The liability almost put them out of business. Now they rent more recent vehicles. That should be a clue about the pitfalls of renting out personal vehicles.

If you're on a trip with kids and all that, you have the option to rent a big gas guzzling van. Sure, it will cost more, but these things already exist and they work.

No; Someone with kid (all it takes is one) and a trunk full of "stuff" will not need a "big gas guzzling van", a compact or midsize will do. That statement just goes to show how slanted you want to make the situation to fit your argument.
Even without kids, it's a hassle. I recently took a 700 mile(each way) trip (BTW: Compact car). I look back at all the stuff I had just for myself, and just hate to think of trying to find all those little items that aren't in one neat package (loose change, pack of kleenex, sunglasses, GPS, Phone charger cord, suitcase, cooler, umbrella, etc.).

But is battery swap practical for such large and heavy vehicles? You would need heavy machinery to lift and move around the batteries. This is much more infrastructure than what's required to simply plug in your vehicle to recharge

But we are not talking about recharging your own car.*

not to mention the safety issues involved in slinging around these heavy batteries near child occupied vehicles.

Oh; come now. You pull in, get out of the car (to a safe distance) and get in when they're done. What's the problem?
Go to any garage, and you're not allowed inside. Besides, think of the extra business for the mini-mart.

Once there is a standard battery pack (or limited number) it's going to be standard equipment with standard procedures and easy access designed for it.

ETA: By the way, do you think this will do away with the incentive for a business to offer battery swap? There's still going to be plenty of a market for people that would want this alternative.


*another analogy:
This weekend I was visiting at the hospital. They had a series of recharging stations in the parking lot. Were they reserved? No. There were all sorts of other vehicles parked in them. If they are being nice to provide them, they should make them accessible, and do some kind of enforcement. They do enforce the "compact only" spaces, so why not the "electric only" ones?

[Jerry]

Swapping cars works to varying degrees in Portland, now. There is also work progressing on refills of electrolyte - batteries designed in a non-depleated way that I don't understand.

[IsaacKuo]

Doable, but I doubt it will be any time soon. At least not before or during the acceptance of electric vehicles.

I'll bet it's done before a nationwide battery swapping infrastructure is implemented.

So; why not the status quo of rentals?

What I describe is an augmentation of car rentals, rather than a replacement. The key thing that's needed is integration of car rental and taxi cab services into the smart phone GPS app. The user wouldn't need to go through the trouble of calling a taxi service or car rental service or shopping around for the nearest/fastest/cheapest option. The app could figure all of that out for the user, and all of the coordination is done in the back end for the user.

The key is to make it easy and fast to utilize what's already out there rather than require a whole new infrastructure.

Yep, that's going to limit the interest.

Yes, it will be limited to people who want or need to save the money.

Oh; By the way. Remember Rent-A-Wreck? They used to rent out well used vehicles. The liability almost put them out of business. Now they rent more recent vehicles. That should be a clue about the pitfalls of renting out personal vehicles.

This does not seem relevant.

No; Someone with kid (all it takes is one) and a trunk full of "stuff" will not need a "big gas guzzling van", a compact or midsize will do. That statement just goes to show how slanted you want to make the situation to fit your argument.

What is the big difference that one kid causes? Anyway, if you want to rent a compact or midsize gasoline car, you still have that option also. My point is that you can get what fits your needs at the time. It's on demand, short term.

But we are not talking about recharging your own car.*

Huh? So what?

Oh; come now. You pull in, get out of the car (to a safe distance) and get in when they're done. What's the problem?
Go to any garage, and you're not allowed inside. Besides, think of the extra business for the mini-mart.

The problem is that you've got to get the kids in and out of the car seats, get the stroller(s) out if necessary, get the kids to the waiting area, etc...and I thought this was the hassle you were trying to avoid.

But given your comments here, it seems that you don't think that's such a big deal, you're just concerned about dealing with luggage transfer. Which to me is odd, since luggage would be a lot lighter than batteries and could be transfered quickly by hand if you properly packed.

And if you don't feel like properly packing? Like I said, you have the option to rent a gasoline car if you want.

Once there is a standard battery pack (or limited number) it's going to be standard equipment with standard procedures and easy access designed for it.

Which might be great for garage shops, who will like the extra business. Will consumers like having to wait in service stations for the battery swap? Will consumers like a return to full service station prices?

Compare the operational efficiency of a 10-minute oil change service with the operational efficiency of a self service gas station. Or compare the operational efficiency of a car wash service where you need to get out of the car with the operational efficiency of a fully automated car wash machine. If you need physical separation between the work area and the customers, then that kills the convenience argument for battery swaps.

In contrast, car swapping just needs a parking lot, ideally with charging spaces. You just park, go to the next car, and go. It's no more or less dangerous than any other parking lot.

ETA: By the way, do you think this will do away with the incentive for a business to offer battery swap? There's still going to be plenty of a market for people that would want this alternative.

If the battery swap is more like an express oil change than filling up your own tank of gas, then I don't think it would be enough. People will mostly just stick with gasoline cars and plug-in hybrids. You wouldn't have the high market demand necessary to justify an extensive battery swap infrastructure.

In contrast, the options I describe don't require an extensive infrastructure to start using. So, even though the demand may be limited it would be enough to kick things off.

[NEOWatcher]

I'll bet it's done before a nationwide battery swapping infrastructure is implemented.

That's a matter of opinion, and I don't think it really matters on the subject of people loaning out thier cars for others.

What I describe is an augmentation of car rentals, rather than a replacement. The key thing that's needed is integration of car rental and taxi cab services into the smart phone GPS app. The user wouldn't need to go through the trouble of calling a taxi service or car rental service or shopping around for the nearest/fastest/cheapest option. The app could figure all of that out for the user, and all of the coordination is done in the back end for the user.
The key is to make it easy and fast to utilize what's already out there rather than require a whole new infrastructure.

That can be done without people loaning out thier cars.

Yes, it will be limited to people who want or need to save the money.

Who is saving what money?

This does not seem relevant.

Then you don't understand the problems of liability and not having a system in place for offering a potentially dangerous complex item to other people.

What is the big difference that one kid causes? Anyway, if you want to rent a compact or midsize gasoline car, you still have that option also. My point is that you can get what fits your needs at the time. It's on demand, short term.

How did we go from long trips to short term?
And why do you keep focusing on my comment about kids when I mentioned so much more?

Huh? So what?

So I'm pointing out that you are obfuscating the conversation with irrelevent arguments.

The problem is that you've got to get the kids in and out of the car seats, get the stroller(s) out if necessary, get the kids to the waiting area, etc...and I thought this was the hassle you were trying to avoid.

And can leave the car seat, diaper bag, spare clothes, toys, snacks and other things in it.
I didn't say it would eliminate it, but it does reduce it.

But given your comments here, it seems that you don't think that's such a big deal, you're just concerned about dealing with luggage transfer. Which to me is odd, since luggage would be a lot lighter than batteries and could be transfered quickly by hand if you properly packed.

Apparently you're not getting the picture by putting aside all the items that I have mentioned.

And if you don't feel like properly packing? Like I said, you have the option to rent a gasoline car if you want.

And with battery replacement you can avoid both.

Which might be great for garage shops, who will like the extra business. Will consumers like having to wait in service stations for the battery swap? Will consumers like a return to full service station prices?

How long do you think the wait will be? Designed properly, it's a quick swap.

Compare the operational efficiency of a 10-minute oil change service with the operational efficiency of a self service gas station.

Wow, I can get an oil change at a self service gas station?

Or compare the operational efficiency of a car wash service where you need to get out of the car with the operational efficiency of a fully automated car wash machine.

Yet I see plenty of both around.

If you need physical separation between the work area and the customers, then that kills the convenience argument for battery swaps.

Compared to having to move everything from one car to another, I'll take the option of getting out of my car and watching.

In contrast, car swapping just needs a parking lot, ideally with charging spaces. You just park, go to the next car, and go. It's no more or less dangerous than any other parking lot.

Ideally, yes.

If the battery swap is more like an express oil change than filling up your own tank of gas, then I don't think it would be enough. People will mostly just stick with gasoline cars and plug-in hybrids. You wouldn't have the high market demand necessary to justify an extensive battery swap infrastructure.

Again, we were talking about car swapping vs battery swapping. Not battery swapping vs fill ups.

In contrast, the options I describe don't require an extensive infrastructure to start using. So, even though the demand may be limited it would be enough to kick things off.

I'm not saying it can't or won't work, all I'm saying is that for the reasons I give, that battery swap would be more pallatable to more people.

And; instead of using privately owned cars, it can be done with rental chains or franchises with a lot less hassle and risk to both the driver and the business.

Certainly for city dwellers who rarely drive, this would be an excellent alternative. But for those who use thier car daily, I don't think it would be easily accepted.

Why are you against battery swapping?
I'm not against the ideas that you present. I'm only against your stand that we shouldn't have battery swapping available. It's not a mutually exclusive decision.

[IsaacKuo]

That's a matter of opinion, and I don't think it really matters on the subject of people loaning out thier cars for others.
[...]
That can be done without people loaning out thier cars.

You seem to think that swapping cars is a distinct idea from on demand short term car rental, but it actually isn't. I explicitly give the example of on demand short term car rental as an implementation of swapping cars instead of swapping batteries.

I give the example of renting from other individual car owners as another way to implement swapping cars.

Who is saving what money?

The car owner saves money by earning a little extra income. The renter saves money compared to renting from a big name car rental service. These sorts of arrangements are actually very common in real life, among those who need the money.

Then you don't understand the problems of liability and not having a system in place for offering a potentially dangerous complex item to other people.

I understand what people who are strapped for money or are willing to accept some risk can and will do.

How did we go from long trips to short term?

The original idea was to rent multiple electric cars to make a long trip. Each rental might only last a couple hours. This is a very short term rental, compared to traditional car rental services. It's more like the time frame of a taxi cab ride.

And why do you keep focusing on my comment about kids when I mentioned so much more?

It seemed important to you. It seems to continue to be important to you.

So I'm pointing out that you are obfuscating the conversation with irrelevent arguments.


And can leave the car seat, diaper bag, spare clothes, toys, snacks and other things in it.
I didn't say it would eliminate it, but it does reduce it.


Apparently you're not getting the picture by putting aside all the items that I have mentioned.

The picture I get is that these complications may make it worth renting a gasoline car or van rather than electrics.

And with battery replacement you can avoid both.

How long do you think the wait will be? Designed properly, it's a quick swap.

I imagine the wait would typically be somewhere in the range of fifteen minutes to an hour, depending on how many people are ahead of you and how many slots the garage has, and how efficient their operations are. They have to drive the vehicle from where you leave it to the garage. Then they have to lift out something as heavy as an engine block, and put it somewhere. Then they have to drop in a replacement as heavy as an engine block. Then they have to drive it out of the garage to a place where you can receive the serviced vehicle.

Wow, I can get an oil change at a self service gas station?


Yet I see plenty of both around.

Fortunately you only need to get your car washed every once in a while. You can go years between car washes if there isn't a convenient time. But you might need several battery swaps in a single trip!

Again, we were talking about car swapping vs battery swapping. Not battery swapping vs fill ups.

That's what battery swapping is competing against, whether you like it or not. Battery swapping will only work on a large scale if there's an extensive nationwide network of them.

Car swapping, in contrast, uses an existing infrastructure of car rental services. The missing link is a GPS integrated app.

I'm not saying it can't or won't work, all I'm saying is that for the reasons I give, that battery swap would be more pallatable to more people.

And; instead of using privately owned cars, it can be done with rental chains or franchises with a lot less hassle and risk to both the driver and the business.

You're not getting that car rental is car swapping.

Certainly for city dwellers who rarely drive, this would be an excellent alternative. But for those who use thier car daily, I don't think it would be easily accepted.

Why are you against battery swapping?
I'm not against the ideas that you present. I'm only against your stand that we shouldn't have battery swapping available. It's not a mutually exclusive decision.

The problem with battery swapping, as I see it, is that it requires a massive investment in a new national infrastructure to work. This is similar to the problem of hydrogen cars.

It also has some practical problems, which ultimately stem from the fact that the battery pack is easily the heaviest and most expensive component of the car. If batteries were lighter, they could be easily swapped manually by the users.

[Van Rijn]

It also has some practical problems, which ultimately stem from the fact that the battery pack is easily the heaviest and most expensive component of the car. If batteries were lighter, they could be easily swapped manually by the users.

Not necessarily - in my very conventional car, swapping the battery isn't easy. You have to remove a cross support and the battery has to be wrestled into place. Even if the battery weighed a pound it would only be marginally easier. Easy access batteries limit design flexibility, an even bigger issue with a car with a large battery pack or multiple battery packs

[Swift]

This discussion was spun off the Electric Leaf thread

[JCoyote]

It is a really simple thing to design quick swappable batteries. Just look at any contemporary cell phone. Or even a flashlight! A sequential string of modular batteries is a better solution for intermediate demands between standard battery sizes. Muscle power isn't a huge requirement here. Have you ever seen a palate jack? That could handle a normal human moving the batteries of anything less than a large truck if modular batteries are arranged along the underside of the vehicle... a GOOD place for them to be because they lower the center of gravity anyway! Battery design requires upward pressure to allow releases to be operated... elevate jack until it supports the battery and allows release, pull a catch and lower the jack and roll away the battery. Easy.

The biggest thing is just having the standards established. The change could be faster than a fill up if the system is arranged right. And with proper standardization, many stations could have robots you drive over pull and replace the batteries.

Modular batteries requires only a sufficient number of batteries to cover all beyond-charge needs.

Swappable cars requires the same number of batteries in addition just as many cars. You don't consider that a vast increase in required infrastructure? Especially when MOST of it will sit idle during non-vacationing times of year? Idle in the incarnation of an ENTIRE VEHICLE sitting OUTSIDE and depreciating from elemental exposure? Or is the proposal to take the already expensive real-estate investment this requires and multiply it by providing shelter for the fleets of idle vehicles? Seems incredibly wasteful of space compared to something the size of a car wash filled with stacks of quick charging battery racks.

And swapping a car because of an unexpectedly long day of errands sounds ridiculously inconvenient. Especially if the car is already loaded with groceries. By the way, on the car swap concept being "quick", was this quickness figured against transferring all of your luggage of arbitrary shape and number for an indefinitely long trip to a new vehicle taking less time than interchanging a modular component that would be designed for simple interchange?

[Van Rijn]

It is a really simple thing to design quick swappable batteries. Just look at any contemporary cell phone.

Not the Droid Razr, and many that do have custom battery packs.

Or even a flashlight! A sequential string of modular batteries is a better solution for intermediate demands between standard battery sizes. Muscle power isn't a huge requirement here. Have you ever seen a palate jack? That could handle a normal human moving the batteries of anything less than a large truck if modular batteries are arranged along the underside of the vehicle... a GOOD place for them to be because they lower the center of gravity anyway! Battery design requires upward pressure to allow releases to be operated... elevate jack until it supports the battery and allows release, pull a catch and lower the jack and roll away the battery. Easy.

Not so easy if you want to swap the battery packs as quickly as a gas tank can be filled, with battery packs giving similar range, working under the same range of conditions as you'd get with a conventional car, and at a competitive cost. The problem for the battery electric is that conventionally fueled vehicles are tough to beat, even if infrastructure wasn't such a big issue.

[Gillianren]

What is the big difference that one kid causes?

To throw out just one item, a big mess. How many cars do you see going by with stickers on the windows? If I were going to take a car from someone who had had kids in it, I'd want to make sure it was sanitized first. I won't be the only one with that issue. And I wouldn't expect someone to take my car, if I'd had kids in it, without having it cleaned first.

Besides, people have a lot of different preferences in cars, and how do you ensure that the swappable car available meets that? It's one thing if you're renting it for a vacation where you're just driving around town. But if you go with swappable cars, that means every driving trip will mean ensuring that somewhere will be able to accommodate your needs. I know a lot of people who drive very long distances for work. My renaissance faire boss drives thousands of miles a year at least, probably tens of thousands. And for a while, he drove a truck which had a lockable aluminum compartment on the back, because he needed somewhere safe to keep his thousands of dollars in merchandise. How could he be sure that a service station on his way to and from Arizona or Las Vegas from Oregon would be able to meet his needs?

[IsaacKuo]

It is a really simple thing to design quick swappable batteries. Just look at any contemporary cell phone. Or even a flashlight! A sequential string of modular batteries is a better solution for intermediate demands between standard battery sizes. Muscle power isn't a huge requirement here. Have you ever seen a palate jack? That could handle a normal human moving the batteries of anything less than a large truck if modular batteries are arranged along the underside of the vehicle... a GOOD place for them to be because they lower the center of gravity anyway! Battery design requires upward pressure to allow releases to be operated... elevate jack until it supports the battery and allows release, pull a catch and lower the jack and roll away the battery. Easy.

This means the batteries must be large and flat to fit underneath the car, and that they must be supported from above essentially outside the structural body of the car. There are a lot of design compromises here. The batteries need extra mass in impact protection, extra structural mass for stiffness due to the large flat shape, and the car needs extra mass for the structure and mechanisms to support these batteries. Considering the batteries are similar in mass to an engine block, this is all going to add a lot of mass which compromises performance and range.

That said, I have been trying to think of a way to solve these issues, using battery modules shaped somewhat like a propane tank on its side. It's a squat cylinder with wheelchair style circular handrails on the sides. This lets you manually wheel around the battery, and then roll it up a ramp into the car. The door to the battery compartment could open downward to turn into the ramp. It's still a lot of manhandling, but it's something you could do to on the side of the road. And the danger of a runaway module rolling around is on par with a propane tank. But it still involves a lot of extra structural mass for the battery compartment, ramp, and securing mechanism. It also involves various design compromises and constraints compared to fixed battery modules.

The biggest thing is just having the standards established. The change could be faster than a fill up if the system is arranged right. And with proper standardization, many stations could have robots you drive over pull and replace the batteries.

Just having the standard established won't cause there to be a bunch of battery swap stations to suddenly appear. And if there aren't many stations, then the system doesn't work.

Modular batteries requires only a sufficient number of batteries to cover all beyond-charge needs.

Swappable cars requires the same number of batteries in addition just as many cars.

Wrong. The beauty of swapping cars is that the type of car doesn't need to be the same type of car. You could rent a gasoline car rather than an electric car. You could rent a van if you need more capacity. You can match capabilities with requirements. The missing link is an app which makes the process of on demand short term rental easy and reasonable.

The reduced number of moving parts in an electric car will eventually favor them for on demand short term rental, but in the meantime plain old gasoline cars will work.

And swapping a car because of an unexpectedly long day of errands sounds ridiculously inconvenient. Especially if the car is already loaded with groceries.

If your weekly grocery trip requires more range than an electric car's battery allows, you shouldn't be doing your groceries in an electric car.

By the way, on the car swap concept being "quick", was this quickness figured against transferring all of your luggage of arbitrary shape and number for an indefinitely long trip to a new vehicle taking less time than interchanging a modular component that would be designed for simple interchange?

The thing is--an electric car's battery is easily the heaviest and most expensive thing in the car. It would be a lot easier to implement a quick swap cargo box...maybe something on wheels so you could just roll it from one trunk to another. Oh wait, they already have those things. It's called luggage and you can buy them at any department store.

It could be made more streamlined if there were a standard trunk height and/or a ramp board to go between two trunks, but this is not a requirement.

[IsaacKuo]

To throw out just one item, a big mess. How many cars do you see going by with stickers on the windows? If I were going to take a car from someone who had had kids in it, I'd want to make sure it was sanitized first. I won't be the only one with that issue. And I wouldn't expect someone to take my car, if I'd had kids in it, without having it cleaned first.

Besides, people have a lot of different preferences in cars, and how do you ensure that the swappable car available meets that?

You will define your preferences in the GPS app. When it books the car rentals, it only books something which matches those preferences.

Think of the app as a robotic travel agent, who knows what you want and shops around and arranges everything with the car rental services for you. Back before mass market internet access and smart phones, this would have involved human travel agents and the process would have been prohibitively slow and expensive.

It's one thing if you're renting it for a vacation where you're just driving around town. But if you go with swappable cars, that means every driving trip will mean ensuring that somewhere will be able to accommodate your needs. I know a lot of people who drive very long distances for work.

If you need to drive very long distances for work, then you need a gasoline/diesel car or truck. If you can't afford to own, and you have to rent, then you have to rent. That's tough, but sometimes reality is tough. Owning or renting an old fashioned carbon emitting car/truck is going to be more practical than long distance commuting with electrics, even with car swapping or battery swapping.

[Gillianren]

You going to answer the point about cleaning the cars? Besides, I don't have or want a cell phone, much less a smart phone.

[Strange]

There are already trials of swappable battery systems. For example http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/. I have also recently seen a press release about one of the major car makers (Mitsubishi?) starting a similar trial.

(There are also already "car clubs" for people who only need occasional use of a car. There are dedicated parking spaces for them on most streets in London.)

[IsaacKuo]

You going to answer the point about cleaning the cars?

I thought it was obvious from my answer that you can define your preferences. You can define your preferences such that you don't want a car which has been rented to anyone with kids, or you want to rent a car which has been cleaned before your use.

There are all sorts of preferences which you could define. One common preference would be to rule out a "smoker" car--once a car has absorbed a cigarette smoke smell, it's there for good, and many people can't stand the smell.

This is not really something fundamentally new to car rental.

Besides, I don't have or want a cell phone, much less a smart phone.

So what? There are plenty of people who do have smart phones.

A product or service does not need to be purchased by everybody in order to be profitable. Farmville makes plenty of money even though there exist people who don't have or want a Facebook account.

[HenrikOlsen]

Forcing people to accept swapping cars is not a solution for everything, though it may be a solution for some.

For those who prefer to have the car be their personal space and territory, swappable batteries are still a good solution provided it's possible to standardize the batteries. The infrastructure investment is likely to be quite a lot smaller than the one required for swappable cars as it requires lots of batteries rather than lots of cars.

Simple logic says that the number of cars required in the swappable car scenario is the same as the number of batteries in the swappable batteries scenario, for the same service coverage, since the "dead time" due to recharging is going to be the same for a battery and for a car with a battery.
This will make the swappable cars concept less attractive because it'll require vastly higher investments in stock, plus the space needed for parking the cars while they're recharged and cleaned will be an additional cost.

[JCoyote]

If your weekly grocery trip requires more range than an electric car's battery allows, you shouldn't be doing your groceries in an electric car.

This is a very naive assumption about the predictability of someone's... anyone's... day. Perhaps we can tell where particles are as well as their velocities too?

This concept of not bothering with swappable systems leads to one outcome... people getting stuck for hours due to unexpected circumstances. Leaving the world with non-versatile systems that discourage the adoption of technological improvements. There are good reasons not to have everyone going coast-to-coast using finite petroleum. Put BLUNTLY: Without a swappable battery electric car, almost no one will buy one in Oklahoma City. Or Dallas, or a good proportion of Los Angeles or Denver or any city where 40+ mile commutes are common.

My own case in Oklahoma City... working a normal job in addition to advertising work that takes me across the entire area. Most days are around 80 miles. Some are over 200. Other times I work in film and run around the entire state on short notice.

And yes the car can be recharged every night, but the larger the area you drive over the closer to the line it gets on getting home when things get unpredictable. And most people have an unpredictable day every week or two.

Cars stuck due to a snowstorm and no available charging? Better to have a station for them to pull in to.

But then again, it might be a golden age for car towing services!

Check the link for exactly what I have described. http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution-switch-stations
This is comparable to an automated car wash, and NO ONE has complained about the vast infrastructure it has take for them to appear everywhere back in the 80's. Attaching a protective plate to the underside of the battery is a weak argument as it is a non-moving static component. Trying to replace it with an entire spare car... which as I stated is still required if you want to take even a quarter of the current gasoline fleet and put them in electric then have them renting... anything... every time they want to take a longer trip.

[IsaacKuo]

There are already trials of swappable battery systems. For example http://www.wired.com/autopia/2009/05/better-place/. I have also recently seen a press release about one of the major car makers (Mitsubishi?) starting a similar trial.

Very impressive. I see they have a more recent video showing a newer version: http://www.betterplace.com/the-compa...%20Switch%20Go

In this video, they claim a switch time of less than 5 minutes. The new battery is tall and compact, and seems very well embedded within the main structure of the car. The bottom plate looks like an extremely sturdy cast/machined steel structure.

(There are also already "car clubs" for people who only need occasional use of a car. There are dedicated parking spaces for them on most streets in London.)

There is also already a car rental industry, which is what car swapping is all about.

[IsaacKuo]

Simple logic says that the number of cars required in the swappable car scenario is the same as the number of batteries in the swappable batteries scenario, for the same service coverage, since the "dead time" due to recharging is going to be the same for a battery and for a car with a battery.
This will make the swappable cars concept less attractive because it'll require vastly higher investments in stock, plus the space needed for parking the cars while they're recharged and cleaned will be an additional cost.

Except there are already millions of swappable cars out there already, and the infrastructure already exists. There's an entire car rental industry which already exists.

[Strange]

I think the idea of car swaps/clubs is that it is lower overhead than car rental - you don't need to fill out forms and worry about insurance, etc. every time you want a car for a few hours. But if you want a car for 2 weeks then rental is the way to go.

[IsaacKuo]

And yes the car can be recharged every night, but the larger the area you drive over the closer to the line it gets on getting home when things get unpredictable. And most people have an unpredictable day every week or two.

Cars stuck due to a snowstorm and no available charging? Better to have a station for them to pull in to.

But then again, it might be a golden age for car towing services!

Check the link for exactly what I have described. http://www.betterplace.com/the-solution-switch-stations

Actually, you described using multiple flat wide battery modules lining the underside of a vehicle, suitable for sliding underneath them with a palate jack. Batter Place stations require underground space for a tall battery. Their batteries are impossible to replace except at a station.

So, if you get stuck due to a snowstorm or whatever, you're just as stuck. Either way, your best option is a mobile charging service. A tow truck isn't necessary, just a car or truck with a suitable generator.

This is comparable to an automated car wash, and NO ONE has complained about the vast infrastructure it has take for them to appear everywhere back in the 80's.

Automated car washes were not essential, and would be used infrequently. You always had the option to simply not bother waiting in line for it if there was any wait.

But most importantly--just one isolated automated car wash was a useful thing. You need a vast network of battery swap stations for it to be useful. Just a few swap stations isn't so useful because you'd likely have to go out of your way to get to the station in the first place.

Attaching a protective plate to the underside of the battery is a weak argument as it is a non-moving static component.

To do what you were proposing would severely compromise the range and efficiency of the car. Batteries flat enough to slide underneath a car would require significant compromises for the reasons I stated.

Trying to replace it with an entire spare car... which as I stated is still required if you want to take even a quarter of the current gasoline fleet and put them in electric then have them renting... anything... every time they want to take a longer trip.

The entire spare cars already exist. There are millions of cars that already exist. We don't need to be throwing them away overnight. We can phase out usage. What on demand short term rental allows is matching capabilities with needs, which can reduce carbon emissions. A big van would only be rented when needed for the extra capacity, not for a daily single passenger commute. By making this service easy and reasonable, people can start using electrics as primary vehicles right away--not after waiting for some massive infrastructure. Gasoline cars would still exist, but they would account for a lower number of miles driven.

[IsaacKuo]

I think the idea of car swaps/clubs is that it is lower overhead than car rental - you don't need to fill out forms and worry about insurance, etc. every time you want a car for a few hours. But if you want a car for 2 weeks then rental is the way to go.

Ah, I see your point.

I think that large car rental services could figure out a way to eliminate/hide/streamline the paperwork, if car swaps/clubs can. If not, then they deserve to be discarded by the market when those car swaps/clubs eventually evolve into larger services. (Kind of the way credit unions evolved into full fledged banks.)

If the paperwork can't be eliminated, it could be streamlined by signing up for a multi-service contract. So, maybe you have to sign something once a year, but then it covers rentals for the next year from the affiliated car rental services.