Are Star Wars & Star Trek like Elvis & The Beatles?

[Buttercup]

There are "amorous devotees" of just about any character you'd care to name...

Pinhead of Hellraiser??

Seriously, I was surprised there's erotic fan fiction regarding Darth Maul.

If he were real and I were confronted by him, I'd be terror struck and probably faint on the spot.

[Buttercup]

And the books aren't canon, just what appears onscreen. At least I'm pretty sure that's the official stance.

The books are officially approved by Lucas Books, and there is a definite timeline at the beginning of each -- including exactly where in the timeline the events of the novel occur.

[NEOWatcher]

The books are officially approved by Lucas Books...

Isn't that code for "yes, you can pay me royalties"?
Judging from the prequels, I don't think a Lucas endorsement means much in continuing the saga.

[Buttercup]

Isn't that code for "yes, you can pay me royalties"?
Judging from the prequels, I don't think a Lucas endorsement means much in continuing the saga.

Beats me. Just reporting the facts (don't shoot the messenger).

[Gillianren]

Pinhead of Hellraiser??

Yes.

The books are officially approved by Lucas Books, and there is a definite timeline at the beginning of each -- including exactly where in the timeline the events of the novel occur.

Yeah, and the Star Trek books are officially approved by Paramount, but Gene Roddenberry himself said the only thing that was canon was the TV shows, the movies, and one episode of the animated series.

[Buttercup]

Okay, Gillianren. There's only so far that I care about what's "canon" and what isn't (and why)...

I've reached that point.

Simply stating that Lucas Books is the publisher of the SW novels and there is a timeline at the beginning of each, stating where exactly in the timeline (era) the events occur.

Take from that what you will...

My name isn't George Lucas. ;-p

[Gillianren]

My point is that all figuring out why people say and do what they do is retconning. That includes if it's in a published work of fiction with the Lucas stamp on it, because Lucas, so far as I know, doesn't even read the things. Besides, it doesn't take a genius to work out that the best Star Wars movies are the ones he had the least to do with--or to work out that he hadn't had most of the series planned when he made the first one.

[Noclevername]

Okay, Gillianren. There's only so far that I care about what's "canon" and what isn't (and why)...

I've reached that point.

She's "just reporting the facts, don't shoot the messenger".

[Moose]

Just to get some facts out, and to keep this conversation from turning snippy:

In 2000, Lucas Licensing appointed Leland Chee to create a continuity tracking database referred to as the "Holocron". As with every other aspect having to do with the overall story of Star Wars, the Holocron follows the canon policy that has been in effect for years.

The Holocron is divided into 5 levels (in order of precedence): G-canon, T-canon, C-canon, S-canon, and N-canon.

G-canon is absolute canon; the movies (their most recent release), the scripts, the novelizations of the movies, the radio plays, and any statements by George Lucas himself. G-canon overrides the lower levels of canon when there is a contradiction. Within G-canon, many fans follow an unofficial progression of canonicity where the movies are the highest canon, followed by the scripts, the novelizations, and then the radio plays.

T-canon[2] refers to the canon level comprising only the two television shows: Star Wars: The Clone Wars and the Star Wars live-action TV series. Its precedence over C-Level canon was confirmed by Chee.[3]

C-canon is primarily composed of elements from the Expanded Universe including books, comics, and games bearing the label of Star Wars. Games and RPG sourcebooks are a special case; the stories and general background information are themselves fully C-canon, but the other elements such as character/item statistics and gameplay are, with few exceptions, N-canon.

S-canon is secondary canon; the story itself is considered non-continuity, but the non-contradicting elements are still a canon part of the Star Wars universe. This includes things like the online roleplaying game Star Wars: Galaxies and certain elements of a few N-canon stories.

N-canon is non-canon. "What-if" stories (such as stories published under the Star Wars: Infinities label), crossover appearances (such as the Star Wars character appearances in Soulcalibur IV), game statistics, and anything else directly contradicted by higher canon ends up here. N-canon is the only level that is not considered official canon by Lucasfilm. A significant amount of material that was previously C-canon was rendered N-canon by the release of Episodes I-III.

And no, Lucas apparently doesn't personally deal with determining canon outside of the movies, but Lucasfilm has established a continuity database (see above) and staff to handle those concerns, and is known to keep an oar in as far as what game developers are doing with the license.

[Swift]

That's brilliant Moose. Can one get more geeky than creating precise definitions of geekiness? And I'm not being sarcastic, or aiming the comment at Moose, I just find it beautiful and a little insane (in a good way).

[Moose]

That's brilliant Moose. Can one get more geeky than creating precise definitions of geekiness? And I'm not being sarcastic, or aiming the comment at Moose, I just find it beautiful and a little insane (in a good way).

Heh, because Star Wars fans tend to be found at many levels of obsession and fanaticism, formalizing the canon was probably a necessary step to keep everybody from going at each other with colored sticks.

[Buttercup]

Yeah, and my colored stick is RED today, so you better watch it!!

[Paul Beardsley]

Fascinating. Having been (grudgingly) involved in Doctor Who fandom, I eventually learnt that there was no connection between continuity and canon. Basically, if a Doctor Who story is endorsed by the BBC (either it was produced by the BBC themselves, or they'd given permission to a publisher such as Virgin or Big Finish) then it's canon, even if it roundly contradicts established continuity. Many fans have real difficulty with this idea, but their alternative definitions tend to be those stories that they like.

With Hitch Hiker, Douglas Adams took the approach of every version (radio series, books, TV series, record, adventure game, film) being valid in its own right. At the end of the day, they are all fiction, and nobody is obliged to (a) experience every version or (b) reconcile the contradictions if they do experience every version.

I imagine fans of crime fiction have no problems with all this. Usually the first three or four books get adapted into TV shows that follow the books fairly closely, but then they diverge with a vengeance. But of course the author who created the detective team still gets paid.

I really should be writing crime fiction.

[Swift]

I really should be writing crime fiction.

How about a story about a fan of some science fiction series who is murdered because of their endorsement of non-canon materials for that series?

[Gillianren]

Bill Ransom's piece of advice to me (I didn't ever take his class, but two of my friends did) was "Never write in a field with obsessive fans." While Bill isn't as famous as his friend Frank Herbert, he did still have a fan put a circle of bones and candles on his deck once.

[Paul Beardsley]

How about a story about a fan of some science fiction series who is murdered because of their endorsement of non-canon materials for that series?

What part of fiction didn't you understand?

[Moose]

Many fans have real difficulty with this idea, but their alternative definitions tend to be those stories that they like.

Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.

Heh, I don't have a problem with it at all. The doctor routinely alters time on a lark. Just not fixed points in time. It would be pretty arrogant, timelord arrogant (NTTAWWT) to think that _our_ personal timelines are somehow fixed points.

[Paul Beardsley]

Wibbly-wobbly, timey-wimey.

Heh, I don't have a problem with it at all. The doctor routinely alters time on a lark. Just not fixed points in time. It would be pretty arrogant, timelord arrogant (NTTAWWT) to think that _our_ personal timelines are somehow fixed points.

Nah, I find these internal justifications lame. I'd rather just accept there are contradictions and move on.

[Swift]

Originally Posted by Swift
How about a story about a fan of some science fiction series who is murdered because of their endorsement of non-canon materials for that series?

What part of fiction didn't you understand?

Touche

[Glom]

I like ST more, but I'm not fanatical about it anymore. SW was good, but I was never a raging fanboy, which is why I don't get angry about the prequels or the constant revisions to the original.

OTOH, those who question the Truth of the Opera House are scum and I'm going to smack them up.

I wonder what Darth Wong thinks of the prequels now after a few years have passed. He defended them at the time while denigrating those who defended ST:Nemesis by talking about how they slowly came to terms with the truth. I wonder if he's slowly come to terms with the truth?

Time to watch some Plinkett. After the Episode III review, I'd had it up to hear with SW so I have barely touched it for nearly a year. Now, it's time to enjoy the roast once again. BTW, major shock to discover in the latest trailer that the Plinkett in Half in the Bag, isn't the real Plinkett. It's like the revelation about Earth not being Earth.