Are Star Wars & Star Trek like Elvis & The Beatles?

[starcanuck64]

Definitely Star Wars over the Star Trek movies especially the first, I remember how disappointed I was, it killed my enthusiasm for ST until Wrath of Khan came out.

[Jim]

I actually liked that one, but not for the storyline, special effects or other stuff you normally associate with ST. I think it was a pretty good character movie.

Exactly, the plot was secondary to the characters. Even the secondary characters were well-presented and interesting.

[danscope]

Yes, I will agree. Your Vulcan mind remembers well.

Best regards,
Dan

[Gillianren]

Heck, my mom liked Star Trek IV. And she doesn't like Star Trek. She thinks it's boring. Star Wars, she's kind of meh on. And I think she's also in the enviable "What's Twilight?" camp. Then again, Mom's a mystery fan, and she's not big into sci-fi at all. She did enjoy Galaxy Quest, though she told me she thought I'd like it more. On account of actually getting more of the jokes.

[NEOWatcher]

She did enjoy Galaxy Quest, though she told me she thought I'd like it more. On account of actually getting more of the jokes.

My mom enjoyed that one too, and she also is not a sci-fi fan.
I think she enjoyed the jokes because they targeted many of the reasons she doesn't watch sci-fi.

[novaderrik]

Not the original three. Star Wars cost $11 million, and the remaining two cost about $32 million each. Of course, that's still a lot more than what was spent on Star Trek - I think the average cost of a TOS episode was in the low six figures.

how much of the TOS episode budget was spent on new torn shirts for Shatner? or did they only have a couple of torn shirts that they used for every time he needed one?

[Swift]

I definitely like Star Wars more, but I know many Star Trek fans and have great respect for them.

Sure, sure, but would you want one to marry your sister?

[Van Rijn]

I like the animated Clone Wars series.

I've seen a few episodes but it's a bit disturbing for me. They have a voice over narration that is reminiscent of WWII newsreels, one of the big heroes there is young Darth Vader, and pretty much all the events are being set up by the chessmaster Palpatine. I can accept Vader as a tragic figure, but not a positive, heroic one, and the story events are pointless or worse: Who cares if they win against a Big Bad when it turns out they're just helping another Big Bad? And I don't want to invoke Godwin's Law, but given the WWII allusions and who Palpatine is . . . well, it makes me think of the worst kinds of propaganda films.

[Gillianren]

how much of the TOS episode budget was spent on new torn shirts for Shatner? or did they only have a couple of torn shirts that they used for every time he needed one?

They reused them. That's why the shirt (there was only one per season, I think) is always torn in the same place. And Nimoy is limping in the first season, because they couldn't afford boots which fit.

[Moose]

I've seen a few episodes but it's a bit disturbing for me. They have a voice over narration that is reminiscent of WWII newsreels, one of the big heroes there is young Darth Vader, and pretty much all the events are being set up by the chessmaster Palpatine. I can accept Vader as a tragic figure, but not a positive, heroic one, and the story events are pointless or worse: Who cares if they win against a Big Bad when it turns out they're just helping another Big Bad? And I don't want to invoke Godwin's Law, but given the WWII allusions and who Palpatine is . . . well, it makes me think of the worst kinds of propaganda films.

It may help to remember/consider that clone wars is more-or-less told from Ahsoka Tano's perspective, the same way 4,5,6 is more-or-less told from the Droids' perspective. To Ahsoka, at that point in her life, Anakin _is_ absolutely her Big Damn Hero. The knowledge that Anakin is the tipping point that, later, either directly or indirectly, gets her killed is simply the personal "tragedy" we can put to Palpatine's "statistics".

As for the newsreels being disturbing, I suspect that's absolutely intentional. Clone Wars isn't supposed to be an entirely comfortable experience. The propaganda tone of the newsreels, to me, is a reminder that "good guys?", "bad guys?", phooey. Other than the puppet-masters projecting a sort of imposed morality on their sphere of influence, everybody else are just "some guy" split into "us" vs "them" vs neither, all (or at least nearly all) basically trying to survive with their principles intact, just like real life.

(More so if you subscribe to my retcon interpretation that neither Ben nor Yoda expected Luke to survive battle with Palpatine and Vader. Having finally understood the Prophesy, they trained Luke as a Jedi so he would die as a Jedi, in the hopes that this would finally provoke "battered-wife" Vader into turning on Palpatine over Luke's execution, or at least self-destructing. Remember, it was Anakin who would restore balance to the force [by wiping out both sides]. The Prophesy never said anything about Luke.)

Seriously, while there's a definite Heinlein-esque feel to the series, the writing in Clone Wars is pretty solid. It may be worth another try, if you're willing.

[Noclevername]

There was a Clone Wars episode that adressed that directly-- Ahsoka meets a young Separatist who turns out to be just as much of an idealsitic patriot as she is, not an evil "bad guy". The whole war, remember, unbeknownst to Our Heroes, is ultimately being set up by Sith manipulators on both sides. The Separatists are just the ones that don't have their own pre-existing peacekeeping force and clones to turn into a Grand Army, therefore they have to rely more on droids, mercenaries and criminals (The "good" guys have also made deals with Jabba and other criminals when it was to their benefit). Several episodes have also touched on dissident groups who only accepted the Seps' help because they feel the Republic is hopelessly corrupt; They just don't know that it's Palpatine doing most of the corrupting.

Ultimately the show is about a war, a pretty grim subject. It's also about the downfall of Anakin from brash young BDH to fanatical follower.

[KaiYeves]

Sure, sure, but would you want one to marry your sister?

I can't really answer that question, as I don't have a sister and I'm pretty sure that neither of my brothers will ever want to marry a nerdy girl after growing up with me.

[Romanus]

Re OP:
I think the Elvis/Beatles analogy is pretty apt. I like them both, but have always leaned much more towards ST; however, I'm also fair enough to acknowledge the flaws in the franchise. I will say this, though: in my experience, SW fans are typically much more strident about the superiority of their series than Trekkies are about theirs. I've seen SW fans go on and on about Darth Maul like they had a beer with him last week, while most Trekkies I run into are like, "Nuclear wessels. Heh-heh."

That's just my opinion; I could be wrong...

[Buttercup]

They have a voice over narration that is reminiscent of WWII newsreels

Yes, and it was a nice shock for me, when first hearing it. It's sort of corny, but I like it.

I love seeing more of Padme.

Ahsoka is a nice addition to the ensemble as well.

It is curious to see a generally jolly and reasonable Anakin.

Need to get Season II on DVD. Actually it's on my holiday wish-list with husband.

[novaderrik]

They reused them. That's why the shirt (there was only one per season, I think) is always torn in the same place. And Nimoy is limping in the first season, because they couldn't afford boots which fit.

i don't know what's more disturbing- that you bothered to address my silly question at all, or that you actually knew the answer..

[Jim]

The discussion of spoofs now has its own thread. Let the Mods know if I missed a pertienent post... or six.

[NEOWatcher]

And Nimoy is limping in the first season, because they couldn't afford boots which fit.

That seems to be an urban legend.
He did limp in "the Cage", but I don't know of elsewhere in the first season he limped. It was part of the plot.
Memory Alpha

As a science officer under the command of Captain Christopher Pike, Spock was wounded in the leg when Pike's landing party was attacked on Rigel VII in 2254. As the ship proceeded to the Vega colony for medical care, a radio wave distress call forced Pike to divert the ship to Talos IV. Still limping, Spock joined a landing party that transported to the barren surface of the planet, where Pike was captured by Talosians; he was the first of the ship's crew to realize that the Talosians had powerful illusory abilities.

[Swift]

This may be a little bit of hijack, but what the hey....

I was watching a little bit of SW Episode IV (which will always be SW I to me) over the weekend on TV and I got to thinking about something that has bugged me for a while.

It is the scene in the lounge of the Millenium Falcon, where Luke is practicing with the light saber, and Hans is talking about "hokey religions" (referring to the Jedi). When Star Wars came out, I thought that scene was fine, since I had the impression that the Empire had been around for a while and the Jedi were long, long gone and forgotten.

But once SW I, II, and III came out, we realize that only 20 or 25 years has passed from III to IV. That seems kind of weird that in that period of time that the Jedi are just about completely forgetten, given that they were the peacekeepers of the Republic for an extremely long period of time. That seems like a major disconnect to me.

[Buttercup]

This may be a little bit of hijack, but what the hey....

I was watching a little bit of SW Episode IV (which will always be SW I to me) over the weekend on TV and I got to thinking about something that has bugged me for a while.

It is the scene in the lounge of the Millenium Falcon, where Luke is practicing with the light saber, and Hans is talking about "hokey religions" (referring to the Jedi). When Star Wars came out, I thought that scene was fine, since I had the impression that the Empire had been around for a while and the Jedi were long, long gone and forgotten.

But once SW I, II, and III came out, we realize that only 20 or 25 years has passed from III to IV. That seems kind of weird that in that period of time that the Jedi are just about completely forgetten, given that they were the peacekeepers of the Republic for an extremely long period of time. That seems like a major disconnect to me.

I agree. Same impression.

As for Star Trek and early Mr. Spock...it's trivial, but I'm glad they re-did his eyebrows. Slanted is fine. But BUSHY and slanted?? Eeewww. Glad someone in the Makeup Dept broke out the tweezers!

[NEOWatcher]

It is the scene in the lounge of the Millenium Falcon, where Luke is practicing with the light saber, and Hans is talking about "hokey religions" (referring to the Jedi). When Star Wars came out, I thought that scene was fine, since I had the impression that the Empire had been around for a while and the Jedi were long, long gone and forgotten.

There was also a scene that I barely remember with (Captain Antelles?) talking about the dead religion and sorcerer's ways.

Since Lucas always had this idea for 3 trilogies, I have a feeling that the Jedi were supposed to be killed off in the first trilogy and Vader was supposed to develop in the second. In other words, the prequel was probably supposed to be spread out to 2 trilogies.

I've always heard conflicting stories about the 3 trilogies including the story about how they were all tied together with R2D2 and C3P0.

[Buttercup]

I've always heard conflicting stories about the 3 trilogies including the story about how they were all tied together with R2D2 and C3P0.

I thought it ridiculous that young-boy Anakin would have built C3PO. What does a 10 year old slave boy on a far-flung godforsaken desert planet want/need with a *protocol* droid?? He'd be building a COMBAT droid, if anything.

[Noclevername]

I thought it ridiculous that young-boy Anakin would have built C3PO. What does a 10 year old slave boy on a far-flung godforsaken desert planet want/need with a *protocol* droid?? He'd be building a COMBAT droid, if anything.

I hate to justify any part of the Second Trilogy in any way, but his owner would probably have not let a slave complete a combat droid. Ani probably had to use whatever hardware and software were available or allowed to him, and a second-hand, probably memory-wiped protocol droid brain wouldn't be of much use to anyone else on Tatooine, so they let him keep it.

[Swift]

I hate to justify any part of the Second Trilogy in any way, but his owner would probably have not let a slave complete a combat droid. Ani probably had to use whatever hardware and software were available or allowed to him, and a second-hand, probably memory-wiped protocol droid brain wouldn't be of much use to anyone else on Tatooine, so they let him keep it.

That makes sense, though one wonders what a 10 year old slave boy needed with a Protocol Droid. And "Protocol Droid" was always said like it was a particular type or model of droid (like "R2 unit"), at least in IV/V/VI. So, did Ani violate Emperial patent law when he made his 'knock-off' Protocol Droid?

[SeanF]

This may be a little bit of hijack, but what the hey....

I was watching a little bit of SW Episode IV (which will always be SW I to me) over the weekend on TV and I got to thinking about something that has bugged me for a while.

It is the scene in the lounge of the Millenium Falcon, where Luke is practicing with the light saber, and Hans is talking about "hokey religions" (referring to the Jedi). When Star Wars came out, I thought that scene was fine, since I had the impression that the Empire had been around for a while and the Jedi were long, long gone and forgotten.

But once SW I, II, and III came out, we realize that only 20 or 25 years has passed from III to IV. That seems kind of weird that in that period of time that the Jedi are just about completely forgetten, given that they were the peacekeepers of the Republic for an extremely long period of time. That seems like a major disconnect to me.

Oh, absolutely, yes. That's just one of many ways in which the prequel trilogy screws up the original trilogy.

If we assume that Han and Luke are the same ages as Harrison Ford and Mark Hamil, Han would've been nine years old during the events of "Revenge of the Sith." It seems very unlikely that anyone of that age would have the attitude towards Jedi and the Force that Han did.

The Emperor's and Vader's destruction of the Jedi should've been a "mopping up" of an already mostly-gone organization.

[Gillianren]

That seems to be an urban legend.
He did limp in "the Cage", but I don't know of elsewhere in the first season he limped. It was part of the plot.
Memory Alpha

If it's an urban legend--and I'll admit to not having watched closely enough to be sure--I heard it from what might be called the ultimate in sources. Maybe he just felt like he was limping, but it didn't show on camera.

[Romanus]

Ditto, Swift et al.--that time issue has always bugged me. It also makes Moff Tarkin's surprise at Vader's statement in IV that Obi Wan is still alive look ridiculous; after all, if he had been killed in the meantime, the Empire surely would've heard about it. If he hadn't been killed, then the short time frame would ensure that he was almost certainly still alive.

[Buttercup]

I hate to justify any part of the Second Trilogy in any way, but his owner would probably have not let a slave complete a combat droid...

Well, that's a good point. But considering he's building C3PO at home (owner wouldn't know anyway)? It's just silly regardless, imo. C3PO is prissy, *body-part*retentive, and a scaredy-cat; maybe all that was programmed in later by someone else?

Imagine Darth Maul, as a kid, building C3PO? I can't either...

[Buttercup]

If we assume that Han and Luke are the same ages as Harrison Ford and Mark Hamil, Han would've been nine years old during the events of "Revenge of the Sith." It seems very unlikely that anyone of that age would have the attitude towards Jedi and the Force that Han did.

That'd be about right. And Han appears in Death Troopers by Joe Schreiber. At this time Han is, if I'm recalling the storyline correctly (its placement in SW official timeline), perhaps 27 years old...when Luke & Leia would still be kids. BTW, Chewie and Han are already a team in Death Troopers.

[Buttercup]

Oh, and maybe I shouldn't mention this, but there's a fan page for "amorous" devotees of Darth Maul. I'd get infracted to post it here. Some gals reeeeally "like" him. Darth Maul?!

[Gillianren]

There are "amorous devotees" of just about any character you'd care to name. And the books aren't canon, just what appears onscreen. At least I'm pretty sure that's the official stance.