Order of Kilopi
Do you know that living in San Francisco, I know people who think that the toothpaste companies formulation of toothpaste so the flavor doesn't clash with that of coffee is an evil scheme to sell more product? Really. I had to defend Colgate from accusations of...you tell me.Originally Posted by profloater
How in the hell would I ever explain what you just said to them? Detroit is already Mordor to such as these. I'm glad I don't live in their heads.
Order of Kilopi
Strange though it may sound for you, in Denmark taxes on diesel are lower than taxes on petrol.
Precisely because it's a more logical fuel, the government wanted to make it more economically attractive to chose diesel engines when buying private cars.
I've already pretty much settled on a diesel Smart as the first car I'm going to get once I actually decide to get one, and that hasn't been changed by my recent trip to Hamburg where it seems like everyone drives Smart's.
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Reductionist and proud of it.
Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. Benjamin Franklin
Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails. Clarence Darrow
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. Mark Twain
Established Member
I drove a petrol Smart for a while, fun but not very economical. I would also choose the diesel one now but we also seem to carry too much luggage. I note that Denmark also has huge taxes on cars themselves so the fuel should be given away!
The improvement made in diesel turbo technology have been very impressive also the development of small diesels which is difficult. Diesels will also run happily on vegetable oils so long as iodine is excluded. That gets controversial.
Established Member
From waht I hear, Detroit is a kind of shadow of its former self since the ring got put back.
Order of Kilopi
More like a Mini with perky headlights.
Order of Kilopi
I'm not sure what you are getting at here. I don't see it as being much different than what I have been saying.
Although; I don't know how to read this:
I can see taxes being rigged to sway the market one way or another. But how is the market rigged?
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Speaking of Taxes, you know that $7,500 federal tax credit that elevated the asking price for the Leaf about $9,000? Four months later, I am STILL waiting, and the IRS tells me that the energy credit forms go to a group that is way behind. It has held up the rest of my return, too; which is substantial because we made a lot in bonuses.
So it seems that it is not only the Nissan Dealers and every pickup on the road that have contempt for those of us who jumped on this new technology.
This is my first Summer with the Leaf, and the dealer assured me the performance would improve during the summer months, and it has. Last November we could start with 100 Leaf miles and make the 35 mile round trip to my wife's sisters with nine Leaf miles to spare. We did it last weekend with 22 Leaf miles to spare - an improvement of about 10%. Sigh. It's still a long ways to the coast.
Established Member
Thank you Jerry for telling us about your Leaf. If I bought a leaf, it sometimes would not make the round trip to the beach for me either, but possibly my son has a 240 volt accessable outlet. He lives about half way to the beach.
I suspect a 7 passenger hydrogen fuel cell car with a leaf size battery, and a range of 300 miles at 75 mph, would be almost as big as a full size bus, so $100,000 plus, even with some tax credits. Hydrogen is presently about twice as expensive as gasoline and much inferior to gasoline by volume. Likely frequent use of welding quality hydrogen would eventually poison the fuel cells. Likely the near by Navy air base has better hydrogen, but they will be reluctant to sell it to the public for security reasons, and the added traffic would make problems for them. Solar cells on the vehicle roof would likely allow another 8 miles for 8 hours parked in the sun in late June; less miles other months, or partially shaded. If the batteries are fully charged the fuel cell can make a tiny amount of hydrogen. I would feel uncmfortable about riding with that much hydrogen, especially at the 12,000 psi being researched for tank pressure. My guess is there will never be more than one million hydrogen vehicles, except possibly hydrogen as a back up fuel good for just a few miles, at low speed by it's self. Neil
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Did you get your software upgrade?
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No. It might help, but I doubt it - we have gotten pretty good at guess-ta-mating how wide our travel circle is at a given 'Leaf mileage'. We are learning to use the advantages, too. Parking for such things as a Timber's soccer game is problematic; but there is a charging station just a half block from the stadium. So we plot a trip so that it will include a two hour charge requirement.
Tomorrow we are going to Jansen Island - rumor has it there is a reasonably good beach. I'm trying to find an inflatable paddleboard that will shink into the 60's volkswagon-sized boot of a Leaf; actually, it is a little smaller.
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I just hope there is something to this
www.msnbc.msn.com/id/48601011#.UCmCCNkmzTo
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That'd be nice. I wonder what they did to double the charge of L-ions.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
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I agree that it would be nice. It wouldn't solve the issue of long recharge times, but it certainly would bring an electric into a daily range of a lot more people.
I'm not crazy about how they keep equating it to miles. Heck, just put more batteries in it. (of course, there are weight issues).
I'd rather see some kind of number related to weight vs charge.
I also wonder if they can do it while keeping the cost low enough. To Ara's point, without knowing how they did it, we don't know if it's something expensive to do (like put a whole lot more precious metals into it). I also wonder about the longevity.
But; that's just my thoughts. It's probably way to early to tell. If GM is investing in it and confident they made a breakthrough, then there's got to be something to it.
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They've made two cells which tested at 400Wh/Kg, 160% of a NCR18650A which is supposedly one of the highest energy density cells commercially available.
__________________________________________________
Reductionist and proud of it.
Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. Benjamin Franklin
Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails. Clarence Darrow
A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. Mark Twain
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You have to take some of these developments with a grain of salt. Just the other day I watched a Top Gear episode with Richard Hammond driving a GM hydrogen fuel cell car. The episode was from 2003. GM said it could be available in 2012....
Cum catapultae proscriptae erunt tum soli proscript catapultas habebunt.
Order of Kilopi
This seems like a pretty good article on the Envia battery tech and related efforts. It gives some background and some idea of what they still need to do:
http://www.forbes.com/sites/yonicohe...vehicle-costs/
For a plug-in hybrid (which is the only kind of electric I'd consider for now) greater battery range than the Volt would be nice, but not critical. The big issue is the long pay back time because of the cost premium in a plug-in hybrid, making it hard to justify economically. A large part of that is the cost of the batteries, so cheaper batteries could go a long way to make plug-ins popular.“The number one problem has been the cost. Seventy percent of lithium-ion cell [cost] comes from materials. Overall, 40 percent of the cost is the cathode alone,” said Envia co-founder and CTO Sujeet Kumar. “The cathode is the costliest component. If you want to reduce the cost of the lithium-ion battery, the first thing you want to reduce is the cost of the cathode.”
In 2007, Kumar began investigating new cathode technologies, hoping to identify a low-cost, energy-dense innovation. After reviewing the academic literature, he settled on a manganese-based chemistry created at Argonne National Laboratory. Envia licensed the technology, and then set to optimize cathode chemistry.
[...]
“The bottleneck [became] the anode. That is what ARPA-E funded. That was our proposal,” said Kumar. “We had a very good working cathode. If you [could] pair it up with an anode, you [would] end up with a 400 wh/kg battery.”
[...]
But before Envia’s battery can be commercialized in electric vehicles, it must also meet cycle life requirements, satisfy safety standards, and undergo qualification.
[...]
Numerous other start-ups are exploring both lithium-ion advances and alternative chemistries. Boston-Power recently raised capital from Chinese investors to manufacture advanced lithium-ion batteries. QuantumScape is a stealthy start-up backed by both Khosla Ventures and Kleiner Perkins Caufield & Byers. ARPA-E also funded Sion Power, Pellion Technologies, and PolyPlus, which are developing lithium-sulfur, magnesium-ion, and lithium-air batteries, respectively.
“Quite frankly, some of the other companies [we funded] are close [to 400 wh/kg],” said ARPA-E’s Boysen. “Our job is to bring not one, but many technologies across the finish line.”
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
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If the upgrades don't require lithium, I might still get a nice chunk of change for an old dead battery...now powering 921,000 cell phones...
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Just to put that cost into perspective, I found this breakdown of the Volt costs and it seems to confirm my gut feel.
For the record, my gut was telling me a lot of the cost was making it hybrid in the first place since the Volt costs about $20k more than a Cruze ECO which is basically the same car - same engine too. Based on sticker prices I saw at the dealer last week ($42k vs $22k)
Or about half the increase is battery, and half is to make it hybrid.Take away tax credits and offer the battery pack for free, and the Volt is still a $32,000 vehicle.
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But the real market comparison for ROI is to Gasoline fuel.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
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I don't quite understand your response.
I can only think that we are reading the following sentence with a different unsaid statement.
- big issue is the long pay back time because of the cost premium in a plug-in hybrid [vs a regular car],
- big issue is the long pay back time because of the cost premium in a plug-in hybrid [vs a regular hybrid],
For me either way works because there is a cost increase from gas to hybrid and another from hybrid to plug-in hybrid.
Cheaper batteries will make the ROI better in comparison to a regular car.
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Ah, OK. I thought he was comparing it to something that used more gas.
Et tu BAUT? Quantum mutatus ab illo.
Established Member
Jerry - Has the IRS processed your tax credit yet?
(Just curious about how long it takes)
I may have many faults, but being wrong ain't one of them. - Jimmy Hoffa
Order of Kilopi
No. One hundred-twenty-six days...and counting.
At least I have two options now: I can wait an immeasurable amount of time on the IRS phone line, in the IRS in the federal building line, or now that my return has been 'in review' more than 90 days with out notice; in the IRA tax payer advocate line.
Still, it is nice to not have to plunk down change every forth trip about the town, and most of the charging stations are still free...another 372,000 miles, and I will have my investment back without the refund.
Order of Kilopi
Well...that's a fresh breath of contempt, if I have ever heard one. Ya gotta love the IRS since they turned all the examiners offices into fortresses.
It took 1hr 45 minutes of waiting through three 'your call is important to us' gauntlets, followed by a strange conversation with the IRS that went something like this:
Your return, wait for me to log on...this will take a while; let me put you on hold for a minute....(10 minutes later.) OK, it is up now, and I see, yes, your return was flagged; it was sent to the examiners because of your claim of an electric car credit...let me; I'll forward this to the examiners...'''
12 minutes later...
[3 minutes discussing my birthday, address and ss number for the 4th time)...
Ok, they flagged it, what they need is proof that you purchased an electric car...ok, yes I can see that with the return, let me check...ok, they have been waiting for; what you need to send is a copy of the title...oh, of course the bank holds the title; well, what about the registration; if you can get that, and mail it to....let me see where to mail it too...
....4 minutes ---- well here is an address in Ogden Ut; No, your return went to Fresno? Use this address in Fresno...you better send it to both places....Well no, I mean, no; there is no record; you know, no one tried to notify you that they needed additional information; there is no record, we, ya, it would have been;
and I have been, told to wait 120 days before inquiring further - actually I started enquiring at 30 60 and 90 days, but they wouldn't pursue it beyond wait another week.
Yes I am pithy - they are holding on to a lot more than the electric car credit.
...unbelievable.
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