The Electric Leaf

[Jerry]

We did it. We bought Nissan's all electric Leaf - batteries included.

I thought the BA readers might like a concise review.

First, it is fun - really fun to drive. It looks even better up close than it does in the commercials. It wisps along and all you hear is road noise...maybe a little too much, but fairly typical of a sub-compact.

It has two hoods (or bonnets). A conventional bonnet and a funky little gas-cap like access right under the Nissan logo. Open the 'gas lid' and there are two 'gas caps'. One for 440V and one for 220 or 110 v, and they look for all the world like the gas caps on a car and a diesel lorrie.

The engine is surpisingly similar to a gas or diesel as well. It makes sense, since the heating, cooling and other auxillary systems are more-or-less conventional.

...to be continued

[Swift]

Thanks. I'm very curious to hear updates.

[BadTrip]

..........
The engine is surpisingly similar to a gas or diesel as well. It makes sense, since the heating, cooling and other auxillary systems are more-or-less conventional.

...to be continued

Interesting statement... in what way?

[NEOWatcher]

The engine is surpisingly similar to a gas or diesel as well. It makes sense, since the heating, cooling and other auxillary systems are more-or-less conventional.

Like BadTrip, I'm interested in that statement as well.

You say "engine". Is there an auxiliary engine in the car? if so I'd like to hear a description. I thought the Leaf was exclusively electric (unlike the Volt which is partly hybrid, but called all electric because of it's initial range).

Besides, I've always been curious about the performance of the heating system in an electric car like:
Is there a time lag before getting heat (like waiting for an engine to warm up before getting heat)?
How hot does the heat feel compared to other vehicles?
How much faster does it drain the battery?
I don't know the climate in your area, but around here, it would be a major concern of mine.

My relatively new car is great on gas, but it sure takes a heck of a long time to warm up. I bought it in the spring, so this is the first cold weather experience for me in it.

[Jerry]

The engine is surpisingly similar to a gas or diesel as well. It makes sense, since the heating, cooling and other auxillary systems are more-or-less conventional. There is even a normal 12v battery sitting right where you would expect it. This battery has its own charging system - a small solar panel built into the spoiler!

I call it an 'engine' because it is a complex system of heat pumps and auxillary systems that include many 'off the shelf' componenets, including two air conditioning fans.

It is a joy to drive - as I said the road noise is a bit high - this is also in part due to the hard silicon-rubber tyres.

[Jerry]

As tiny as the Leaf is, the cockpit works well - I'm a big person - linebacker, not jockey sized, and most subcompacts fill silly on me. (pun intended) It also feels safe: full side air bags and a rock-solid low center of gravity.

The Leaf has most but not all of the creature comforts I am used to; but there is a catch I will cover later.

It has a backup camera that should be useful (although my kids have a Toyota with a camera and they have both managed to bang into something good.)

Driving - It has a drive mode, a reverse and an eco. Drive is HOT off the line - too hot if you are accelerating while starting into a turn, and it could get you in trouble. I am told it will do 95mph in drive and I believe it. In the Eco mode, you build trees - it has a little tree display in the upper left hand corner of the display than grows trees when you drive conservatively. Unfortunately, the display restarts every time you turn the car off, otherwise we could be replenishing Oregons forests.

[PraedSt]

I have a couple of questions Jerry. How long to recharge under your most accessible voltage? And what's the range of a full charge?

[Jerry]

This is an absolute jewel of a short/urban commute vehicle except for the obvious catch: How far will it go?

Not far enough. Not to the Oregon Coast - which is 70 miles. We can charge it to a predicted range of as much as 110 miles; but there are huge caviates. Climb a hill; and you lose range quickly - some is recovered on the downside, but only at 40% efficency. We can make it from Lake Oswago to Vancouver and back, about 50 miles, but if we dally around town at all; we end up holding our breath.

The other problem with range is the climate control system. Turn it on, climb a hill, and that 110 mile range drops to less than 60. Drive more than 55 mph and you lop off another 20%. So what it is like, is being a student again; in a 1963 volkswagon with no air conditioning, a bad heater and only $1.60 for gas.

Which brings us to the other major problem: gas. As a student; the trips were planned as much as possible to include a drive past the coin-operated self serve. In a Leaf, the 'promised' charging stations are in court now; not being built along the I-5 corridor essentially because the investment groups who scarfed up the funding realized they will not profit in the intense short term.

So we have to work around, planning stops at the Nissan dealerships and such; which is problematic for two reasons:
1) They only charge off 220v chargers; so a full charge takes AT LEAST 4 hours. (A 440 charging system, which is supposed to go up along the I-5 corridor; should charge in 20 minutes...we haven't found a single 440 system yet.)

2) the Dealers are jerks.

Seriously.

We have stopped at four dealerships in the Portland area, and three of the four had employee-owned vehicles parked at the charging station. I pulled up to the Dealership in Beaverton in pouring rain, and the salesman, who had a non-charging Leaf parked at one station and a customer at the second, told me there was a third station behing the building we could use. We pulled around, and sure enough, there was the employee-drive supersized pickup parked at the Leaf Station. I squooze in next to it; and pulled the 'hose' out and tried to plug it in - but it wouldn't fit. In the dripping rain, I realized the insulation inside the plug was bubbled and fried - possibly because someone else had tried to use it in the pouring rain, too.

So I drove back around the building and told the salesman I had to use one of the chargers in front, which are supposed to be always available to customers in the first place. He moved a car, and I pulled in; and then made the mistake of leaving my vehicle while it was charging.

It was a mistake, because I also left the climate control on, and I left it on because the less you used climate control on the road, the further you can go; so on a rainy, almost freezing day; you want a warm start in the cabin.

Unfortunately, the charging station is where the salesman take their continuous rainy day cigar breaks, so when I returned, my new Leaf smelled like a Nashville rental.

Nissan has a nice product; but unless you can find a dealership where the employees don't drive oversized pickups, don't buy this car.

If you do, and enjoy a student driving experience and you have a large chunk of change to put down for it; and you can find a dealership that sales only Leafs; go for it.

[Jerry]

The recharge cycle is about like this: 110 Volts, which you can pull off the exterior of most buildings built after 1980; sucks 11amps for 18 hours for a full charge.

220 stations, available at the dealerships and in a growing network that includes Fred Meyer parking lots; takes four-to six hours. (This works well for me, because I live close to one, and I felt I could about put down a pretty good chunk of change at Fred Meyers in return, for my wife for Christmas).

440 volt stations available at the power companies and are just starting to crop up elsewhere will provide a full charge in 20 minutes. As of right now, I can't find a corridor that will get me from Portland to either the coast or Tacoma in any amount of time - too long of gaps in the system. So to preserve our sanity, we will likely have to pick up another vehicle - which almost defeats our purpose in the first place.

Long trips - we anticipated flying, trains or rentals. Meanwhile; we are 'students' stuck in Portland. I used to hitch-hike home for extended weekends. At 20, I could always get a ride within five minutes. At 60; I might have to find a puppy with great big eyes.

[clop]

When I saw the title I thought this thread was going to be about the gold leaf electroscope. How that takes me back!

clop

[Van Rijn]

This is an absolute jewel of a short/urban commute vehicle except for the obvious catch: How far will it go?

Not far enough. Not to the Oregon Coast - which is 70 miles. We can charge it to a predicted range of as much as 110 miles; but there are huge caviates. Climb a hill; and you lose range quickly - some is recovered on the downside, but only at 40% efficency. We can make it from Lake Oswago to Vancouver and back, about 50 miles, but if we dally around town at all; we end up holding our breath.

The other problem with range is the climate control system. Turn it on, climb a hill, and that 110 mile range drops to less than 60. Drive more than 55 mph and you lop off another 20%. So what it is like, is being a student again; in a 1963 volkswagon with no air conditioning, a bad heater and only $1.60 for gas.

Range and charge times are the reasons I wouldn't want a battery electric today. Even for regular commute plus typical store travel that would be marginal, considering that I would expect to drive faster than 55 on the freeway and I would expect to be comfortable (we get hot summers so I don't consider air conditioning an optional feature). I wouldn't even try to take that on an extended trip.

[Van Rijn]

So we have to work around, planning stops at the Nissan dealerships and such; which is problematic for two reasons:
1) They only charge off 220v chargers; so a full charge takes AT LEAST 4 hours. (A 440 charging system, which is supposed to go up along the I-5 corridor; should charge in 20 minutes...we haven't found a single 440 system yet.)

2) the Dealers are jerks.

Seriously.

This doesn't surprise me. You aren't buying a car from them, so especially if you are going to another dealership, they aren't expecting to be able to get much money out of you. Still, you might want to send some letters to the company. They might be able to push for a bit better service.

[djellison]

This is the same story I've read again and again with Leaf owners.... the range just isn't good enough to not be a concern and limitation - and the dealers are not offering the charging stations they promised.

Wake me up when we have fuel cell electric that you can fill up in <5mins and then drive another 300 miles.

[Trebuchet]

Jerry, is the Leaf your only car? Big mistake, I'd say. I can see it as a 2nd vehicle for short-range commuting and about-towning, plugged in at home in between times. As a sole vehicle, it's just unsuitable except for a very small subset of folks. I guess there's something to be said for GM's approach with the Volt, although the sheer complexity of the system puts me off.

[PraedSt]

Swappable batteries have got to be the way to go

[JCoyote]

Swappable batteries have got to be the way to go

I have always thought for electric cars to be accepted that is EXACTLY what is needed.

Define a couple types of standard battery modules first. Use internationally recognizable colors/shapes to identify them. Design them so that they are accessed from the bottom of the car. When you need to change out batteries drive over a mechanism at a changing station marked for your battery type and it pulls your battery and installs a fully charged one. Make the battery taller than the ground clearance of the car; this way stealing batteries is nearly impossible unless the car is parked over a pit or you steal the whole car. Batteries are tracked for mileage a couple different ways to prevent tampering. When you exchange batteries a service charge for the electricity is given and a differential handled if the batteries are of significantly different mileages (the station could end up paying you if they only had a high mileage depreciated battery to offer for your new one). Batteries too old are caught in the system and sent to recycling.

This not only allows road trips like we are used to, it also generally keeps batteries at useful lifespans if people change theirs out at least every couple years, and could easily be faster than filling a tank of gasoline.

[Dalkeith]

Yes I can see people moving closer to their work if the range doesn't improve.

[Van Rijn]

Yes I can see people moving closer to their work if the range doesn't improve.

If there was no alternative, maybe, but I think most people would just buy cars that have decent range. Plug-in hybrids might work out, if they aren't cost prohibitive over conventional vehicles.

[Cobra1597]

This is the same story I've read again and again with Leaf owners.... the range just isn't good enough to not be a concern and limitation - and the dealers are not offering the charging stations they promised.

Wake me up when we have fuel cell electric that you can fill up in <5mins and then drive another 300 miles.

Depending on where you live and work, this is a doable car. I live in the Boston area. My daily commute is about 30 miles round trip. Even if I detour way off my normal route to visit friends or family, I'm usually only looking at 50 miles a day. The only times in the last year I've needed more than that were on trips to New Jersey, and I don't drive that anymore. It was costing me $50-$100 in gas for the round trip, and I can get there on a comfortable and safe bus for $30 round trip. I live within 2 miles of multiple grocery stores and pharmacies.

Don't get me wrong, I'd still be very hesitant to have this as my only vehicle. Generally speaking, though, my driving requirements are half of what Jerry says he can get when driving up and down hills with the climate control system on. When you live in a dense area like the northeast US, this car can meet your needs.

[Van Rijn]

I googled "Nissan Leaf range problem" and this was one of the articles I found:

http://jalopnik.com/5780215/nissan-e...randing-owners

One of the bits that caught my eye there:

But early Leaf owners may also have nature working against them, thanks to Nissan launching the car in winter. Electric car batteries hold less energy in cold temperatures, and unlike the Chevy Volt and other electric vehicles, Nissan did not build an heating system around the Leaf's battery pack.

Ouch. That depends on battery technology too, but you can lose a lot of effective capacity with low temperature. That's long been one of the issues with electrics if you have truly cold weather. If you don't have much range to start with, that can leave you stranded, and you really don't want that under bad conditions.

The other big thing they're pointing out is that the range indicator is leading to false assumptions, so people think they have enough range, but it shuts down on them before they get there. It comes down to having so little range that you have no margin for error.

[Van Rijn]

Depending on where you live and work, this is a doable car. I live in the Boston area. My daily commute is about 30 miles round trip. Even if I detour way off my normal route to visit friends or family, I'm usually only looking at 50 miles a day. The only times in the last year I've needed more than that were on trips to New Jersey, and I don't drive that anymore. It was costing me $50-$100 in gas for the round trip, and I can get there on a comfortable and safe bus for $30 round trip. I live within 2 miles of multiple grocery stores and pharmacies.

From the sound of it, I don't know if it would be safe to count on 50 miles, especially in cold weather and if you want to stay warm. Maybe if you know for sure that it's fully charged. I'd also be concerned what the range would be like after a couple of years of charge/discharge cycles. I suspect the replacement batteries won't be that cheap.

[Solfe]

"Avoid storing a vehicle in temperatures below −13 °F (−25 °C) for over 7 days"

That one kills the Leaf for me, I would have to heat my garage. Nice looking car though.

[Trebuchet]

It would have been a viable commuter car for me when I was working -- about six miles each way, leaving some range to spare for short extra trips if necessary. However: I also needed a family car capable of hauling 3 people and 2 cats about 300 miles round-trip pretty frequently; and have become very accustomed to having a small pickup truck. That would leave the leaf as a third car, when I could get by with two. That means paying for a third insurance and maintenance as well as for the vehicle itself. Not very economically viable.

By the way, what's the plural: Are they Leafs or Leaves?

[Cobra1597]

From the sound of it, I don't know if it would be safe to count on 50 miles, especially in cold weather and if you want to stay warm. Maybe if you know for sure that it's fully charged. I'd also be concerned what the range would be like after a couple of years of charge/discharge cycles. I suspect the replacement batteries won't be that cheap.

I don't know where Jerry lives, but he is testing this thing in the winter months right now and his lowball figure seemed to be about 60 miles. That was down from about 110 miles. I usually don't need 50 miles.

Fully charging depends on whether his 18 hours figure is accurate. If it is, yeah, the Leaf might be a problem on days when I'm visiting friends. I'm often getting home after 6 PM and then leaving 7-8 AM in the morning. That only leaves about 13 hours to charge if I am home on time. If I'm out with friends, I won't be home on time. Then again, if I had a job in the city instead of college classes and lab work several cities away, then my numbers would be even lower.

I'd be worried about the batteries after a couple of years as well. I just replaced my laptop battery after a year and a quarter. Apparently charging and discharging every day for classes took its toll. I went from lasting 3+ hours to less than 1.25 hours. It's a lithium ion, like the Leaf.

[Van Rijn]

I don't know where Jerry lives, but he is testing this thing in the winter months right now and his lowball figure seemed to be about 60 miles. That was down from about 110 miles. I usually don't need 50 miles.

He was saying Oregon coast. He'd have to give details, but the Oregon coast generally has fairly mild winter temperatures. I doubt it would be getting down to freezing there.

[Cobra1597]

He was saying Oregon coast. He'd have to give details, but the Oregon coast generally has fairly mild winter temperatures. I doubt it would be getting down to freezing there.

How'd I forget reading that he was driving to Portland, and other areas like that?

According to Weatherspark, Portland has gone below freezing during this season already. The temperatures don't look terribly dissimilar to here in Boston.

[PraedSt]

I have always thought for electric cars to be accepted that is EXACTLY what is needed.

Define a couple types of standard battery modules first. Use internationally recognizable colors/shapes to identify them. Design them so that they are accessed from the bottom of the car. When you need to change out batteries drive over a mechanism at a changing station marked for your battery type and it pulls your battery and installs a fully charged one. Make the battery taller than the ground clearance of the car; this way stealing batteries is nearly impossible unless the car is parked over a pit or you steal the whole car. Batteries are tracked for mileage a couple different ways to prevent tampering. When you exchange batteries a service charge for the electricity is given and a differential handled if the batteries are of significantly different mileages (the station could end up paying you if they only had a high mileage depreciated battery to offer for your new one). Batteries too old are caught in the system and sent to recycling.

This not only allows road trips like we are used to, it also generally keeps batteries at useful lifespans if people change theirs out at least every couple years, and could easily be faster than filling a tank of gasoline.

The electric version of the Renault Fluence is out next year in several countries (not sure about the US). It's going to have swap capability, so we'll be able to see what the market response is for this system.

[Jerry]

It is much more mild in the Greater Portland area than in Boston. - The Coast is a 40+ mile jaunt, so it is off-limits for the summer. I don't commute: I live where I work, basically as a generic dorm parent. The local metro is only a few blocks, so getting to the airport is easy.

If it gets Icy here (and it sometimes does), you have much more to worry about than a dead battery. The locals don't handle snow or ice well - so parking is a reasonable solution - and so is renting for the long hauls.

This is our ONLY car for now, but we are thinking of getting a motor home with solar panels on the top to charge the Leaf while we're gas guzzling...

[Swift]

The discussion about swappable cars was moved to its own thread

[neilzero]

The 50 mile worst case range will work for most cities, but mine has destinations 30 miles from my house, so I would have to arrange a partial charge, somewhere to be sure I will make it home. My guess is: when the Leaf computer decides that the battery cannot be further discharged without damage, your only option is a tow truck. With lithium ion, you may not even notice the slight reduction in performance just before shut down.
I think a 440 volt 60 kW alternator is possible in a compact car size, using the car engine to turn the alternator, except that is working the car engine far harder than average, so motor failures might be frequent, so you would need to charge about $90 to jump charge a Leaf or Tesla for 20 minutes. Might be a good alternative to tow truck in most scenarios. A modified compact car would fit next to the stranded Leaf, better than a larger service vehicle. I'm guessing the Leaf has a 20 kWh battery. The Tesla has a 53 kWh battery for a range of 250 miles at speeds well over 90 mph, but the Tesla costs about $100,000. Neil