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Thread: Over moderation

  1. #391
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    No 'Doggerdan' that is not my view.. but I had better explain.. I Have Changed my point of view.
    Since 'swift' explained the point.. and I concede he 'IS' correct. I should not have shared that view..
    I should have reported so the mod team would see it..So this next bit which is 'Swift again is for the most part.
    How things are here.. Swift said;

    "But you seem to be misunderstanding the significance of my warning (as I believe astromark is). It actually doesn't matter that astromark was ultimately correct. It is not the role of members to publicly question the motives of another member,
    and doing so is a subtle form of attack. As you yourself said, as long as they just are asking a question,
    their motive doesn't matter. If someone is suspicious of another member, they have to Report the post and let the moderators decide (or not) if action is required." end quote..

    Yes I do enjoy a discussion, but flatly deny ever having al terrier motives.. For 'Me' is just not that smart....

    Coming back to the issue of 'Solon'... It's for me simple enough.
    Even tho the ISS does not have windows that allow photo shots into space..
    IT DOES have a few good and useful windows.. Noting those images of auroras.. put up for all to see..

    So it was not over moderation to move 'Solon's' blog.. It was not the question it looked like.

    That this seems to be getting a bit 'Woo woo for me and although I wanted to point to the founding thoughts
    of this forum.. To call out bad astronomy.. To inform the uninformed.. Spread the science.,
    and deal with by explanations and information to the science of astronomy.

    Some times being too politicly correct is just to soft..

  2. #392
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    BAUT has a distinctive purpose, and I see no reason why it should try to conform with other views of what a forum should be.

    Now as it happens I have had two or three differences with moderators (all but one perfectly civil, and I've never been infracted). Looking back at those differences I'd say that in each case the problem as I saw it was not over moderation but (in the context of the stated aims of BAUT) under moderation.

  3. #393
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    Quote Originally Posted by DoggerDan View Post
    If people want to discuss something, I say let 'em discuss it. They might learn something. Isn't that what a message forum is for? If people want to build a repository of knowledge, a wiki is the way to go, not a message forum.
    There is an important and, to my mind, valuable difference between BAUT and most other science forums. And that is that the discussions are constrained to be "sensible". When looking for information on a subject I am not an expert in, I often find links to science discussion forums. On some of them I see information I know is incorrect that goes unchallenged. Or I see a heated argument and have no way of judging which side is nearer to being correct. At least with BAUT, when there is debate, it is mainly about details or interpretation; you can be confident that the basics are correct.

    Yes, there are other types of websites which are just information repositories. But if you see something on Wikipedia and you want to know if its correct or why it is like that or what the implications are, then you can go to a forum to discuss it. On all forums you will get some experts and some uninformed clowns. On BAUT, you can be reasonably confident that you will be having a discussion mainly with those with some level of expertise.

    If you want a free-form discussion where general relativity has an equal standing with the aether, a "push" model of gravity and meaningless metaphysics, then there are plenty of other places for that (basically, all other science forums, as far as I can tell).

  4. #394
    Having perused many an internet forum, my opinion is that Moderation here is flawed, but still better than almost anywhere else, in regards to the TOS
    and stated purpose of the discussion boards.

  5. #395
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    Quote Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
    Okay, there may be someone's personal issue being discussed here, but I feel the "controversial" sections (ATM, and Conspiracy Theories) have been overmoderated of late. I've been urged by others who feel similarly to make my feelings known.

    Yes, there are very distinct advantages to the rules for debate, among which are the compulsion to answer direct questions and to actually make a point. I find those valuable tools in testing claims.

    Lately, however, I come to the Conspiracy Theory section of BAUT and I find little more than a wall of locked threads. It fails to hold my interest anymore. Yes, there is plenty of other Internet, but I was invited to the original forum by Phil Plait himself more than ten years ago, and I have been an enthusiastic and prolific contributor over many years. This forum is a place I used to enjoy reading and contributing to.

    I took six-month sabbatical from BAUT in 2006 to care for my ailing father. I took a nine-month sabbatical in 2011 to focus on a vexing professional issue. When I came back most recently, I noticed a far stricter tone to the moderation -- the result being that very little interesting discussion occurs anymore, IMHO. By "interesting" I mean not only that there are point and counterpoint, but that there may be some repartee. In some threads it seems like there is as much moderation as there is discussion. And thread closure seems to be the rule, often leaving misbehaving claimants to have the last word and precluding further enlightening discussion. The point is not that there aren't other places to go. The point is that BAUT is becoming less interesting to me and I lament its decline.
    what I simply find incredible is that both some mods and users are arguing the point with THE J.U...

    hello how many of you have both worked with and are founding members of the very website you are posting on...

    I havent had the pleasure of meeting him, (met the B.A. in Canberra) but IF such a full on member says (what many other `minor' members have said before disappearing)

    wouldn't THAT make me think - `hang on a second, maybe something isnt as good as it is assumed to be'

    after all we have many members saying baut is overmodded (compared to the `good old days' but when its just some skippy from down under, that makes it less important...)

    but when THE JayUtah says it is over modded- HELLO PEOPLE...

    There are exactly two people on this website that I am willing to refer people to, one is almost nonexistant any more (the B.A.) and the other is Jay...


    Wakeup call to the mods.....

    (When I get the usual high school `we never went to the moo n- and believe me- if you have anything to do with teenagers, that is a very often asked question- most teens have a 50/50 belief in the moon landings from my personal experience)

    I dont google moose or psphpk (or whatever)
    I dont even bother googling the BA anymore

    I point them at clavius

    That alone should be a wakeup call that alls not well at baut

    (and when jay says hang on..)

    well...
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  6. #396
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    what I simply find incredible is that both some mods and users are arguing the point with THE J.U...

    hello how many of you have both worked with and are founding members of the very website you are posting on...

    I havent had the pleasure of meeting him, (met the B.A. in Canberra) but IF such a full on member says (what many other `minor' members have said before disappearing)

    wouldn't THAT make me think - `hang on a second, maybe something isnt as good as it is assumed to be'

    after all we have many members saying baut is overmodded (compared to the `good old days' but when its just some skippy from down under, that makes it less important...)

    but when THE JayUtah says it is over modded- HELLO PEOPLE...

    There are exactly two people on this website that I am willing to refer people to, one is almost nonexistant any more (the B.A.) and the other is Jay...


    Wakeup call to the mods.....
    Have you actually read any of the rest of this thread? Both active administrators and virtually every active moderator has participated in this discussion (as well as many members). As best as I can remember from a quick review, every single point Jay, and other members, have brought up has been addressed. And there actually have been some explicit changes in practice (link, link) and rules (link) based on the discussion in this thread. I'm actually a little insulted that you think we just ignored it.

    On the flip-side, one of the common complaints against BAUT moderation over the years is that we "play favorites"; that people like JayUtah (for example) are allowed to get away with things that CTers or ATMers (for example) can't, or have more influence on moderation and moderators. I have personally worked hard not to fall into that sort of behavior. Jay's opinions about this forum are important, but no more important than those of any of our other active members.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  7. #397
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    what I simply find incredible is that both some mods and users are arguing the point with THE J.U...

    hello how many of you have both worked with and are founding members of the very website you are posting on...

    I havent had the pleasure of meeting him, (met the B.A. in Canberra) but IF such a full on member says (what many other `minor' members have said before disappearing)

    wouldn't THAT make me think - `hang on a second, maybe something isnt as good as it is assumed to be'

    after all we have many members saying baut is overmodded (compared to the `good old days' but when its just some skippy from down under, that makes it less important...)

    but when THE JayUtah says it is over modded- HELLO PEOPLE...

    There are exactly two people on this website that I am willing to refer people to, one is almost nonexistant any more (the B.A.) and the other is Jay...


    Wakeup call to the mods.....

    (When I get the usual high school `we never went to the moo n- and believe me- if you have anything to do with teenagers, that is a very often asked question- most teens have a 50/50 belief in the moon landings from my personal experience)

    I dont google moose or psphpk (or whatever)
    I dont even bother googling the BA anymore

    I point them at clavius

    That alone should be a wakeup call that alls not well at baut

    (and when jay says hang on..)

    well...
    Personally, I would find that blind allegiance to a particular member's opinion or position is less healthy than active discussion and honest dissent.

  8. #398
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Have you actually read any of the rest of this thread? Both active administrators and virtually every active moderator has participated in this discussion (as well as many members). As best as I can remember from a quick review, every single point Jay, and other members, have brought up has been addressed. And there actually have been some explicit changes in practice (link, link) and rules (link) based on the discussion in this thread. I'm actually a little insulted that you think we just ignored it.

    On the flip-side, one of the common complaints against BAUT moderation over the years is that we "play favorites"; that people like JayUtah (for example) are allowed to get away with things that CTers or ATMers (for example) can't, or have more influence on moderation and moderators. I have personally worked hard not to fall into that sort of behavior. Jay's opinions about this forum are important, but no more important than those of any of our other active members.
    I have read all the thread from its first post to its last (I actually have been biting my tongue to not reply since jay first posted)

    I just wanted to add my POV that not `everyone' is happy with the (IMHO) increased overmoderation (as I have made clear last time I was on) and to have what is (again IMHO) such a serious dissmissal not only by the mods but by baut ((not BA ) members was just plain rude

    I seriously wonder if the BA came here and complained if anything would change...

    (and yes I saw the very (minor imho) changes made since then, again I would seriously send any current `moon hoaxers' of which there are far too many, over to clavious rather than here. )


    I first came here at the bad astro bbs, to dispell the nancy lieder garbage, and sen many planet x's over here to `quell their fears'

    these days, I send them to Clavious moon base for the facts, and argue their cases on glp...

    sadly for those that believe that there `aren't any moon hoaxers around no more'

    when the people that are arguing your case find a forum unpleasant to visit- wonder why no hoaxers visit???


    LOL

    :-(
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  9. #399
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usher View Post
    Personally, I would find that blind allegiance to a particular member's opinion or position is less healthy than active discussion and honest dissent.
    so lets google usher and see how you fare..

    google Jay Utah and see the difference?


    look at the join dates for both members..

    look at their post numbers

    see who (has) their face on tv doing the serious moon hoax K.O.


    now who shall I put more faith in...

    (not to disparage (sp) you but Jay has a little (just a bit) more `streetcred'

    in fact, he has `just a bit more' than anyone else here except fraser and phill......



    all mods included....
    Last edited by boppa; 2012-Mar-01 at 08:27 PM. Reason: two words lost in the interwebs somehow... and one came back again who who I am NOT an owl...
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  10. #400
    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    h the (IMHO) increased overmoderation
    You think this is overmoderation?
    http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....11#post1994311

    That guy was given chance after chance after chance to stick to the rules. He didn't.


    This is the simple truth - there are rules. Stick to them.

    Making people stick to the rules isn't over moderation. Period.

  11. #401
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    It seems to me (as a long time member of the original B.A. board, that the current baut wants its cake and to eat it too...

    They want the `prestige' of being assosiated with the original BA and UT boards when it comes to google hits, but when the people who have been here since before `either' became `and', they dont want to listen to to any complaints, all are dismissed with `its our way or the highway'

    it took someone like JU to say `hey, this isnt what I agreed to' before the even minor consetions were made by the mods, before that it was no (language) "worries", business as usual

    I saw recently a complaint by a board member that `there aren't any moon hoaxers around no more' and much self congradulatory we taught them all a thing or two postings

    no its just baut has become a backwater, even a `I was banned at BA' badge isnt worth much these days on the woo woo forums- none of them come here to be banned any more!!

    I know we have `heard it all before' , but every year there are kids that haven't `heard it all before' and in many cases heard it was all a lie- being taught at school

    its just that baut has a really bad `rep' for being nasty, mean and ban happy- and it shames me to admit, that imho, they are (partially) right so they quickly learn not to come here

    (sorry I dont want to be longwinded (too late I know) or be the bearer of bad tidings, but IMHO- baut has lost its way, and the dismissal of the complaint of such a senior member as JU is indeed only the confirmation of what many people thought- between the long term absence of both frasier and phill, and the dismissal of complaints by jay as mostly irrelevant only shows (IMHO) how far off course this forum has drifted
    Last edited by Swift; 2012-Mar-01 at 09:53 PM. Reason: Language
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  12. #402
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    ... IMHO- baut has lost its way, and the dismissal of the complaint of such a senior member as JU is indeed only the confirmation of what many people thought- between the long term absence of both frasier and phill, and the dismissal of complaints by jay as mostly irrelevant only shows (IMHO) how far off course this forum has drifted
    I'm hearing a lot of secondary suggestion that JU had a point about how we should be different than we are, but I'm not actually hearing you say something concrete about how you think it should be different. IMO JU is great, and an asset to the community, and I don't begrudge you your sense that JU is a hero, or venerated member deserving of being grandfathered out of all rules... but no one is above the rules. JU was active when we discussed changing them, and so by the usual operations of any social contract is expected to operate by them, and should voice an opinion if they don't seem to work.

    You've got an early join date too. I am guessing that you expect that you too are grandfathered out of any rules. Hopefully that's not the case... but to that point, please watched the disguised profanity.
    Forming opinions as we speak

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    You know, if you respect Jay so much, you might consider spelling his site name correctly. And besides, since when has how someone Googles been something we should care about?
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  14. #404
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    so lets google usher and see how you fare..

    google Jay Utah and see the difference?


    look at the join dates for both members..

    look at their post numbers

    see who (has) their face on tv doing the serious moon hoax K.O.


    now who shall I put more faith in...

    (not to disparage (sp) you but Jay has a little (just a bit) more `streetcred'

    in fact, he has `just a bit more' than anyone else here except fraser and phill......



    all mods included....
    Blind allegiance (and rudeness) noted.

  15. #405
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    so lets google usher and see how you fare..

    google Jay Utah and see the difference?


    look at the join dates for both members..

    look at their post numbers

    see who (has) their face on tv doing the serious moon hoax K.O.


    now who shall I put more faith in...

    (not to disparage (sp) you but Jay has a little (just a bit) more `streetcred'

    in fact, he has `just a bit more' than anyone else here except fraser and phill......



    all mods included....
    You may slam me and my moderation as much as you like, but if you even hint at another negative comment about another non-moderator member in this thread again, even with feeble "not to disparage" added comments, you will be severely infracted. How do you like that for overmoderation!
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  16. #406
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    JU was active when we discussed changing them, and so by the usual operations of any social contract is expected to operate by them, and should voice an opinion if they don't seem to work.
    and his posts were what?- bored and typing for the heck of it?

    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    You've got an early join date too. I am guessing that you expect that you too are grandfathered out of any rules.
    (No)
    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    Hopefully that's not the case... but to that point, please watched the disguised profanity.
    (again this isnt anything I wouldn't say in front of my mother, indeed she uses that term herself- I dont think you are saying that my mother uses profanities, disguised or otherwise?(pistols at 20M at dawn)
    however it is a point that not `everybody' is happy with the direction baut has been going (I am ashamed that up until now, I have simply pm'd my own displease, but as Jay said, it is not just one person, he said and I quote

    Quote Originally Posted by JayUtah View Post
    This is exactly what I'm talking about -- the devolution from important functions such as dispute resolution and rule enforcement to thinly veiled nannyism. There are some posters who need a tight leash. I have moderated web forums before on controversial subjects, and it's important to keep the discussion on track. But some like me, who have contributed more than 10,000 posts to this forum and maintain a carefully crafted reputation for cool-headedness, neither appreciate nor desire to be treated like unruly classroom students.

    I side with Paul in the belief that part of debate is ferreting out when a poster's stated intent is not his evident intent. Being able to identify rhetorically-linked patterns of argument is part of critical thinking, and that's ultimately what Bad Astronomy was about to begin with. Nothing that an argument that failed in one case is likely to fail again for the same reason is the appropriate answer in a debate. Nothing that someone is merely copying from a third-party source with little if any original thought is the appropriate answer in a debate. Debate is not just clinical point and counterpoint.

    At this point it seems that more moderation is being exerted in shaping the debate rather than keeping it from jumping the shark. If you want to attract the contributions of well-educated and thoughtful people, treat them as such.
    This is the trend I have myself noticed over the 2009 to now period, and getting more obvious daily(to me that is)...

    my answer- well sorry to say I dont have one (and I do appreciate the work the mods do btw- much kudos to them for such a potentially unpleasent and under acknowlegeded task)

    I would like to see atm posters stand by their postings..

    but I would also like to see a return to the more `friendly' days of the B.A. forum as well when this place was somewhere I would actually send someone to ask a question- no matter how dumb it seems to some people

    perhaps just listening to people when they have a `moan' (see I didn't even use that word me mum uses in such a sentence LOL)

    I know that might bring back some of the woowoo's (idt springs to mind) but surprisingly, I learnt more about radio comms during the IDT debate than I did since high school- and I have a ham liscence and work with network repeaters as a living!!!
    Last edited by boppa; 2012-Mar-01 at 11:11 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags
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    takes bag of hot buttery popcorn

    pops open can of cold Diet Pepsi

    ...(this is getting really interesting)

  18. #408
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    but I would also like to see a return to the more `friendly' days of the B.A. forum as well when this place was somewhere I would actually send someone to ask a question- no matter how dumb it seems to some people
    You must have participated in another BABB than I did. The BA's moderation style (there were no moderators on BABB) was to warn once, and after another offense, the person was permanently banned. Or maybe we have different definitions of friendly.

    perhaps just listening to people when they have a `moan' (see I didn't even use that word me mum uses in such a sentence LOL)
    As I said before in this thread, and in many of these threads, not only do we listen to people's complaints, we often act upon them. Now, if you don't like the changes we've made, that's fine. I'd love to hear some specific suggestions on what you would do differently. We will listen; I make no promises that we will follow them.
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  19. #409
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    point made

    :-(
    Last edited by boppa; 2012-Mar-01 at 11:13 PM.
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  20. #410
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    so lets google usher and see how you fare..

    google Jay Utah and see the difference?
    If you insist.... (Sorry Jay!)
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  21. #411
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    You must have participated in another BABB than I did. The BA's moderation style (there were no moderators on BABB) was to warn once, and after another offense, the person was permanently banned. Or maybe we have different definitions of friendly.


    As I said before in this thread, and in many of these threads, not only do we listen to people's complaints, we often act upon them. Now, if you don't like the changes we've made, that's fine. I'd love to hear some specific suggestions on what you would do differently. We will listen; I make no promises that we will follow them.
    seems that some people must have been on another bad astro forum after all, or someone would have the covented `I proved Jay Utah wrong teeshirt'

    ;-)

    like I said before, some members who have been around for a long time have noted the increasing `unfriendliness' of the baut forum, some are quite famous in their own right , having appeared on tv and stuff, others only known in their home towns for being the best sparky around locally...

    how to fix- dunno- got a few sugestions, as many others doubtless have as well
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    I don't know why but my 399 post above seems to have been misconstrued as an attack on Usher (as both a mod and Usher pm'd me about this)
    I want to make it perfectly clear I in no way wished to offend Usher nor disparage another member and if it was interperated as an attack on them, I appologise
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  23. #413
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    no its just baut has become a backwater, even a `I was banned at BA' badge isnt worth much these days on the woo woo forums- none of them come here to be banned any more!!
    Good!! Maybe as time has passed, they've matured a little. Please explain why we should want them to come here just for the purpose of getting banned.

    its just that baut has a really bad `rep' for being nasty, mean and ban happy- and it shames me to admit, that imho, they are (partially) right so they quickly learn not to come here
    A bad rep with people promoting Moon hoax theories and refusing to listen to answers? No one who's willing to back up their claims and politely respond to answers gets into trouble here. If you think otherwise, please back up your comments with examples.
    "There are powers in this universe beyond anything you know. There is much you have to learn. Go to your homes. Go and give thought to the mysteries of the universe. I will leave you now, in peace." --Galaxy Being

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    Quote Originally Posted by Luckmeister View Post
    Good!! Maybe as time has passed, they've matured a little. Please explain why we should want them to come here just for the purpose of getting banned.



    A bad rep with people promoting Moon hoax theories and refusing to listen to answers? No one who's willing to back up their claims and politely respond to answers gets into trouble here. If you think otherwise, please back up your comments with examples.
    unfortunately, the banhappy mentality is far too common here (imho), but chasing away the people that believe in the moon hoax (or others) is pretty much the norm
    rather than the long involved discussions that people like JayUtah were involved in (and I learned so much from) its all (praphased) we went stupid,get over it with a snarky reply in return and whammo- banned

    Jay himself I believe talked about threads being closed before he even had a chance to reply

    my own experience here tonight (as a moon landing believer) left a rather bad taste in my mouth, I certainly wouldnt want to be on the `wrong side' if thats the treatment moon landing believers get...

    All in all- as a very long term poster and lurker, I do believe that B.A (as I signed up for in the first place) has drifted a long way from where it was originally, and IMHO (only) its not for the better for the long term good of the forum

    thats my 2c
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    I just want to point out, Boppa, that Rules 2 and 3, (_including_ the part about hidden swear-words that, judging by your report, appears to have triggered this particular rant) were written by Phil, contrary to your claim. They were, IIRC, never substantively amended since the board was founded, and are entirely consistent with Phil's enforcement on BABB (except in how survivable committing that offense is a second time.)

    Further, as a teacher, I do not appreciate that certain members value their desire to swear over keeping BAUT off the nanny lists so that we remain accessible as an educational resource for middle/high school students, especially mine.

    / And yes, I know for a _fact_ that BAUT already appears on at least one province-wide list in Canada.

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    Well u might assume that, but you would be wildly incorrect, in fact if you want to check the IP addresses, you will see I have been following this thread with some interest for some time...
    (Since Jay first posted in fact)

    You know what they say about assuming things dont you...
    R.I.P. Bad Astronomy

  27. #417
    Join Date
    Jan 2005
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    27,064
    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    Well u might assume that, but you would be wildly incorrect, in fact if you want to check the IP addresses, you will see I have been following this thread with some interest for some time...
    Boppa, I have literally no idea what you're responding to, here. Can you please attempt to make your posts a little more clear? Emulate Jay in that--his posts are always articulate and grammatically correct.
    _____________________________________________
    Gillian

    "Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"

    "You can't erase icing."

    "I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"

  28. #418
    Join Date
    Sep 2003
    Location
    Denmark
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    18,199
    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    unfortunately, the banhappy mentality is far too common here (imho),
    Funny how this complaint seems to be brought up mostly by people who are actually still here, some of them (not aimed at you) after years of being censored and complaining every time they are.
    __________________________________________________
    Reductionist and proud of it.

    Being ignorant is not so much a shame, as being unwilling to learn. Benjamin Franklin
    Chase after the truth like all hell and you'll free yourself, even though you never touch its coat tails. Clarence Darrow
    A person who won't read has no advantage over one who can't read. Mark Twain

  29. #419
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    N.E.Ohio
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    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    JU was active when we discussed changing them, and so by the usual operations of any social contract is expected to operate by them, and should voice an opinion if they don't seem to work.
    and his posts were what?- bored and typing for the heck of it?
    You tell us. Where did Jay post during that time that he didn't agree with the discussion.

    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    (again this isnt anything I wouldn't say in front of my mother, indeed she uses that term herself- I dont think you are saying that my mother uses profanities, disguised or otherwise?(pistols at 20M at dawn)
    So; she and us have different levels of acceptance. Why is that any kind of insult?
    We are just saying that we are more strict for reasons given many times on this board.

    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    but I would also like to see a return to the more `friendly' days of the B.A. forum as well when this place was somewhere I would actually send someone to ask a question- no matter how dumb it seems to some people
    Nobody that I see has had any problem with dumb questions. It's only when they persist in denying and refuting the answer is when the problem occurs.

    Quote Originally Posted by slang View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by boppa View Post
    so lets google usher and see how you fare.. google Jay Utah and see the difference?
    If you insist.... (Sorry Jay!)
    Quantity as an argument? That says nothing about context.

  30. #420
    Can someone please cite an example when someone was banned or had a suspension without having first broken the rules.

    Until someone does that -then accusations of 'over moderation' are utterly false. Period.

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