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Thread: Over moderation

  1. #301
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    Quote Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley View Post
    I'm just curious what it is you want to get out of being a BAUT
    member. Why not use it to discuss astronomy, rather than
    increasingly convoluted arguments about dissent and hoping
    people will think you're a sock puppet?
    "Hoping", Paul? Really? Really?

    I see nothing the slightest bit "convoluted" in Flat Handle's
    post. He appears to be concerned for BAUT, the posters,
    or-- more likely-- both. Is that concern something you want
    to question?

    And just to make things difficult for you, I'll point out that you
    are one of my all-time absolute top favorite posters. One of
    the best of a very impressive group!

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    Tommac said there was little dissent because those who do dissent, get banned or chased out. The official response to his post would seem to confirm this.
    Or they just leave. Not everyone who leaves has been chased out; they wander off because it isn't what they're looking for. And Tommac is still here, despite his near-constant complaints. Which he's still allowed to make. If he doesn't like the fit of this board, and since it's quite clear that it's never going to be what he wants it to be, why should he stay? What's in it for him? It strikes me that it must be an exercise in frustration to know that you don't like something very fundamental about something you voluntarily involve yourself in and to know that there is no interest in making it what you want it to be. He doesn't like how we do things. Fine; he doesn't have to. But why keep coming back and making the same proposal over and over again when he's been told over and over again that it won't happen?

    Wondering who will be the first to publicly accuse me of being tommac.
    Your grammar is better.
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  3. #303
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    I'm not sure what this tells us; I can immediately come up with a long list of organisations that have very little public dissent, but with which you would probably not like to be compared.
    Then I suggest you go back through this fora and look at all the different public dissent threads. There are quite a few, enough to say that there is quite a bit of public dissent, not very little.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    Tommac said there was little dissent because those who do dissent, get banned or chased out.
    Yes, but almost none of those that get banned, get banned specifically for their dissent. They may get banned for putting their dissent in the wrong fora and then, after getting warned about it, doing the same thing. If they keep doing that, then they get banned. Not for their dissent, but for their failure to follow the rules. This after specifically being told what the proper procedure is.

    And since you seem to agree with Tommac, maybe you could exactly define "chased out", since he didn't and I'm not sure how you chase someone out of a internet forum.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    The official response to his post would seem to confirm this.
    Yeah, about that. Go through this thread or maybe this one , or check out this one . Or, for a couple of golden oldies we have this one, from Jan 2009, this one, from March of 2009. Note it isn't the moderators that are calling out Tommac, it's the other members who have seen the same behavior from him over and over and over again. And remember, those links aren't all of the threads he's started with complaints. Search doesn't go back farther than 2008. I understand why the moderators have been as lenient as they have (they've explained the reasons for being lenient enough times), but they have to be extremely frustrated.

    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    Wondering who will be the first to publicly accuse me of being tommac.
    It appears to me that you simply don't have all the information. I'd be surprised if, once you actually read those linked threads, the threads that were pushed to ATM that caused those linked threads, and the reactions of other posters in those threads, you actually thought that there was anything to Tommac's complaints. And, if you do, maybe you could provide specific examples that support your contentions.

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    I'm not sure what this tells us; I can immediately come up with a long list of organisations that have very little public dissent, but with which you would probably not like to be compared.

    Tommac said there was little dissent because those who do dissent, get banned or chased out. The official response to his post would seem to confirm this.

    Wondering who will be the first to publicly accuse me of being tommac.
    I'm not completely sure which post you think is the "official response"; I assume it is this post from antoniseb:
    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    OK, I've had it. Given the your sig line, I can only believe that you are spamming us here. Give me enough good reasons that this forum is better off with you here to justify our tolerating this spam, and do it promptly please.
    I think he is expressing a frustration that a lot of moderators/admins have: people that constantly complain about how harsh the moderation is here, yet are examples of just the opposite. As Moose pointed out, Tommac has been complaining about things here for years. If we were as Draconian as claimed, we would have banned him a long time ago. He is also allowed to promote his own forum in his signature, something that could actually be considered a rule violation (rule 6).

    Speaking specifically only for myself, I find the frequent complaints to be (particularly from people for who the phrase "benefit of the doubt" doesn't come close to how gently they have been treated) for lack of better or harsher word, tiring.
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  5. #305
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    I think part of the issue with the bans that at first look harsh is that the event that is the tipping point is not a banning offence but the last straw. Forrest was a classic case. He was an nice enough guy but was always trying to bleed ATM ideas into other forums and hijack other ATM threads. He did it pleasantly, and always stopped right away when told to by a mod. But he didn't modify his behaviour. And that was the issue - he required a disproportionate amount of moderation and would not change. So eventually the ban was justified. I think he got snarky with someone a few times as well when they pushed him on this. Cannot remember. Either way I remember seeing his ban and thinking "Shame but you had plenty of chances to self-moderate"

  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Flat Handle View Post
    The official response to his post would seem to confirm this.
    The responses to tommac's complaints are starting to get heavily influenced by the repetitiveness and predictability of his complaints.
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  7. #307
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    Quote Originally Posted by tommac View Post
    It is like saying there are only a handfull of people that had cancer in the past are still sick from it.
    I consider that analogy both tasteless and invalid.

    People have the option to behave here. They have a choice. It is thier own failings not to play by the rules. When they get the "argue BAUT" disease, they have the power to cure themselves and choose not to even though the nurses and doctors here give them the medicine that will cure it.

    Cancer patients do not.

  8. #308
    Quote Originally Posted by Gillianren View Post
    But why keep coming back and making the same proposal over and over again when he's been told over and over again that it won't happen?
    This is what I don't understand. He keeps complaining, along with a bunch of probably <half a dozen others. The mod team offer a reasoned response, a bunch of BAUT regulars come and back up that reasoned response.

    So then a few weeks later he finds something else to complain about.

    The latest suggestion of replacing the entire mod team is, imho, the last straw...clearly and fundamental ludicrous. He can not possibly have the best interests of BAUT at heart. Period.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    ...clearly and fundamental ludicrous.
    ...And just my 2 cents to show why...
    1. Who is going to choose them?
    1a. Admin/Founder: That's what we have now.
    1b. Members: Besides turning it into a popularity contest, odds are that the majority of the users (which appear to agree with current moderation) will still choose moderators with the same values.
    1c. At random: Again, most like the moderation, therefore, the values will be generally the same.
    2. Who even wants the job?

  10. #310
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    Just out of curiosity, how did the current mods get the job?

  11. #311
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how did the current mods get the job?
    Through assassination, then by surviving reentry without assistive technology. Not to mention the secret ritual (which I won't mention because it's a secret, so you didn't hear anything.)

    / Seriously, by invitation.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how did the current mods get the job?
    And then Mommy kissed Daddy, and the angel told the stork, and the stork flew down from heaven, and left a diamond under a leaf, in the cabbage patch, and the diamond turned into a moderator!
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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  13. #313
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    There you have it. A moderator is a lump of coal under enormous pressure.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Just out of curiosity, how did the current mods get the job?
    Strangely, some of them were offered it as turn-about for complaining about some specific acts of moderation. Most were offered it for simply being the most active people on the forum that also cared how it operates. Some effort was made to make sure there was a diversity of interests. We offered it to one ATM promoter, but he turned us down. In fact about half the people we offered it to turned us down. It's a lot of work. I can imagine that in the next few years we'll need some new moderators, and we'll guess our way to good choices once again.
    Forming opinions as we speak

  15. #315
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    Strangely, some of them were offered it as turn-about for complaining about some specific acts of moderation. Most were offered it for simply being the most active people on the forum that also cared how it operates. Some effort was made to make sure there was a diversity of interests. We offered it to one ATM promoter, but he turned us down. In fact about half the people we offered it to turned us down. It's a lot of work. I can imagine that in the next few years we'll need some new moderators, and we'll guess our way to good choices once again.
    Nah. I preferred Moose's and Swift's versions.

  16. #316
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    Quote Originally Posted by Usher View Post
    There you have it. A moderator is a lump of coal under enormous pressure.
    The original dark matter.

  17. #317
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Nah. I preferred Moose's and Swift's versions.
    So did I, but I wanted to leave something closer to the truth, so that when the time comes people will know why they're being contacted, and will already have a sense of how they feel about it... but now that that chore is over, let's assume that Moose and Squirrel... I mean Swift have the real sense of the matter.
    Forming opinions as we speak

  18. #318
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    Quote Originally Posted by Strange View Post
    Nah. I preferred Moose's and Swift's versions.
    I agree. Their versions are a lot more realistic than antoniseb's. The give away in antoniseb's version is the statement: ..."cared how it operates..." how silly is that? I mean, it's obvious from the complaints of the vast, overwhelming majority of members that the mods were chosen because of their ability to quickly close threads and suspend or ban someone.









    In case someone's sarcasm gland has been removed or is not functioning, the above is sarcasm.

  19. #319
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tensor View Post
    ... the mods were chosen because of their ability to quickly close threads and suspend or ban someone.
    They also had to have some hidden agenda and ax to grind, so as to keep life around here as dramatic as possible, to distract from the astronomy.
    Forming opinions as we speak

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    Strangely, some of them were offered it as turn-about for complaining about some specific acts of moderation.
    Heh. I resemble that remark.

  21. #321
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    They also had to have some hidden agenda and ax to grind, so as to keep life around here as dramatic as possible, to distract from the astronomy.
    Oh yeah. Missed that. Can't have people talking about astronomy here. What would be next? Telescopes and astrophotography?

  22. #322
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    This page of jibba jabba is CLEARLY off-topic, should be in fun&games, full of threadjacks, ad-homs, ATM, misplaced self-or-not deprecating humor in a serious business, full of veiled or not insults, and SEVERELY UNDER MODERATED!



    I like it.
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  23. #323
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    Quote Originally Posted by antoniseb View Post
    ... but now that that chore is over, let's assume that Moose and Squirrel...
    Moose and Squirrel
    Though I was rather hoping to be Dudley's horse.
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  24. #324
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post
    Moose and Squirrel
    Though I was rather hoping to be Dudley's horse.
    Wait a minute, aren't all moderators more like Snidely?

  25. #325
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    Naah, there are some Members who apparently feel that Mods are like horses.

    Or, at least, certain anatomical parts of horses.
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  26. #326
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    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post

    Solon,
    ...

    But that doesn't give you the right to select which questions to
    answer, and frankly, I think you are being entirely too selective
    anyway. You also need to start presenting some actual evidence
    of your beliefs.
    Of course, he didn't come here to present his beliefs. He came
    here to ask a question. He is still trying to get an answer.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post

    If this is too much work for you, we can just close this thread now.
    But you are the one who asked to overturn a chunk of physics, so
    it is your responsibility to deal with all the questions.
    He didn't ask to overturn a chunk of physics. He asked about
    what is visible from the ISS. He's still trying to get an answer
    he can use.

    Quote Originally Posted by Swift View Post

    Everyone else,

    There was a little too much playing moderator from many others
    about Solon's post, and not a single report about it. I know the
    rest of you know these rules already.
    While I'm quite familiar with the rules, and currently am acutely
    aware of the sword of Damocles of moderation, I find it interesting
    that it never occurred to me to report Solon's post, or that anyone
    else might report it. I'm sure you find that interesting, too.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis

    .

  27. #327
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    Of course, he didn't come here to present his beliefs. He came
    here to ask a question. He is still trying to get an answer.


    He didn't ask to overturn a chunk of physics. He asked about
    what is visible from the ISS. He's still trying to get an answer
    he can use.
    I don't know if that is the reason he came here or not (do you?), but he quickly turned the discussion to his own ideas of physics and the conspiracy to cover this up. Thus his thread is now in CT.

    While I'm quite familiar with the rules, and currently am acutely
    aware of the sword of Damocles of moderation, I find it interesting
    that it never occurred to me to report Solon's post, or that anyone
    else might report it. I'm sure you find that interesting, too.
    No, I don't find it interesting at all.

    "Sword of Damocles"? You know, I can not begin to understand why you, or tommac, or others, who find this place so onerous, so oppressive, continue to hang out here. And no, I'm really not all that interested in the answer.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

    All moderation in purple - The rules

  28. #328
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    So, Jeff, you missed the whole part about how he thinks you can only see stars while inside an atmosphere due to Compton shifting or some such?

    And that's not ATM?
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  29. #329
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    Jim,

    He said that in response to pzkpfw, who in post #24 required
    Solon to explain why he was asking. Should he have refused
    to answer? Should he have lied? Should he never ask a
    question in Q&A unless his motives are mainstream?

    Just because the reasons for asking his questions are absurd
    doesn't mean they should be shunted off into the garbage pit.
    Everyone has absurd ideas, at least occasionally. If Solon
    wants to research his absurd idea, he should be able to do so
    in the main library with everyone else who isn't posing a
    physical danger to others.

    -- Jeff, in Minneapolis
    http://www.FreeMars.org/jeff/

    "I find astronomy very interesting, but I wouldn't if I thought we
    were just going to sit here and look." -- "Van Rijn"

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    point of rockets is to explore them!" -- Kai Yeves

  30. #330
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    Of course, he didn't come here to present his beliefs. He came
    here to ask a question. He is still trying to get an answer.
    It's rather clear that even though he may be here to ask question, he's not here to get any answers other than those that confirms his misunderstanding of elementary physics.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    He didn't ask to overturn a chunk of physics. He asked about
    what is visible from the ISS. He's still trying to get an answer he can use.
    He has repeatedly been given full complete answers to the question, he can't use them because they go against his ATM idea about how light behaves. This means that in order for him to get an answer he can accept within his current framework of wrong beliefs does require the overturning of a chunk of physics, which means that is what he's asking for when he's refusing to accept any answer that goes against his belief.

    This situation won't change until he accepts that he's just plain wrong in his belief about how light behaves.

    Quote Originally Posted by Jeff Root View Post
    If Solon wants to research
    his absurd idea, he should be able to do so in the main
    library with everyone else who isn't posing a physical
    danger to others.
    Yep, but the library isn't obliged to give him a soapbox to preach his absurd idea from.
    And if he isn't willing to entertain the idea that his absurd idea might actually be absurd, he's wasting everyone's time by asking us to be his research librarians because then what he's doing has nothing to do with research, since a requirement for that is a willingness to learn.
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