Fire paste

[Aegnor]

This stuff seems too good to be true. The applications in space exploration are enormous (as well as a bunch of non-space related uses).

http://www.baytoday.ca/content/news/details.asp?c=63

Here is a video

http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/

He says it would cost about $25,000 to coat the space shuttle vs $60 million to coat with tiles.

[Donnie B.]

Well, if it seems too good to be true...

I'd say that if his claims are anywhere close to being true, it could prove to be a very useful material. But as a space shuttle heat shield? There are a lot of questions to be answered.

What are its mechanical properties? Can it withstand the stresses of launch and exposure to vacuum and the thermal cycling on orbit? How much does it weigh, and how much of it is required to protect the shuttle? What would happen to it if it were hit by a chunk of insulation at high velocity? What would it do to the aerodynamic properties of a machine that barely flies as it is?

He also imples that it would need to be replaced for each mission. The material cost may be reasonable, but what would it cost in total, including the application? How do you bake a space shuttle at 200 degrees for 24 hours? How do you guarantee that it's a "good pour", every single time, over the entire shuttle surface?

Of course, some of these concerns might be mitigated by designing a space vehicle around the fire paste, rather than trying to retrofit it to the existing shuttle. It might be feasible to make replaceable heat shielding for an Apollo-style capsule, for example... just slap on a new pre-cast shield after each mission.

[daver]

Well, if it seems too good to be true...
Of course, some of these concerns might be mitigated by designing a space vehicle around the fire paste, rather than trying to retrofit it to the existing shuttle. It might be feasible to make replaceable heat shielding for an Apollo-style capsule, for example... just slap on a new pre-cast shield after each mission.

Back in the days of the HL-10, they were talking about the possibility of reusable reentry vehicles with spray-on ablative heat shields.

[Trinity]

That is so wicked!!! I'm so excited, seriously, this could so benefit space travel.

[Ut]

I donno. Fire paste seems far more usable in building construction than it does in space travel. It may be cheap as dirt -- actually, IIRC, it is dirt -- but the stuff isn't reusable. You'd have to re-tile your space craft after every re-entry.

On the other hand, it might work out well for dropping probes into the atmosphere. Things that aren't designed to go back up.

One of the major issues with fire paste, though, is how it's formlated: Pretty much by feel. The guy who created it tinkered with the mix until it worked, and, at least as of his @discovery.ca/Daily Planet interview/s, kept the recipe written down on a scrap of paper that he stores in a flame retardant safe.

[jami cat]

Yea, too good to be true just like,
Browns Gas was.
http://bwt.jeffotto.com/avail_now/bg.htm

And, of course it's all big secret to get gullable people to invest in another "to good to be true" product without asking "All The Right Questions". [-X

They lie like a cheap rug to get your cash, then they run off into obscurity where they came from.

(I lost the link to the debunking site for browns gas.)

[Iris]

I'll say. This really seems too sweet to be true... Too strange, also. That news article was written in October 2003, what happened to it since then? Why didn't we hear further about it if it was so revolutionary? That's weird.

[Wolverine]

I remember catching this story last fall. While I'm curious to see independent verifications of Hurtubise's claims, I'd be careful not to prematurely dismiss the whole thing without further investigation. The video demonstration is rather compelling, and, if consistency/quality could be ensured, the ramifications could be quite profound for a number of industries and applications.

[um3k]

There's an update here: http://www.exn.ca/dailyplanet/view.asp?date=4/23/2004

[Wolverine]

Thanks for the update. Cool stuff. 8)

[Normandy6644]

I saw a demonstration on TV awhile back. It sure seems real. It would be really really awesome to see it put to use.

[JohnD]

All,
You may have missed from the news item:
"It can stand up to the heat of re-entry to the earth’s atmosphere, and then they can simply wash it off.”

A cold day was bad enough for Challenger. If the remaining Shuttles can't stay out in the rain...........


If it isn't soluble in water, then what does 'wash it off'? How toxic will that be? And if it doesn't just 'wash off', then how will a new coating be put on? A fire-pasted Shuttle could look like it was wearing its' older brother's overcoat after a few missions!

John

[kucharek]

At least, it isn't pink.

[JohnD]

Kucharek,
Bit off topic, but that pink is interesting. Don't know why that jet is that colour, but I saw a vintage WW2 Spitfire painted the same underneath, at an airshow a while ago. This was an unarmed reconnaisance aircraft, and the colour was camoflage!

Seems impossible, but sure enough, when it flew over the show, the pink made it almost disappear against the blue sky. Very difficult to see, unless it turned to show its upper side.

Can anyone explain the effect?
John

[Bozola]

Kucharek,
Bit off topic, but that pink is interesting. Don't know why that jet is that colour...
John

That is a X-15 covered in an ablative coating. It is most definitely not a jet.

Seems impossible, but sure enough, when it flew over the show, the pink made it almost disappear against the blue sky. Very difficult to see, unless it turned to show its upper side.

The colour was intended to blend in with the underside of clouds being the colour used by reconnaissance aircraft.

[kucharek]

Sorry, I forgot to add a link to the caption.
http://www.dfrc.nasa.gov/Gallery/Pho.../ECN-1751.html

In June 1967, the X-15A-2 rocket powered research aircraft received a full-scale ablative coating to protect the craft from the high temperatures associated with supersonic flight. This pink eraser-like substance, applied to the #2 aircraft (56-6671), was then covered with a white sealant coat before flight. This coating would help the #2 aircraft reach the record speed of 4,520 mph (Mach 6.7).

[um3k]

Couldn't they just put a waterproof coating over it?

[Wally]

Man, I tell ya. . . A couple cans of WD-40 and they'd have been all set!

[Irishman]

It's not clear if he means was the paste off the shuttle or wash down the fire paste shell.

If he's talking about using plates of the stuff as heat shielding, then it could be replaced much like tile. I'm not clear from the description if he means it stays liquidy paste or hardens when dries. From the looks of it, if that stuff he's holding is a dried plate of the paste, then using it in place of tiles would be feasible.

All of this is contingent upon more testing of the material.

But what's cool, this is the Bear Suit guy! He built a safety suit to allow him to survive bear attacks, and then tested it by finding a grizzly! That was after getting hit by a pickup truck wearing the suit.
http://www.nfb.ca/grizzly/troy.html

[Laser Jock]

How much does it weigh, and how much of it is required to protect the shuttle?

I think that this the most important question when considering it for the shuttle. It might have better heat protection and be cheaper than the current tiles, but if it weighs too much, forget it.

[Aegnor]

How much does it weigh, and how much of it is required to protect the shuttle?

When dry, the paste is non-toxic four times lighter than aluminum

[kucharek]

How much does it weigh, and how much of it is required to protect the shuttle?

When dry, the paste is non-toxic four times lighter than aluminum

I don't have the exact figures at hand, but this is surely a much higher density than the shuttle tiles. Now, how thick must it be applied to get the same protection? And I really see the problem with getting this stuff fixed to the skin good enough to survive the launch and being easily enough replaceable after landing.

Harald

PS: Found some figures:

http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/...eets/13.4.html
Density 9 lb/ft^3
That's (sorry, I'm metric) 4082gr/28316cm^3= 0.145gr/cm^3
Aluminum has some 2.7gr/cm^3, so said material must have around 0.67gr/cm^3
That's 4.6 times more dense than the shuttle tile material.

[Ricimer]

JohnD, I can't remember why, but Pink is supposed to be the best single color for camoflauge. At least for air and naval craft. One reason you don't see it often: It's hard to be awe-inspiring in a pastel pink.

[Aegnor]

I don't have the exact figures at hand, but this is surely a much higher density than the shuttle tiles. Now, how thick must it be applied to get the same protection? And I really see the problem with getting this stuff fixed to the skin good enough to survive the launch and being easily enough replaceable after landing.

Harald

PS: Found some figures:

http://chemed.chem.purdue.edu/demos/...eets/13.4.html
Density 9 lb/ft^3
That's (sorry, I'm metric) 4082gr/28316cm^3= 0.145gr/cm^3
Aluminum has some 2.7gr/cm^3, so said material must have around 0.67gr/cm^3
That's 4.6 times more dense than the shuttle tile material.

The helmet that he held a torch to while it was on his head had a 3/4 inch layer of it on. He held the torch on it for 10 minutes at 3600 degrees (600 above shuttle re-entry), there was enough left that he could have kept it going for another 5 minutes" even with a bad batch (not fully dried).

How thick are the shuttle tiles?

[kucharek]

JohnD, I can't remember why, but Pink is supposed to be the best single color for camoflauge. At least for air and naval craft. One reason you don't see it often: It's hard to be awe-inspiring in a pastel pink.

Operation Petticoat

[John Dlugosz]

Yea, too good to be true just like,
Browns Gas was.
http://bwt.jeffotto.com/avail_now/bg.htm


(I lost the link to the debunking site for browns gas.)

Maybe http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm ?

[jami cat]

Yea, too good to be true just like,
Browns Gas was.
http://bwt.jeffotto.com/avail_now/bg.htm


(I lost the link to the debunking site for browns gas.)

Maybe http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.htm ?

Thanks for the link.

Browns gas doesn't do squat that was suggested from the promoters, but it's great for um...Blowing things up

Just like this Fire junk is useless for what it's being hawked as.
But it actually may make some good fire proof drywall, since he's states in the video, that this is what it is mostly described as when dry. But you need a moisture barrier, since it seems to not be very water resistant.
Maybe a latex paint additive?
But...
Pillsbury cresant' roll fire dough heat shields....:x Bah!!

[polytropos]

While the style of promotion for the product that sparked this thread is a little odd, there are similar products available.
As an example, I have actually played with stuff called Barricade gel a little bit. It does not have the incredible longevity claimed by the other stuff, but does pretty much work as advertised.

A news story I found on Google about it:
http://www.rgj.com/news/stories/html.../25/20103.php/
and the manufacturer's website:
http://www.barricadegel.com/
One of the best things about being a firefighter is the cool toys they let us have.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

JohnD, I can't remember why, but Pink is supposed to be the best single color for camoflauge. At least for air and naval craft. One reason you don't see it often: It's hard to be awe-inspiring in a pastel pink.

Operation Petticoat

Yes, also why F-117s are Painted Matte Black, instead of Steel Blue.

So what if your Camoflauge is Sub-Par, and Gets ya' Killed; at Least ya' Ain't Goin' Down, in A Pink Coffin!