Established Member
From the raw images section I see an image with something strange to me. this one.
In case that URL changes, the full resolution image is here.
It is a picture of the atmosphere. There is a perfect circle (like an O, not a dot) in it. What is this? I assume it has to be some kind of instrument artifact since I have a hard time believing a storm could do this so perfectly and a shadow of moon should be a dot and not an circle.
Order of Kilopi
From the raw-images FAQ:Originally Posted by harlequin
What are those dark donut shapes?
Small donut-like dark spots in images are actually out of focus dust specks on the filter wheels, lenses or other parts of the optics of the cameras. Because there is no way to clean the cameras in space, more of these spots may appear as the Cassini mission progresses.
Established Member
I thought it was a bunch of monoliths about to turn Saturn into a sun, sooner or later
Established Member
Cassini-Huygens: FAQ
Why don't I see stars in the images?
The exposures needed to take images of Saturn and its moons are still fairly short compared with the exposure times it takes to see stars. If you look really close you can sometimes see stars in images that are overexposed.
Established Member
Thanks. That does make a lot of sense.From the raw-images FAQ:
What are those dark donut shapes?
Small donut-like dark spots in images are actually out of focus dust specks on the filter wheels, lenses or other parts of the optics of the cameras. Because there is no way to clean the cameras in space, more of these spots may appear as the Cassini mission progresses.
I wonder if we are going to have people calling those evidence of [fill in the blank] by those unwilling to consider instrument artifacts?
Established Member
How will Richard Hoagland keep feeding his fat face if he accepts facile explanations like that?Thanks. That does make a lot of sense.From the raw-images FAQ:
What are those dark donut shapes?
Small donut-like dark spots in images are actually out of focus dust specks on the filter wheels, lenses or other parts of the optics of the cameras. Because there is no way to clean the cameras in space, more of these spots may appear as the Cassini mission progresses.
I wonder if we are going to have people calling those evidence of [fill in the blank] by those unwilling to consider instrument artifacts?
Order of Kilopi
As the artifacts are in every image in the same place, they are not good candidates for ufos, domes or crop-circles.Thanks. That does make a lot of sense.From the raw-images FAQ:
What are those dark donut shapes?
Small donut-like dark spots in images are actually out of focus dust specks on the filter wheels, lenses or other parts of the optics of the cameras. Because there is no way to clean the cameras in space, more of these spots may appear as the Cassini mission progresses.
I wonder if we are going to have people calling those evidence of [fill in the blank] by those unwilling to consider instrument artifacts?
Honored Member
Hey, a silly little fact such as that hasn't stopped the HBers in the past, why should it stop them now?As the artifacts are in every image in the same place, they are not good candidates for ufos, domes or crop-circles.Thanks. That does make a lot of sense.From the raw-images FAQ:
What are those dark donut shapes?
Small donut-like dark spots in images are actually out of focus dust specks on the filter wheels, lenses or other parts of the optics of the cameras. Because there is no way to clean the cameras in space, more of these spots may appear as the Cassini mission progresses.
I wonder if we are going to have people calling those evidence of [fill in the blank] by those unwilling to consider instrument artifacts?
Time to check Hoagland's website to see if there's a new, special Saturn section...
:roll:
Established Member
*sighs*
I'm not sure what Hoagland is saying, I'm not reading all of that drivel. Someone else sacrifice themself.
Vulcan Administrator
Hoagland thinks there's some sort of weird hyperdimensional energy that permeates the solar system in a strange geometric fashion. He thinks that it causes the "spokes" seen in Saturn's rings and the anomaly encountered when Voyager 2 crossed the ring plane. He also claims that it was going to toast Cassini when it crossed the ring plane (twice). So much for that hypothesis.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Senior Member
Hoagland seems to be the victim of some weird, inverse learning curve...the more that "he thinks" he knows about something...the dumber he gets!
Established Member
The page in question to me clinch's the case that this guy is no a sincere quack, but is an outright fraud.Hoagland seems to be the victim of some weird, inverse learning curve...the more that "he thinks" he knows about something...the dumber he gets!
1) I think that Hoagland is merely taking a gamble. If Cassini survived (as it has) then he would forget he ever made the claim (unless the spacecrafter later mysteriously died). He would then start making nonsense claims on what Cassini actually found. If Cassini is lost or otherwise disabled then he would claim he predicted it in advance,The ONLY hope for Cassini's survival at this point, in our estimation, is a radical change in the approach trajectory … to a crossing of the ring plane either hiding in the “ring shadow” of one of the inner satellites (like Mimas or Enceledus) … or, crossing much farther from the ring themselves.
sell books, etc.
2) He posted this on June 30! Gee folks, one does not need to be a rocket scientists to realize that by then it was too late to change the course. If he really thought he knew of the fatal problem and wanted to help, he would spoke up long before the day of days.
Those who are actively involved in debunking this guy should save a
copy of this page before he takes it down. When he changes his
tune, then it can be documented. Do not rely on caching or archiving of any site.
Vulcan Administrator
Hoagland covers his tracks:
How the New Saturn Rotation
Rate Saved the Cassini Mission
One brownie point for each error found in this article.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
Unbelievable. Nailing a pudding to the wall is left as an excercise...
Order of Kilopi
As far as the rotation slowing, the original NASA site he's citing says its believed to be an issue about the orientation of the magnetic field with the planet's rotational axis that's causing the variation. The planet's physical rotation has never been directly measured, only the rotation of the magnetic field's axis. In planets where the magnetic field axis (magnetic pole is what I'm reading this as) is substantially different from the rotational axis, very clear and accurate readings about a planet's rotation period can be derived without measuring its physical rotation. Jupiter is cited as a clear indicator of a case where a substantial difference in orientation produces a clear reading. From their preliminary finding, NASA seems to believe whatever mechanism in Saturn that controls the magnetic field's orientation to the rotational axis may not be as rigid as they've believed to date and appears to be moving to a higher latitude where the planet's physical rotation is slower. (Cited were similarities in the structure of gas giants to stars in that the poles rotate slower than the equator).
Heck, his statement that this is surprising to NASA is wrong, there was the Paris Observatory detected differences in the radio rotation of the planet in 1997. Cassini appears to have only confirmed their findings, not something new on its own.
I wasn't it already published somewhere that the slowing of the winds may be a seasonal change?
As far as his statements about gravitational interaction with the moons being total bunk (please, contain your shock), the fact is there is measurable interaction with Saturn's moon's gravitational fields, the first pictures sent back from Cassini indicate that the moons of Saturn perceptably affect the rings. Not that his description of gravity's effects are anywhere close to reality to begin with...
That's just me as a layman sifting through, some of you with more experience and knowledge in the area might dissect it a bit more cleanly.
Vulcan Administrator
Well, this statement takes the prize for me:
First, there have only been 23 leap seconds since 1972, and, second, he commits the common fallacy that the Earth has actually slowed by that amount in that time. In fact, the Earth has not only not slowed by that amount in that interval, it need not have slowed at all since the length of day used is from 1900.Since 1972, a total of over 30 “leap seconds” have been added to Earth’s day length (!) – an enormous slowing of the Earth’s rotation in such a brief period of time
Another thought: if Saturn has really slowed by 6 minutes in only 24 years and if this is a real trend, then it must have been spinning like a relativistic top a couple of billion years ago.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
Haven't there also been a run of years where there haven't been leap seconds added, and that the rate of slowing or accelerating was not consistent? I also remember reading that it could be possible that seconds could be taken back for various reasons.
Aside from that, the Earth's rotational slowing is linked with drag from the oceans, how would this even remotely relate to what's going on with Saturn's magnetic field rotating?
Vulcan Administrator
The last leap second was in January 1999, so it's been over five years - the longest interval since there have been leap seconds. It's possible that there might be a "dropped" second someday, but there hasn't been a need for it yet and may never be since Earth's rotation has indeed slowed (though only by milliseconds per year) since 1900.
Everything I need to know I learned through Googling.
Order of Kilopi
I am not a big fan of RCH, but that counts as an ad hominem.
First warning. Do it again and you'll be banned.
Established Member
Undoubtedly written BEFORE Hoagland even posted the original.
A lie is not an error beyond the trivial sense that it is error to lie. Oh what tangled webs we weave...One brownie point for each error found in this article.
Hoagland wrote:
Here Hoagland is trying to convince people that he could not have written the second piece in advance. I saw the article on Saturn's rotation DAYS before "Cassini 'made the plunge.'" I don't see how JPL can stop people from finding about French article especially given the wealth of electronic indices for such things.If we had had this critical rotational information even a few days ago, we would have written a very different Cassini article on Saturn, focusing more on the long-term Hyperdimensional observations that Cassini can make ... if it survives its double ring plane crossings. But, for some reason, JPL decided to withhold this fascinating information – including the publication of the original French Saturn rotational anomaly observations in 1997, in an obscure Austrian science journal (!) -- until just hours before Cassini “made the plunge.”
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