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Thread: Habitable Zones vs Atmospheres & Geological Processes

  1. #1

    Habitable Zones vs Atmospheres & Geological Processes

    I don't think I am stating anything too controversial with the following when you consider the speculation that Europa may harbour life. I am puzzled by the many references to habitable zones in articles dealing with the search and discovery of exoplanets, for example, http://www.space.com/12918-habitable...fographic.html. There seems to be undue importance placed on an idea, which frankly, seems fairly meaningless.

    Generally, the idea of a habitable zone appears to be based upon three factors:

    1. Our solar system, Earth, its distance from the Sun and the difference in temperatures between Earth and Venus, and Earth and Mars.
    2. Our observations of these three planets, Venus, Earth and Mars, and where liquid water might exist on a planet (based upon our observations of these three planets). Earth being the one with liquid water, so we conveniently conclude Earth is in the middle of this idea of a habitable zone relative to our sun.
    3. Liquid water being necessary for life because that's the way it occurs here on Earth.


    Assuming three to be correct, I'd contend the fact that Venus is too hot, and Mars too cold is more a matter of coincidence rather than reflecting any idea of a habitable zone or their distance from the Sun. The coincidence of the order of hot to cold appears to be blinding us a little to what is far more important - a planet's atmosphere and geological processes with its ability to heat and cool.

    If Venus was located where Mars is, it may not be as hot as it is now, but it would still be too hot for life given its atmosphere. How controversial is that idea? If it isn't controversial, doesn't it really mean we have to dismiss this idea of a habitable zone as meaningless? If Mars was located where Earth is, would it be significantly warmer given its atmosphere and lack of geological processes? If Earth was located where Mars is, would it necessarily be a different temperature or very much cooler? Is it possible that it may be warmer?

    The idea of a habitable zone, as far as I can tell, doesn't fit the data except in a most general way. When thought about in detail the data appears to contradict the idea because Venus is far too hot and Mars is far too cold. In other words, they aren't just a little too cold and a little too hot as a result of being just a little outside the habitable zone in our solar system like they should be if the idea of a habitable zone held water - excuse the pun.

    The important factor is atmosphere and geological processes which must either heat or cool the planet - there is no neutrality in the equation, as appears to be assumed. If this is the case, a planet (or moon) can be almost anywhere in a solar system to be habitable depending upon its atmosphere and geological processes. For example, Europa.

    The search for liquid water only makes sense when considered in the context of a planet or moon ie. not just sitting out in space by itself. Liquid water doesn't exist in space. This is why the idea of a habitable zone seems to become meaningless, because of the immense variables when considering a planet such that liquid water can exist almost anywhere, regardless of distance from a star. It appears what is important is rather the state of the planet, or the state of the planet combined with the distance from a star and its heat - the way the two interact. Without detailed knowledge of the state of an exoplanet, something which we are a long way from discovering given the difficulties we still have with our own planet, the idea of habitable zone is comforting at best, distracting at worst..

    I'm interested to be educated otherwise by others. Thanks.

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    Last edited by Canis Lupus; 2011-Sep-14 at 03:06 PM. Reason: make it more readable

  2. #2
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    Ah, Canis Lupus you old dog (said in a jovial manner - please drop your banhammer!), good to see you on here again.

    It's an interesting point that you make. Habitable zone seems to become so plastic a term as to become almost meaningless, when you have to factor in that there is a zone around the sun, around Jupiter, any other sufficiently large body and there must be a list of exceptions to allow for geological processes & atmoshperic conditions, as you suggest.

    I suppose it doesn't necessarily negate the traditional habitable zone concept but rather create a great deal more possible habitable planets/zones, depending on how much we can know about the various planets we find.

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    The habitable zone is defined by the potential for Earth-like conditions--in particular, the potential for liquid water on the surface along with a relatively transparent atmosphere (for Earth-style photosynthesis). While a thick crust or a thick opaque atmosphere can provide liquid water conditions underneath, the concept of "habitable zone" dates back to a time when life on Earth was thought to all ultimately depend on photosynthesis.

    However, the concept of habitable zone was never supposed to be exclusive--it was never supposed to mean that life outside the habitable zone was ruled out. It was simply considered to be a good place to look for life since Earth-like planets supporting vaguely Earth-like life would be possible there.

  4. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Spoons View Post
    Ah, Canis Lupus you old dog (said in a jovial manner - please drop your banhammer!), good to see you on here again..

    I've been here, quiet, but thought I might raise a leg on the above post. Hope Perth is good with its back to front sunsets.

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    Always good in Perth! Those who say otherwise just aren't trying hard enough to relax and enjoy it.

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    I've got to agree overall. Like Isaakuo said, the HZ was thought up with Earth-like conditions and advanced life forms in mind.

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    The habitable zone was never supposed to exclude the possibility of advanced life forms outside of it either. It's simply considered a good a place to look for life because we know Earth-like life is possible on an Earth-like planet.

    It doesn't say that life isn't possible outside the HZ. It doesn't say that advanced life isn't possible outside the HZ. It doesn't even rule out the possibility of Earth-like life outside the HZ. It's simply a place where Earth-like planets are possible, and we know that Earth-like life is possible on an Earth-like planet.

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    Yes, I think HZ shouldn't be looked at as a theory predicting where life is to be found. It's more like a heuristic rule to narrow the search down a bit, much like the Drake equation. It should be approached more with a use it or don't use it attitude.

  9. #9
    Good article here, related to this thread.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by Canis Lupus View Post
    Good article here, related to this thread.
    Great article, thanks for sharing it!

    Does anyone know why oceans or seas resident within Enceladus would be deemed to be very "young"? How old is Enceladus? I would have thought 4 billion years + like most of the other celestial bodies in our solar system. How did the water get to Enceladus to the extent that it was "water free" for most of its ~ 4.5 billion year life?

  11. #11
    Enceladus poses some interesting questions - at least for me. There might be some simple explanations.

    I'd like to know how such a small body can loose matter constantly, possibly over a long period of time, yet still exist in a stable orbit. At its present rate of loosing water into space, how much longer is it estimated it will exist? Or looked at another way, given that Enceladus is said to be responsible for the water in Saturn's upper atmosphere, and we know roughly how much water there is in Saturn''s atmosphere, as a percentage of water lost into space, Saturn's water can give us an indication of the mass Enceladus has lost?

    Off-topic in my own thread ....
    Last edited by Canis Lupus; 2011-Sep-29 at 03:31 AM.

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    By liquid water i think they meant liquid water on the surface and not in thick ice sheets.

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