Maybe it's not errand for the uninitiated to have their own "theories"? If you enter a boxing rink, you aren't taken seriously if you don't know you are supposed to bring along boxing gloves.
Established Member
Maybe it's not errand for the uninitiated to have their own "theories"? If you enter a boxing rink, you aren't taken seriously if you don't know you are supposed to bring along boxing gloves.
Established Member
Well put but I think ATM is more of a backstreet fight club at the moment, no-one even knows where to get gloves and a lot of the combatants seem to have rolled in from the pub half cut.... :0 Its not BAUT forums place to educate these people, but it might lighten the mods workload a bit if there were clear directions on where to get educated. I'm assuming of course that at least some significant percentage of ATM posters are sincere and mature enough to want to be educated to put up better theories and better defenses!
Order of Kilopi
Order of Kilopi
I at least try to provide links to more in depth mainstream explanations with my posts. I don't always succeed, but I do try. And, I do admit to becoming a bit sarcastic at times.Originally Posted by marsbug
As far as trying to develop their ideas, there are some suggestions in this thread . I believe some of those links are no longer operative, and I believe that the Independent Research section is no longer a part of Physics Forum.
In my experience, the majority just want to push their own little pet theory and don't want to hear that it is wrong. If you don't think so, look at how the majority react when you tell them the physics or math doesn't work. And most of that majority doesn't even have the basic college freshman (or even high school) knowledge of the physics or math to understand the refutations. Even when you provide the explanations.
I try to provide the explanations for the lurkers or those who don't understand, may think the ATM proposal has some merit, but simply needs a valid or understandable explanation to realize that the ATM idea has no validity.
Order of Kilopi
Okay, I've read your post about Jupiter's atmosphere being made of methane and hot fudge, possibly even with an explanation of why you think that is so. But your idea is demonstrably incorrect. What should I do in response?
Established Member
The value of the ATM forum is that the burden is on Buttercup to demonstrate, using some science as a basis, on why it could be correct. It is not on you to defend the mainstream.
Established Member
Tell them they're wrong politely and explain why. It's easy for "You're wrong" to come across as "You're an idiot!" I think this is one reason so many ATM proponents ignore or are angered by responses. But remember, their idea is their baby and you've just told them their baby's ugly.
Order of Kilopi
Both good responses, gentlemen.
I guess I need to explain where I am going with this. I am mostly curious as to what Buttercup thinks should be done to "hear the other person out." Does that simply mean to read their post, then respond to it? Does it mean that we shouldn't contradict them despite any errors or misconceptions we see? How far does it go? What should be done if they refuse, however politely, to that all the evidence says that hot fudge in Jupiter's atmosphere is downright impossible? Do we leave them to their delusions and let them babble on or do we try to correct them?
Order of Kilopi
Bad Post-Doc
Yes, we know that's how it's done. The question is, does Buttercup think that's how it should be done?
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Established Member
Perhaps Buttercup herself can clarify, but I think her question was, why do we have ATM posts/answers sequestered in a specific part of the board, and why is it so rigidly controlled? Why not just let them (the posts) live out among everything else and die a "natural" death if they are misguided?
The short answer is: We used to do that; however, some people were coming away from their questions with wrong ideas of how the universe works or, at best, were getting confused.
CJSF
"In the nightgown of the sullen moon, How the windows lean into the room, In the nightgown of the sullen moon."
-They Might Be Giants
Order of Kilopi
Precisely. Buttercup has an idea of what should be done. I am curious as to what that is.
Moderator
Not just the tearing down part--there is a tremendous amount of education getting done. I know I've learned a lot, and I've seen many testimonies to that.
Many ATM proponents have been provided with resources, as a response to their ATM.I'm afraid that the complete set of pointers would just be back to the educational system, and all its myriad of resources.I submit that what ATM could do with is a better class of ATM theory and proponent.... and to get that the proponents need to be pointed towards resources that will educate them in how to construct a sound scientific theory. Thats no errand for the uninitiated without help and support.
Particularly, to the internet, but they're obviously already there!
Order of Kilopi
::waves white flag::
Carry on, good people.
Carry on.
Order of Kilopi
I'd still like to hear your response to my question, Buttercup.
Order of Kilopi
I dont think the fudge would be hot...
Order of Kilopi
Alas, "making arguments" and extensive explanations is not my cup of tea.
Seriously, I don't have the patience for it.
Banned
i appreciate your honesty. it is very refreshing, especially around here.Alas, "making arguments" and extensive explanations is not my cup of tea.
Seriously, I don't have the patience for it.
(just to be sure: there was no sarcasm in my praise to you)
Banned
surely, you can't be talking about the atm section on baut, right? so far, i haven't seen anything of the kind on this board's atm section.
i second marsburg's observation that it feels more like a backstreet fight club. and a nasty one at that. one of the main atm poster (on the critics side) is virtually always very impolite, extremely dismissive and condescending. check out this thread: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....ield-equations
the op is really trying, only to be dismissed at every turn (no help provided whatsoever) and when he gets fed up he politely requests math, only to be shut down by the mod.
that is the pattern i see in pretty much all atm threads i have read so far.
can you provide examples for your statement?
Senior Member
Did you report the "offensive" posts when they happened?
Banned
i reported Jim's intervention here: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....44#post1935144
which i thought was quite unfair. macaw gets away with FAR worse on a regular basis. there is clearly a mod bias against atm proponents. this is actually a rather mild example. i don't think Jim was altogether wrong with his intervention. i reported the post because it was biased against the proponent.
no response of course...
Last edited by PaulLogan; 2011-Sep-18 at 11:22 PM. Reason: worth -> worse
Senior Member
Then consider me rather mildly convinced.
Order of Kilopi
You've shown that very well in this thread.Alas, "making arguments" and extensive explanations is not my cup of tea.
Seriously, I don't have the patience for it.
If you've read the thread, you've seen how most posters on this board think. We think like that outside of ATM as well. Intolerance enters into it when people waste our time and obviously have no interest in changing their behavior even after they propose an idea or ask a question. Next time you want to cause a stir, keep in mind that some of us know what you're doing.
Oh, I should add:
Banned
This is a gross distortion of the truth, he's been provided with exact pointers to his mistakes, with the correct derivations (from scratch) of the correct formulas, with the mainstream view of the issue, etc.
He's been provided with the math, he's just chosen to stick his fingers in his ears and to continue to manufacture fringe formulas. The same thing as in his previously locked three threads.and when he gets fed up he politely requests math,
The ATM proponent has been provided not only with the correct math but also with the exact derivation.only to be shut down by the mod.
that is the pattern i see in pretty much all atm threads i have read so far.
can you provide examples for your statement?
The proponent has a history of never admitting he's wrong, of generating new diversions every time he's been shown wrong and of producing new errors on top of old errors. His threads are nothing but variations on the same theme : his paper that misinterprets basic physics. Now, not many people are converse in GR, it is a complicated subject and it requires advanced math. The OP is not educated in the subject and this doesn't stop him in showing attitude. This is why Jim felt compelled to intervene. Do you have any scientific contribution to the thread?
Banned
...which they routinely ignore in favor of continuing to push their anti-mainstream agenda. The worst are the ones that have already "published" a "paper" in their blogs. As soon as one of their threads gets locked, they open another one on the same subject where they rehash the same errors as in the previous threads. In the 4 years I've been here I do not think I have encountered one ATM proponent who admitted his theory was wrong. The process is educational only for mainstream scientists in that it teaches us how to deal with people that would never admit to error. That forces us to generate a very wide variety of rebuttals, from multiple angles. From this POV, it is worth having the ATM section.
Banned
You are 100% correct. None of them ever admitted to any error in their "paper".
This applies to about 95%, the remainder would ignore the rebuttals and manufacture new errors on top of the old ones. Whatever they do, they never admit to error.And most of that majority doesn't even have the basic college freshman (or even high school) knowledge of the physics or math to understand the refutations. Even when you provide the explanations.
Nice intentions but, at least from my experience, zero traction. The valuable part is the education imparted to the mainstream scientists in arguing with totally refractive people.I try to provide the explanations for the lurkers or those who don't understand, may think the ATM proposal has some merit, but simply needs a valid or understandable explanation to realize that the ATM idea has no validity.
Order of Kilopi
Hmmmmm. If you're implying I've been engaging in trollish or inappropriate behavior by starting this thread, you are totally wrong.
I asked a sincere question and read the input; was curious for that input.
This is not an ATM thread, and I am under no obligations to "explain myself" (hint: I have a real life away from this computer) just as no one is obligated to post an answer.
Maybe you're looking for fresh blood, a new line of argument, something to entertain you and pass some time? I've disappointed you. You'll have to move on...
p.s. This is why I avoid actual ATM discussions. Sometimes you can't hardly post much of anything serious at BAUT (outside of ATM) without getting demands for explanations and etc.Some people need to get a life.
Member
What does the word 'refractive' mean in this context?
Banned
Unwilling to accept any correction. Every attempt bounces of them.
Banned
an attitude you beautifully and thoroughly demonstrated in this thread: http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....ial-Relativity
where you got into an argument with KenG who was then supported by at least 2 other apparently very knowledgeable posters who all agreed and showed you that you were clearly wrong and you didn't have the maturity to admit it.
note: don't try to draw me into the arguments of that thread. it won't work. i am just using it as an example.
as far as the thread i brought up in my earlier post here is concerned:
i said that i didn't think that Jim's intervention was wrong; i was saying that he and other mods are clearly biased against atm proponents. your attitude in that thread (and in most others i have seen you post) was and is very rude and condescending. or would you consider calling somebody's math "total nonsense" and "numerology" - as you did in post 24 of that thread - or an "simple-minded algebraic approach" - as you did in post 63 - polite?
(and those are just 2 examples; i really can't be bothered reading more of your posts right now).
i am not referring to the scientific content of that tread but merely to the attitudes. you are rude and don't get punished, the op was (mostly) polite and does get punished. that doesn't seem fair to me and shows a clear bias.
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