Apollo 11 Star Chart

[HighGain]

I read a few articles recently about the selling of the Apollo 11/Eagle star chart that took place in 2009. In the articles I read, there were quotes by Aldrin in which he indicated the star chart, this little hand held wheel device, was the most important tool in determining the position of the Eagle on the moon's surface.

Does anyone know if that in fact was the case? Did they use the chart as Aldrin claimed in quotes featured in the articles I read? Someone suggested he may not have used the thing at all and just pumped up its value for the sale by claiming the chart was important when in fact it was not. They got a little over $200,000 for the chart so that seems plausible, but then again you'd think the other astronauts might take exception to making claims like that to score cash.

I would have asked this directly on the other thread I started, but this seems a little tangential and wanted to keep within the forum's rule of staying on topic. Hence I started this thread specifically inquiring about this problem. I never knew they had a hand held chart in the LM until I read about this sale.

Thanks!

[LaurelHS]

Someone suggested he may not have used the thing at all and just pumped up its value for the sale by claiming the chart was important when in fact it was not.

Who is "someone" exactly?

[HighGain]

Laurel, check the other thread. I don't recall offhand who alluded to the possibility. See if you can find it. I'll look myself later, got to run.

[LaurelHS]

I checked. Turns out you made the assertion yourself in post #41.

[HighGain]

Looks like I did Laurel. As I recall, I was responding to Jay there. I had pretty much bought in to Aldrin's claim the chart was the most valuable tool the astronauts had in determining their location. Jay pointed out in # 38 that might not be the case. He said it may have been an off hand comment. I am not so sure it could have been that, an offhand comment, as Aldrin signed the thing with a statement emphasizing the star chart's value in its determining the astronauts' location on the surface of the moon. But I thought Jay's general point was well taken. Was Aldrin's statement about the chart's value necessarily accurate? Maybe not. The most obvious reason for emphasizing and perhaps exaggerating the chart's value under the circumstances would be to increase its perceived value for the sale. I guess there would be other reasons for Aldrin to have gotten it wrong, but that seems to me to be the most obvious one. I would still think if he signed the thing that way they must have made some good use of it up there on the moon. However, it is a little funny as you never hear about the chart. Never read about it outside the context of this sale. At least I haven't. That's why I started this thread. Anybody read about this star chart they carried in the LM that was auctioned and that Aldrin said at the auction was so valuable to him and Armstrong?

[HighGain]

I do not believe Aldrin really did make much use of this star chart, despite what he claimed in autographing the thing. As best I can tell as it turns out, they used the Eagle's rendezvous radar to track the CSM and ultimately find the Eagle's location on the surface of the moon. See the "Site of Tranquility Base" thread, my post, #92 for details and a reference. Maybe Buzz was trying to turn a buck after all. Can't say I would blame him him, why not?

[grapes]

Aldrin was looking for Eagle?

Or they were trying to pinpoint geo(luna)graphic coordinates?

[HighGain]

Looking for their/Eagle's lunar coordinates grapes. In 2009 the Eagle's star chart was sold at an auction. Aldrin signed the chart and wrote above his signature, I am paraphrasing here, it was the most important tool they had in determining their position on the surface of the moon. But one never reads about this chart grapes. That's why I got a little interested in it. If it was important to Aldrin, why don't you read about it anywhere? I found a good reference suggesting the tool that they did use in determining the LM/CSM relationship as well as the Eagle's lunar landing coordinates was the LM rendezvous radar. See my post # 92 at the "Site of Tranquility Base" thread for details. It is very interesting.

[Jeff Root]

Collins was looking for Eagle, but didn't succeed.

They were trying to determine Eagle's selenographic coordinates.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[slang]

Can we see that what Buzz wrote along with his signature? Is there a picture or other somewhat reliable source available? Link?

[grapes]

I was trying to visualize just what kind of star chart it was, and how it could have been effective. Did Collins need to find them within a few degrees, or better than that?

I guess if the accuracy wasn't that important, a custom star chart that was set for that particular date, might've allowed them to get within a degree or two easily enough.

[schlaugh]

An image of the chart can be seen here:
http://msnbcmedia2.msn.com/j/MSNBC/C...p.grid-6x2.JPG

And here's the related story about the auction:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/31952662...nomical-price/

From the story:

The device consists of two plastic discs riveted together. The lower disc shows Earth, the sun, planets and star patterns against a black background. The upper disc is a semi-transparent overlay that could be turned to calculate position.

[Middenrat]

Unkind to cast aspersions on Mr Aldrin's integrity? It would be.
Particularly when an object's 'importance' doesn't stipulate its frequency in use.
In the event of electronic aids failure 'the star chart is the most important piece of astrogation kit' seems a fair assessment.

[HighGain]

You are right in a sense Middenrat, but what else can one say in a sense Middenrat. The guy claims the chart was the most important tool they had in finding the LM and then I discover they used the LM's own rendezvous radar to find the CSM and so the LM itself. I used the term "in a sense" above as I see no reason not to exaggerate the star chart's practical value a bit. If Aldrin wants to believe and does believe the chart played a major role fine. And maybe it did, but as best I can tell, it had nothing or little to do with finding the LM. If he knows this to be the case and wants to push the chart's usefulness to up the value, fine with me too. The guy is insanely brave and a great astronaut. I am not going to think any more or less of him. He was pretty convincing in TRANSFORMERS as well. Not a bad performance there in that one scene. I like him.

[slang]

Thanks schlaugh.

In the event of electronic aids failure 'the star chart is the most important piece of astrogation kit' seems a fair assessment.

It does seem to miss context, doesn't it? Perhaps he meant the most important piece in the auction lot. But if someone paid 200k based on that line of text alone, well... I'd have something to say about that person, were it not for the "be nice" rule here.

[HighGain]

Has anybody read anything ever about the chart outside of the auction's context?

[HighGain]

I cannot find anything really outside of the context of the auction on the chart. The articles I read indicated the chart had been on display at the Smithsonian, but no direct mention of the owner/seller, ? NASA? Anybody know?


The chart was purchased by Stephan Loewentheil, a rare-book dealer who collects Apollo artifacts. He bought the chart for $218,000.

This is interesting. The circular areas on the chart were based on readings recorded by the Alignment Optical Telescope. The AOT was used to track the stars in the lunar sky.

So as best I can tell, they used the chart in conjunction wit the AOT which makes some sense to me.

In connection with the chart's sale Aldrin wrote the following;

"This star chart was the most critical navigational device we used while on the Moon,"

"Accompanying this letter is the actual star chart that Neil Armstrong and I used to determine our precise location just after we made history's first lunar landing on July 20, 1969,"


"Our Lunar Module's gyroscopic guidance equipment lost precision over time. It was imperative to re-align this equipment just after landing in case of an emergency lift-off or our inability to make such an adjustment for the scheduled lift-off some 22 hours [later],"

.
"Completion of these tasks enabled us to carry out our lunar timeline and allowed Neil Armstrong to become the first human to set foot upon the Moon,"

The 270 degree point of the chart features an inscription reading, "LM-TD+2 STAR CHART (A), LAUNCH JULY 16, 20 JULY 20:17:11 GMT.

TD was short for Touchdown. +2 means that the chart had its highest accuracy within 2 hours of landing. Lunar touchdown scheduled 20:17:11 Greenwich Mean Time on July 20.

Pretty cool I think. Wish there was more though about the chart outside of the sale discussion.


Aldrin's signature on the chart reads: "This star chart was used by Neil Armstrong and myself while on the lunar surface during July 20 - 21, 1969. Buzz Aldrin, Apollo 11 Lunar Module Pilot."

[HighGain]

Also Aldrin wrote,

"It is a circular device that has a movable translucent overlay with six over lapping circles."

"The stars and constellations are projected onto a black background above and below lines defined as the ecliptic and the lunar equator. The Sun, Earth, Venus, and other planets are marked as to their relative positions along the ecliptic plane.

So we can gather they had a chart with sun, earth, planets, stars, constellations that provided pretty good accuracy for up to a couple hours after they touched down, assuming they touched down on time, and so they did.

Just a guess, but the thing was probably of use to them for T1, T2, T3 calculations, all within the first 2 hours.

Pretty cool.

[captain salty]

i know it's a long shot but... http://buzzaldrin.com/community/cont.../general-info/

[grapes]

Thanks captain salty, I sent away for the decoder ring.

[Hornblower]

I find it hard to get excited about what appears to have been a routine exercise in celestial navigation 42 years ago. From the technical descriptions it looks like the equivalent of using a bubble sextant to find the position of an aircraft with star sights and realign a gyro compass. It gave them a quick fix while the reduction of the radar and telemetry based positional data was in progress, and it provided a sanity check in case of any problems with the other methods.

To me, the final approach to touchdown, dodging rough terrain while low on fuel and depending on an overburdened computer, was the scary part. Once they had landed safely, it appears that getting a good enough fix on their position for an accurate return to the mother ship was a piece of cake by comparison.

[Jeff Root]

I've told this before, but ...

Aldrin's specialty was astronavigation. I think he got a doctoral
degree in it, even. So I find it amusing that when I asked him a
simple navigational question, he gave me a wrong answer.

I walked into an auditorium, and it was empty except for Buzz
standing near the doorway. I asked him "Am I in the right place?"
It was obvious I wasn't. But he answered "Yes," I was. Maybe
he interpreted my question as asking if I was in the right building.
I was in the right building but the wrong room. I wanted the
theater, not the auditorium. It was at the Space and Rocket
Center at Huntsville.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[JayUtah]

The chart itself is unremarkable except for its obvious historical significance. The six circles correspond to the six detent settings of the AOT's variable optics. With the outer ring properly set, the detent indications will approximate the field of view as seen through that detent. This helps the operator identify the stars that will be used for the platform alignment procedure. It does not locate each star within the detent field to any notable precision. The telescope itself supplies suitable precision, but only after the correct reference star is identified using the chart.

The letter in question was almost certainly prepared by Buzz Aldrin's publicist and signed by Aldrin without much fanfare. NASA pays for the more prominent flight crews to have a staff of publicists and administrative assistants to deal with this sort of thing. It would be unwise to read too much into the details of those letters; Aldrin probably didn't write it.

[slang]

So there was a lot more context, it wasn't just that one single line that seemed so ominous. In fact Aldrin (or an aide) wrote exactly what it was used for, and there was nothing iffy about that description at all.

[Jeff Root]

Well, the chart was apparently used to identify which star was which.
If they couldn't identify any star in the telescope field without it, then
it was essential. But by itself it was useless. Its value was in telling
them which star they were sighting on with the telescope. Just one
part of the whole system, not the most valuable part.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[HighGain]

Thanks Captain Sally, I'll write to Buzz and see if he will tell me what they did with the chart, how it was used. I am assuming like the others seem to be implying that the chart provided general orientation for their sighting a particular star of interest with the AOT.

Even when the astronauts were on their way home everyone seems to be sort of keen on figuring out where exactly the landing site was. Whatever tools they used, it would seem the landing coordinates as determined at the time of the actual landing were not viewed as accurate enough to satisfy those most concerned.

I found this reading part of the transcript from when the astronauts are en route back to earth from the moon.

06 07 33 59

CC Roger. For 64 thousand dollars, we're still
trying to work out the location of your landing
site, Tranquility Base. We think it is located
on LAM-2 chart at Juliet 0.5 and 7.8. Do you
still have those charts on board? Over.

06 07 34 24

CDR Yes. Stand by one. They're packed.

06 07 34 31

CC Roger. You may not have to unpack it. The
position which I just gave you is slightly west
of West Crater. I guess it's about two-tenths
of a kilometer west of it, and we were wondering
if Neil or Buzz had observed any additional landmarks
during descent, lunar stay, or ascent which
would confirm or disprove this. One thing that
we're wondering about is that if you were at this
position, you would have seen the Cat's Paw
during ascent just up to the north of your track.
Over.

06 07 35 18

CDR We were looking for the Cat's Paw, too, thinking
we were probably downrange, beyond the Big V.
But I think that it's likely that that might have
been West Crater that we went across in landing,
but - Stand by.

06 07 36 22

CDR We're hoping, Bruce, that our 16-mm film was
working at that point in descent, and we'll be
able to confirm our touchdown position. We
thought that during ascent we might be able to
pick up some recognizable objects close to the
landing site, and we did see a number of small
craters, and crater rows, and things like that,
which we may be able to pick out after the fact,
but we haven't been able to yet.

So the chart probably did help some initially with finding stars to sight with the AOT and then they kept working the problem with this that and the other thing for some time even after the astronauts returned home to come up with the final coordinates 00 41' 15' north and 23 26" 00" east.

I wonder if Aldrin will write back to me?

[JayUtah]

...

I'll write to Buzz and see if he will tell me what they did with the chart, how it was used.

If you want to know how the chart was nominally used, why not try a documentary source? Or the good people here, who seem to understand it just fine.

..it would seem the landing coordinates as determined at the time of the actual landing were not viewed as accurate enough to satisfy those most concerned.

For what purpose? You tried to tell us before that they needed those coordinates nailed down in order to fly the rendezvous. But on the way home, the rendezvous was a done deal. Doesn't your latest interpretation then just conceded what people have been telling you all along: that there was some interest in finding more refined coordinates than what any of the previous methods had provided (including Reed's radar-based method), but that navigation was okay with what they had at the time?

I wonder if Aldrin will write back to me?

Don't count on him even seeing your letter. The Apollo astronauts receive a great deal of unsolicited correspondence, nearly all of which is handled by their publicity offices.

[HighGain]

Anyone know who the seller of the chart was?

[HighGain]

Maybe the astronaut publicity office has canned responses for this and that. Even if I got one of those it would be fun to see what they say. Maybe they'd send me the same stuff Aldrin wrote when they sold the chart. Anyhoo, I am going to write to him.

[R.A.F.]

I do not believe Aldrin really did make much use of this star chart, despite what he claimed in autographing the thing.

Well, unless you can substantiate your "belief", then it really is irrelevant what you believe.