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Thread: A HLV without a new rocket?

  1. #1
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    A HLV without a new rocket?

    Congress is tearing NASA apart with its porkulous rocket, all the while not giving it anything to put on that rocket, except maybe giant wads of paper.

    But what if we could put together a new heavy lift launch vehicle without going through the expense of a completely new rocket?

    One of the interesting features of the Shuttle stack is the external tank, which is mounted to a pair of solid rocket boosters, which suspends not only thousands of tons of cryogenic fuel, but the hundred tons of shuttle above the pad. That fuel in the ET is feed to the shuttles main engines, and between the five engines, the entire stack is lifted, even though there are no engines on the ET.

    If we did the same thing, mounting anywhere from four to eight existing liquid boosters around an ET, filling it and the boosters with fuel, cross feeding them, but omitting the engines under the ET, we should be able to loft very heavy loads without actually "building" a new rocket. Best of all, that ET, or Core, could be modified to a host of far reaching purposes, employing the standard payload nose, plus the aft end in the studied but never implemented "Aft Cargo Carrier" configuration.

    These boosters, be it the Falcon, Delta, or Atlas, are all either already internally configured as boosters, or are proposed on paper to be. So whatever modifications would be minor, and mostly related to the cross feed function.

    Basically, with anywhere from 4 to 8 medium lift rockets strapped together, depending on the intended payload, any amount of fuel we want to put in the Core, we should be to launch at least a couple hundred tons into orbit, plus the Core for wet workshop operations. We could put a fully loaded Core tanker full of fuel up to L1, recirculation, docking, and power equipment included. We could launch a fully loaded Mars Shuttle, with propulsion units in the Aft Cargo Carrier, covered by a faring, and all the interior furnishings in the nose, just waiting for venting of leftover fuel, and assembly. Theoretically, we don't even have to jettison the boosters. Imagine lofting a core and eight boosters whose only cargo is an aft cargo carrier sporting decent engines and landing struts, and enough fuel to land the whole thing on the Moon. Those boosters could laid gently down, and used as habitable volume for dozens.

    This way, NASA can concentrate on mission specific alterations to the core, commercial space can provide the boosters, and we get the lift we need.

  2. #2
    Where would you put the couple of hundred tons you want to put into orbit? The Aft Cargo Carrier (ACC) is not that large and there is no other cargo bay in the currect design.

    Modifying an ET such that it can carry a payload in a nose cone requires a lot of structural redesign.
    Modifying an ET such that it can support 4-8 boosters requires quite some structural redesign

    It may be easier to just design a new "passive" core for this purpose. Don't forget that the ACC also exists on paper only and also needs to be designed. This is not a sunday afternoon job.

    And where is your second stage? Or alternatively, your calculation showing that you can reach orbit on these liquid boosters only? (I won't ask yet for the calculations showing how they put a core, still full of fuel, into L1. Or those for a single stage to the moon craft, soft landing a lot more than 30 tons...)

    And then there's some wet workshop details such as the limited size of the manholes giving access to the tanks, meaning that any large structures should already be inside the tank when it is filled with fuel.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    But what if we could put together a new heavy lift launch vehicle without going through the expense of a completely new rocket?
    Your description sounds like it has a lot more "new rocket" in it than the one Congress is specifying.

    Besides; any reconfiguration of a rocket is essentially a "new rocket" that needs to go through a rigorous design and testing process.

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    True that. Over a magnitude more so when it comes to human rated rocketry, which tend to be among the heavier things lifted into orbit.

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    There is one easy way to get an HLV without a new rocket. Define "HLV" so that Delta IV Heavy is an HLV.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacKuo View Post
    There is one easy way to get an HLV without a new rocket. Define "HLV" so that Delta IV Heavy is an HLV.
    Well some people here have claimed the Shuttle was an HLV so it wouldn't be that hard. NASA does seem to have become if not enthusiastic then at least willing to consider manrating the ULA rockets.

  7. #7
    But the Shuttle stack was a heavy lift system. If you think of the Shuttle orbiter as a payload instead of a payload delivery system, then it was ~100 tonnes to orbit HLV.

    What I really don't understand is this - if they want a Shuttle-derived HLV so much, why didn't they go for the sidemount option - it's clearly the easiest variant since it offers the greatest commonality with the baseline Shuttle configuration.

    Now they want to develop from scratch the Senate Launch System which, if it ever flies (which is very improbable), will end up having the same ~100 tonnes to LEO capability. It's mind boggling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
    But the Shuttle stack was a heavy lift system. If you think of the Shuttle orbiter as a payload instead of a payload delivery system, then it was ~100 tonnes to orbit HLV.
    Minus about 10 for the engines, and some more for the structure for transferring that energy between components.
    Those engines would be subracted from any shuttle derived rocket anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
    What I really don't understand is this - if they want a Shuttle-derived HLV so much, why didn't they go for the sidemount option - it's clearly the easiest variant since it offers the greatest commonality with the baseline Shuttle configuration.
    Having the weight of such a shroud takes away from the potential payload, plus I'm sure there's some trepidation about having another vehicle where the payload could be in the path of launch debris.
    Although; for a short term solution, I don't see a problem with that (especially since that was an option anyway).

  9. #9
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    Simplest way to get HLV from the shuttle seems to me to still be Shuttle-C - based on the fact that none of the other elements have to have their manufacturing or integration process changed. Assembling a Shuttle-C stack is exactly the same as assembling a Shuttle stack, from the perspective of the other components, until the Shuttle-C itself arrives in the VAB, and thereafter it is very similar.

    Of course, this still raises the question of whether its a good idea to constrain the design of a new HLV based on what NASA currently has lying around. This is a moon rocket, not scrapheap challenge.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Minus about 10 for the engines, and some more for the structure for transferring that energy between components.
    Those engines would be subracted from any shuttle derived rocket anyway.
    A sidemount cargo version would lift about ~70 tonnes of useful cargo to LEO, at least that's what its proponents claim and I think that figure is believable.

    Having the weight of such a shroud takes away from the potential payload, plus I'm sure there's some trepidation about having another vehicle where the payload could be in the path of launch debris.
    Don't use it as a crew launch vehicle then.

    Although; for a short term solution, I don't see a problem with that (especially since that was an option anyway).
    Exactly. It's not an optimal solution, but it's many times better than to shut down the Shuttle programme only to initiate another programme whose goal is to produce a vehicle that will have the same capability and use practically the same components (some version of the external tanks turned into the main core, SRBs, etc.).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damburger View Post
    Simplest way to get HLV from the shuttle seems to me to still be Shuttle-C - based on the fact that none of the other elements have to have their manufacturing or integration process changed. Assembling a Shuttle-C stack is exactly the same as assembling a Shuttle stack, from the perspective of the other components, until the Shuttle-C itself arrives in the VAB, and thereafter it is very similar.
    As far as the SLS goes the Shuttle-C/Sidemount configuration is a non-starter because of the man rating issues, the Shuttle never had truly workable LAS and an Orion/MPCV in the sidemount configuration wouldn't either.
    Why Shuttle-C wasn't developed when it was originally proposed is one of the more baffling decisions in recent NASA history given how useful it would have been in building the ISS. The irony is that one President Bush essentially killed off the idea by specifying the end of life of the shuttles and the other resurrected it with Constellation.

    Of course, this still raises the question of whether its a good idea to constrain the design of a new HLV based on what NASA currently has lying around. This is a moon rocket, not scrapheap challenge.
    I think this where Congress crossed a line. It's their right and indeed duty to set goals for NASA but specifying the means is getting into areas beyond their competence. Frankly it's as if during Apollo they not only said it had to deliver men to the moon by a certain date but that they had to use Direct Ascent to do it.

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
    A sidemount cargo version would lift about ~70 tonnes of useful cargo to LEO, at least that's what its proponents claim and I think that figure is believable.
    And fits with my wide-margined guess.
    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
    Don't use it as a crew launch vehicle then.
    I don't think it was intended to have a crew.
    Plus; not needing to reenter safely, damages are probably less of an issue. But; I'm sure it would be in the back of everyone's mind.

    Quote Originally Posted by Winner View Post
    Exactly. It's not an optimal solution, but it's many times better than to shut down the Shuttle programme only to initiate another programme whose goal is to produce a vehicle that will have the same capability and use practically the same components (some version of the external tanks turned into the main core, SRBs, etc.).
    Unfortunately, without a crew solution, what use would it be? Anything needing such heavy lift is (usually) done in conjuction with a crew. So; we'd still be in the same boat without Ares-1, or Dragon, or any ULA solution.

    Unfortunately, the hindsight says that we should have developed a "taxi" solution before the complete retirement. At that point "C" would have looked good in the short term.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Unfortunately, the hindsight says that we should have developed a "taxi" solution before the complete retirement. At that point "C" would have looked good in the short term.
    And in the HL-20 they had one. The combo of HL-20 and Shuttle-C could have avoided a lot of the current issues in US manned spaceflight. Of course 20-20 hindsight is a wonderful thing and also given their track record you have to allow for the strong possibility that NASA and the politicians would still have made a mess of it.

  14. #14
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    ...the politicians would still have made a mess of it.
    Like requiring it to be launched atop a shuttle booster...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    As far as the SLS goes the Shuttle-C/Sidemount configuration is a non-starter because of the man rating issues, the Shuttle never had truly workable LAS and an Orion/MPCV in the sidemount configuration wouldn't either.
    The shuttle-derived sidemount configuration presented to the Augustine Commission included an option for a manned Orion/MPCV capsule with a workable Launch Abort System:

    http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361842main_1...nt%20Final.pdf

    Of all the options presented, it had the lowest development cost (except maybe Falcon 9), the earliest operational capability, and least technical risk.

    Shuttle Program Manager John Shannon presented this to the commission in this 2009 video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nDGBxP3rYWw

  16. #16
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    [QUOTE=joema;1919001]The shuttle-derived sidemount configuration presented to the Augustine Commission included an option for a manned Orion/MPCV capsule with a workable Launch Abort System:

    http://www.nasa.gov/pdf/361842main_1...nt%20Final.pdf[QUOTE]

    I saw a page in the PDF that claimed it would be safer but the Orion Block II seems just as vulnerable to debris strikes and ET failures as the shuttle.

    Of all the options presented, it had the lowest development cost (except maybe Falcon 9), the earliest operational capability, and least technical risk.
    Which is very similar to the claims made for Ares I and I have strong suspicion that costs for any shuttle derived HLV will rapidly climb in exactly the same manner.

  17. #17
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    Well, we should minimize development costs by replacing the SRBs with a Falcon 9 and a Delta-IV, and side-mounting a Skylon.

    With a 5 segment SRB in Skylon's payload bay, because we can't fund this monster without one in there somewhere.

  18. #18
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    I saw a page in the PDF that claimed it would be safer but the Orion Block II seems just as vulnerable to debris strikes and ET failures as the shuttle.
    I'm not sure which page you refer to, but page 23 says "Probability of HLV LOC with LAS" and "HLV Improves the Shuttle Reliably
    By an Order of Magnitude".
    Now; do I see improved safety? Definitely. By an order of magnitude? I agree, we've seen claims like that before.

    But; just think of some of the shuttle issues you're eliminating.
    Your capsule is very high on the stack. The probability of hitting the crewed capsule will therefore be much less.
    The heatshield is not exposed. Therefore it is protected from a hit (unlike the shuttle skin).
    There is an LAS. Shuttle aborts were much more complicated.

    Plus; I don't understand why you mention ET failures. I didn't think that was a big issue at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacKuo View Post
    Well, we should minimize development costs by replacing the SRBs with a Falcon 9 and a Delta-IV, and side-mounting a Skylon.
    With a 5 segment SRB in Skylon's payload bay, because we can't fund this monster without one in there somewhere.
    Now that's what I consider design by politics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I'm not sure which page you refer to, but page 23 says "Probability of HLV LOC with LAS" and "HLV Improves the Shuttle Reliably
    By an Order of Magnitude".
    Now; do I see improved safety? Definitely. By an order of magnitude? I agree, we've seen claims like that before.

    But; just think of some of the shuttle issues you're eliminating.
    Your capsule is very high on the stack. The probability of hitting the crewed capsule will therefore be much less.
    The heatshield is not exposed. Therefore it is protected from a hit (unlike the shuttle skin).
    There is an LAS. Shuttle aborts were much more complicated.

    Plus; I don't understand why you mention ET failures. I didn't think that was a big issue at this point.
    The Las is right in the line of fire for a debris strike and I'm sorry but even if it was correct being an order of magnitude better than the shuttle isn't saying much, and likewise this being the best SD-HLV configuration isn't saying much in the here and now. The time for Shuttle-C was in the 90's now even if it was adopted for the SLS it would just be a money pit.

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    The Las is right in the line of fire for a debris strike...
    Where did I say it wasn't? I said "probability".
    To date, almost all the previous tank's foam loss was at a level below that of the proposed LAS.

    I also never said that I liked the idea, and I never said that issues are eliminated. You said "just as vulnerable", and that is what I was addressing.

  22. #22
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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    ...I saw a page in the PDF that claimed it would be safer but the Orion Block II seems just as vulnerable to debris strikes and ET failures as the shuttle.
    The heat shield isn't exposed, and (like Apollo) the capsule forebody is shielded inside a boost protective cover: http://www.apollosaturn.com/boost.htm

    ET failure hasn't been an issue. Also such things don't fail unexpectedly, but with warning an instrumented abort system would respond to in time. Even the Challenger disaster gave sufficient warning an instrumented abort system could have responded to. The problem WASN'T that parallel staging made abort impossible, but there was NO abort system. The SD HLV would have had an abort system for manned operations.

    This isn't to say there aren't possible concerns over parallel staging, but since the entire capsule is protected, concerns are much less than the shuttle.

    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    ...Which is very similar to the claims made for Ares I and I have strong suspicion that costs for any shuttle derived HLV will rapidly climb in exactly the same manner.
    Ares I and the shuttle derived HLV are very different. Ares was essentially a new rocket. Despite having an SRB-derived 1st stage, it had totally new flight software, new control systems, a new 2nd stage, totally new vehicle dynamics, etc.

    By contrast the SD HLV used the exact same SRBs, engines, most of the same flight software, same ET, etc. It was essentially a shuttle stack with the orbiter exchanged for the side mount pod. Because of the high degree of commonality with shuttle, it's logical that development would have been less expensive and faster than most other alternatives.

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    I do not understand something. Even with politics, they should like this particular SD side-mounted HLV. Not ideal vehicle, but one would thought it would be politically acceptable (parasy politicians view space as job program, nothing more). WTH? Why it did not been chosen?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Where would you put the couple of hundred tons you want to put into orbit? The Aft Cargo Carrier (ACC) is not that large and there is no other cargo bay in the currect design.
    It would go right on top just like the SLS. The difference would be that all propulsion would be provided by the boosters, leaving the bottom of the Core clean.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    Modifying an ET such that it can carry a payload in a nose cone requires a lot of structural redesign.
    Modifying an ET such that it can support 4-8 boosters requires quite some structural redesign.

    It may be easier to just design a new "passive" core for this purpose. Don't forget that the ACC also exists on paper only and also needs to be designed. This is not a sunday afternoon job.
    It may. This might be a generation ahead.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    And where is your second stage? Or alternatively, your calculation showing that you can reach orbit on these liquid boosters only? (I won't ask yet for the calculations showing how they put a core, still full of fuel, into L1. Or those for a single stage to the moon craft, soft landing a lot more than 30 tons...)
    The boosters would fire all the way to orbit, or at least two of them. The rest can be jettison when no longer needed.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nicolas View Post
    And then there's some wet workshop details such as the limited size of the manholes giving access to the tanks, meaning that any large structures should already be inside the tank when it is filled with fuel.
    Once you reach your destination you can cut your way in. Intertank access is important.

  25. #25
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    It seems to me that the most pressing concern is getting the most straightforward Shuttle derived HLV flying as quickly as possible. The Sidemount option would seem to fit the bill, even though that only nets us ~80ton to orbit, but its affordable, and we can be relatively certain it will be done by 2016, and be wet workshop and aft cargo carrier capable.

    Any further upgrades can come later.

  26. #26
    The boosters would fire all the way to orbit, or at least two of them. The rest can be jettison when no longer needed.
    Have you made any calculations to find out how much tons of payload you could get into orbit on top of an ET, using only boosters as propulsion? I haven't done any calculations on that, but I'm curious what would roll out of that calculation.

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