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Thread: A truce in the SLS conflict

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    A truce in the SLS conflict

    As the struggle between NASA and Congress over the future of a shuttle derived super heavy lift launch, affectionately known as the Senate Launch System, wears on, I think it's clear that we need to balance the will of Congress with engineering and architectural needs, because a perfectly designed, unfunded rocket will fly just as well as one that only has money going for it.

    The announcement of the Falcon Heavy has changed the BEO landscape dramatically, particularly with its ~$100 million price tag. We can do an awful lot with 53 metric tons. LEO, NEO's, Lunar Return, Venus orbit, even Martian moons are all within reach. With that in mind, it's very easy to think that we should just run with that for a while.

    However, everyone knows that sooner or later we will need something more, even Elon Musk admitted it when announcing the Falcon Heavy. The BA-2100 requires a 100 tons and an 8m faring, a Hubble replacement will, ect. More over, Congress, specifically Congresscritters from Florida, Alabama, Texas, and Utah, are demanding it, and that it use legacy hardware from the shuttle era. Their constituents demand it, and one can hardly blame them, it's their livelihood. The problem is the infrastructure and manpower is expensive, whether it flies or not, whether we have a payload for it or not. In any conceivable architecture, the needed flight rate will be low. It also crowds out the fledgling commercial launch market.

    So, how do we reconcile the competing interests of new and legacy space and forge a robust, sustainable exploration program in an era of tight budgets?

    I think we need to revive an old idea, the wet workshop.

    New Space can put payloads up quickly and cheaply. Logistics, fuel, people. But the rockets are relatively small. Faring volume is limited, pressurized volume even more so, even with inflatables. Real interplanetary volumes, particularly surface installations, like the BA-2100 would provide, are at this time out of reach. Musk might have ideas about that, time will tell.

    Legacy space does have its infrastructure issues, but it's also simple, reliable, and massive. Whatever you want to call it, SLS, DIRECT, Jupiter, ect, its expandable and provides all the capability we would need. I really don't think, even with the labor costs involved, that if stop wringing our hands and get to work, it can be relatively affordable keeping in mind that unlike the Falcon Heavy, it would be more capability than the commercial market needs, and NASA would be the sole customer. Therefore it not only needs a mission, but a regular flight rate.

    I propose pressing foreword at a low development rate, with the Jupiter (SLS) rocket, the aim being to leave plenty of room in the HSF budget to fully utilize commercial space capabilities to perform ISS missions, NEO missions, Venus orbit missions, and lunar return sorties before the decade is out. This will delay Jupiter a couple of years to around 2018 for a purpose, to make the necessary modifications to deliver the core tankage to a standard LEO orbit and be capable of maneuvering and maintaining orbit. This will be its primary function, to deliver on a regular basis, 2000m^3 of pressurized volume to orbit for future use. These modifications will include at least two, possibly 3 sets of AJ-10 rockets inset aft, just above the core engines, which will be jettisoned, and either at the intertank, and/or just above the LOX tank to maintain orbit, as well as systems to provide power and access to the interior.

    This will provide affordable volume for a variety of operations, orbital, interplanetary, atmospheric, and surface, for a fixed annual cost. These modules work hand in hand with New Space, providing destinations for furnishing and servicing. And it maintains a super heavy lift capability for when payloads need to be launched.

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    Forget wet workshop, just fly an outfitted tank on top.

    But anyways, another NASA station is not needed nor even a commercial version of this is not needed.. The ISS is still viable and if NASA wants another station, it can buy Bigelow stations.

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    I think the issue here is the largest of Bigelow's hab designs could not be launched by anything currently in the works.
    What does God need with a starship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicone View Post
    I think the issue here is the largest of Bigelow's hab designs could not be launched by anything currently in the works.
    Well not in a single load maybe but surely the Falcon 9 Heavy could get the job done at far lower cost even with more launches needed?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Well not in a single load maybe but surely the Falcon 9 Heavy could get the job done at far lower cost even with more launches needed?
    That won't work for the 2100. It's estimated it will weigh 70-90 tonnes, and that's a single module, so it can't be sent up piecemeal via multiple launches.
    What does God need with a starship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicone View Post
    That won't work for the 2100. It's estimated it will weigh 70-90 tonnes, and that's a single module, so it can't be sent up piecemeal via multiple launches.
    Which unless NASA did decide to buy one probably means the BA-2100 isn't going to fly. I simply can't see the SLS being used for commercial launches, and bear in mind that at present it's only funded as a 70 tonne launcher, anything more is dependent on future funding, so if the BA-2100 leans towards the higher end of that weight estimate there will be no vehicle that can lift it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicone View Post
    That won't work for the 2100. It's estimated it will weigh 70-90 tonnes, and that's a single module, so it can't be sent up piecemeal via multiple launches.
    Precisely. Interplanetary volumes will require a true heavy lifting, high diameter design that will not have the benefit of commercial buyers. That means even SpaceX will require a continuous trickle of cash regardless of the number of flights we require just to maintain the facilities, equipment, and manpower, even if it is less than the defense contractors. But there is little chance a SpaceX core design will have the well studied sturdiness of the ET and anything derived from it, if it where built that way the cost would start to approach what we already have, we would just be reinvesting the wheel. An SLS core has a comparable volume, and can loft all its own refurbishment equipment as well, even while paying the mass penalty for dragging itself all the way to orbit, and launching without foam that can cause issues in orbit.

    It will also not grease the Congressional skids. Lets face it. Congress is holding HSF and its long term benefits hostage to short term benefits for its constituents. Long term benefits won't mean much if they can't pay their bills in the mean time. This underutilized capability of Shuttle hardware is the key to a compromise that will allow New Space to take off and fulfill its potential, while allowing establishment aerospace to churn out much needed volume, and the lifting power occasionally needed. Is $2 Billion a year a fair trade for 10,000m^3 of pressurized space in LEO?

    The only downside is that it kind of artificially caps Bigelows designs to whatever they can fit on a Falcon Heavy (probably somewhere in the 1000m^3 range). But I'm sure they can provide the same textile material for micrometeorite armor.

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    Quote Originally Posted by The Jim View Post
    Forget wet workshop, just fly an outfitted tank on top.
    Its going to happen eventually. The tankage required to land anything big on the Moon is just going to sit under its payload.

    Quote Originally Posted by The Jim View Post
    But anyways, another NASA station is not needed nor even a commercial version of this is not needed.. The ISS is still viable and if NASA wants another station, it can buy Bigelow stations.
    How much is NASA going to spend on the ISS a year for the next decade. And under current plans, how much more for SLS on top of that. Wet workshops render the two redundant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    How much is NASA going to spend on the ISS a year for the next decade. And under current plans, how much more for SLS on top of that. Wet workshops render the two redundant.
    We have a working space station, we have Bigelow planning to launch around 2014, all your plan seems to achieve is getting rid of the space station we do have in favour of one yet to be built.

  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicone View Post
    I think the issue here is the largest of Bigelow's hab designs could not be launched by anything currently in the works.
    Why is that an issue? Where's the requirement that the modules used must be the largest ones available, regardless of ability to launch them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    Precisely. But there is little chance a SpaceX core design will have the well studied sturdiness of the ET and anything derived from it
    Sorry but what are you basing that claim on? For the Falcon 9 Heavy all that is required is stretching an existing core, the SLS or the Jupiter requires much more extensive re-engineering of the hardware, and as the Ares I showed using legacy hardware guarantees neither speed, simplicity, nor low costs.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    Precisely. Interplanetary volumes will require a true heavy lifting, high diameter design that will not have the benefit of commercial buyers.
    Well said. Others advocated EELV but saw the error of their ways
    http://www.bautforum.com/showthread....07#post1875307

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    We have a working space station, we have Bigelow planning to launch around 2014, all your plan seems to achieve is getting rid of the space station we do have in favour of one yet to be built.
    We are talking about 2000m^3. Three times the volume of Space Complex Alpha, well over twice the size of the ISS. An entirely different type of station, where a self sustaining agricultural ecosystem can be established, providing air, water and food for its inhabitants, and actual lunar surface and interplanetary flight experience.

    Its the difference between having your cake and eating it too.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Sorry but what are you basing that claim on? For the Falcon 9 Heavy all that is required is stretching an existing core, the SLS or the Jupiter requires much more extensive re-engineering of the hardware, and as the Ares I showed using legacy hardware guarantees neither speed, simplicity, nor low costs.
    The ET may need a fair amount of retooling for inline flight, but the ET has also been extensively studied for on orbit utilization, it was the backbone of the shuttle stack, and its unlikely that such capability will be stripped, because that would require extensive retooling of the equipment used to make them. Anyone else will be clean slate, and is unlikely to have that capability built into it. Unless its made a priority.

    And again, SpaceX can't use the same economic model they do for the Falcon, because there is no commercial, or even military need at this point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    Which unless NASA did decide to buy one probably means the BA-2100 isn't going to fly. I simply can't see the SLS being used for commercial launches, and bear in mind that at present it's only funded as a 70 tonne launcher, anything more is dependent on future funding, so if the BA-2100 leans towards the higher end of that weight estimate there will be no vehicle that can lift it.

    True, but expandable up to 130 tonnes (possibly). I think what Commodore is stating (and please Commodore correct me if I'm wrong), is that in the future, if we plan on really doing colonization of space larger volumes, which means larger payloads, will be needed. Now, one can contend these can be manufatured off world, but then that begs the question of how we will build the needed infrastructure to design these larger ship/hab structures? Sort of a chicken and egg problem.

    Something it appears we both can agree on is that EELV is not going to be able to handle the load alone, if at all.
    What does God need with a starship?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sardonicone View Post
    True, but expandable up to 130 tonnes (possibly). I think what Commodore is stating (and please Commodore correct me if I'm wrong), is that in the future, if we plan on really doing colonization of space larger volumes, which means larger payloads, will be needed. Now, one can contend these can be manufatured off world, but then that begs the question of how we will build the needed infrastructure to design these larger ship/hab structures? Sort of a chicken and egg problem.
    You see I don't really agree with that premise, it's not bigger payloads we need but cheaper ones. What is holding back space development isn't the lack of a really big rocket, it's the cost per kilo of payload.

    Something it appears we both can agree on is that EELV is not going to be able to handle the load alone, if at all.
    But add in the F9 Heavy may be they can, especially if the mission hardware is designed around that. Bear in mind that as it stands neither the Atlas V nor Delta IV are being produced at anything like full capacity.
    As funded the SLS isn't that much bigger than the F9H but based on past experience with NASA it is likely to be far more expensive, assuming it isn't eventually cancelled like all the other shuttle replacement programs. Designing programs around rockets we have, or that can easily be produced, just seems more sensible than betting on NASA breaking a 30 year losing streak.

  17. #17
    "Precisely. Interplanetary volumes will require a true heavy lifting, high diameter design "

    Nope. You can achieve the same volume as a large single module station by docking smaller modules that can be launched on existing launchers, as MIR did, as ISS did, as Bigelow plans to do with his Skywalker station with BA-330s, and as China plans to do with their station rather than build an expensive dedicated launch system that has little to no other purpose.

    Mir had more volume than Skylab, but was put up by Protons that were in service for other purposes, and who continue to this day to launch at rate that could put ~2 Mirs in orbit a year. The ability to launch large amounts of space station volume far outmatches the actual demand for it.
    Last edited by libs0n; 2011-May-02 at 11:54 PM.

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    Even though you've been here for a while, welcome to BAUT, libs0n!
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    Quote Originally Posted by libs0n View Post
    The ability to launch large amounts of space station volume far outmatches the actual demand for it.
    Welcome, libs0n.
    It outmatches the demand by the U.S. and Russian governments. There are others --both groups and individuals-- with the desire to see such things happen, just not the cash or the political oomph.
    STARGAZING: All I see are the lights of a billion places I'll never go. --Howard Tayler, Schlock Mercenary

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    Quote Originally Posted by libs0n View Post
    "Precisely. Interplanetary volumes will require a true heavy lifting, high diameter design "

    Nope. You can achieve the same volume as a large single module station by docking smaller modules that can be launched on existing launchers, as MIR did, as ISS did, as Bigelow plans to do with his Skywalker station with BA-330s, and as China plans to do with their station rather than build an expensive dedicated launch system that has little to no other purpose.
    So... we will never need anything bigger than 5m?

    I think not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    So... we will never need anything bigger than 5m?

    I think not.
    The question is not "will we never need more than 5m", but "can it be done with something less than 5m."
    STARGAZING: All I see are the lights of a billion places I'll never go. --Howard Tayler, Schlock Mercenary

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The question is not "will we never need more than 5m", but "can it be done with something less than 5m."
    That's how I look at it. To get the functionality, you don't need size, you need equipment and a shell. The volume of the shell needs to be only larger than the equipment by the amount of access you need to it.
    On the other hand, the inflatable is great for stuff like storage, or just "breathing space" for the astronauts well being.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Noclevername View Post
    The question is not "will we never need more than 5m", but "can it be done with something less than 5m."
    And we have it from the horses mouth, a 2000m^3 class hab, even an inflatable, requires a minimum 8m fairing.

    Now, in theory you could scale that down to maybe 1000m^3, to get it to fit on a FH. But then you limit the functionality of the module and the ship it is component of. The more modules you have to dock together the more flexing occurs. The more flexing occurs, the shorter the lifespan of the ship.

    Congress wants it, mission architects will need it, and they can do very impressive things with it with a little creativity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    And we have it from the horses mouth, a 2000m^3 class hab, even an inflatable, requires a minimum 8m fairing.

    Now, in theory you could scale that down to maybe 1000m^3, to get it to fit on a FH. But then you limit the functionality of the module and the ship it is component of. The more modules you have to dock together the more flexing occurs. The more flexing occurs, the shorter the lifespan of the ship.
    But by how much? I find it hard to believe that any critical mission requirements are going to justify the expense of of the SLS, especially as we have no actual mission, and no budget for any hardware. Better to spend the money on mission planning and hardware based around rockets that exist or can be brought on line in short order.

    [QUOTE}Congress wants it[/QUOTE]

    And brushing aside all the spurious justifications that have been offered up that is the only reason the SLS is going to be built.

    mission architects will need it
    You've yet to show anything that backs that up, You've simply chosen one arbitrary piece of hardware and decided that represents some sort of requirement for BEO missions.

    and they can do very impressive things with it with a little creativity.
    And with that same creativity I'm sure they could do perfectly well without it.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    But by how much? I find it hard to believe that any critical mission requirements are going to justify the expense of of the SLS, especially as we have no actual mission, and no budget for any hardware. Better to spend the money on mission planning and hardware based around rockets that exist or can be brought on line in short order.
    And we won't have a mission or a budget until we have a vision of what we want to accomplish.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Commodore View Post
    And we won't have a mission or a budget until we have a vision of what we want to accomplish.
    And yet you've laid out a pretty clear vision in the 'Minimum feasible costs for space travel?' thread without invoking the SLS, so I'm at loss why you're mounting such a vigorous defence of this pork barrel project here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Garrison View Post
    And yet you've laid out a pretty clear vision in the 'Minimum feasible costs for space travel?' thread without invoking the SLS, so I'm at loss why you're mounting such a vigorous defence of this pork barrel project here.
    As I said in that thread, the cost is depends greatly on what you want to do once you get there. That architecture gets us there, and back. But it does little to get us established permanently.

    And thats where abundant volume, diameters, and lifting power comes into play.

    Lets take a look at what happens when we throw the Jupiter arrows into our quiver...

    Falcon Heavy launch: ~$100 million.
    BA-330: $100 million. (BA-180: $50 million, BA-1000(Scaled for FH): $500 Million, BA-2100: $1 Billion?)
    Manned Dragon w/ launch: <$100 million. (Standalone/logistical: $50 million?, standalone reusable lunar lander: $100 million?)
    Raptor EDS/Decent/Depot Module: $25 million?(F9), Lunar: $30 million, FH: $40 million?
    Jupiter: 130: $350 million, 246: $400 million, Standard EDS: $50 million, Enhanced Descent Stage/Depot: $100 million
    Jupiter Class LSS Kit: $50 million


    The more specialized pieces like aeroshields, centrifuge modules, and atmospheric/reusable landers are going to be harder to pin down.
    Now, I fully support using commercial space when the mission calls for something commercial space is capable of. LEO access and logistics, even lunar sorties fall firmly into that category. Resupplying the larger ships does as well.

    But I'm assuming 6-8 Jupiter launches a year, averaging $3-4 billion a year for the hardware and to maintain the workforce. Thats about half of the HSF budget. Sending most of those cores, I will call them hulls from here on out, all the way to orbit for refurbishment frees up the numerous launches and money that would have been spent on many smaller launchers needed to propel cargos to their destinations.

    With those numbers, we could return to LEO with a station larger than the ISS for under $1 billion. (BA-1000 + Falcon Heavy Launch + Manned Dragon + Supply Dragon = $750 million, with room in the budget for centrifuge modules. Such a stack could also serve as the lions share of a reusable NEO or Venus ship (crew of >4, < with a BA-330) with an aeroshield on the front and an appropriately scaled EDS.
    Perhaps the best example. A single J-130 launch to LEO will put more than 2000m^3 at our disposal, twice that of what is possible with the Falcon Heavy, along with all the accessories needed to refurbish the hull or add on. There is still room in the budget for centrifuge modules. I would actually use some of the materials from the inflatables, the LSS, the Kevlar material wrapped around the exterior for micrometeorite protection. A single F9 crewed Dragon launch is required for assembly. Something that big will probably require a Falcon Heavy for logistics. Buts its big enough for extensive agriculture facilities, so its more self-sustainable.

    All in all, twice the station for the same price. I would repeat the process for EML1 and 2.

    The process for Martian orbital infrastructure is also the same. But much more capable

    The surface ops is where this really gets interesting. Launch a two, each with a full descent stage and enough micrometeorite blankets to cover the top. Strap the two hulls together, and mount the descent stages on the ends. Fire towards and land on the moon. Suddenly you've got 5000+m^3 of habitable volume to play with on the moon.

    Mars is trickier with the atmosphere to deal with. But the heat shield, fueled descent stage, and much of your LSS can be launched in one shot. It will land vertically, and we will want to lay it on its side. A second Jupiter will be needed for an EDS. We won't be able save all the hulls, but putting 2000m^3 of habitable volume on the surface of Mars. Again, for the same price, your getting twice the volume.

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