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Thread: Private Space Tours

  1. #1
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    Private Space Tours

    I was wondering what everyones thoughts were on private space exploration?

    I think it will become the new internet, if allowed to and funded well enough.

    I keep hearing people refer to you would need a lot of money, but let me ask you something. How much would you pay to get to go into space? This is something many of us litterally only dream about, but with private space ventures it's a serious possibility.

    I for one can't wait for the chance, and plane to one day take a ride outside our world. :P :P :P

  2. #2
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    I actually doubt it. The cost of doing it currently is way to high so that only the very rich would be able to afford it, and most of those that would really like to go aren't multi-millionaires. And that's the rub. Private companies won't touch it because it isn't worth it, and Governments won't do it, except Russia perhaps with a few more one offs on scheduled flights, because they wouldn't be willing to fund a private company, nor spend the huge amount to do it themselves and face losing the votes it would cost.

  3. #3
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    Re: Private Space Tours

    Quote Originally Posted by Planetside
    I think it will become the new internet, if allowed to and funded well enough.
    The only problem with that analogy is that the internet was built on an existing infastructure of phone lines and an increasing popular PC market.

    The russian tour company has an advantage with the Soyuz vehicles and a place to go (ISS).

    So for a private business to start from scratch would be difficult, but we'll see what Mr. Rhutan will come up with.

  4. #4
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    I'd be willing to pay $50,000 for a trip in space

  5. #5
    On a related topic:

    http://www.newscientist.com/news/news.jsp?id=ns99994994

    Won't be long until there is a private company offering trips into space, though only sub orbital at the moment....

  6. #6
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    I just don't see how the private sector can make any money from doing this. Russia is probably collecting a tidy profit, but they've already paid all the development costs for their booster and spacecraft. Unless Paul Allen or someone similar pays for all the R&D as a vanity project, or NASA sells off a couple of used shuttles, I don't think it's going to happen.

    I'd like to see the classifed ads for the used shuttles though (One owner, runs well, driven by a little old lady to take her groceries to the ISS...)

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    Currently it costs US$4,500 per kg to put humans in orbit (slightly less if the ride is only sub-orbital). For me that cost is US$2.5M.

    Even if the cost per kg is cut by an order of magnitude it would still be way too expensive for me to consider. The cost per kg would have to decreased by 2 orders of magnitude for civilian space flight to be considered viable by the general population of the 1st-world countries.

    Economies of scale might cut the cost per kg by a factor of 2 to 5, but that is not enough. Lifting restrictions on space-grade, high reliability, radiation hardened components might cut costs by a factor of 2, but I would not take the risk flying in a spacecraft built to those specifications.

    Some major technological breakthroughs in propulsion must be accomplished before spaceflight is available to more of the general population. Sorry folks, those are the hard facts.

  8. #8
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    Quote Originally Posted by Crazieman
    I'd be willing to pay $50,000 for a trip in space
    I'm guessing the capsule to take you up and bring you back would weigh about a ton, so you're talking maybe $50/kg--that's about three orders of magnitude off from the current prices.

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    $10,000,000 reasons that have motivated 26 companies to try and attain this. Orbit, maybe not... but I would pay 50k for a view like that. I don't think these companies would be trying to achieve this if the 10m wasn't going to cover costs. Lastly once the model has been made it will become cheaper. I might have to wait a few years for the price to come down, but it will be worth it. I feel confident space visits will be here & financially feasable within 10-15 years.

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    Suborbital flights are a lot cheaper than orbital ones; it may be that the companies can find enough customers to be profitable, but I think most of them are doing it for the glory.

  11. #11
    I can maybe see FedEx using unmanned suborbital craft for deliveries within 50 years. Tourism, though, probably wouldn't be profitable even then.

    "FedEx: When it absolutely, positively, needs to be there in twenty minutes."

  12. #12
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    Actually, as the technology gets improved upon and cheapened, I think you'll see it eventually work it's way down to be affordable for most everyone. Well, affordable in the same sense that air travel is. I think you'll see a fair number of suborbital flights for long distance hops around the globe.

    Wanna go from New York to Tokyo for that major meeting? Hop on your plane in the afternoon in New York, get to Tokyo, attend the early morning meeting there, then be back in New York that meeting for your kid's bday party. :-)

    I doubt it would be that cheap within 20-30 years, but maybe within 30-40 it will be. Look at air travel. How many people thought THAT would be affordable for the common man when people were flying around in biplanes that tended to fall apart as often as not?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar28
    Wanna go from New York to Tokyo for that major meeting? Hop on your plane in the afternoon in New York, get to Tokyo, attend the early morning meeting there, then be back in New York that meeting for your kid's bday party. :-)
    Umm, maybe. Someone will likely have to make some major improvements in airsick drugs in the meantime.

    A skip trajectory (an updated version of the Sanger bomber) would have a lower energy requirement, a reduced TPS system, and a vastly increased need for the anti-nausea drugs.

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    It boils down to the bucks. The Concord is a good example of that issue.

    Still, Asia is growing as a tremondus trade partner so semi-frictionless sub-orbital 12,000 mile hops in a couple of hours would be great (at the right price).

    [Note: if you know anyone going up, I have a small S.A.D. that needs someone up there to operate and determine something for me]
    We know time flies, we just can't see its wings.

  15. #15
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    Hey good responses by everyone!

    I tend to look at things and ask why not. I was thinking that the privatizing of space would lower prices, increase competition and get these companies interested in being the first private company to give space rides.

    The pricing structure would be funny:

    $5000 per person, $3000 for kids or elderly.

    $1000 per UFO photo, screened and brushed out by NASA.

  16. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Planetside
    Hey good responses by everyone!

    I tend to look at things and ask why not. I was thinking that the privatizing of space would lower prices, increase competition and get these companies interested in being the first private company to give space rides.

    The pricing structure would be funny:

    $5000 per person, $3000 for kids or elderly.

    $1000 per UFO photo, screened and brushed out by NASA.
    That isn't feasible.

    Here, assuming you could build your space plane for $500M let's have a look at how long it would take to pay it off.

    Currently the Shuttle can carry 7 people all crew, but let's say that your space plane can carry 30 paying passangers.

    We'll say that a launch costs you the rediculously low figure of $500k to have your crew paid, the flight techs check the spacecraft (remember safety is a bigger thing here then at NASA because you have paying passangers and killing them ruins your business) all the flight control people, fuel, etc.

    Okay we are going to charge $50,000 a ride. (That's 10 times your figures Planetside) so that nets us $1.5M per trip.

    Our expenses are $500k so we have a profit of $1M per trip.

    To pay off our plane and start making a profit we need to launch 500 times.

    So, how often can we launch? Well assuming a 3 day trip, then the rest of the week to get the plane back, strip it fix problems service and get it back to the launch pad in another 2, that gives us a 3 week launch period and with 52 weeks in the year thats 17 launches a year. Divide 500 by 17 and we get a grand total of......


    29.4 years.


    Now my figures are on the conservative side, but it shows the point. What company is going to wait 30 odd years to show a profit?????

    Note that this doesn't include the fact that you'd most likely have had to replace your space plane inside that 30 year period anyways meaning you'd never make a profit.

  17. #17
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    Oh crap I don't know how much it would cost. What I wrote were just guesses. Try not to take me to seriously

  18. #18
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    Well, yeah. Mine were "guesses too" because I was aiming low.

    The Space Shuttle Endeavour cost $2.1 Billion, so........

  19. #19
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    Interesting article on who is looking into sub-orbital space. This thread has really got me looking for good info on how feasable this might be and what kind of time frame we're looking at. The more I read, the more convinced I am becoming this is going to be here sooner than later. Either way it will be around in my lifetime for sure and I will sell my plasma (and the wife's too) for 10 years if needed to go! :wink:

    Oh I almost forgot, I have contacted the PR folks of most of the companies participating in the X prize asking for any information involving costs, both R&D as well as expected trip costs. I am not expecting much will come of it, but nothing ventured...

  20. #20
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    Ultimately, I would expect these craft to be as safe and need no more maintenance than current commercial jetliners. Not to mention an ability to carry more passengers. If you could carry 300 passengers instead of 30, your costs go up somewhat, but the cost per passenger goes down.

    It WILL happen. Maybe not in the next few years, probably not even in the next couple of decades, but it will happen (hopefully with the lifetimes of some of the younger of us on here).

  21. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Avatar28
    Ultimately, I would expect these craft to be as safe and need no more maintenance than current commercial jetliners. Not to mention an ability to carry more passengers. If you could carry 300 passengers instead of 30, your costs go up somewhat, but the cost per passenger goes down.

    It WILL happen. Maybe not in the next few years, probably not even in the next couple of decades, but it will happen (hopefully with the lifetimes of some of the younger of us on here).
    I would spend up to 50K. I hope to be around then. 8-[

  22. #22
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    I have received 2 very awesome responses. I sent the e-mails at about 0500 my time and of course forgot to ask if I could paste their response in this thread. #-o I am not sure express permission is needed, but figured I would be safe.

    I sent them both a link to the Board/Thread and asked for permission to put their responses here. So hopefully I can post them later today.

  23. #23
    Yeah, the BA asks that you get permission first. Good call. :wink:

  24. #24
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    OK, I have 2 responses saying I can post their responses and am still waiting on a third to reply. Verbatim copy.

    Quote Originally Posted by IL Aerospace Technologies
    Walter,

    I appreciate the question. You are correct, there are no exact figures in which one can draw any kind of solid conclusion. Most of the research on this subject is at least 2-3 years old (check out www.futron.com). We are perhaps the only X Prize team who's continuing to conduct extensive market research coupled with the demographics and enabling technologies involved. Based on our studies, the cost of sub-orbital joyrides will far exceed the wildly publicized figure of $100K per ticket. We put this number starting at around $400-500K with a modest drop in the following years. This estimate is based on the massive operating costs involved (insurance, training of passengers, logistics, consumable items, marketing/PR, etc.), which will also exceed the $100K figure per launch. All other independent studies failed to acknowledge these hidden costs). This drastically reduces the potential market to just a few hundred mega-wealthy individuals worldwide, which any private space company will have to compete fearlessly for a peace of this small pie. This market although quite small will exist. Take for instance Mount Everest climbers, it costs $50,000 to get a license to climb it (not to mention all travel and logistical expenses), there is a five-year waiting list and a one-in-five chance that you won’t make it back alive, and still there are over 200 attempts each year.

    We believe that our numbers are quite conservative, the real figures will only be known once sub-orbital vehicles start to fly on a routine basis and not just during test flights. Space tourism can be a viable business venture if executed flawlessly. And yes if you are not a high-net worth individual, you will have to sell most of your assets to fly in space.

    I hope this helps...

    Dov Chartarifsky
    Founder & CEO
    IL Aerospace Technologies

  25. #25
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    Second post. Verbatim copy. I am going to look at the pdf file and see if it's feasible to copy it as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bristol Spaceplanes
    Walter,

    May I suggest that you get a copy of my book 'Spaceflight Revolution',
    published by Imperial College Press; reviews at Amazon.com. This gives
    cost estimates for space tourism in some detail, more or less from first
    principles. Conclusion is that it is probable that in 15 years around one
    million folk per year will be visiting space hotels at a cost of some USD
    20,000.

    I have attached a short article of the same title that is in effect a
    summary and update of the book.

    I'd be very interested in what you (and your Astronomy Board) think of this
    analysis.

    I hope that this helps. Please get back in touch if you have further
    questions.

    Meanwhile, don't sell your house!

    Regards,

    David Ashford

  26. #26
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    The pdf file is really nice complete with 7-8 color photos. I am going to maybe put it on my webpage and link to it later this afternoon. If anyone wants it I will e-mail it to you. Just pm me with your e-mail addy if you don't want it posted on the boards. Here is the file Verbatim. (No pics, sorry.) I also need to warn you it is possible that paragraph markers were misplaced as the file was in 3 columns & I needed to put it into one for this forum. However the words are all here and not touched.


    Quote Originally Posted by David Ashford of Bristol Spaceplanes
    Spaceflight Revolution.

    A transformation of spaceflight is poised on the edge of liftoff. Within prehaps 15 years, the cost of sending people into orbit could well decrease a thousand-fold. This would, in turn, greatly reduce the cost of space science and exploration. Space tourism would become a major industry. This spaceflight revolution would cost far less than present government space plans, and is being led by small companies.

    These opening statements may seem too good to be true, but are based on robust private sector initiatives. The background analysis is described in more detail in Spaceflight Revolution.

    Scaled Composites has recently unveiled its ‘Tier One’ programme, shown in figure 1. The vehicle that flies to space, ‘SpaceShipOne’, is in
    the foreground and its carrier aeroplane, ‘White Knight’ at the rear. The idea is for White Knight to carry SpaceShipOne to a height of 50,000 ft (15 km) and then release it. SpaceShipOne then uses its rocket motor to pull into a steep climb and to zoom up to the lower edge of space. Carrying a pilot and two passengers, it reaches a maximum height of some 100 km, which is about 10 times higher than the cruising height of a jet airliner. Gravity then pulls SpaceShipOne down towards earth and it lands back at the airfield that it took off from, some 30 minutes after being released from White Knight.

    Passengers will feel weightless for about two minutes, will see an area
    several hundred kilometres across at one time, and will see the sky turn
    dark with bright stars even in daytime. Burt Rutan, the President of
    Scaled Composites, says that he hopes to make the first flight to space
    in time for the Wright Brothers’ centennial, but that this could slip to
    early next year.2 Flight testing is now under way. He estimates the cost per flight at under $80,000.

    Rutan has not said so, but with further development towards a mature system capable of several flights per day, the cost per flight should approach that of two business jets of comparable size. The passenger
    fare would then be less than $5,000. Achieving such maturity would take
    time and money, but is clearly possible.

    Preliminary estimates indicate that the cost of development up to the stage of early flights to space should be in the region of $20-$30 million, and that the cost of certification for commercial passenger carrying would be approximately $100-$300 million.

    SpaceShipOne is sub-orbital in that it will achieve enough height to reach space, but not enough speed to remain in orbit. Satellite speed is some six times greater than the maximum speed of SpaceShipOne, and an orbital spaceplane will cost of the order of 10 times more to develop than a sub-orbital one with comparable payload.

    A second example from the private sector is the Bristol Spaceplanes’ Spacecab, which is a fully reusable orbital spaceplane (figure 2) designed to provide safe and economical transportation to and from space stations. It was the subject of an ESA-funded feasibility study in 1993/4.3 The study concluded that Spacecab did not need major new technology, that development cost would be around $2 billion, and that the cost per flight would be some $10 million on early flights. When the system had matured, with long-life rocket motors and other equipment, the cost would be reduced to less than $1 million. This study was broadly endorsed by an independent review carried out by the British National Space Centre at the request of the then Minister, Ian Taylor.

    Ascender (shown in figure 3), has a performance comparable to that of
    SpaceShipOne, but is a more conventional design. The sub-orbital Ascender is intended to pave the way for the orbital Spacecab by developing the market, demonstrating the feasibility of aeroplanes capable of several flights per day to space, and providing a focus for maturing the technology. Ascender is derived from the Spacecab Demonstrator project described in The Spacecab Demonstrator Project.

    In contrast with these fully reusable designs, NASA is proposing an Orbital Space Plane (OSP), which is a manned spacecraft launched by an expendable vehicle. The launcher is likely to be based on the latest version of Atlas or Delta, both of which derive from ballistic missiles. OSP is designed to carry crews to and from the International Space Station.
    One early design is shown in figure 4.

    The table below compares some of the leading data of Spacecab and OSP. Spacecab would cost some five times less to develop; in addition, it
    would cost about 10 times less to fly on early flights. When mature, the
    cost plummets to 100 times less. Not only would it be far less expensive,
    but it would also be far safer. (The arrows indicate progress from
    prototype to mature system.)

    How is it possible to achieve such a clearly superior product for a far
    lower development cost? The explanation for this apparent paradox
    is that spaceplanes can cost less to develop than spacecraft launched by
    expendable vehicles precisely because they are so much safer and less
    expensive to fly. Expendable launchers are inherently unsafe for
    several reasons. The high cost per flight, which is more than the cost of
    a new vehicle, precludes a progressive flight test programme like that of an aeroplane. Pre-delivery test flights are not possible, and the economics of expendability lead to low design margins and little system redundancy.
    As a result, it is simply not practicable to make a large and complex single-shot vehicle anything like as safe as a fully reusable one. Manned spaceflight therefore has a poor safety record to date: one fatal
    accident per (approximately) 100 flights, compared with one per 10,000
    during the flight-testing of new airliners and one per 1,000,000 for
    passenger-carrying flights.

    The Space Shuttle is an example of the high cost of expendability leading to very few flights. It uses large throwaway components (the External Tank) and recyclable components (the Solid Rocket Boosters) and is much more like a manned spacecraft launched by an enlarged ballistic missile than it is like an aeroplane.

    After a mere five low-speed gliding flights, the first powered flight of the Shuttle went all the way to orbit. Such a leap into the unknown would be unthinkable with a new aeroplane. Concorde, for example, made 69 flights before reaching even supersonic speed, and made more than 2,000 test flights before being allowed to carry passengers. The
    Shuttle made some 100 flights in its first twenty years of service, an
    average of just five per year.

    With a spaceplane, there are no expendable components, and the marginal cost per flight is little more than that of crew, fuel and
    maintenance. An incremental flight test programme, like that of an
    aeroplane, can therefore be afforded.

    With a spaceplane, an operational prototype can be built in an experimental workshop, which costs about 10 times less than developing a
    fully certificated design. White Knight and SpaceShipOne were so
    built, which helps to explain their very low development cost. Such cost
    saving is not possible with projects that use expendable launchers, like
    OSP, because of the inherently high risk.

    As explained earlier, it may take $300 million to certify SpaceShipOne
    for passenger carrying. But this is still less than the cost of a single Space
    Shuttle flight and is approximately equal to NASA’s budget for one
    week. This point is worth repeating: A certificated passenger-carrying
    spaceplane, albeit sub-orbital, can be developed for less than the cost of a
    single Shuttle flight.

    The X-34 (figure 5), is perhaps more relevant to a fully orbital vehicle than SpaceShipOne, and was also built in an experimental workshop. This project was funded largely by NASA as a test-bed for the technologies required for a reusable launch vehicle. It was cancelled, apparently for largely bureaucratic reasons, in 2001 when almost complete, but before it could fly. Its development cost would have been some $250 million, and it would have been the fastest and highest fully reusable flying machine to date.

    The X-34 was designed to reach about one third satellite speed on a
    sub-orbital flight. A simple thought experiment shows how a fully reusable orbital vehicle based on X-34 technology could be developed at low cost. Imagine an X-34 scaled up to have about 10 times the original weight, and designed for use as a high-speed carrier aeroplane. Imagine the X-34 itself with a more advanced engine and larger propellant tanks, and air launched from the new carrier aeroplane. The new upper stage would be able to reach orbit, and the resulting vehicle would be similar to some of the more promising 1960s projects mentioned later.

    Development cost tends to increase somewhat less than directly proportionally to vehicle weight, and the cost of an operational prototype
    of this orbital spaceplane would be in the region of $2 billion (eight times
    that of the X-34 itself), which is comparable to that estimated for
    Spacecab (and about five times less than that of the proposed OSP).

    Prototypes of either this ‘Orbital X-34’ or Spacecab could be built in
    about five years, given priority. They would be used for launching small
    satellites, servicing large satellites, and supplying space stations. Their most important use in the near term would be providing safe and economical transport to and from the beleaguered International Space Station.

    Given the obvious benefits of full reusability and the potential for low
    development cost, why is NASA insisting on an expendable launcher
    for OSP? A related question is why, if spaceplanes are so straightforward to develop, were they not developed years ago?

    The answers to both these questions can be found in the history of US launch vehicle development. The modern US space programme
    started after World War II with captured German V-2 ballistic missiles. These were developed into progressively bigger and better ballistic missiles, further developments of which are still used to launch satellites. Due to the intense pressures of the Cold War, modified ballistic missiles sent the first men to space and enlarged developments were used
    for the race to the moon.

    By the time of the first lunar landing in 1969, the technology was well in place for a fully reusable launcher. The X-15 research aeroplane had demonstrated much of the required engineering by flying to space height on sub-orbital trajectories. (SpaceShipOne and Ascender capability is close to that of the X-15.) During the 1960s, most large aircraft companies had design teams studying spaceplanes, leading to a consensus that they were the obvious next major development and
    that they were just about feasible using the technology of that period.

    The original design of the Space Shuttle, intended to replace the mighty Saturn and other expendable launchers, was indeed for it to be fully
    reusable. However, it was far larger than most of the 1960s projects and
    therefore had a very high development cost. President Nixon then imposed a budget cut and the large reusable design could no longer be afforded. NASA then sacrificed full reusability to maintain the same
    payload capacity. There was a lobby in favour of a smaller but fully reusable design, but this was swamped by the politics of megaprojects.

    The X-15 last flew in 1968 and remains the only fully reusable vehicle
    to have flown to space. This failure to follow up the X-15 with a fully
    reusable orbital spaceplane is a prime example of large monopolies stifling
    promising but radical ideas.

    The International Space Station continues this saga of high cost almost
    for its own sake. Its through-life cost will be some $100 billion, while it can
    readily be shown that better science could be achieved for about 10% of
    this money by building several small space stations and a spaceplane to
    transport crew, spare parts, and consumables.

    What, then, will it take to persuade governments to change tack and back the development of low-cost spaceplanes? It will probably take the
    successful flight to space of a suborbital spaceplane to persuade a critical mass of people that the spaceflight revolution can and should begin soon.

    Progress thereafter is likely to be rapid. After test flights demonstrate
    adequate safety, production developments of sub-orbital spaceplanes would be used for carrying passengers on brief space experience flights, which is probably the biggest market for such vehicles. This would create a virtuous spiral of lower cost, higher traffic levels, maturing technology, and even lower costs. This growing maturity would transfer naturally to fully orbital spaceplanes. Within perhaps 10 years of the prototype first flight, a mature orbital spaceplane could achieve a cost per seat to orbit around $20,000, which is about 1,000 times less than the present cost of sending people to space. Many middle-income people would be prepared to pay this for the trip of a lifetime.

    Low-cost spaceplanes will then lead to a new golden age of space science. Within a few decades, there will be affordable bases on the Moon and Mars, and unmanned visits to most of the rest of the Solar System. Manned and unmanned space-based observatories will become as affordable as bases in Antarctica, and will be able to use vastly larger, and therefore more sensitive, instruments.

    All this breakthrough needs is a good kick start. This ‘trigger project’
    could be SpaceShipOne, or a military vehicle such as the RASCAL funded
    by the US Defense Advanced Projects Research Agency, or another private sector project. In fact, more than 20 organisations have registered for the X-Prize, an award of $10 million for the first to fly a fully reusable vehicle to a height of 100 km (62 miles).

    The major challenge facing these would-be spaceplane entrepreneurs is
    credibility. The idea that a small company can lead the way in slashing
    the cost of access to space seems too good to be true. By revealing
    SpaceShipOne to the world, Burt Rutan has rendered us all a great
    service by showing that it is indeed very likely to be true, and will lead to
    a breathtaking 100 years of spaceflight.

    Quote Originally Posted by Bio sidebar
    David Ashford is Managing Director of Bristol Spaceplanes Limited, a spaceplane and space tourism consultancy with plans to develop the
    Ascender sub-orbital spaceplane. He graduated from Imperial College in
    aeronautical engineering and spent one year at Princeton doing post-graduate research on rocket motor combustion instability. His first job, starting in 1961, was with the Hawker Siddeley Aviation spaceplane design team. He has worked as an aerodynamicist, project engineer or project manager on various aerospace projects, including DC-8, DC-10, Concorde, the Skylark sounding rocket, and several naval missile and
    electronic warfare systems. He coauthored with Prof. Patrick Collins the
    first serious book on space tourism ‘Your Spaceflight Manual - How You Could be a Tourist in Space Within Twenty Years’, Headline 1990, and wrote a follow-up book ‘Spaceflight Revolution’, published by Imperial
    College Press in 2002.

    References
    1. ‘Spaceflight Revolution’ by David Ashford,
    Imperial College Press, 2002.
    2. ‘Burt Rutan’s Quest for Space’, Aviation Week
    & Space Technology, April 21, 2003.
    3. ‘A Preliminary Feasibility Study of the Spacecab
    Low-Cost Spaceplane and of the Spacecab
    Demonstrator’, Bristol Spaceplanes Limited
    Report TR 6, February 1994. Carried out
    under European Space Agency Contract No.
    10411/93/F/TB. Volume 1 reproduced as ‘The
    Potential of Spaceplanes’ in the Journal of
    Practical Applications in Space, Spring 1995.
    4. Letter from Ian Taylor MBE MP,
    Parliamentary Under-Secretary of State for
    Trade and Technology, to the Rt Hon Sir
    John Cope MP, March 1995.
    5. ‘The Spacecab Demonstrator Project’, by D M
    Ashford, Aeronautical Journal of the R Ae Soc,
    June 1995.

    Quote Originally Posted by Table
    Comparison between Orbital Space Plane and Spacecab
    Orbital Space Plane Spacecab
    Development Cost, $bn 10+ ≈2
    Cost per Flight, $m 100+ 10fi1
    Flights per Fatal Accident ≈100 10,000fi1,000,000

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Philip Storm of space-transport.com

    Walter,
    Do you know something about our rocket? There is a payload area for
    passengers, and 7 engines below the payload section. Even though the rocket
    is stable (fins), there is a cold gas thruster system in the nosecone so we
    can control more precisely the path of the rocket instead of allowing the
    wind. When the rocket is slow, the fins are less effective and the cold gas
    system helps out.

    We can accomodate 3 passengers (x-prize), but the tourism rocket would
    probably be for 2 passengers (more comfort). The rocket is launched from a
    mobile launch trailer out towards the Pacific. A boat will be waiting in the
    landing zone, and a helicopter will be on hand to pick up the
    rocket/passengers. LZ is around 20 miles off the coast.

    Each engine costs us about $6,000 to build. Fuel costs are $2,500. Most of
    the cost of the rocket is the engines. The electronics (angular rate
    sensors, microcontrollers, data radio, gps, accelerometers, etc) cost around
    $5,000. Other hardware costs an additional $15,000. So a fully loaded, new
    rocket costs around $65,000, but re-use costs $25,000. (fuel and re-furb)

    Before selling this service, we would launch approximately 200 unmanned
    flights and demonstrate at least 100 or more successful flights in a row. We
    would like to demonstrate more reliablity than the US or Russian space
    programs combined. They like to develop their rockets with people on board,
    which I believe is a mistake.. I believe a rocket can be made as safe as a
    jetliner. This program would cost around $10 million. Infrastructure costs
    would increase the total cost before selling our tourism service to the
    market. We would need to raise $50 million for tourism operations, but could
    be ready within 5 years.

    With a typical week long event before launch for a paying passenger
    (training courses, launch, seminars, etc) we would initially charge $100,000
    per passenger. Our costs (launch, labor, etc) would come to around $50,000
    per launch. This is $150,000 in profit per launch. If you look at the market
    that can afford this ride. (people making more than $250,000 a year, or over
    1 million people in the US) and assume that 1 out of every 1000 people who
    want to take a ride to space, thats a profit of $150 million from US
    customers alone.

    People are paying $20 million to ride the soyuz, but it takes 6 months out
    of your life. (training in Russia) I believe that with only a week
    commitment for our launch, and a $100k pricetag, it will be more attractive
    to experience Space.

    Most of this project has been funded out of the pocket of Eric and I. We
    plan on launching our X-prize rocket with 2 of the 7 engines loaded next
    month. (the total impulse and burn time fall within FAA amateur rules) To
    develop the 12" engines, electronics, our small sounding rocket and a launch
    of our man-capable X-prize rocket to 20,000 feet (and supersonic) will have
    cost around $150,000. We need to raise an additional $750,000 to win the
    X-prize, which we are currently working on.

    We hope to get pictures back from space with our small 3-stage sounding
    rocket early June, which may help for financing purposes. This 70 pound
    smaller rocket is basically a subscale version of the X-prize rocket. It
    uses mostly the same electronics. This allows us to debug and learn a lot
    about what we need for the X-prize rocket. What fin strength and stability
    we need, drag modelling, etc. We launch one of these rockets about every 2
    weeks. This rocket is also an overtest on the X-prize electronics, because
    the 3-stage rocket has much higher G forces.

    The past two tests of the sounding rocket were to work out an electronics
    problem with the microcontroller. The microcontroller resets after a large
    pyroshock event. (stage sep) So we made the microcontroller reset proof by
    storing where it is in the program to non-volatile memory. So when it
    restarts, it knows where it was in the program. We will apply this to the
    X-prize electronics as well.

    Hope this helps,

    Phil
    In a second communication referring to the above post
    Quote Originally Posted by Phil
    Walter,
    I think I made a mistake in the profit calculation. (75 million for that
    example, not 150 million).
    He was nice enough to send me the 40 page pdf file business plan. I will gladly send it to anyone wanting to read it. It is unfortunately too large to post here, but great information to say the least.

  28. #28
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    Apr 2004
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    660
    Scaled Composites said they couldn't divulge information per Paul Allen's request, but did say 10m would not cover their expenditures.

  29. #29
    Join Date
    Apr 2004
    Posts
    660
    It has been long enough since I sent the initial communications to the Companies involved that I feel any who are going to respond have. With that being said, after seeing a little more information from the "Horses Mouth" what are everyone's thoughts? Just so you know I also included a link to this thread when I was asking for permission to post their responses, so your thoughts could be read by the people working to make this happen.

  30. #30
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Posts
    12,545
    Quote Originally Posted by AZgazer
    It has been long enough since I sent the initial communications to the Companies involved that I feel any who are going to respond have. With that being said, after seeing a little more information from the "Horses Mouth" what are everyone's thoughts? Just so you know I also included a link to this thread when I was asking for permission to post their responses, so your thoughts could be read by the people working to make this happen.
    I read all the stuff, but now my head hurts more. Can someone sum it up better to help me understand? 8-[ I mean this in a good way, too.

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