[Fukushima, power stations, nuclear scare]

[korjik]

I saw that, but I don't see how your reply relates to what I said.

Besides, your re-wording sounds like 6000 of the bananas aren't natural.

That would mean that about 3400 bananas per year is the natural background. The remaining 600 bananas per year are man-made background. Thinks like fallout would not be considered natural background even if the last fallout in the atmo was about 50 years ago.

[Extravoice]

I don't know about 3400 bananas, but 30,000 pounds of bananas can be quite dangerous.

[NEOWatcher]

That would mean that about 3400 bananas per year is the natural background. The remaining 600 bananas per year are man-made background. Thinks like fallout would not be considered natural background even if the last fallout in the atmo was about 50 years ago.

So; what's the point you're trying to make as it relates to what I said?
I was just trying to say that the background as a base number is more understandable to me than bananas. If I didn't already know the numbers you keep showing me, I wouldn't have had that opinion.

[korjik]

So; what's the point you're trying to make as it relates to what I said?
I was just trying to say that the background as a base number is more understandable to me than bananas. If I didn't already know the numbers you keep showing me, I wouldn't have had that opinion.

You said "I'd like to see a scale compared to the normal background radiation."

Well, that would be 4000 banana or 400 microsievert, or 1 background absorbed dose (BAD)

then a mammogram is 1 bad, a chest CT is 17.5 bad, US worker max yearly dose is 120 bad, a fatal dose is 20000 bad, and ten minutes in Chernobyl was 120000 bad.

And just to go with the topic of the thread: In Fukushima town hall you would have gotten .25 bad in two weeks.

[Glom]

Apparently that hotspot in Tokyo was due to someone dumping radium and not due to Fukushima. This is what happens when you have an entire nation running around with Geiger counters. You discover stuff that would never have been found otherwise.

[NEOWatcher]

Well, that would be 4000 banana or 400 microsievert, or 1 background absorbed dose (BAD)

Obviously, you don't understand what I'm saying (whether it my fault or yours) but that's using banana as a base number. I'm talking about some linear scale with background at 1 or non-linear scale with background at 0.
Basically; divide the entire chart by 4000.
So; I'm going to bow out of this back and forth, it's a trivial point.

And just to go with the topic of the thread: In Fukushima town hall you would have gotten .25 bad in two weeks.

The article says 1000.

[Strange]

Obviously, you don't understand what I'm saying (whether it my fault or yours) but that's using banana as a base number. I'm talking about some linear scale with background at 1 or non-linear scale with background at 0.
Basically; divide the entire chart by 4000.

Which is exactly what korjik has done with his "BAD" units.

The article says 1000.

But, as you say, that needs to be divided by 4000...

[NEOWatcher]

Which is exactly what korjik has done with his "BAD" units.

Ok; I know I said I'm dropping it, but you forced me to re-read what was said to see where I was misinterpreting.
I got confused with the "B" in "bad" being used for both "Banana" and "background", and focused on the words instead of the numbers.
Sorry for going off track.

But, as you say, that needs to be divided by 4000...

And that was the key that jogged my understanding. Thank you.

[Strange]

And that was the key that jogged my understanding. Thank you.

Always happy to bring a little peace, love and understanding to the world.

[geonuc]

There have been a couple of interesting developments recently at Fukushima. Xenon isotopes were detected at reactor 2. Xenon is a daughter product of uranium fission and thus is indicative of a sustained reaction. Apparently the amount was small and the utility injected boron to stop any further significant fissioning from occurring, but it's still a cause of concern. The damaged reactors at Fukushima have made good progress in achieving cold shutdown over the last few months.

The second interesting thing I read was a 'stunt' (as some call it) pulled by a government official. He drank some of the wastewater from one of the units on a dare, apparently to prove that it was not that dangerous.

Both are mentioned in this article:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2011-1...-plant-2-.html

[Gillianren]

I thought they'd been using seawater.

[NEOWatcher]

He must have got the idea from last week's Dilbert cartoon.

[danscope]

Well isn't he clever?

[Extravoice]

The second interesting thing I read was a 'stunt' (as some call it)...

[my emphesis]

Yes, yes I would.

[cjameshuff]

There have been a couple of interesting developments recently at Fukushima. Xenon isotopes were detected at reactor 2. Xenon is a daughter product of uranium fission and thus is indicative of a sustained reaction. Apparently the amount was small and the utility injected boron to stop any further significant fissioning from occurring, but it's still a cause of concern. The damaged reactors at Fukushima have made good progress in achieving cold shutdown over the last few months.

The hottest reactor was last reported to be at 76.3 C, if "cold shutdown" can be considered meaningful for reactors this badly damaged, I think it can be considered to have been achieved.

The xenon's an odd find, particularly since there's nothing about iodine or other isotopes being found and temperatures have been going down.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS...2_0211111.html

I thought they'd been using seawater.

They've been using recycled water pumped from the basements and processed to remove the contaminants for several months now.

[Gillianren]

They've been using recycled water pumped from the basements and processed to remove the contaminants for several months now.

Ah. Thank you for the correction; drinking seawater isn't good even if it isn't radioactive.

[geonuc]

The xenon's an odd find, particularly since there's nothing about iodine or other isotopes being found and temperatures have been going down.

http://www.world-nuclear-news.org/RS...2_0211111.html

I regularly check WNN, but they hadn't weighed in yet when I posted this. An interesting language note on that WNN page explains how there might be some confusion about what 'undeniable' means in Japanese. Apparently, if they can't rule out fission, in Japanese that means it is undeniable that fission occurred.

Given the other parameters and failure to detect other signs of fission, I think the trace xenon is an anomaly. Perhaps a measurement anomaly.

[geonuc]

Ah. Thank you for the correction; drinking seawater isn't good even if it isn't radioactive.

Yes, what cjameshuff said. At first - and for quite a long while - they'd been pumping seawater through the reactors in a 'once-through' process to control temperature and pressure. That caused a tremendous amount of radioactivity to be discharged to the sea and to build up in the basements of the buildings. Processing of that water began some months ago using technology from a French company (AREVA). It is that water the government official apparently drank in an effort to demonstrate the quality of the process. Still, it's not a good idea to drink that water. You can actually drink some reactor coolant without harm (from undamaged reactors, that is), except for the fact that there are quite a few chemicals added for corrosion control that would make your digestive system rather unhappy. It's generally isn't a good idea.

[geonuc]

The hottest reactor was last reported to be at 76.3 C, if "cold shutdown" can be considered meaningful for reactors this badly damaged, I think it can be considered to have been achieved.

I saw this from the latest IAEA status report of Fukushima:

Plant operators are working to bring the reactors into a "cold shutdown condition" defined by TEPCO and the Nuclear Emergency Response Headquarters as:

Lowering the coolant water temperature to below 100 degrees centigrade while reducing the pressure inside the reactor vessels to the same as the outside air pressure, or 1 atmosphere (atm); and
Bringing release of radioactive materials from the primary containment vessel under control and reducing public radiation exposure by additional release (not to exceed 1 mSv/year at the site boundary as a target).

http://www.iaea.org/newscenter/news/...areport01.html

According to the report, the reactor (and drywell) pressures have not all fallen to atmospheric quite yet.

[Extravoice]

IEEE Spectrum has an article titled "24 Hours at Fukushima." I found it to be a very interesting read.

Here is a link:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...at-fukushima/0

[geonuc]

That is a good article. Thanks.

[geonuc]

Given the other parameters and failure to detect other signs of fission, I think the trace xenon is an anomaly. Perhaps a measurement anomaly.

Now thought to be from spontaneous fission, which occurs in small numbers all the time in uranium loads. Not sure why TEPCO hadn't realized that earlier, but it is a unique situation they're dealing with.

[PraedSt]

IEEE Spectrum has an article titled "24 Hours at Fukushima." I found it to be a very interesting read.

Here is a link:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...at-fukushima/0

I've got to second Geonuc. Great article. Thanks.

[aar14]

So what's the deal with Fukushima now? How is Tokyo?

What about radioactive particles traveling around the world?

[geonuc]

So what's the deal with Fukushima now? How is Tokyo?

What about radioactive particles traveling around the world?

It suffered at least three meltdowns and is being contained and cleaned up at great cost.
Tokyo is fine.
Fukushima added an insignificant amount of radioactivity to the global environment.

[Glom]

Do we know anything about the local hotspots that were talked about a few months ago?

[Extravoice]

I just got my print copy of the IEEE article I referenced above, and it contains several photos and graphics that I don't recall from the online version. One sketch shows the location of the emergency generators, which are frequently cited as being (poorly) placed the basement. While they are clearly at the bottom of the Turbine building, they seem to have been placed well above the expected highest tsunami level of 5.7 meters. Unfortunately they were not above the actual tsunami level of 14 meters.

[Gigabyte]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...at-fukushima/2

A blow-by-blow account of the worst nuclear accident

[Strange]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...at-fukushima/2

A blow-by-blow account of the worst nuclear accident

I'm sure it was an oversight, but you left "... since Chernobyl" off the subhead.

[geonuc]

http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/nucl...at-fukushima/2

A blow-by-blow account of the worst nuclear accident

That's the same IEEE article Extravoice referenced just a few posts above.