Time zones in polar regions

[Brady Yoon]

What are time zones like for people who live very close to the poles, like Barrow, Alaska and the scientific stations in Antarctica? Plus, what would be the time zones if you were stationed exactly at the poles?

[Ricimer]

I think they've got the same 15 degree longitudinal width. So you don't have to travel as far to leave it.

But you really can't fix time there, so people just get used to seeing the sun set at 11pm and rise at 1am. THe zones are there to keep them synched to what the less extreme regions of the nation are up to.

Heck, it can still get pretty bad in the mid latitudes.

Here in nebraska there are times when the sun crosses the meridian (our local noon) at ~1:30 pm, a whole hour and a half late according to the time zones.

[skrap1r0n]

I think they've got the same 15 degree longitudinal width. So you don't have to travel as far to leave it.

But you really can't fix time there, so people just get used to seeing the sun set at 11pm and rise at 1am. THe zones are there to keep them synched to what the less extreme regions of the nation are up to.

Heck, it can still get pretty bad in the mid latitudes.

Here in nebraska there are times when the sun crosses the meridian (our local noon) at ~1:30 pm, a whole hour and a half late according to the time zones.

I lived in norway as a kid, we were GMT+1. The funny thing is, it only got dark for an hour or two in the summer and light for an hour or two in the winter. we had one day that never ended and one night that never ended each year. You just get used to it.

[cyswxman]

I thought on occasion...if you got very close to a pole (within a 1/4 mile or so, and you ran westward, crossing all the time zones, would you go back in time?

I know you wouldn't, but it's a fun thought experiment.

[Kullat Nunu]

I lived in norway as a kid, we were GMT+1. The funny thing is, it only got dark for an hour or two in the summer and light for an hour or two in the winter. we had one day that never ended and one night that never ended each year. You just get used to it.

Some people don't get used to it even if they spend their whole lifes in polar regions...

BTW, it's rather funny to go northeast Norway (GMT+1) from Finland (GMT+2). When you cross the border east, time changes one hour *back*.

[swansont]

I thought on occasion...if you got very close to a pole (within a 1/4 mile or so, and you ran westward, crossing all the time zones, would you go back in time?

I know you wouldn't, but it's a fun thought experiment.

That's the thought experiment that mandated the international date line.

People at the poles use whatever time zone is convenient for them, e.g. the time zone of the people with whom they are in contact.

[Glom]

Aren't they just on GMT?

[tlbs101]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Um, White.

It was a Polar Bear.

Also, there are actually a near infinite number of places he could have started from, if he was 1 Mile North of where he could walk an even fraction of a Mile, and still return to his Way Point.

[Kullat Nunu]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Green?

[Paul Beardsley]

This is a fascinating thread. Everyone knows about the midnight sun, but to have a location where it stays day once a year and stays night once a year is weirder - even though it makes sense.

And I love the idea of going back in time by running around the pole.

Here's a question - what would life be like at the pole (and elsewhere) if the Earth's tilt was exactly 90 degrees to the ecliptic (i.e. no tilt at all)?

There'd be no Arctic circle - merely an Arctic point. If we had no atmosphere it would always be half-day at the North Pole - i.e. the sun half above the horrizon at all times, but moving around the horizon 360 degrees every 24 hours. As we do have an atmosphere, refraction (?) would raise the sun by about 1 degree (i.e. twice its diameter) so it would be permanently above the horizon. The same would be true at the South Pole, paradoxically. So it would always be daytime at the poles. Whereas in the rest of the polar regions, there'd be roughly the same amount of sunlight during the day as at the poles themselves, but none at all during the nights which would be nearly 12 hours long.

[kucharek]

Last year when I flew from London to Japan, I had my first real experience with this stuff. It was in late spring. Very late local time, above Siberia, I could still see the shining sun low on the horizon and out of custom, I thought it was south. Then I brought up my mental map: We are going east, but the sun doesn't shine from the right, but from the left. It took me some thinking until I realized that the north pole was already tilted pretty much towards the sun and that what I was seeing was the sun shining somewhat across the north pole to me at midnight. To me this was a classic example of a thing I always knew in theory, but whose practical effects were still somewhat amazing. In some way, it was the first time that I somewhat really physically felt that the Earth is a sphere and its place in space.

Harald

[Kullat Nunu]

There'd be no Arctic circle - merely an Arctic point. If we had no atmosphere it would always be half-day at the North Pole - i.e. the sun half above the horrizon at all times, but moving around the horizon 360 degrees every 24 hours. As we do have an atmosphere, refraction (?) would raise the sun by about 1 degree (i.e. twice its diameter) so it would be permanently above the horizon. The same would be true at the South Pole, paradoxically. So it would always be daytime at the poles.

More like perpetual early dusk. Sun would be all time grazing the horizon, thus the level of lighting would be very low.

Whereas in the rest of the polar regions, there'd be roughly the same amount of sunlight during the day as at the poles themselves, but none at all during the nights which would be nearly 12 hours long.

Nights would be shorter nearer the poles.

If we sum the time of sunlight, polar regions have more day hours than the equator (on both current and not tilted Earth). Of course equator receives much more energy and so it is much warmer.

[SeanF]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Green?

Purple.

[daver]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Also, there are actually a near infinite number of places he could have started from, if he was 1 Mile North of where he could walk an even fraction of a Mile, and still return to his Way Point.

Correct. There is one spot in the northern hemisphere where he could have pulled this stunt, and an infinite number of places in the southern hemisphere. Therefore, the odds that he was in the northern hemisphere are infinitesimal, and he must have spotted the bear in Antarctica. However, there are no ursine-style bears in Antarctica, so it must have been some other bear. It could have been a bare scientist sprinting for the shelter while trying to qualify for the 300 degree club. Possibly there's a make of airplane or snowmobile or mukluk that is known a bear.

[Avatar28]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Also, there are actually a near infinite number of places he could have started from, if he was 1 Mile North of where he could walk an even fraction of a Mile, and still return to his Way Point.

Correct. There is one spot in the northern hemisphere where he could have pulled this stunt, and an infinite number of places in the southern hemisphere. Therefore, the odds that he was in the northern hemisphere are infinitesimal, and he must have spotted the bear in Antarctica. However, there are no ursine-style bears in Antarctica, so it must have been some other bear. It could have been a bare scientist sprinting for the shelter while trying to qualify for the 300 degree club. Possibly there's a make of airplane or snowmobile or mukluk that is known a bear.

Okay, I'm afraid you're going to have to explain. How could there be a near infinite number of places in the southern hemisphere he could be? Even if you assume that he started out a tiny smidge of a mile away from the south pole and just walked a mile in a big circle around the south pole, he STILL couldn't be in the souther hemisphere. There are, as you pointed out, no bears in antartica (we'll ignore the possibility of nicknames for machines here). Ergo if he saw a bear, he MUST be near the north pole.

[daver]

Okay, I'm afraid you're going to have to explain. How could there be a near infinite number of places in the southern hemisphere he could be? Even if you assume that he started out a tiny smidge of a mile away from the south pole and just walked a mile in a big circle around the south pole, he STILL couldn't be in the souther hemisphere. There are, as you pointed out, no bears in antartica (we'll ignore the possibility of nicknames for machines here). Ergo if he saw a bear, he MUST be near the north pole.

Not a near-infinite number--an infinite number. I'll make the simplyfing assumption that the earth is a sphere; you can modify the algorithm slightly to compensate for any irregularities. Start at the south pole--walk about 1/6 mile north (pick a north, any north); stop when your line of lattitude is 1 mile in circumference (that'll be close to 1/2pi miles from the south pole). Go 1 mile north of any point on that circle. From that point, go one mile south. Go one mile east (or west, I'm flexible). That takes you back to where you were when you started walking east (or west). Go one mile north again. Wallah! Back to where you started. There are an infinite number of points where you can start from to take this route--any point on the line of lattitude 1 mile north of the line of lattitude with the 1 mile circumference.

Now, go to the south pole again, but only go 1/4pi miles north, to the line of lattitude with circumference 1/2 mile. Go 1 mile north of that. Turn around, march south. Now when you march east (or west) from that point you make two circuits. March north again.

Start at the south pole again, but only go 1/6pi miles north, to the line of lattitude with circumference 1/3 mile. Lather, rinse, repeat.

[edit to add:]
Given that the number of points in the southern hemisphere is infinite (and not countably infinite--it's the same order as the number of real numbers), and given that there is a small but certainly non-zero chance of him spotting some sort of a bear near the south pole, the odds heavily favor (by infinity:1) him starting in the southern hemisphere.

The only problem now is to determine which sort of bear is most likely to be near the south pole. I'd figure a Russian bear would be most likely, closely followed by a California bear. Possibly the Pabst Blue Ribbon bear. Most of the answers seem to be coming up brown, but I'm sure there are other possibilities. Coca Cola bears and Igloo bears (the ice chest guys) are white,; most likely if there is a bear on a piece of snow equipment it would be a polar bear, so white may be the correct answer after all. On the other hand, it's possible that some Tu-95's have been converted to supply planes, so maybe silver would be a reasonable guess.

[Avatar28]

I think that's rather pushing the rules of the riddle. After all, you're doing some extra walking north and south. :-) And there's still the issue of no bears at the south pole.

[daver]

I think that's rather pushing the rules of the riddle. After all, you're doing some extra walking north and south. :-) And there's still the issue of no bears at the south pole.

The riddle starts with the man getting up, walking 1s,1e,1n and ending back where he starts. I just described how to locate his potential starting spots.

The way I first heard the puzzle was the man leaves his house, walks 1s,1e,1n and reenters his house. Now, in that case, clearly his house had to be near the S pole, as there's no way anyone would build a house on the N pole (some jolly old elf apparently bought up all the property).

[QuagmaPhage]

This thread reminds me of a riddle.

A man walks 1 mile South, then 1 Mile East, then 1 Mile North and ends up in the same spot he started from. Along the way he spotted a bear. What color was the bear?

.

Green?

Purple.

Yellow, black, invisible or even blue-brown hybrids.

[swansont]

Yellow, black, invisible or even blue-brown hybrids.

"Because polar bears give off no detectable heat, they do not show up in infrared photographs. (Infrared film measures heat.)" Ugh. Bad physics.

If polar bears don't show up on IR film, it's because their surface temp isn't appreciably different from the surroundings. Not surprising, given the efficient insulation that the article mentions.

IR is not heat.

[tracer]

And I love the idea of going back in time by running around the pole.

And if you stand right on the pole, you exist at all points in time simultaneously. Just like the wormhole aliens on Star Trek: Deep Space Nine.