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Thread: The Incredible Shrinking Universe II (too) :)

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    The Incredible Shrinking Universe II (too) :)

    Greetings, All (-- and best wishes for 2011 to all)

    Diving right in, it seems to me that many commonly accepted 'implications' of certain cosmological observations have been underpinned by a very specific notion of 'space', and that this foundational principle (which is really nothing more than a popular presupposition) has resulted in a propensity to misinterpret the evidence, which has in turn given rise to certain conclusions, primarily where the idea of an expanding universe is concerned. It is therefore my intention to propose a vastly different theory of 'space', and to show (if only indirectly) that the aforementioned “conclusions” are more the product of the theoretical principles on which they stand than anything else.

    The Monistic Paradigm

    In order to fully grasp my proposal, it’s first necessary to understand the paradigmatic rules to which it strictly adheres -- the key principle being that of oneness. In my view, there exists only one object: the universe itself. In keeping true to this postulate, there can be no whole separation (or “space”) between the many aspects of this singularity. Don't get me wrong; space exists, but only in ‘outer’ relation to the singular material that comprises the object and all of its aspects. To analogize this idea, think of a string that’s been folded in half. While there would indeed be an area between the halves, the “separation” would not be “whole”, because the connection at the delineating point would be intact. Bear in mind, the folded string is the object; the halves are its aspects; and space is the area that exists in outer relation to the totality. From this perspective, it’s necessary to think of space, not as something that exists within the universe, but as the pure nothingness in outer relation to it. Simply stated: space doesn’t reside in the universe; the universe resides in it.

    The Constancy of Space

    As I see things, the most important implication of this idea, at least in terms of interpreting cosmological data, is that “space” (or the amount of nothingness that defines the one) would be constant. Accordingly, the redshift observations often cited to support the theory that the universe is expanding would have to be reinterpreted, with the apparent increases in the areas between various groupings of cosmological material being viewed in deference to the postulate that those areas are nonetheless constant.

    A Contracting Universe

    In line with the above, space isn’t expanding; the universe is contracting (or, perhaps more properly, rewinding itself) in relation to space. Another analogy: think of two stationary balls of twine that are both directly connected to a third (albeit unseen) ball. If one were to wind the hidden ball, the visible balls would shrink in accordance to the amount of material being pulled away from each of them. So, as the hidden ball grows larger, the area between the others would seem to be increasing, when what’s really happening is that the respective sizes of the visible balls are decreasing in a constant space. The speed at which material is being pulled away from the two visible balls is directly proportional with the rates at which they're decreasing in size, and those commensurate decreases constitute the impetus for the illusion of expanding space between them. I believe this is essentially what's happening everywhere in the cosmos, and that it’s only a matter of time before the ‘hidden ball’ (the ultimate re-collector) becomes “visible” (if only by virtue of its effects) from nearly any point of view in the universe.

    The Principle of Commensurate Distribution

    Commensurate distribution is a vital aspect of my theory. Because all 'things' within a given group are contracting commensurately, the size differential from one second to the next is virtually undetectable from within that group. In reality though, what were 12 inches yesterday (relative E.G. to the group in which humanity resides) aren't the same twelve inches today, because all things in the group (including the area that qualifies as a 'foot') have contracted at paces suited to their surroundings. This explains how and why we (humans) are completely oblivious to the shrinking going on all around us. It is only by 'looking outside' that the various rates of contraction can be measured (via redshift observations).

    To sum it up: we all know cosmic redshifting shows that groups of material are apparently speeding away from each other. Expansionists presume that "space" isn't constant and that it must be expanding between the groups; I suggest that the groups are shrinking in relation to constant space. The correct answer, as to which idea the redshift "evidence" supports …is both -- meaning the issue of 'truth' stands on the veracity of opposing interpretations.

    -----------------------------------------------------------------------

    Meurid is a new member of BAUT, He wrote the entire OP above based upon his own cosmological model. I liked Meurid's proposal and consider it to be a great proposal because of its kinship to my own model

    -- so when Meurid decided not to continue defending his proposal any longer I asked his permission to defend his "great" fundamental ideas and I also liked the "ring" to his words in the OP as well as his title "the incredible shrinking universe" since my own words of similar meaning "the diminution of matter," I think, is much more bland and less dramatic than Meurid's words

    So we can pick up where he left off if you wish. The OP can stand as it was originally stated by Meurid above and if you asked questions before in his thread I will answer according to my own related model using his OP as an analogy of reality, as he did.

    I have repeated Meurid's OP above verbatim (with his permission) so that no one will have to look back to his original OP that can be found on the board just about a week before this OP opened. It has the same title without the "too" addendum that I attached with a smile

    best regards, Forrest
    Last edited by forrest noble; 2011-Feb-04 at 06:49 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Greetings, All (-- and the best wishes for 2011 to all, just around the corner)

    Diving right in, it seems to me that many commonly accepted 'implications' of certain cosmological observations have been underpinned by a very specific notion of 'space', and that this foundational principle (which is really nothing more than a popular presupposition) has resulted in a propensity to misinterpret the evidence, which has in turn given rise to certain conclusions, primarily where the idea of an expanding universe is concerned. It is therefore my intention to propose a vastly different theory of 'space', and to show (if only indirectly) that the aforementioned “conclusions” are more the product of the theoretical principles on which they stand than anything else.

    The Monistic Paradigm

    In order to fully grasp my proposal, it’s first necessary to understand the paradigmatic rules to which it strictly adheres -- the key principle being that of oneness. In my view, there exists only one object: the universe itself. In keeping true to this postulate, there can be no whole separation (or “space”) between the many aspects of this singularity. Don't get me wrong; space exists, but only in ‘outer’ relation to the singular material that comprises the object and all of its aspects. To analogize this idea, think of a string that’s been folded in half. While there would indeed be an area between the halves, the “separation” would not be “whole”, because the connection at the delineating point would be intact. Bear in mind, the folded string is the object; the halves are its aspects; and space is the area that exists in outer relation to the totality. From this perspective, it’s necessary to think of space, not as something that exists within the universe, but as the pure nothingness in outer relation to it. Simply stated: space doesn’t reside in the universe; the universe resides in it.

    The Constancy of Space

    As I see things, the most important implication of this idea, at least in terms of interpreting cosmological data, is that “space” (or the amount of nothingness that defines the one) would be constant. Accordingly, the redshift observations often cited to support the theory that the universe is expanding would have to be reinterpreted, with the apparent increases in the areas between various groupings of cosmological material being viewed in deference to the postulate that those areas are nonetheless constant.

    A Contracting Universe

    In line with the above, space isn’t expanding; the universe is contracting (or, perhaps more properly, rewinding itself) in relation to space. Another analogy: think of two stationary balls of twine that are both directly connected to a third (albeit unseen) ball. If one were to wind the hidden ball, the visible balls would shrink in accordance to the amount of material being pulled away from each of them. So, as the hidden ball grows larger, the area between the others would seem to be increasing, when what’s really happening is that the respective sizes of the visible balls are decreasing in a constant space. The speed at which material is being pulled away from the two visible balls is directly proportional with the rates at which they're decreasing in size, and those commensurate decreases constitute the impetus for the illusion of expanding space between them. I believe this is essentially what's happening everywhere in the cosmos, and that it’s only a matter of time before the ‘hidden ball’ (the ultimate re-collector) becomes “visible” (if only by virtue of its effects) from nearly any point of view in the universe.

    The Principle of Commensurate Distribution

    Commensurate distribution is a vital aspect of my theory. Because all 'things' within a given group are contracting commensurately, the size differential from one second to the next is virtually undetectable from within that group. In reality though, what were 12 inches yesterday (relative E.G. to the group in which humanity resides) aren't the same twelve inches today, because all things in the group (including the area that qualifies as a 'foot') have contracted at paces suited to their surroundings. This explains how and why we (humans) are completely oblivious to the shrinking going on all around us. It is only by 'looking outside' that the various rates of contraction can be measured (via redshift observations).

    To sum it up: we all know cosmic redshifting shows that groups of material are apparently speeding away from each other. Expansionists presume that "space" isn't constant and that it must be expanding between the groups; I suggest that the groups are shrinking in relation to constant space. The correct answer, as to which idea the redshift "evidence" supports …is both -- meaning the issue of 'truth' stands on the veracity of opposing interpretations.

    I liked Meurid's OP above, a new member to BAUT,

    so when he decided not to continue his OP I asked his permission to defend his fundamental ideas because they have a kinship to my own cosmological model and I liked the "ring" to his words "incredible shrinking universe" since my own words "diminution of matter" are much less dramatic

    So we can pick up where he left off if you wish. The OP can stand as it was originally stated above and if you asked questions before I will answer according to my own related model using his OP.

    I have repeated Meurid's OP above (with his permission) here so that no one will have to look back.

    best regards, Forrest
    Q1: So, if the "universe is shrinking", how come we observe spectral redshift?
    Q2: What falsifiable predictions does your ATM make?
    Q3: Where is the mathematical formalism for your ATM?

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    What is your take on blueshift?
    How do you think the rate of shrinkage of all things is synchronised to give the impression that there is a linear relationship between distance and redshift?
    Why is this model required? What is its new predictions/explanations? Is it just a clunky recoordinatisation of the standard picture?

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    answer posting #2

    macaw,

    Q1: So, if the "universe is shrinking", how come we observe spectral redshift?
    As you know if matter was very slowly getting smaller there would be more space. In almost every way there would be no difference if matter was getting smaller or space is expanding. Larger matter in the distant past would have produced longer wave lengths which we call redshifted.
    Q2: What falsifiable predictions does your ATM make?
    There are many, but one of the primary involves the new creation of matter from the ZPF primarily surrounding galactic black holes. Another is that matter very slowly pares itself down probably within stars.

    Q3:Where is the mathematical formalism for your ATM?
    Like the BB model which is based upon General Relativity, mine is also based upon my theory of gravity presented here in BAUT in a prior ATM.
    Last edited by forrest noble; 2011-Feb-04 at 06:50 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    answer posting #2

    Hi macaw,

    As you know if matter was very slowly getting smaller there would be more space.
    Q4: But the redshift indicates that the distances are getting larger very fast, not very slowly as you claim. So, how does your ATM do against experimental evidence?


    In almost every way there would be no difference if matter was getting smaller or space is expanding.
    Sure there would, if our Earth were getting smaller, there would be a lot of effects that we could measure, induced tension (compression) being one of them.

    Q5: How come that we do not detect any such effects?


    Larger matter in the distant past would have produced longer wave lengths which we call redshifted.
    Q6: This is not the mainstream explanation of redshift, are you developing yet another, different ATM within this thread?

    There are many, but one of the primary involves the new creation of matter from the ZPF primarily surrounding galactic black holes. Another is that matter very slowly pares itself down probably within stars.
    Q7: Isn't this the subject of another ATM of yours that has been already rebutted? How does it answer the challenges against the ATM in this thread?


    Like the BB model which is based upon General Relativity, mine is also based upon my theory of gravity presented here in BAUT in a prior ATM.
    I thought that you were not allowed to link in closed threads based on already rebutted ATMs. Besides, I have asked you where is your mathematical formalism, there isn't any in this thread nor in the closed thread you pointed to.
    Last edited by macaw; 2010-Dec-29 at 07:49 PM.

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    answer posting #3

    Shaula,

    What is your take on blueshift?
    Blueshift is the relative motion toward us by Andromeda and some other members of the local group.

    How do you think the rate of shrinkage of all things is synchronised to give the impression that there is a linear relationship between distance and redshift?
    Larger matter in the past would produce the same correlation of distance to redshift as we presently calculate. The farther away the larger the atoms and the longer the redshift produced.

    Why is this model required?
    Accordingly this model explains how the universe really works. Space is not expanding and new matter is being created from the ZPF primarily surrounding galactic black holes, therefore the universe remains of constant density, just less quantities of it as you go back in time.

    What is its new predictions/explanations?
    These are the new predictions. The new explanations, of course, depend on the questions.

    Is it just a clunky recoordinatisation of the standard picture?
    In this model there was no Big Bang. The universe is generally of constant density. Everything in this model is far simpler.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post

    In this model there was no Big Bang. The universe is generally of constant density. Everything in this model is far simpler.
    Q8: How do you reconcile the above with the observations of Hulse and Taylor of CMBR? You realize that the observations falsify your ATM?

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    Your reference to the pdf states as a prediction that the observed CMB is the result of continuous absorption, refraction and re-emittance of background radiation by the intergalactic medium.

    CM1: Please explain the observed isotropy of the CMBR.
    CM2: Please predict the observed temperature of the CMBR using your formalism.
    CM3: Please predict the observed spectrum (specifically the primary anisotropy) of the CMBR using your formalism.
    CM4: Please predict the observed polarity of the CMBR using your formalism.
    Last edited by caveman1917; 2010-Dec-29 at 09:40 PM. Reason: made it clear questions are re CMBR rather than re IGM

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    Quote Originally Posted by caveman1917 View Post
    Your reference to the pdf states as a prediction that the observed CMB is the result of continuous absorption, refraction and re-emittance of background radiation by the intergalactic medium.

    CM1: Please explain the observed isotropy of the CMBR.
    CM2: Please predict the observed temperature using your formalism.
    CM3: Please predict the observed spectrum (specifically the primary anisotropy) using your formalism.
    CM4: Please predict the observed polarity using your formalism.
    Questions about the properties of the intergalactic medium are off topic for this thread.

    forrest noble,

    You've been warned before about making links to your book specific to the topic of your ATM threads. Linking to a laundry list of pan theory predictions without explaining their exact relevance to this thread is not in compliance with those warnings. Linking to closed ATM threads is not compliant with our rules. If you continue doing this, you risk thread closure and infraction.
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  10. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    answer posting #2

    Hi macaw,

    As you know if matter was very slowly getting smaller there would be more space. In almost every way there would be no difference if matter was getting smaller or space is expanding. Larger matter in the distant past would have produced longer wave lengths which we call redshifted. ...
    I'm sorry, but this cannot be right.
    Observations show that galaxies one mega parsec distant from us would be receding at 70km/s and that galaxies two mega parsecs from us would be receding at 140km/s. For your matter shrinking idea to accommodate this observation, the matter at twice the distance would have to be shrinking at twice the rate, at three times the distance, three times the rate, etc.

    I don't see how your idea could work, given observations.
    problems worthy of attack prove their worth by hitting back (Piet Hein)I cook with wine, and sometime I even add it to the food. (W.C. Fields)
    I don't ask stupid questions. I just make stupid statements!!!
    Experience is a wonderful thing. It enables you to recognize a mistake when you make it again.
    All truths are simple to understand, once they are found. The challenge is finding them. (attrib. to Galileo)


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    Since there was a bit of confusion about my set of questions, i'll reword them to hopefully clear them up.

    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    The universe is generally of constant density.
    If that is so, please explain the following properties of the CMBR:
    CM1: the observed isotropy
    CM2: the observed temperature
    CM3: the observed spectrum
    CM4: the observed polarity

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    Given that clarification, I consider the questions to be on topic and answerable per rule 13.
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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Blueshift is the relative motion toward us by Andromeda and some other members of the local group.
    So motion towards and away from us can exactly reproduce what we see. Your addition of shrinkage is basically not required.
    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Larger matter in the past would produce the same correlation of distance to redshift as we presently calculate. The farther away the larger the atoms and the longer the redshift produced.
    Larger pieces of matter produce large waves? What evidence do you have for that, by that I mean mathematical of course as you cannot easily inflate matter. Or is this another postulate that you are making?
    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Accordingly this model explains how the universe really works. Space is not expanding and new matter is being created from the ZPF primarily surrounding galactic black holes, therefore the universe remains of constant density, just less quantities of it as you go back in time.... In this model there was no Big Bang. The universe is generally of constant density. Everything in this model is far simpler.
    That is pure judgement. I consider the theory of shrinking matter to be even more full of gaps and ad hocs than you would have us believe the current theory is. It is not, to me, more simple but far, far more complex as it requires numerous scale factors and fudge factors to make it work. It requires several arbitrary definitions of things like dominant gravitational body and purely fitted rates of shrinkage. In short it seems to me to be a more complex reformulation of the current models, providing little or no explanations of unknowns and needing more calculation. I am not reading your link, I am afraid, as it is not pertinent to the original theory which you are here to defend, it seems. Should you wish this to be a thread about your theory, not the OPs, then you need to include the details here and not via a link.

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    answer posting #5

    Q4: But the redshift indicates that the distances are getting larger very fast, not very slowly as you claim.
    Fast or slow, as I'm sure you know, is simply a relative term.

    8 Ľ billion years ago wave lengths would accordingly have been twice as long as well as the diameter of atoms. To me that seems like a slow rate, but again that is subjective.

    So, how does your ATM do against experimental evidence?
    You need to ask how this model might explain particular experiments or observations.

    Regarding evidence that the Earth is getting smaller:

    Sure there would, if our Earth were getting smaller, there would be a lot of effects that we could measure, induced tension (compression) being one of them.

    Q5: How come that we do not detect any such effects?
    This model can be classified as a Scaling Theory. This is a broad class of cosmological theories. In Scaling Theories the scale of everything (or almost everything) changes over time. In this case matter would get smaller by giving off a little bit of itself at the atomic level over time and everything would also be getting relatively smaller.

    Q6: This is not the mainstream explanation of redshift, are you developing yet another, different ATM within this thread? If matter is getting smaller this simply explains the redshifts that we observe.
    Re: Creation of new matter
    Q7: Isn't this the subject of another ATM of yours that has been already rebutted? No, my other ATM threads did not need the creation of new matter.

    How does it answer the challenges against the ATM in this thread?
    New matter is created from the ZPF which is comprised of string-like material. As matter gets smaller it gives off material to the ZPF which in time reformulates into this new matter.

    Mathematical formalism? As was stated, this was the subject of a previous ATM thread

    Which I gave the link to , posting #11, and all the related questions and answers concerning this gravity formulation in the previous ATM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    answer posting #5



    Fast or slow, as I'm sure you know, is simply a relative term.
    This is false since the amount of shift accurately reflects the amount of frequency shift. So, for your slow relative speed, the amount of frequency shift predicted by your ATM is much less than the observed shift. Besides, your ATM predicts blueshift and what is observed is redshift, so you got two things wrong. Meaning that your ATM is falsified by experiment.

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    Answer posting #9,

    predictions most specific to this OP proposal

    …….specific to the topic of your ATM…
    The numbers below are the designated numbers of the predictions

    3. Distant galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, galactic jets, and supernovae will all be perceived as being larger, brighter, moving faster, than they really were in their own time frame.

    7. All matter slowly discards roughly 1/1000 portion of its present “size” every 5 million years, in the form of fundamental particles, to an omni-present background-field the ZPF. Therefore atomic particles, as well as all others, would accordingly have a small variation in their mass in the overall population of the same particles. ---- At the same time matter increases in quantity to maintain the constant density of matter in space.

    22. Most large Galaxies would have been created from the inside out. Most of the matter and stars of any large galaxy would have been produced from field material (aether) surrounding the central black hole and ejected in large polar jets or polar emitted clouds, primarily in the form of protons, electrons, and positrons.

    45. Some galactic polar jets are truly super-luminous relative to the galaxy and the central black
    hole which produces them which would not be just a condition of relativity.

    51. Particle variation: There should be a small variation between the size and weight of individual protons, electrons, neutrons, short-lived particles, and also atoms of the same element.

    71. The density of matter in the observable universe in any time frame would accordingly be generally constant. This prediction is fundamental to the Pan Theory of Relativity and is directly related to the diminution of matter and the concurrent creation of new matter.

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    Answer posting #10,

    AstroRockHunter,

    I'm sorry, but this cannot be right.
    Observations show that galaxies one mega parsec distant from us would be receding at 70km/s and that galaxies two mega parsecs from us would be receding at 140km/s. For your matter shrinking idea to accommodate this observation, the matter at twice the distance would have to be shrinking at twice the rate, at three times the distance, three times the rate, etc.

    I don't see how your idea could work, given observations.
    The Hubble formula accordingly works the same whether space is expanding or matter is becoming smaller. In both cases there is the same relationship between recession velocity and distance as determined by the B factor in the Hubble formula. In both cases the perspective of a Doppler shift is used to determine the B factor in the formula, whereby there is no real galactic motion involved in either model.

    In both cases at one mega parsec the apparent recession velocity would be about .0002367 times c, and at 2 mega parsecs the recession velocity would be .0004733 times c, twice as much.

    The redshift change, on the other hand, would be 1.0002367/ 1.0004734, a very small ratio concerning a change in the size of matter.

    http://hyperphysics.phy-astr.gsu.edu...ro/hubble.html
    Last edited by forrest noble; 2011-Jan-16 at 10:25 PM.

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    answer posting #11

    caveman1917,

    If that is so, please explain the following properties of the CMBR

    CM1: the observed isotropy CM2: the observed temperature?
    Of course in a universe uniform in density as this model proposes, the temperature of the intergalactic medium would be expected to be rather uniform. I have done no calculations myself but others have over time, estimated temperatures of the galactic and intergalactic medium.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timelin...ound_astronomy

    CM3: the observed spectrum
    Again a blackbody spectrum would be expected based upon uniform absorption like a blackbody. This requires the ZPF to act like a type of black body, via a type of dark matter/ aether which this model asserts.

    CM4: the observed polarity
    The bi-polar aspect of the CMBR can be explained by the Milky Way’s relative motion. This applies to the standard model as well as this model. Other claimed multi-polarity in the CMBR and the related explanations thereof, I think are speculative regardless of the model.

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    answer posting #13,

    Quote Originally Posted by Shaula View Post
    So motion towards and away from us can exactly reproduce what we see. Your addition of shrinkage is basically not required.

    Larger pieces of matter produce large waves? What evidence do you have for that, by that I mean mathematical of course as you cannot easily inflate matter. Or is this another postulate that you are making?

    That is pure judgement. I consider the theory of shrinking matter to be even more full of gaps and ad hocs than you would have us believe the current theory is. It is not, to me, more simple but far, far more complex as it requires numerous scale factors and fudge factors to make it work. It requires several arbitrary definitions of things like dominant gravitational body and purely fitted rates of shrinkage. In short it seems to me to be a more complex reformulation of the current models, providing little or no explanations of unknowns and needing more calculation. I am not reading your link, I am afraid, as it is not pertinent to the original theory which you are here to defend, it seems. Should you wish this to be a thread about your theory, not the OPs, then you need to include the details here and not via a link.
    Larger pieces of matter produce large waves? What evidence do you have for that, by that I mean mathematical of course as you cannot easily inflate matter. Or is this another postulate that you are making?
    Larger matter produced longer waves. This is the way Scaling Theory works. Everything proportionally changes in scale.

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    Reply to posting #7

    macaw,

    Q8: How do you reconcile the above with the observations of Hulse and Taylor of CMBR? You realize that the observations falsify your ATM?
    You need to provide a link to a particular paper of Hulse and Taylor and tell why you think it relates to this thread, otherwise I cannot guess your question.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Answer posting #9,

    predictions most specific to this OP proposal



    The numbers below are the designated numbers of the predictions

    3. Distant galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, galactic jets, and supernovae will all be perceived as being larger, brighter, moving faster, than they really were in their own time frame.
    Galaxies don't move in "their own frame". Actually, no object is moving in "its own frame".

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Reply to posting #7

    macaw,



    You need to provide a link to a particular paper of Hulse and Taylor and tell why you think it relates to this thread, otherwise I cannot guess your question.
    You will need to learn that you need to research your subject before you propose ATMs. Hulse-Taylor got their Nobel prize for tying the CMBR observations to the big bang theory. So, by your ATM denying the BB, it gets instantaneously falsified by experimental observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by macaw View Post
    Galaxies don't move in "their own frame". Actually, no object is moving in "its own frame".
    (bold added)

    my quote:
    3. Distant galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, galactic jets, and supernovae will all be perceived as being larger, brighter, moving faster, than they really were in their own time frame.
    Misquote: "....................in their own time frame."
    Last edited by forrest noble; 2010-Dec-31 at 03:41 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    my quote:


    Misquote: "....................in their own time frame."
    Same error. Look, forrest, you are just making wild claims combined with elementary errors. When the errors are pointed out to you, you just come up with more errors. Why don't you look at the errors pointed out to you and correct your wild claims?

  25. #25
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
    Posts
    2,273
    Postings which are my answers/replies.

    #4,6,14,16,17,18,19,20

    Other’s questions, moderator requests
    #2,3,5,7,9,10,11,12,13

    Comments to me, by me, or general
    #8 (rephrased as question #11),15,21,22,23

    Erroneous questions that have nothing to do with OP: none

    All Postings are accounted for above or below: 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,2 0,21,22,23

    I am presently working on questions in posting # (none) and will generally be sequentially answering questions or may be responding to comments in the order they were posted. All previous questions and answers have been accounted for above. If you think you have an unanswered question please repeat the question and refer to the posting that you believe is unanswered as most have done. If you did not understand my answer then also refer to the posting and answer that you did not understand, where you wish me to elaborate further.

    I will generally not respond to what appears to be a rhetorical question(s), comments that I think are rude, false, sarcasm (or worse), snarcasms, irrelevant or incorrect statements, or just opinion. I will try to respond to polite comments, as time permits

    My Posting #4 was my answer/ response for posting #2:

    #4 for 2
    #6 for 3
    #14 for 5
    #16 for 9
    #17 for 10
    #18 for 11
    #19 for 13
    #20 for 7
    Last edited by forrest noble; 2010-Dec-31 at 04:36 AM.

  26. #26
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    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Postings which are my answers/replies.

    #4,6,14,16,17,18,19,20

    Other’s questions, moderator requests
    #2,3,5,7,9,10,11,12,13

    Comments to me, by me, or general
    #8 (rephrased as question #11),15,21,22,23

    Erroneous questions that have nothing to do with OP: none

    All Postings are accounted for above or below: 2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,13,14,15,16,17,18,19,2 0,21,22,23

    I am presently working on questions in posting # (none) and will generally be sequentially answering questions or may be responding to comments in the order they were posted. All previous questions and answers have been accounted for above. If you think you have an unanswered question please repeat the question and refer to the posting that you believe is unanswered as most have done. If you did not understand my answer then also refer to the posting and answer that you did not understand, where you wish me to elaborate further.

    I will generally not respond to what appears to be a rhetorical question(s), comments that I think are rude, false, sarcasm (or worse), snarcasms, irrelevant or incorrect statements, or just opinion. I will try to respond to polite comments, as time permits

    My Postings #4 was my answer/ response for posting #2:

    #4 for 2
    #6 for 3
    #14 for 5
    #16 for 9
    #17 for 10
    #18 for 11
    #19 for 13
    #20 for 7
    You never acknowledged the errors in your ATM pointed out in post 15.

  27. #27
    Join Date
    Jan 2008
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    reply posting #26,

    Quote Originally Posted by macaw View Post
    You never acknowledged the errors in your ATM pointed out in post 15.
    This is not a question but a statement that involves the logical fallacy of "Complex Question."

  28. #28
    Join Date
    Oct 2007
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    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    reply posting #26,



    This is not a question but a statement that involves the logical fallacy of "Complex Question."
    Q10: so, how do you answer the fact that your ATM is falsified by experimental evidence?

  29. #29
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    Mar 2004
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    13,441
    Quote Originally Posted by forrest noble View Post
    Answer posting #9,

    predictions most specific to this OP proposal



    The numbers below are the designated numbers of the predictions

    3. Distant galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, galactic jets, and supernovae will all be perceived as being larger, brighter, moving faster, than they really were in their own time frame.

    7. All matter slowly discards roughly 1/1000 portion of its present “size” every 5 million years, in the form of fundamental particles, to an omni-present background-field the ZPF. Therefore atomic particles, as well as all others, would accordingly have a small variation in their mass in the overall population of the same particles. ---- At the same time matter increases in quantity to maintain the constant density of matter in space.

    22. Most large Galaxies would have been created from the inside out. Most of the matter and stars of any large galaxy would have been produced from field material (aether) surrounding the central black hole and ejected in large polar jets or polar emitted clouds, primarily in the form of protons, electrons, and positrons.

    45. Some galactic polar jets are truly super-luminous relative to the galaxy and the central black
    hole which produces them which would not be just a condition of relativity.

    51. Particle variation: There should be a small variation between the size and weight of individual protons, electrons, neutrons, short-lived particles, and also atoms of the same element.

    71. The density of matter in the observable universe in any time frame would accordingly be generally constant. This prediction is fundamental to the Pan Theory of Relativity and is directly related to the diminution of matter and the concurrent creation of new matter.
    NQ1: (re 3): what is the quantitative relationship between distance ("distant galaxies, quasars, gamma ray bursts, galactic jets, and supernovae") and apparent size, brightness, and speed?

    NQ2: (re 3) what is the quantitative relationship between apparent size, brightness, and speed and what "they really were in their own time frame"?

    NQ3: (re 7) what are the "fundamental particles" that are "discarded" "to an omni-present background-field the ZPF"?

    NQ4: (re 22) what do you mean by "large" ("Most large Galaxies")? Please be specific.

    NQ5: (re 22) what are "Galaxies" ("Most large Galaxies")? Please be specific.

    NQ6: (re ) please provide some approximate estimates for "most" ("Most large Galaxies" and "Most of the matter and stars of any large galaxy").

    NQ7: (re 45) please provide an approximate estimates for "some" ("Some galactic polar jets")

    NQ8: (re 45) What does "truly super-luminous relative to the galaxy and the central black hole which produces them" mean?

    NQ9: (re 51) please provide an approximate estimate for "small" ("There should be a small variation between the size and weight of individual protons, electrons, neutrons, short-lived particles, and also atoms of the same element")

    NQ10: (re 51) what are "the size and weight" of particles? Specifically, how can these be measured?

  30. #30
    Surely a shrinking universe that exhibits an expanding wavelength of light with a consistent energy would require that several fundamental forces be variable.


    1.GRAVITY AND MASS
    As Gravity obeys the inverse square law either the mass of all particles are decreasing or the gravitational constant is since in a shrinking universe with constant gravitational effects massive objects would appear to become more massive over time. As the distance between objects appeared to expand the gravitational field strength would appear to increase.

    This would either break the principle of conservation of energy and/or exhibit telltale effects on the observable universe that we just don't see.

    2. ELECTROMAGNETISM
    Considering the wavelength of light to be solely a factor of the scale of the observer (as though it were purely a physical property) neglects that it is primarily a function of energy.
    Shrinking atoms would entail shrinking electron orbits and relative redshifting would require for the quantum energy levels to be increasing.
    In short a significant variation of the fine structure constant.
    This would surely be obvious in the emission spectra of distant stars, they wouldn't simply be redshifted but would also have greater spacing.

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