Administrator
JAXAiOriginally Posted by JAXAi
Yes, seriously. We have very strict rules on language. If you have not reviewed the rules you may wish to do so, in this case rule 3, which gives the explanation.
I would also point out to both you and NEOWatcher rules 16 and 17, which cover reporting questionable posts and discussing rules and moderator actions, neither of which should be done in this thread.
Thank you for your cooperation.
Established Member
I'm pretty sure Borglum's men didn't use diamond- or carbide-edged tools to carve Mt. Rushmore. To be fair, they didn't use ancient tools, either (dynamite did nearly all of the heavy lifting). The point is that those particular tools aren't necessary for carving or shaping granite.
Last edited by MartianMarvin; 2010-Dec-30 at 06:57 PM. Reason: Borglon should be Borglum.
Established Member
Whats blatantly obvious is no=one here can remotely adaquately refute the chromosone question.
Hence the massive effort to unsettle and ban him as quickly as possible, dont want your schoolkid viewers being left with doubts, so dis-appear him as soon as, pronto.
Why is there no inbetween fossil records,ITS NOT A NATURAL OCCURANCE IS HIS STANCE, counter that, instead of employing under-hand debating tactics.
If you can, which i doubt very much, you will sooner attack me now, as futile as that will be,rather than attack the subject.
Order of Kilopi
It's been responded to by several posters, and that there may be gaps in the fossil record is no evidence for some alien intervention. New fossils turn up every so often to fill in bits of the human evolutionary story but theres no guarantee we will ever have a clear unbroken lineage established, especially given that most hominids had relatively sparse populations.
Order of Kilopi
Can you explain what in-between forms you would expect to see in the fossil record, because it isn't clear to me.
Bad Post-Doc
Are we somehow expecting to see evidence of chromosome change in the fossil record? Because that's the only thing I can at all see has not been explained here.
And if it is, here's the answer. DNA doesn't fossilize at all well.
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Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Member
Now the mainstream science believes that stone age man had limited knowledge, all of a sudden we get examples of his awesome knowledge in astronomy. That should be acknowledged at least and should be taught in school books, that our ancestors knew that earth rotates around sun, but this had to be rediscovered again in middle ages.
Please quote a link, saying I saw a documentary does not prove anything. Share the knowledge with us.
Seriously, 1000 ton stone, we have cranes now that can pick up 60 tons at a time. You say with the help of pits and barges you can place a 1000 tone stone slab in place may be 100 feet high in a megalithic structure. I will try to find this out, in the mean time, again please post some links demonstrating such techniques.
As for story of evolution from Darwin, he himself removed an example from his final book, "A bear taking to the water turning into fish and becoming monstrous whales", so the story narrates that one species turning into another and still such an example is not digestible by its own author, its a known fact that he had his reservation with majority of the evolution story. It should be noted that I am not saying that Aliens cam here and made human beings, I am just saying till we find the missing link, we should not close our eyes on new theories that might explain human origins.
Established Member
Nor to me.
So i had a little nosy around to see if a could get a better handle on it.
You may find both the question and answer in these links interesting, i know i did.
Question
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...3720.Ev.q.html
Answer
http://www.madsci.org/posts/archives...3720.Ev.r.html
Administrator
manxman,
Chill. There is no massive effort to ban anyone, including you. But we will enforce the rules that we have, including those on language. And as I already said, this thread is not the place to discuss the rules or their enforcement.
We also have rules that those advocating non-mainstream ideas, such as ancient aliens, are required to prove their ideas. It is not up to the rest of us to disprove them, though individual members may address questions if they wish to.
So, since you are talking up the gauntlet of ancient aliens, it is up to you to prove them and to answer questions put to you. If you do not, you will be infracted, without any massive effort.
Administrator
I do not believe mainstream science believes stone age man had either limited knowledge or awesome knowledge. But there is ample evidence that many ancient cultures had a good practical working knowledge of astronomy, that could be obtained by careful naked eye observations, record keeping, and in some cases, simple math. None of what they knew required that they understand the Earth rotates around the sun, nor is there evidence that this was known.
As far as being taught in school, I took a course in the History of Visual Astronomy in 1979 at my undergraduate school, Polytechnic Institute of New York. We covered many of these topics. Google archaeoastronomy for a lot more information, including multiple textbooks.
Established Member
Strange
It looks like he asked the same questions here aswell.
http://www.newton.dep.anl.gov/askasc.../mole00679.htm.
Moderator
I am not taking his torch, couldnt careless about ancient astronauts, i wanted to learn more about the chromosome gig.
I have now done that, its clear no-one knows why it happened, only occams razor has been applied, and a common consensus reached.
Established Member
If there is one, it is: no-one knows.
In the absense of facts one can only speculate.
Member
At this point, I would also like to draw attention to Sumerian tablet "Cylinder seal VA 243". This clearly proves they knew very well about our solar system.
Administrator
One website debunking that
Previous discussion, right here on BAUT
Member
Its a tablet up for interpretation, one interpretation is as good as another, till the Sumerians come and tell what it means.
Mayan calendar
Newbie
very well said...Its a tablet up for interpretation, one interpretation is as good as another, till the Sumerians come and tell what it means.
Mayan calendar
the current prevelant theories ahave a lot of holes...the ancient astronomer theory is another theory and must be given due consideration...
the main issues from where the ancient astronomy theory comes forward are the ones that seem to be either unexplained by the prevelant theories or the current anomalies in these theories...dwarinism is facing Major setbacks by our gains in microbiology as they keep on finding big holes and unexplained phenomenon like the very famous 'junk DNA' of the dwarvinists or the 'missing link' in the evolution chain......nobody is saying that evolution is non - existant ..but it is clearly failing to explain the link between current humans and the primitive fossil we have found...
Also, at one point we say that the ancient civilizations should be advanced enough to build mega structure and engineering marvels like the pyramids and all and in the same breath we are also denying all that their scriptures are saying and pointing towards...i find that a bit hypocritic.
Bad Post-Doc
What about "Mayan calendar"? You mean the fact that it rolls over and no serious scholar of Mayan history or culture believes this 2012 nonsense?
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Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Member
^ No man, I mean that Mayan calendar proves that ancients had the knowledge that Earth rotates around the Sun.
Also here :
“The sun has tied Earth and other planets through attraction and moves them around itself as if a trainer moves newly trained horses around itself holding their reins.”
Rig Veda 10.149.1
Rig Veda might be 7000 BC old.
Order of Kilopi
No, it's a cylinder seal, one of thousands, and only of medium quality. It's probably only about one inch high. They were made as signature seals for individuals.
Those things were mass products. Placing any kind of meaning on any individual detail is absolutely ridiculous.
And, the debunking page cited above isn't very good.
Bad Post-Doc
No doubt you can explain in your own words and without having to link to any websites how.
_____________________________________________
Gillian
"Now everyone was giving her that kind of look UFOlogists get when they suddenly say, 'Hey, if you shade your eyes you can see it is just a flock of geese after all.'"
"You can't erase icing."
"I can't believe it doesn't work! I found it on the internet, man!"
Administrator
No, one interpretation is not as good as another. The claim that aliens visited the Earth is an extraordinary claim and requires extraordinary evidence. There are ordinary explanations for what is on that tablet (seal, whatever), that don't require aliens. That is not only how science works, but it how the rules around here work. The burden is on you to prove your extraordinary claim.
In fact, if you read through the references I posted, there are inconsistencies in the "alien" explanation that don't make sense. For example, there are eleven "objects" around the "sun". It is claimed that these represent the planets in our solar system, including those not visible to the naked eye. But if somehow (via aliens for example), the Sumerians knew of these objects only visible in a telescope, why didn't they also know other such things, such as the fact that Saturn has rings. And why is the Sun represented by a symbol that was not the standard Sumerian symbol for the Sun.
Administrator
In the course I mentioned earlier in the thread, we studied the Mayan calendar extensively (I also did a term paper on it) and continued to read about it since then. I know of nothing in the Mayan calendar that shows the Mayans knew the Earth rotated around the sun. Do you have any sort of reference that shows otherwise?
I Googled Rig Veda and it is apparently a Hindu text of some sort (it would nice if you explained that). Do you have any scholarly interpretations of that single line and what it means?Also here :
The sun has tied Earth and other planets through attraction and moves them around itself as if a trainer moves newly trained horses around itself holding their reins.
Rig Veda 10.149.1
Established Member
I am also interested in this claim - but what is the provenance of the Rig Veda, and specifically the verses in question? It seems that much of it was orally handed down over the ages, and Wiki (that source of all that is true) states "the oldest surviving Rigvedic manuscript dat(es) to the 14th century"... Hmm.
I'm certainly open to seeing more evidentiary coverage, but if the claim is based on translations from very much more recent manuscripts, then the possibility of later additions or revisions is there... Any Rigvedic scholars about?
Member
I am not claiming that. Remember the discussion started with if the ancients knew about the fact that earth revolves around the sun.
Established Member
How does the Mayan calendar "prove" its designers were aware of Earth revolving around the Sun?
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Indeed, tho I must say I'm not entirely sure about your proposed timing. I'll have to check up on this.
One reason Starchild Skull mythologist Loyd Pye (who I assume you mean with the elusive Mr. Pie) attributes immense gravitas to the perculiar nature of the human chromosome #2 is that he's not an evolutionary biologist or geneticist AFAIK. Another reason is that he is a believer in directed evolution and is aversive of the more parsimonous explanation of a chance mutation that left the human chromosome 2 with both a vestigial centromere and two vestigial telomeres (so the joining is hardly as neat as he makes it to be in the quote).
The dog, the dog, he's at it again!
Newbie
i am not a scholar but i can say this much with confidence that the vedas have a near holy place in hinduism and almost all other sub-continent religions reer to them someplace or another. The ancient Indian society had a whole section - 'Brahmins' dedicated to learning, preserving and teaching the vedas... Also, Sansrit is a language that has survived right from the olden times and is still taught in Indian schools as part of the curriculum..in the wake of these two points, i think we can safely rule out any misinterpretations or wrong translations while carrying forward through the years...
The translations were also done by and studied by many English scholars when the english came to India and i have not heard of any doubts being raised on the authenticity of these translations from anywhere...
Newbie
The main reason that the ancient astronaut theory holds good ground in my thought is that if we look around and see tthe current state which we Humans are at ...if we see the developments in microbiology, astronomy, space exploration and science and tech. in general...it seems almost given that we shall move out of earth in the future (if we keep developing at same rate, of course)...there are already talks of mining operations on the moon for He-3 which is hailed as the next generation fusion fuel...
If we sense the direction in which all our science fiction writings go, we can see all our thoughts on space exploration are aimed right at moving out from our planet and depending on point view, to find newer planeets to live on or to interactc with other species, or to use other planets for our own growth and sustainence...it seems entirely plausible and the most ordinary direction that our future can be extrapolated as...
this line of thought of thought is what afirmed the ancient astronomer theory as a plausible theory in my mind....why cant another civilization on another planet have already done so??? isn't it a little cruel on the universe if we think that it can only spawn one planet of living beings who have developed this far??
Order of Kilopi
This fellow demonstrates methods that allow a single person using simple tools to move massive blocks:
http://www.theforgottentechnology.com/
In relatively recent history the Russians used simple tools to move a 1600 ton stone:
http://it.stlawu.edu/~rkreuzer/pete16/pete16.htm
There actually turn out to be a number of methods for moving large masses with simple tools. It does require ingenuity, but not advanced technology.The 1600 ton piece of granite, on which the statue would stand was located in Lahta on the Gulf of Finland. "Peter had affectionately named it ‘Thunder’ and from it he used to observed the surroundings." (http://win.www.online.ru/sp/fresh/sights.senate.htm). It was "raised by levers, put on a platform of logs and rolled on copper balls along rails with grooves to the Gulf of Finland from whence a specially constructed barge delivered it to the square by the Senate ." (http://www.ccs.neu.edu/home/dima/peter.html).
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Order of Kilopi
No, I strongly disagree. Along with being an extraordinary interpretation, it is not consistent with the body of evidence that we have about the Sumerian culture. It also isn't consistent with the solar system.
This gets into the problem I mentioned earlier. While the books of some of the ancient astronaut proponents can be fun to read, they have a habit of doing poor research. That is, they often will come up with things that are physically unlikely and come up with "interpretations" of artifacts or stories that ignore other information we have on the originating culture.
Last edited by Van Rijn; 2010-Dec-30 at 09:24 AM.
I say there is an invisible elf in my backyard. How do you prove that I am wrong?
The Leif Ericson Cruiser
Order of Kilopi
Its a tablet up for interpretation, one interpretation is as good as another, till the Sumerians come and tell what it means.
Mayan calendarNo, it really isn't well said. There are informed interpretations, and there are uninformed interpretations. There are interpretations which fit the facts we have available, and interpretations that are nothing more than flights of fancy. Cylinder seal VA243 clearly does not support the notion that the Sumerians had detailed knowledge of the solar system; the only possible reason for anyone thinking that it does is because they want it to.
In this thread I am seeing one group of people provide reasonable explanations for apparent mysteries, including the work of archaeologists who have got off their backsides and demonstrated how ancient people could have performed amazing feats of engineering. And I'm seeing another group of people who are ignoring this, and effectively saying, "We don't know how this was done so it must be aliens."
Which group is the narrow-minded one?
This is because we understand that ancient people, like modern people, make up stories.
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