Pre-historic diets

[Swift]

It seems that "Night Soil" (raw human waste for fertilising use) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Night_soil was quite an industry.

And that article supports neither of your contentions: that "Human feces is one of the most 'nutritious'-laden in the animal kingdom" and that "If the excrement of 7 billion humans could some how be used, there would be almost no need for the synthetic fertiliser industry". So again, what support do you have for either statement?

That article also points out the following:

The use of human feces as fertilizer is a risky practice as it may contain disease-causing pathogens.

[wd40]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Compost#.22Humanure.22
"Human fecal matter and urine have high percentages of nitrogen, phosphorus, potassium, carbon, and calcium. It is equal to many fertilizers and manures purchased in garden stores."

It seems that "bovine scatos" is superior as a fertiliser
http://answers.yahoo.com/question/in...9123459AAQx1vd

After composting from raw feces down to manure, 'humanure' seems to be safe.

[HenrikOlsen]

Human feces is one of the most 'nutritious'-laden in the animal kingdom, and that it is not somehow being plowed back in to the top soil, like it used to be, deprives it of a substance as precious as gold. If the excrement of 7 billion humans could some how be used, there would be almost no need for the synthetic fertiliser industry.

As humans are omnivores, our feces are actually far less nutritional as fertilizer than that of e.g. cows, because our efficiency at getting energy out of what we eat is higher.

Once again you're arguing from false facts.

[wd40]

Is there any way that the inch-thick manure-depleted topsoil from which 10 billion humans will have to live off could become so nutrient depleted in the next century that it becomes a food production survival problem, even with modern farming techniques and drenching with synthetic fertilisers? http://www.seattlepi.com/default/art...ng-1262214.php

[HenrikOlsen]

Yes.

[cran]

I've just skimmed through and noticed a few things -

on the matter of climbing trees to find eggs -
they wouldn't bother;
the easiest eggs would be found on or in the ground,
and there were a lot more ground-laying birds (and reptiles) in those days.
A single ostrich egg = omelette for 6.
That also applies for molar-less infants -
egg is a common part of their diet.

on the matter of finding tools for hunting, etc -
after sharpened stones and bones, and pointy sticks,
an observant scavenger could also find
various tusks and pointy teeth and horns,
and spines or mimosa thorns for fine work ...
the really clever ones figured out how to turn a pliable vine into a snare,
and how to hide a hole in the ground ...

on the matter of the value in manures -
the first return on investment comes from the volatiles;
rich enough dried deposits can be used as fire-aids.
Human manure is on par with pig manure
for volatiles and nutrient composition.

[HenrikOlsen]

rich enough dried deposits can be used as fire-aids.

There are places where they are the main source of fuel.

[cran]

There are places where they are the main source of fuel.

yes - that's why it occurred to me to mention it;
I also remember the odd cow-pat campfire on hiking trips in the country.

[jlhredshift]

yes - that's why it occurred to me to mention it;
I also remember the odd cow-pat campfire on hiking trips in the country.

And most probably in Beringia, for the crossing.

[cran]

And most probably in Beringia, for the crossing.

Could be, especially if following herd movements.

The alternatives at that time could have been collecting animal fats or oils, or some plant resins (where available), as fuel or fire-aids. Tapping (harvesting) peat is another seasonal option, but I believe it takes time to dry and prepare (and therefore tended to be associated with settlements). All of this, though - the Far North people - seems to be much later (therefore more advanced in tool use, etc) than the time under discussion here.

*But I wasn't in Beringia, for the crossing.

[jlhredshift]

Could be, especially if following herd movements.

The alternatives at that time could have been collecting animal fats or oils, or some plant resins (where available), as fuel or fire-aids. Tapping (harvesting) peat is another seasonal option, but I believe it takes time to dry and prepare (and therefore tended to be associated with settlements). All of this, though - the Far North people - seems to be much later (therefore more advanced in tool use, etc) than the time under discussion here.

*But I wasn't in Beringia, for the crossing.

van Geel et al. 2010

Mycological evidence of coprophagy from the feces of an Alaskan Late
Glacial mammoth

Abstract:

Dung from a mammoth was preserved under frozen conditions in Alaska. The mammoth lived during the
early part of the Late Glacial interstadial (ca 12,300 BP). Microfossils, macroremains and ancient DNA
from the dung were studied and the chemical composition was determined to reconstruct both the
paleoenvironment and paleobiology of this mammoth. Pollen spectra are dominated by Poaceae, Artemisia
and other light-demanding taxa, indicating an open, treeless landscape (‘mammoth steppe’). Fruits
and seeds support this conclusion. The dung consists mainly of cyperaceous stems and leaves, with
a minor component of vegetative remains of Poaceae. Analyses of fragments of the plastid rbcL gene and
trnL intron and nrITS1 region, amplified from DNA extracted from the dung, supplemented the microscopic
identifications. Many fruit bodies with ascospores of the coprophilous fungus Podospora conica
were found inside the dung ball, indicating that the mammoth had eaten dung. The absence of bile acids
points to mammoth dung. This is the second time that evidence for coprophagy of mammoths has been
derived from the presence of fruit bodies of coprophilous fungi in frozen dung. Coprophagy might well
have been a common habit of mammoths. Therefore, we strongly recommend that particular attention
should be given to fungal remains in future fossil dung studies.

Well, this at least proves that dung was available.

[cran]

van Geel et al. 2010

Well, this at least proves that dung was available.

I think this is an important contribution to your own discussion, John.

My understanding is that this prehistoric diets discussion setting is one or two million years earlier;
ie, first modern humans on Earth, rather than first modern humans on the American continent.
The challenges to survival and the depth of culture (particularly in toolmaking and use)
might be expected to be quite different between the two settings.

Of course, with the OPs recent shift to questions about modern environmental degradation and sustainability,
who knows what is or isn't on-topic anymore?

[wd40]

To sustain herbivorous brontosaur dinosaurs etc, the topsoil of 50 million+ years ago must have been much more potent, nutritious and conducive to giant fast-gowing flora to feed and sustain these herds of giants for aeons, who must have each consumed tons per day.
If early inland humans were non-meat eating pre-agricultural gatherers, the topsoil even 250,000 years ago, even without fertilisers, had to have been still pretty potent to provide their 2000 daily calories. Maybe there was then some trace element in the soil which has since gone missing or been depleted.

[Strange]

To sustain herbivorous brontosaur dinosaurs etc, the topsoil of 50 million+ years ago must have been much more potent, nutritious and conducive to giant fast-gowing flora to feed and sustain these herds of giants for aeons, who must have each consumed tons per day.

Any evidence or figures to back up that claim? What were the population levels of the herbivorous dinosaurs? What proportion of the land was covered with plants?

If early inland humans were non-meat eating pre-agricultural gatherers, the topsoil even 250,000 years ago, even without fertilisers, had to have been still pretty potent to provide their 2000 daily calories.

Why? There are plenty of people who still live like that today.

Maybe there was then some trace element in the soil which has since gone missing or been depleted.

Or maybe not.

[Hornblower]

To sustain herbivorous brontosaur dinosaurs etc, the topsoil of 50 million+ years ago must have been much more potent, nutritious and conducive to giant fast-gowing flora to feed and sustain these herds of giants for aeons, who must have each consumed tons per day.
If early inland humans were non-meat eating pre-agricultural gatherers, the topsoil even 250,000 years ago, even without fertilisers, had to have been still pretty potent to provide their 2000 daily calories. Maybe there was then some trace element in the soil which has since gone missing or been depleted.

The topsoil in Africa going into the 20th century supported enough vegetation for over a million elephants. How many large sauropods do you think there were at their peak in ancient times, and why?

[HenrikOlsen]

To sustain herbivorous brontosaur dinosaurs etc, the topsoil of 50 million+ years ago must have been much more potent, nutritious and conducive to giant fast-gowing flora to feed and sustain these herds of giants for aeons, who must have each consumed tons per day.

Not really, they were fertilized continuously by the dung of giants.

You don't seem to get that there's a cycle going on. Plans takes nutrients from ground, dinosaur eats plant, dinosaur takes a dump, returns nutrients to the ground, plant grows. On death dino rots (or gets eaten), returning the leftover nutrients to the ground.

Topsoil depletion as mentioned in the article you linked to is caused by agriculture where the plants are taken somewhere else to be eaten, by people who takes dumps somewhere else, so the nutrients are not returned. Plus practices that lead to erosion and such.
It's utterly irrelevant for dinosaurs.

[Strange]

people who talks dumps somewhere else

BAUT?

[HenrikOlsen]

Fixed

[cran]

If the giant herbivores lived on "giant fast-gowing [sic] flora", then they would have hung around the Mesozoic equivalent of rainforests. Apart from those found in volcanically active areas, rainforest plants are not really sustained by the soil, but by the accumulated humus (rotted plant and animal detritus) lying on top of the soil - as mentioned already, naturally recycled wastes.

[HenrikOlsen]

Oh, and remember that the herds will only grow as numerous as the plant's can sustain. Feedback's a wonderful thing.

[wd40]

After composting from raw feces down to manure, 'humanure' seems to be safe.

On the other hand, as someone comments here on the "Deadly Cucumber" outbreak http://news.sky.com/skynews/Home/UK-...ick_In_Germany

"This outbreak is no surprise. I have a home in Murcia and have made many complaints to the relevant authorities both verbally and in writing regarding the spraying of untreated animal and human effluence on the local crops. The apathy is unbelievable. We never purchase local vegetables and prefer to use tinned. This is the main reason that we are leaving Spain after having owned a property for over four years. Sadly, our property has been an ideal location for witnessing really dangerous practices."

[Gillianren]

You'll note the word "untreated" in that complaint, surely?

Are you planning to actually respond to anything anyone else has said to you?

[captain swoop]

Before the widespread us of the Water Closet the 'Night Soil' from the Earth Closets was collected and composted for fetilizer. My Grandad remembers the Night Soil wagon coming round once a week. They didn't get a WC until the 1930s.
From an rnvironmental point of view the Earth Closedt is far better than the WC. It uses no water and doesn't dump gallons of liquid waste that has to be treated before the water can be released.
Whole trains of waste 'Soil' used to leave London and othe big citied every night for the 'country'

Urine was always a valuable commodity as well. It was used in extracting ALum from the burned shale, fixing dye in the woolen industry and also in leather Tanning.
Harris Tweed was renowned for having a feint smell of wee and peat smoke when it was damp from the manufacturing process. In the House of lords it could get quite 'stinky' on a damp day apparently.

[Gillianren]

You could say that.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Stink

[HenrikOlsen]

Whole trains of waste 'Soil' used to leave London and othe big citied every night for the 'country'

On the other hand, this was the technology that was the basis of the calculation that no human city could grow beyond 1 million people, because the added dung from the horses driving the night wagons would require so many additional horses that the whole would just spiral out of control at about the million people mark, with all streets at the periphery choked to impassibility with carts driving manure of all sorts.

[captain swoop]

On the other hand, this was the technology that was the basis of the calculation that no human city could grow beyond 1 million people, because the added dung from the horses driving the night wagons would require so many additional horses that the whole would just spiral out of control at about the million people mark, with all streets at the periphery choked to impassibility with carts driving manure of all sorts.

Well, to give some idea in 1870 there were 71,903 taxed horses within 2 miles of Charring Cross. That is, horses used on Omnbuses and Cabs. to that can be added all the horses used to pull carts and wagons, private carriage horses, riding horses and Cavelry Horses (still a lot of them in London each producing 20 - 30 lb of poop a day it was pretty messy anyway. Plus, until the railways came along there were up to 14,000 Dairy Cows in London. Railways were the solution to your calculation.

[Trebuchet]

Before the widespread us of the Water Closet the 'Night Soil' from the Earth Closets was collected and composted for fetilizer.... .

I was in the US military stationed in rural South Korea in the early 1970's. The "night soil" was still collected there at that time. There was no composting, they just emptied the outhouses in the early spring and put it on the rice paddies. A few weeks later the fields were the most beautiful green color, and had the most awful odor. We were warned not to swim in the rivers. One of my colleagues ignored the warning. Typhoid is not a nice disease.

[HenrikOlsen]

Well, to give some idea in 1870 there were 71,903 taxed horses within 2 miles of Charring Cross. That is, horses used on Omnbuses and Cabs. to that can be added all the horses used to pull carts and wagons, private carriage horses, riding horses and Cavelry Horses (still a lot of them in London each producing 20 - 30 lb of poop a day it was pretty messy anyway. Plus, until the railways came along there were up to 14,000 Dairy Cows in London. Railways were the solution to your calculation.

Railways and working sewers.

I was in the US military stationed in rural South Korea in the early 1970's. The "night soil" was still collected there at that time. There was no composting, they just emptied the outhouses in the early spring and put it on the rice paddies. A few weeks later the fields were the most beautiful green color, and had the most awful odor. We were warned not to swim in the rivers. One of my colleagues ignored the warning. Typhoid is not a nice disease.

In London before the sewers were build it was cholera.

[captain swoop]

Horses in the Household Cavelry Mounted Regiment and Kings Troop Royal Horse Artillery still produce over 30 metric tonnes of manure a week from their stables in Hyde PArk, they have around 300 horses.

Horse Manure is very good for composting, it usualy comes mixed with plenty of straw from the stable and composts fairly quickly. My sister has 2 horses anda very good compost heap.

[Swift]

New research on hominid diets

From the New York Times

By studying the pits and scratches on fossilized teeth and analyzing the carbon isotopes on enamel, researchers have discovered new information about the diets of early hominids.

“The new data suggests our simple story, of harder and harder diets over time, is not accurate,” said Peter Ungar, a paleoanthropologist at the University of Arkansas, whose lab does microscopic analysis of dental wear.

The genus Australopithecus, which lived two million to four million years ago, shows a greater variation in diet over geographic region than over time, he said.