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Thread: Mars INDIRECT: Using Lunar Resources to Get to Mars Cheaper, Faster, Safer

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    Mars INDIRECT: Using Lunar Resources to Get to Mars Cheaper, Faster, Safer

    The topic is: If it were decided to go to Mars, what is the fastest, most cost-effective way, within a flat NASA budget? Since the vaunted 50-odd unmanned spacecraft doing all that exciting research suck up fully half the budget, and we need $2B USD per year to keep ISS flying into perpetuity, that means we have about $7B USD per year to work with--maybe $8B if we're lucky, and Congress is in a generous mood.

    Despite what Robert Zubrin of Mars Direct and offspring say, there is an alternative paradigm: the one recently sketched out over last few years in the series of ULA AIAA white papers, and the writings of Paul Spudis, Dennis Wingo, and others. The main idea of these papers is a general approach: (1) use depots to stockpile chemical energy in space; (2) emphasize commonality of the BLEO spacecraft inorder to minimize design and manufacturing costs, and to maximize reliability; (3) emphasize diversity of design for Earth-launch vehicles in order to drive competition to serve the large propellant market that a robust, ongoing BLEO program would represent; (4) emphasize reusable lunar SSTO's to get lunar-derived propellant into the game, and (5) the main design criterion is not minimization of mass and delta v--rather the goal is to minimize cost while maximizing capability. In other words, it's the original VSE as envisioned by President Bush: get up to the Moon, make me some propellant, and use that to get to Mars!

    It is a myth that the ULA affordable architecture paper is an argument against heavy lift: although it shows that an aggressive BLEO program can be done it 30 ton chunks, it also says that reasonably sized HLV's would "amplify" their proposed architecture (e.g., they just put out a 2010 paper arguing that ULA could develop a 70 ton HLV for about $3B USD). For a number of reasons, the current plan is to have Marshall Space Flight Center design and build a 70-ton SLS. Thus presumably, if this craft gets off the ground, and gets the flight rate high enough, in theory it could get launch costs to LEO down to about $3000 USD/kg.

    With launch costs down to $3000/kg, the "aggressive" option detailed in the ULA paper (3 crew flights and 2 20-ton cargo flights to the Moon per year) becomes feasible. (The "conservative" option they also reviewed--2 crew flights and 1 20-ton cargo flight per year--assumed about $10,000/kg). We'll take the $3000/kg figure as a starting point, but will also work out the implications of the conservative scenario.

    Now, a centerpiece of the new paradigm is the use of lunar-derived propellant to leverage our spaceflight capabilities; this is something that Dr. Spudis has been arguing for years, but it's something I and a few others here have only grokked in just the last few months.

    Let's start by thinking about what's basically required for a base to produce a few thousand tons of propellant annually. We'll work backwards:

    1) We'll start with 4,000 tons of propellant. Since propellant has a mixture mass ratio of 5 (i.e., 5 kg LO2 per 1 kg LH2), and water has a natural mixture ratio of 8 (16 protons and neutrons per 2 protons), then 8/5 * 4,000 = 6400 tons of water that must be cracked per year.

    2) Let's say the density of the ice is 0.9 gm/cc. That leaves the purity of the ice in the northern anomalous craters. I've seen at least one estimate as 90% pure, but the LCROSS results show that lunar volatiles are a veritable witches brew of various chemical species. I'm going to use my geologist's perogative and say that the polar deposits contain about 80% water. I say this because I suspect that at the LCROSS site, water preferentially sublimates sooner than most of the other observed species, and so the other species get concentrated relative to water. On the other hand, regolith density is going to be on the order of 2 gm/cc, so let's say the average density of the material is 1.1 gm/cc, which equals 1100 kg/m3. Thus we can expect to extract water at approximately the rate of 1100 * 80% = 880 kg/m3. 6400 mt/880 kg/m3 = 7272 m3 of material that must be excavated.

    3) The circular polarization radar that discovered the water deposits have a wavelength of about 14cm. This sets a minimum depth of the water deposits at about 2 meters, but it's probably a lot thicker. But for our purposes, lets assume it's 2m thick. Since we need 7272 m3 of material, then we need to excavate a pit that's 3636 m2. To put this into perspective, a 50m X 100m football field has an area of 5000 m2. In the USA, when bidding out excavation jobs, 150 m3 per hour is typical. Let's just say the excavation rate on the Moon with our underpowered equipment will be more like 72 m3 per hour. So to excavate 7272 m3, then it would take about 100 hours to get 'r done. 2 guys working 4 hour shifts would have to spend 25 days out of a year to do the required excavation. Don't like my 80% water estimate? OK fine: call it 40%: that means the guys will have to do 50 EVA's in one year to do the excavation.

    4) Thus the next question is how much earth moving equipment do we need to get 'r done. I would say 20 tons worth of earth moving equipment (i.e., one cargo flight) is enough; but if you think we need at least 40 tons, because we want a backhoe, a loader, a bulldozer, a dump truck, and probably a rock crusher with a conveyer, then OK fine. (Don't worry about the cold--we'll use nickel alloys that retain their strength and ductility down to cryogenic temperature, and we'll use sealed bearings filled with cryogenically rated grease to get around the dust--power will come from fuel cells. Caterpillar is already on it.) So we need 1 or 2 cargo flights to provide the requisite earth-moving equipment.

    That's enough for now. More to follow. Main point for now is to lay to rest the oft expressed intuition that "OMG! Thousands of tons of propellant! You must be crazy if you think that can be done at a 1st generation Moon base!" Simple numerical calculations show that it ain't an Anaconda copper mine on the Moon that we need. The required "mine" is more like the local mom 'n' pop gravel pit that they work on the weekends for extra money.

    Next Post: Processing Requirements
    Last edited by Warren Platts; 2010-Oct-31 at 05:49 PM.

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    1) You cite a mass ratio of 1/5 for H2/O2. I remember it being closer to 1/8 but I may be wrong (also, different engines like different mixes). With either ratio, you have to address the question of why bother going for the rarer, harder to get to lunar hydrogen when its a small portion of your mass budget? Why not get the Oxygen from the moon and launch the hydrogen from Earth?

    2) Can't really comment on your conclusion, seeing as the numbers you are using are made up. Can't really fault you for that though, given how little the region in question has been explored.

    3) You think people can work fully half as fast in the Lunar environment as they do on Earth? I've heard astronauts recount quite complex and lengthy adventures in Screwing Things In that would suggest you are being a touch optimistic here. You don't even know if working on a cryogenic part of the Lunar surface will be half as productive as EVA in Earth orbit, let alone working on Earth. I have the feeling you've got a kind of 'Armageddon' image in your mind in here of just putting blue collar workers in space suits.

    Let me put it this way: What if your experimental, shaken during launch, cryogenic temperature and vacuum ready excavation gear, breaks? You are comparing a highly developed commercial industry with operating speculative technology in an incredibly harsh environment where replacing anything broken is time consuming and 9-figure expensive.

    4) Again, I'm not so sure you can handwave the equipment and environmental challenges this easily.

    The strength of Mars DIRECT style plans is that shooting stuff out of Earths gravity well using cryogenic upper stages is well understood technology. Setting up a mining operation on the moon is not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Damburger View Post
    1) You cite a mass ratio of 1/5 for H2/O2. I remember it being closer to 1/8 but I may be wrong (also, different engines like different mixes). With either ratio, you have to address the question of why bother going for the rarer, harder to get to lunar hydrogen when its a small portion of your mass budget? Why not get the Oxygen from the moon and launch the hydrogen from Earth?
    Water's abundant at the poles:
    http://www.nasa.gov/mission_pages/Mi..._deposits.html

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    Thanks for the links and calculations.
    Perhaps I'm irony impaired but were you being critical here:

    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    The topic is: If it were decided to go to Mars, what is the fastest, most cost-effective way, within a flat NASA budget? Since the vaunted 50-odd unmanned spacecraft doing all that exciting research suck up fully half the budget,...
    Bob Clark

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    Why do we need yet another lunar manufacturing thread. I think the existing ones have bet the horse to death already.

    Obviously reality and wishful thinking are clashing with each other.

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    HAHA very funny NEO.... At least now I know I didn't make a mistake in my math! Thanks!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    3) The circular polarization radar that discovered the water deposits have a wavelength of about 14cm. This sets a minimum depth of the water deposits at about 2 meters, but it's probably a lot thicker. But for our purposes, lets assume it's 2m thick. Since we need 7272 m3 of material, then we need to excavate a pit that's 3636 m2. To put this into perspective, a 50m X 100m football field has an area of 5000 m2. In the USA, when bidding out excavation jobs, 150 m3 per hour is typical. Let's just say the excavation rate on the Moon with our underpowered equipment will be more like 72 m3 per hour. So to excavate 7272 m3, then it would take about 100 hours to get 'r done. 2 guys working 4 hour shifts would have to spend 25 days out of a year to do the required excavation. Don't like my 80% water estimate? OK fine: call it 40%: that means the guys will have to do 50 EVA's in one year to do the excavation.
    Thanks for this. This also means that excavating at 7.2 m3/h (i.e. 1/20th of the terrestrial speed) would take 1000 hours, i.e. 42 days or 126 8-hour shift or 252 4-hour shifts per year. Or, in other words, the minimal performance is 20 m3/day or 0.8 m3/h, assuming 24/7 operation.

    Astrobotic recently got a NASA contract for demonstator of remotely controlled lunar excavator. I don't know what performance their contract specifies, but I don't think that 0.8 m3/h is far outside their capabilities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Thanks for this. This also means that excavating at 7.2 m3/h (i.e. 1/20th of the terrestrial speed) would take 1000 hours, i.e. 42 days or 126 8-hour shift or 252 4-hour shifts per year. Or, in other words, the minimal performance is 20 m3/day or 0.8 m3/h, assuming 24/7 operation.

    Astrobotic recently got a NASA contract for demonstator of remotely controlled lunar excavator. I don't know what performance their contract specifies, but I don't think that 0.8 m3/h is far outside their capabilities.
    Here's a link to a nice combo backhoe/loader. It's got a 0.76 m3 loader bucket (doesn't list the backhoe bucket volume). It weighs about 6.75 tons. I think it could do more than 0.8 m3/hr!

    http://www.cat.com/cda/layout?m=308395&x=7

  9. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Why do we need yet another lunar manufacturing thread. I think the existing ones have bet the horse to death already.

    Obviously reality and wishful thinking are clashing with each other.
    Thank you for saying what I was thinking.

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    Thanks for the substantive commentary... Always a pleasure!

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Thanks for this. This also means that excavating at 7.2 m3/h (i.e. 1/20th of the terrestrial speed) would take 1000 hours, i.e. 42 days or 126 8-hour shift or 252 4-hour shifts per year. Or, in other words, the minimal performance is 20 m3/day or 0.8 m3/h, assuming 24/7 operation.
    Astrobotic recently got a NASA contract for demonstator of remotely controlled lunar excavator. I don't know what performance their contract specifies, but I don't think that 0.8 m3/h is far outside their capabilities.
    The NASA college competition for automated lunar excavators, which were allowed to be operated remotely, required the robots to be able to excavate 10 kg in 15 minutes. The winner was able to excavate 21.6 kg of the simulated lunar regolith in the required time:

    MSU robot digs most "moon dirt," wins NASA contest at Kennedy Space Center
    May 28, 2010 -- By Evelyn Boswell, MSU News Service
    http://www.montana.edu/cpa/news/nwview.php?article=8551

    This corresponds to 86.4 kg per hour. The density of lunar regolith is a little less than 2 g/cm3, or 2,000 kg/m3. So about 20 of these little robots, which weigh about 60 kg, would be able to match your 0.8 m3/h requirement.

    Bob Clark

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Thanks for this. This also means that excavating at 7.2 m3/h (i.e. 1/20th of the terrestrial speed) would take 1000 hours, i.e. 42 days or 126 8-hour shift or 252 4-hour shifts per year. Or, in other words, the minimal performance is 20 m3/day or 0.8 m3/h, assuming 24/7 operation.
    Astrobotic recently got a NASA contract for demonstator of remotely controlled lunar excavator. I don't know what performance their contract specifies, but I don't think that 0.8 m3/h is far outside their capabilities.
    This page shows some images of their proposed robotic lunar excavator:

    Astrobotic designs excavator to recover lunar volatiles.
    Fri, 07/30/2010 - 20:07 — Astrobotic.
    http://www.googlelunarxprize.org/lun...unar-volatiles

    Bob Clark

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    Quote Originally Posted by RGClark View Post
    So about 20 of these little robots, which weigh about 60 kg, would be able to match your 0.8 m3/h requirement.

    Bob Clark
    That's neat, but swarms of little robots is probably not the way to go, because there will be other construction requirements, like roads and berms for landing areas. Like I said Caterpillar is already on it:

    Caterpillar’s experience in autonomous mining and construction machinery also will assist with learning how to “live off the land” using lunar resources. For example, polar ice deposits can be transformed into propellant to refuel spacecraft for their return to Earth, doubling their productivity. New NASA research shows that some of the polar ice (a mix of water, methane and other compounds) is covered by an insulating layer of dry soil that robotic excavators can remove to access the volatiles.

    “Caterpillar makes sustainable progress possible by enabling infrastructure development and resource utilization on every continent on Earth. It only makes sense we would be involved expanding our efforts to the 8th continent, the Moon,” said Reiners [Caterpillar Automation Systems Manager].
    (my emphasis)

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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    I think the existing ones have bet the horse to death already.
    Unfortunately for you, that horse stubbornly refuses to die. In fact, given that NASA has just given Astrobotic a $10M contract for demonstrating a working robotic excavator on the Moon in April 2013, I'd say that the horse is in excellent health.

    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    Thank you for saying what I was thinking.
    Frankly, I find your position self-contradictory. You seem to advocate Mars Direct which essentially bets the crew life on working ISRU. At the same time, you oppose a working demonstration of ISRU on the Moon. The problem is that the human crews on Mars will have to dig the Martian ice for water and fuel, and, unless you propose to give them shovels, they'll need working excavators and loaders.

    There are two good reasons for testing the equipment on the Moon first.

    The first one is distance. Up to 1'000kg equipment can be shipped to the test site on Atlas/Centaur for under $200M per flight (see the calculation here). No need for nonexistent HLVs costing billions. Launch on Monday, landing on Thursday, post-flight tests on Friday and start digging after the weekend. Compare that with waiting for 8 months to get Martian ISRU equipment to its destination. Teleoperation with 2.6 second lag may not be comfortable, but it's certainly possible, while teleoperation at the distance of Mars is not. Next: once the equipment breaks (and it will break, that's what the tests are for), the replacement requires another $200M and a couple of days. If a Martian ISRU installation breaks, you have to wait up to two years just to be launch the replacements, and then wait half a year for it to get to the destination. During this time there is of course no production, so the mission which was supposed to depend on that ISRU gets at minimum a 2-year delay.

    The second reason is that sound engineering principles require the equipment to be tested under worse then expected conditions. And we all know that the environmental conditions on Mars are basically a walk in the park compared to the Moon. That means that if you had the equipment working on the Moon for a year, you can ship it to Mars and be virtually sure that it will work without problems for years.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    For reference, Astrobotic's website lists the following companies are involved: ANSYS, Caterpilar, Lockheed Martin Space Systems, Aerojet, Scaled Composites, International Rectifier, Harmonic Drive LLC.

    I'd say that these guys are serious.

  16. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Frankly, I find your position self-contradictory. You seem to advocate Mars Direct which essentially bets the crew life on working ISRU.
    You demonstrate a catastrophic misunderstanding of the ISRU in the Mars Direct architecture - both in it's detail, and the strategy of its usage.

    It doesn't even launch people until their return vehicle has launched, cruised to Mars, landed and conducted all the required ISRU to bring that crew home again, all unmanned. So no - it does not bet 'the crew life' on working ISRU. It waits till it's landed, worked and finished its job before comitting a crew.


    At the same time, you oppose a working demonstration of ISRU on the Moon.
    No I have not. I oppose a huge ISS sized project ( for that is what it would be, at an optimistic end of the scale ) on a lunar fuel depot that is not needed and will not make trips to Mars faster, cheaper, safer or more frequent. I am a very very strong supporter of robotic exploration of the moon. I have, time and time again, called for robotic exploration of these polar deposits with sample return missions. Heck - if you want, use ISRU on a macro scale for sample return.

    The problem is that the human crews on Mars will have to dig the Martian ice for water and fuel, and, unless you propose to give them shovels, they'll need working excavators and loaders.
    Again - you don't 'get' the Mars Direct ISRU. It uses the CO2 atmosphere. It doesn't use the ice. It sucks in the atmosphere, and processes it with hydrogen taken from Earth, to produce methane and LOX. It doesn't use excavators. It doesn't use loaders. It doesn't use people.

    There are two good reasons for testing the equipment on the Moon first.
    It's totally totally utterly different equipment. It's no more suitable than suggesting we all go on a sailing holiday to test a new car. It's totally different. Moreover, at a bigger picture level, the requirements of spacecraft landing on and staying on the moon, and on mars, a totally different. The moon isn't a 'worse' version of Mars. It's totally different.

    Teleoperation with 2.6 second lag may not be comfortable, but it's certainly possible, while teleoperation at the distance of Mars is not.
    Which is why I return, yet again, to the point made by Steve Squyres. If you're going to go to the expense, trouble, cost and risk of putting humans in space - put them where they are most useful. That's not the Moon.

    You're arguing, at length, against Mars Direct - yet you clearly don't know the first damn thing about it!!!

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    Quote Originally Posted by djellison
    [A] lunar fuel depot ... is not needed and will not make trips to Mars faster, cheaper, safer or more frequent.
    This thread is going to break the problem down and take it step by step in order to show that your unsupported assertion is false.

    Can we at least get you to agree that to produce 4000 tons of propellant per year would require the excavation of 7,000 to 14,000 m3, and that 20 to 40 tons of earth moving equipment would suffice for the excavation process?

  18. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    Can we at least get you to agree that to produce 4000 tons of propellant per year would require the excavation of 7,000 to 14,000 m3, and that 20 to 40 tons of earth moving equipment would suffice for the excavation process?
    You're making assumptions about the quantity of ice there is per unit volume of regolith that are yet to be observed in situ. You're making assumptions regarding the physical characteristics of that material. You're making assumptions about the efficiency of the extraction process. You're making a very large number of entirely unsubstantiated assumptions.

    So - on that basis - do I agree with your statement - of course not - it would be naive and stupid to do so. We don't know the physical characteristics of the material in question, thus we can not guess as to how easy or hard it might be to move. If your slabs of ice exist, then they'll be as hard as solid rock and in that instance, a backhoe will NOT suffice, you'll probably have to resort to explosives or a form of electro-mechanical alternative to pneumatic jack-hammers. Moreover, we do not know exactly what changes will be required to the typical designs we know of for Backhoes etc to make them survive a launch and landing and work in the horrific thermal-vac conditions and the hideous nature of lunar dust.

    We're not talking about 'moving earth' here. Assuming we can do this job with 'earth moving' equipment is willfully misleading and dishonest Warren.
    Last edited by djellison; 2010-Nov-02 at 12:30 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    No. We don't know the physical characteristics of the material in question, thus we can not guess as to how easy or hard it might be to move. If your slabs of ice exist, then they'll be as hard as solid rock and in that instance, a backhoe will NOT suffice, you'll probably have to resort to explosives or a form of electro-mechanical alternative to pneumatics.

    We're not talking about 'moving earth' here. Assuming we can do this job with 'earth moving' equipment is willfully misleading and dishonest.
    At the Omya quarry near Pittsford, Vermont, they mine a high quality marble limestone that they grind up for use in toothpaste and many other products. It is as hard as rock because it is rock. The technique they use is known as "blast and clear": they blow the crap out of it with high explosives, and then they use--guess what--ordinary earth-moving equipment, i.e., backhoes and loaders and dump trucks to excavate the material. I know this to be true because my next door neighbor was one of the heavy equipment operators.

    Also, my question to you wasn't about how hard or how easy it would be to excavate lunar ice. The question was whether you agree that about 7000 to 14000 cubic meters of lunar ice would be sufficient to produce 4000 tons of rocket propellant.

  20. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    At the Omya quarry near Pittsford, Vermont,
    I've been to Vermont. It's not the moon.

    The question was whether you agree that about 7000 to 14000 cubic meters of lunar ice would be sufficient to produce 4000 tons of rocket propellant.
    Define 'lunar ice'. Are you presuming pure deposits? If you are, then you're making stuff up. We have not done in-situ measurements of such deposits to date.

    The most reliable figure we DO have (and I'm NOT stating this is the case for all of the moon, it's simply the most reliable figure we actually have) is the LCROSS 5.6 +/- 2.9% by by mass.

    That would therefore infer 70,000+ tons of stuff to find 4,000 tons of water.

    The real answer here is... WE DON'T KNOW WARREN. Stop pretending you do. Let's send robots and find out, shall we?

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    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    I've been to Vermont. It's not the moon.
    The beautiful thing about the universe is that it is an orderly place. The proper application of explosives can solve the same sorts of problems on the Moon as they can in Vermont.

    Define 'lunar ice'. Are you presuming pure deposits? If you are, then you're making stuff up. We have not done in-situ measurements of such deposits to date.

    The most reliable figure we DO have (and I'm NOT stating this is the case for all of the moon, it's simply the most reliable figure we actually have) is the LCROSS 5.6 +/- 2.9% by by mass.

    That would therefore infer 70,000+ tons of stuff to find 4,000 tons of water.

    The real answer here is... WE DON'T KNOW WARREN. Stop pretending you do. Let's send robots and find out, shall we?
    Doug, you know very well that we are discussing the northern, permashaded craters with the anomalously high circular polarization ratios--not the southern, low CPR crater they crashed the spent 3rd stage into for the LCROSS experiment. Therefore, for you to say that we would need to excavate 70000 tons of regolith to get 4000 tons of water because of LCROSS is deliberately misleading. You are as fully aware of as I am that these ice deposits have been described as "relatively pure" by the principle investigator of Chandrayaan, because I have linked to that information in direct response to your posts on multiple occasions.

    Here is a link to a picture and description of one, particular crater that is typical.

    Here is Dr. Spudis's explanation of the results:

    [T]he new “ice crater” image is mine — I am on the Mini-RF team. I was the PI on the Indian version of the radar (Mini-SAR) and am Deputy PI on the LRO version, Mini-RF.

    The image of the small crater is a radar image and the apparent offset of the floor is not real — it is an effect of the side-looking radar called layover. The crater is almost perfectly symmetrical, so there is no inferred projective direction.

    The high CPR you see on the left side of the crater also is not real, but is an artifact of “double-bounce reflections” from the crater floor to wall to sensor.

    The high CPR is confined to the crater interior, which is very cold (about 35 K) and mostly in permanent shadow. The low CPR around the rim (exclude the downrange artifacts) shows us that there is little or no surface roughness caused by rocks here. As craters degrade inside and outside at the same rates, this suggests that the high CPR inside is not caused by rockiness, but something else. Ice is our explanation.

    What we do not know (and cannot know from radar alone) is the physical nature of the ice. Solid crystalline blocks 20 times stronger than steel and fluffy aggregates of loose “snow” look the same to radar. Thus, I advocate sending a surface rover to examine the deposits and characterize it in detail. Once we have that information, we can decide on the best way to harvest the ice.(Paul Spudis, personal communication, July 12, 2010)

    Personally, I predict the ice is going to be quite dense. It will be millions of years old, probably, if not billions of years old. Therefore, it ice will have had plenty of time to settle. Also, the constant micrometeorite bombardment will cause instanteous, microscopic melting and refreezing that will further increase the density. Arguably, it could settle into a firn-like density in this scenario, in which case it would have a density of about 500 kg/m3. This would not materially affect my analysis above, except that it might be a little easier to harvest, than solid ice sheets.

    Worst case scenario is that it might have the density of dry, freshly fallen snow on Earth. In that case, we could expect the density of the "ice" to be about 80 kg/m3. In that case, we would have to excavate 8 "football fields" per year to a depth of 2 meters. Let's take it further, and assume that half of the "snow" is a mixture of CO2, CH4, and NH3. In that case, we'd have to excavate 16 "football fields", or a square 283 meters on a side. The upside in this scenario is that it would be a lot easier to harvest the ice. For example, the snow blowers they use at Denver International Airport are capable of removing 5,000 tons per hour!

    I agree that we should send in a robotic lander/rover to investigate the anomalous, northern, polar craters. However, the justification for doing this is precisely so we can get a better handle on how to harvest the water that's there so that we can produce thousands of tons of lunar rocket propellant per year. Honestly, Doug, I don't understand the hostility. We're trying to do you a favor here by figuring out a way to send humans to Mars in your lifetime so that you can die happy. We've already tried Mars Direct. It fell flat on its face with the death of Constellation and the Ares SHLV. It's time to investigate some alternative approaches.

    Do you have any other objections to the mining side of the operation before we move on to the production side?

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    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    Unfortunately for you, that horse stubbornly refuses to die. In fact, given that NASA has just given Astrobotic a $10M contract for demonstrating a working robotic excavator on the Moon in April 2013, I'd say that the horse is in excellent health.
    First; these articles always put out the pie-in-the-sky application, that doesn't mean it doesn't have intermediate benefits. The also don't directly link the excavator to fuel. They link excavator to material, and material to fuel, but don't say how to go from end to end.

    An excavator can have important scientific uses long before any kind of manufacturing. It's a loooong way from digging to having an entire manufacturing and supply plant.

  23. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post

    Here is Dr. Spudis's explanation of the results:
    ..Thus, I advocate sending a surface rover to examine the deposits and characterize it int detail. Once we have that information, we can decide on the best way to harvest the ice.(Paul Spudis, personal communication, July 12, 2010)[/indent][/indent]
    Your own hero right here is making the EXACT SAME ARGUMENT I AM.

    And yet you are already specifying an exploratory architecture based on assumptions on top of assumptions on top of assumptions.

    No further detailed discussion on this entire matter is worth having with you Warren. Your're writing a fiction novel based on one data point that MIGHT be a remote sensing observation of ice.

    Nothing more.

    I see no benefit to anyone in having this debate with you given the assumptions you continue to make and refuse to admit to making in your efforts to argue for a pointless unnecessary architecture that would sink tens, probably a hundred + billions dollars into a behemoth lunar gas station tha we DO. NOT. NEED.

    Next you'll make totally u founded assumptions about how to process the material, the density and physical characteristics of which you've already made assumptions about. Your gesticulated, arm waved backhoe, inappropriately and wrongly drawing direct specs from earth moving equipment will then deliver this uncharacterized material into your arm waved false guestimation of a processing plant. An catastrophically over simplified series of assumptions regarding habitation, life support, the ability of people to work in these situations, the number of flights required, the fragility of the EELV architecture, the refusal to concede that this is an engineering challenge at least on the scale of the ISS, and probably far far more challenging.... You will go on and on basically making up numbers, making up an architecture, making it all up....and come to an unrealistic time frame, unrealistic caperbilitieis at unrealistic costs and then, when everyone doesn't, in unison, shout 'Oh wow, you're right, let's start on this right away'....you'll snap back...

    'I don't know why you're not supporting this'.

    Because it's not real, Warren.

    You're never going to admit that, and I REALLY can think of better things to do with my time than, yet again, point out all the flaws in your assumptions when you simply refuse to listen..

    I'm done. I just hope some innocent bystander doesn't read your posts and confuse them with a realistic, serious discussion of a feasible, worthwhile architecture. Because they're not.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    Are you presuming pure deposits? If you are, then you're making stuff up. We have not done in-situ measurements of such deposits to date.
    We know that we have a radar return that is consistent with an ice sheet at least 2m thick. If there is no ice, that can mean only two things: (a) Spudis, his coworkers, and paper reviewers are all glaringly incompetent and did not find an obvious experimental error, or (b) there is some unknown exotic matter down there which produces such anomalous radar return. Both of these are possible, but the probability is very low (in fact I'd argue that (b) is more likely then (a)). So the ice sheet theory is on a firm enough grounds, at least for the purposes of speculating about excavation strategies on a message board. Of course we need to send some robots down there, but arguing that we cannot discuss a potential excavation strategy without in situ results is very short sighted. It's akin to arguing that we cannot discuss Mars Direct because the needed HLV does not physically exist at the moment or nobody has actually tried CO2 cracking on Mars.

    Quote Originally Posted by djellison View Post
    The most reliable figure we DO have (and I'm NOT stating this is the case for all of the moon, it's simply the most reliable figure we actually have) is the LCROSS 5.6 +/- 2.9% by by mass.
    As for the LCROSS, here is an interesting paper: http://www.lpi.usra.edu/meetings/lpsc2010/pdf/2075.pdf

    On October 9, 2009 the LCROSS spacecraft impacted Cabeus crater, located near the south pole of the Moon. Prior to that impact, the Mini-RF instrument on ISRO’s Chandrayaan-1 and NASA’s Lunar Reconnaissance Orbiter (LRO) obtained S-Band (12.6 cm) SAR images of the impact site at 150 and 30 m resolution, respectively. These observations show that Cabeus has a circular polarization ratio (CPR) comparable to or less than the lunar average. This is not consistent with the presence of thick deposits of water ice within a few meters of the lunar surface.
    Translation: the radar sees no sheet ice in Cabeus and Shackleton. LCROSS did not find ice at Cabeus (it found some strange brew), and KAGUYA has verified that there is no sheet ice in Shackleton. That's a good indication that this radar works correctly.

    Also, as for the LCROSS brew -- we have also learned that it is very soft, so it'd be actually much simpler to excavate then sheet ice (even if it contains less water). There's my post on the subject in the "feasibility" thread.

  25. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by kamaz View Post
    We know that we have a radar return that is consistent with an ice sheet at least 2m thick..
    But we still have not looked at it in situ - not even the smiplest scratch and sniff like Phoenix.

    Let's find out if it's actually there, let's sample it, let's find out its properties, let's find out its composition, the extent and depth of it..

    THEN, and ONLY then can proponents of lunar fuel supply have a serious discussion about if we can use, and if we can use it, how we can use it.

    But I maintain, again, it's a waste of time and money. There are cheaper and faster ways of getting around the solar system that don't involve Warren's pet project.

  26. #26
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    OK, so 1 or 2 cargo flights can most likely bring enough earth-moving/snow blowing equipment to handle the excavation necessary to produce 4,000 tons of rocket propellant. Now it's time to consider what other cargo flights are needed. I think that the following should probably suffice:

    processing plants
    solar power (1MW)
    hab modules

    Processing Plant: getting propellant from water ice is much easier than extracting oxygen from plain regolith. The old beneficiation process was energy intensive and time consuming. It involved heating up regolith to over 1000 degrees, and then blowing hydrogen gas over the regolith. The hydrogen would reduce some of the oxygen, producing water. So even after all this, the water still had to be cracked in a further step. Nevertheless, back in the day before the recent discoveries, this was considered to be the easiest option for ISRU propellant.

    According to NASA's "LUNOX" study--an architecture conceived in the 1990's, a cracker that weighed about 7.2 tons, would be capable of producing 24 tons of LO2 per year from regolith at 4% efficiency. This entails that it was capable of processing 600 tons of regolith per year (24/0.04). This mass would have included the water cracking and cryocooling capabilities as well as the beneficiation. Assuming production scales linearly with mass, then a 20 ton processor would be capable of processing 1667 tons of regolith. Then since beneficiation of regolith takes at least 4 times the energy and time required to process plain ice, and since the benefication process itself can be skipped, it doesn't seem unreasonable to bump up the production by a factor of 4 to obtain the 6667 tons of ice processing production. Assuming a mass ratio of 5 for your propellant, then the station should be able to produce 4167 tons of LH2/LO2 propellant, assuming it had enough power and feedstock.

    Of course, Doug or someone will point out there's a lot of other chemicals and dirt that must be filtered out, and so we'll also need a fractional distillation tower, a reverse osmosis unit, and maybe a centerfuge. OK fine: we'll add another cargo flight. Make it 3 if you insist.

    Now comes the pain:

    Let's consider the power. We will work backwards as before. To make 4000 tons of propellant requires cracking 6400 tons of water. The enthalpy of formation of water is 285 kJ/mol. Here is where I hope I made a mistake in my calculations:

    6,400,000,000 gm * 285,000 J mol-1 * 18 gm-1 mol = 1014 J

    That's a lot of energy. Assuming 50% efficiency of conversion of electrical energy into chemical energy, and considering that the Sun only shines half the time on the Moon, then the power requirement is as follows:

    2 x 1014 J yr-1 / 182.5 days/yr / 86,400 s/day = ~13 MW

    That is a lot of power. The question is how much mass will this require in terms of solar panels. We'll go with the recent NASA (2010) SBIR & STTR solicitation. The figure NASA is interested in is 200W/kg. Thus 1.3 x 107 W / 200 W/kg = 65 tons. So we'll try and squeeze the power requirements into 3 cargo flights.

    Finally, we need habitation for the crew. I figure one hab module would house 4 guys comfortably. Since we'll want a crew of at least 8 guys, then we need to cargo flights to bring in the hab modules. I figure the crew will do 8 month rotations. There will be three crew flights per year so that there's always some overlap in the crew rotation.

    What are the power requirements necessary to produce 4000 tons of rocket propellant annually? There is a wide range of figures given for the efficiency of water cracking, but 50% efficiency is on the conservative end.

    Now we can tote up the total number of cargo flights to set up the lunar propellant station:

    1-2 earth moving equipment
    1-3 processing equipment
    3 solar power arrays
    2 hab modules
    ----------------------------------------------
    6-10 total cargo flights

    Next installment: Cost

  27. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warren Platts View Post
    According to NASA's "LUNOX" study--...
    The HLLV would have been relatively inexpensive since it uses mostly off-the-shelf hardware from the Space Shuttle program...
    Just thought I'd quote it for a bit of light humor.

  28. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    An excavator can have important scientific uses long before any kind of manufacturing. It's a loooong way from digging to having an entire manufacturing and supply plant.
    I think you underestimate the importance of demonstrating a working excavator. The lunar mining threads I have participated in generally seem to revolve around two issues:

    1. Is the mining operation possible with current technology? That means: can one construct a working lunar excavator today?
    2. Would the operation be financially viable?


    You can claim that the horse has been beaten to death; I can claim that it is alive. The truth is that we both don't know how the horse is doing, because we don't know the answers to these questions. You can claim that the construction would break due to stress at low temperatures; Warren Platts can claim that he knows of nickel alloys that would withstand such conditions. In principle, the issue is currently unsolvable.

    However, if that Astrobotic excavator actually flies, the discussion changes. If they can demonstrate that they can actually dig the regolith, we will have the answer to the first question.

    If so, the issue would boil down to the potential business plan. Here, also, the demonstration will be invaluable. We will know that the mission cost was X, the excavator survived for Y days and managed to dig through Z kg of regolith per day. Using the real world data, machine designers would be also able to predict that a new version of excavator would cost X1, have the lifetime of Y1 and the processing efficiency of Z1. (Most likely, they would use these values to apply for funding for a new, bigger machine. But I digress.)

    Once we have the Xn, Yn, Zn values for n-th generation of the excavator, we can calculate what that excavator is good for. Scientific research, i.e. looking under the top layer of soil? Collecting regolith for covering the hab modules in a future lunar base? Mining lunar ice for local utilization? Mining ice for fuel? For export? Mining rare earths? He3? We can plug actual numbers into a spreadsheet and see how much money each venture could make (or loose).

    Without hard data the discussion is academic and should be treated as such. Warren Platts has produced a calculation based on some set of constraints. These constraints are based on the available selenophysical data, however scarce this data is. Without new data, his constraints related to the presence of ice sheets in the north polar region cannot be challenged. If that ice is there, his model could work. If it's not, it will either have to be modified or rejected. But as for today, that exercise is perfectly valid. Even though I have a differing opinion on some of these constraints (namely, I believe that processing speed is overly optimistic) I find this analysis very informative.

  29. #29
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    Quote Originally Posted by NEOWatcher View Post
    Just thought I'd quote it for a bit of light humor.
    Yeah, that's good for a chuckle. Let me add to that:

    A rough cost estimate for Mars Direct would be about $20 billion to develop all the required hardware.
    From Zubrin's The Case For Mars, page 3.

  30. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hop_David View Post
    A rough cost estimate for Mars Direct would be about $20 billion to develop all the required hardware.

    From Zubrin's The Case For Mars, page 3.
    I assume this is 1990 dollars (when Direct was conceived), so that works out to $33.5B in today's money.

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