What differentiates apple cider from juice?

[Lord Jubjub]

The U.S. government makes no legal distinction between the two words. But what would be your concept of such a separation?

[Strange]

Cider is alcoholic (over here, at least)

[tlbs101]

My concept based on actually having pressed cider with a cider press:

Cider is unfiltered, fresh pressed apple juice, pressed from whole (washed) apples. Being in such a raw state, it may be allowed to ferment, naturally, or be kept cold upon pressing to be more juice-like.

Juice is further refined, filtered, pasteurized, etc.

[kleindoofy]

Cider is alcoholic (over here, at least)

Without looking it up, I seem to remember that in the US the alcoholic version is called "hard cider." At least that's what we called it.

I would agree that in common usage in the US the fresh unfiltered juice is called cider, whereas the commercial product is called apple juice.

[captain swoop]

Cider is alcoholic. Cloudy apple juice is just cloudy apple juice.

[grant hutchison]

Yes, we've got another of those transAtlantic differences.
The Oxford English Dictionary leads off with the standard British English definition:

A beverage made from the juice of apples expressed and fermented. Formerly including fermented drinks prepared from some other fruits.

(I'm very partial to pear cider on a summer's evening.)

But in 2007 this additional entry appeared:

▸ N. Amer. A non-alcoholic beverage made from unfermented (and usually unfiltered) apple juice.

Grant Hutchison

[Lord Jubjub]

Does the British government make that their legal definition or is that simply a common usage?

[Gillianren]

Without looking it up, I seem to remember that in the US the alcoholic version is called "hard cider." At least that's what we called it.

Yes. "Hard," when it comes to beverages, appears a pretty standard term for "alcoholic," and the Online Etymology Dictionary dates "hard cider" to 1789.

I would agree that in common usage in the US the fresh unfiltered juice is called cider, whereas the commercial product is called apple juice.

That's a pretty good summary, though I'll note that you certainly can get commercial cider, though I'm hoping to get at least one jar from my best friend's grandmother's orchard this fall. Depends on how their crop was, probably.

[grant hutchison]

Does the British government make that their legal definition or is that simply a common usage?

This web page from the UK's National Association of Cidermakers summarizes the legal requirements that must be met in order to call something cider: it must contain more than 1.2% alcohol by volume (but less than 8.5%), and that must come from fermentation rather than the addition of alcohol.

Grant Hutchison

[a1call]

Yes, fermentation is a factor since we have apple cider vinegar but not ajv.

[Trebuchet]

I intentionally voted (other) before looking at the comments. I voted "other". To me cider may or may not contain alcohol. Apple juice does not.

[Jens]

As a similar example, beer is usually alcoholic but root beer isn't, at least in the US. Nor is ginger ale. So words like that aren't always defined scientifically.

[Atraveller]

I used to buy Fresh pressed Apple juice from the farmer with an orchard near my place. I would add some wine yeast and nutrient, and would end up with Apple Cider (8% by vol) in 5 days. If I waited 7 days it would be apple wine (10-12%)

Now, we have turbo yeast ( 18%) so we can go direct to a form of applejack without distillation - or can bump it up to 80% (rotgut) using the standard 5lt still available at most brewcraft stores here... (did I mention this is paradise?)

[Jens]

Now, we have turbo yeast ( 18%) so we can go direct to a form of applejack without distillation - or can bump it up to 80% (rotgut) using the standard 5lt still available at most brewcraft stores here... (did I mention this is paradise?)

That sounds pretty cool. Just out of curiosity, is a 5lt a kind of still? And also, what is "rotgut"?

[Atraveller]

That sounds pretty cool. Just out of curiosity, is a 5lt a kind of still? And also, what is "rotgut"?

5lt is the capacity - 5 litres. The largest legal still available at brewcraft stores in Australia. Standard reflux still will yeild about 80% alcohol by volume (there is also a "super-reflux" which will get you up to 85%.)

"Rotgut" is the generic name given to overproof spirits. Based, I think, on what it will do to your stomach lining if not diluted.

[Gillianren]

Indeed. When I was studying the American South in a class in college, we also referred to the alleged propensity of moonshine to make you go blind.

Interestingly, I have a children's book with an explanation of how to make applejack. Washington doesn't get cold enough long enough to do it as described in the book, which is set in Vermont. In the book, you just leave a keg of hard cider out over the winter, and the unfrozen part in the middle, when you chip away the ice after a few weeks, is applejack. Home distilling at its finest!

[a1call]

It's no allegation. Wood alcohol is poisonous(not that regular one isn't). If the grapes are not properly cleaned of stems you could get blind if not worst.

[Jens]

Indeed. When I was studying the American South in a class in college, we also referred to the alleged propensity of moonshine to make you go blind.

I'm not an expert my any means, but I think that is mostly a myth. I think that blindness is typically caused by methyl alcohol, which isn't created in a very large quantity in either regular alcohol or moonshine. The problem is, it's added to industrial alcohol (specifically to make it toxic), so a person who tries to get drunk from the alcohol they have in hospitals (rubbing alcohol, etc?) may go blind.

[HenrikOlsen]

It's no allegation. Wood alcohol is poisonous(not that regular one isn't). If the grapes are not properly cleaned of stems you could get blind if not worst.

Wood alcohol isn't produced by fermenting wood, though it's easy to see how that misconception started.
It's named as it is because it's an alcohol produced through pyrolysis of wood.

The thing about turning blind is that it can be possible when distilling the alcohol, if the still is producing directly into bottles, to have what little methyl alcohol was there concentrated into the first few bottles. This don't happen when the distilling happens to a tank, and where temperature control is such that it's removed without being collected.

[Atraveller]

Indeed. When I was studying the American South in a class in college, we also referred to the alleged propensity of moonshine to make you go blind.

Interestingly, I have a children's book with an explanation of how to make applejack.

Interesting Children's books you have there!!! Freeze distillation was one of the most common in the early American Colonies. And thank you Johnny Appleseed for making Applejack the drink of choice in the early 1800's...

Getting wood alcohol from modern stills using modern GM yeasts (which can tollerate extremely high alcohol levels, and extreme high and low temperatures) is impossible. They are designed not to produce any.

The old saw about going blind from moonshine may have come from using wild yeasts.

[Jens]

The old saw about going blind from moonshine may have come from using wild yeasts.

I think it's really more likely to come from the dangerous practice of mixing industrial alcohol into alcohol for consumption. In Wikipedia it says:

Although methanol is not produced in toxic amounts by fermentation of sugars from grain starches, contamination is still possible by unscrupulous distillers using cheap methanol to increase the apparent strength of the product.

I occasionally read about incidents like that in places like India.

[Atraveller]

I think it's really more likely to come from the dangerous practice of mixing industrial alcohol into alcohol for consumption. In Wikipedia it says:



I occasionally read about incidents like that in places like India.

All the more reason to make your own. (Not to mention the cost of home made is 1/10 to 1/100th the cost of store bought...)

[AndreasJ]

I was going to say "cider is alcoholic", but non-alcoholic "cider" is actually pretty common here. (Cider without qualification would be assumed to be alcoholic however.) Not sure how exactly it differs from apple juice (which term is happily applied to fresh stuff here), but it tastes quite a bit different (and much worse, IMNSHO).

[Jens]

(and much worse, IMNSHO).

I'm not sure, but it may be that juice usually has sugar added, whereas cider generally doesn't. That may be why you find it tastier. Or maybe it's just the fact that juice usually has pulp removed.

[Strange]

I'm not an expert my any means, but I think that is mostly a myth. I think that blindness is typically caused by methyl alcohol, which isn't created in a very large quantity in either regular alcohol or moonshine. The problem is, it's added to industrial alcohol (specifically to make it toxic), so a person who tries to get drunk from the alcohol they have in hospitals (rubbing alcohol, etc?) may go blind.

I'm not sure this is an altogether unbiased source but it is the first I came across that sounds OK:

Will home-distilled alcohol make me go blind ? Not if you're carefull. This pervasive question is due to moonshine lore, which abounds with myths of blindness, but few actual documented cases. The concern is due to the presence of methanol (wood alcohol), an optic nerve poison, which can be present in small amounts when fermenting grains or fruits high in pectin. This methanol comes off first from the still, so it is easily segregated and discarded. A simple rule of thumb for this is to throw away the first 50 mL (reflux still) you collect (per 20 L mash used), or 100-200 mL from a pot still.

BTW: I seem to remember that the word "cider" in Japan is used to refer to something indistinguishable from any other tasteless fizzy pop.

[AndreasJ]

I'm not sure, but it may be that juice usually has sugar added, whereas cider generally doesn't. That may be why you find it tastier. Or maybe it's just the fact that juice usually has pulp removed.

Perhaps. If apple juice is like orange juice in this regard, it usually isn't sweetened here*, but I don't actually know. It may also be that the stuff's fermented with the alcohol subsequently removed - that's what you have to do to sell something as "non-alcoholic wine" here, and wouldn't surprise me if analogous regulations apply to cider. The cider I'm familiar with doesn't contain appreciable amounts of pulp.

* Inspired by an online discussion of obesity and its causes this spring, I checked what percentage of orange juice brands at my (then) local supermarket had sugar or other sweeteners added. Turned out that none did, which rather surprised me.

[Jens]

BTW: I seem to remember that the word "cider" in Japan is used to refer to something indistinguishable from any other tasteless fizzy pop.

Not exactly, but there's a kind of soda called Mitsuya Cider, and I suppose a lot of people would associate it with cider, so maybe lots of children think that's what cider is. But I think most adults are aware that there is a kind of apple juice called "cider" which is different from Mitsuya Cider. In the same way that most Americans realize that root beer is something different from actual beer.

[AndreasJ]

After a little research it turns out that fermentation is a legal requirement for something to be sold as "cider" in Sweden (but it's seemingly OK to remove the alcohol afterwards and still call it cider). A lot of the stuff popularly known as "non-alcoholic cider" isn't fermented and therefore is sold under labels like "apple drink of cider-like character".

[Extravoice]

Has the good Lord JubJub been reading the Straight Dope lately?

(It's an old article, but was recently reposted on the website.)

[Strange]

A few random thoughts...

The etymology of "cider" refers to "strong drink": http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=cider (though I usually argue that etymology is rarely a useful guide to meaning)

There are specific apples used for make (proper) cider that are not really edible.

I wonder if the use of cider for a non-alcoholic drink has anything to do with the Pilgrim Fathers not drinking alcohol? Hence, also, root beer (which, I think, is an American invention?). Although we do have ginger beer over here, which is not (usually) alcoholic. Although it is fermented. Hmm...