Order of Kilopi
The ideas around some sort of prime directive, are about non-interference and natural development.
But surely this presupposes the definition of natural development, as only applying to the bubble of that planet.
What is natural?
If the Klingons wanted to blow up a planet that would be natural too, in the larger picture, would it not?
So if any aliens are reading this: it would be completely natural, and indead healthier if you made contact. To not do so would be the un-natural decision.
Banned
No. Its idealistic. Unrealistic. Naive, and complete fiction. We can not count on ethics....
Look at our history.. We can not be trusted. If we judge aliens as us.. we are doomed.
Order of Kilopi
Star Trek TNG actually had an episode where they argued about that very question, but I can;t remember which one. (Besides, they violated the Directive on all the ST series more times than they kept to it... it seems every situation they encountered was a "special circumstance".)
STARGAZING: All I see are the lights of a billion places I'll never go. --Howard Tayler, Schlock Mercenary
Order of Kilopi
I've often thought that about the Prime Directive. There's a perverse arrogance to it, as if Starfleet regard themselves as above the affairs of the universe - like someone refusing to intervene when an old lady is being mugged, and justifying himself with some nonsense about free will.
I can understand people finding Star Trek entertaining, but it irritates me a little when fans go on about it being deep and thought-provoking. It's not exactly Ursula LeGuin.
Established Member
Originally Posted by Paul Beardsley
Agreed, I can not see how we are able to project 20th century morals into an area so far removed from reality. We don't have the any inkling of what ET-intelligence might or might not be---it is might be fodder for speculation but little else.
As for not attempting to understanding life beyond the confines of our planet---that would be a grave mistake, also.---IMO
Frog march,
What exactly are you attempting to convey with your question, ---if you are meaning to imply that we should not interfere with a "so-called" life form-- let us say with Martian microbes
It may be too late-- . . . --otherwise please clarify your post---if not-- I apologize for any mistaken misinterpretation of your post!
John
Last edited by John Jaksich; 2010-Aug-13 at 03:48 PM. Reason: clarification in bold
Order of Kilopi
only that the natural development of a planet is part of a greater natural development of the Universe, and that there is nothing un-natural about an intelligence making contact, and giving a planet warp drive, or whatever.
perhaps I'm not being very clear...
Established Member
I think I see what you are driving at---my own views--which are definitely speculation would be that ---it is much too soon to know if there is a "natural order" that you speak of---
But, I am ever hopeful for brighter days --than "humanity" seems to be experiencing . . .
Order of Kilopi
The Prime Directive has little to do with what is "natural" and everything to do with "non-intervention". The idea is that the Federation has found that even with the best of intentions, interfering with the affairs of less developed civilizations has had bad consequences. The Prime Directive is more about restraining idealistic starship captains than promoting any ideal. In fact, it is an example of favoring pragmatism over idealism.
Of course, if the Star Trek stories are any indication, the Prime Directive is actually violated all the time. To mixed effect, of course. So, I'd say that the Federation has ongoing experience that even with the best of intentions, interference has bad consequences.
Now, enforcement of the Prime Directive looks spotty, at best. Even though they often talk about the Prime Directive as an "ideal", it's in fact always treated as a matter of pragmatism. So, it makes sense that enforcement of the Prime Directive is also a matter of pragmatism. If it were treated as an ideal, then enforcement would be more stringent. But it seems that enforcement is only applied to whatever level is pragmatically required to achieve the desired effect. It's not necessary that Federation personel obey the Prime Directive with absolute scrupulousness. It seems good enough that they obey the Prime Directive to the extent that they don't pull the Federation into Vietnam style quagmires, perhaps.
So, as long as the Prime Directive is obeyed to a sufficient degree, it is successful in its de facto goals.
Established Member
The "Prime Directive" was more about the US coming to terms with its emerging role as a post WWII super-power, with the inevitable mixed results - A+ in Germany and Japan, F in some other places. Science fiction is often social commentary in one form or another. Dune had more to do with the 60's than anything in the future in a far away place.
Order of Kilopi
For much of human history, interference was not only tolerated but a duty, to bring the light of civilisation to the ignorant savages.
The Prime Directive, whether a good or bad idea, is as natural as Twinkies.
Order of Kilopi
It should have been called The Prime Suggestion.
Established Member
If you don't know the exact context (as is somewhat likely on an alien planet), things might turn out to be a little more ambiguous than that.
What if:
- the old lady actually stole sth. from the mugger and he is just trying to get it back
- it's just some silly game those aliens like to play
- it's actually not an old lady at all (who can tell with those aliens), and she's perfectly able to defend herself
- the mugger is some kind of alien Robin Hood
- the old lady is a terrorist
- the old lady is a spy
- the old lady is a drug dealer and the mugger the father of a young addict
- the mugger was set up
- you're on stage /in a movie set
- the old lady possesses some potentially life-saving secret or gadget
- during the alien Halloween festivities, young 'muggers' trick-or-treat old ladies
- in the alien culture, handbags are a ritual item and have to be stolen as a show of respect (similar to a lady dropping a handkerchief for some gentleman to pick it up)
And that's just one old lady being mugged.
Imagine the ambiguities and likely misinterpretations when dealing with an entire alien civilization...
Order of Kilopi
Oh, granted there's room for misinterpretation, and one could argue for a Prime Directive that states, "Don't intervene until you understand what's going on!"
In Star Trek, though, it wasn't about ambiguity. Indeed, the aliens were generally humans with a bit of plastic glued to their faces.
The idea of ignoring an old lady who is being mugged was an analogy - I wasn't talking about an actual old lady on an alien planet.What if:
- the old lady actually stole sth. from the mugger and he is just trying to get it back [etc]
But I think you realise that, and you are extending the analogy to explore the idea. Which is quite fun.
Perhaps this is a tradition that continues relentlessly despite the fact that the old ladies really, really wish it would stop. Not unlike sati or "female circumcision".- in the alien culture, handbags are a ritual item and have to be stolen as a show of respect (similar to a lady dropping a handkerchief for some gentleman to pick it up)
All superficially explored (at best) in Star Trek...Imagine the ambiguities and likely misinterpretations when dealing with an entire alien civilization...
I've already mentioned LeGuin. I wasn't that keen on The Left Hand of Darkness, but aspects of the Gethenian culture were arresting. Sibling marriages are outlawed, but it's okay to have a child by your sibling. When the King plants a ceremonial tree, he doesn't do a token dig with a trowel, he does the full gardening task. It's so cold that cutlery includes an item for breaking the ice that forms on your drink. You change sex according to the time of year and according to whom you are with.
This was a world that wanted to join the equivalent of Star Fleet.
Established Member
Is it natural? I dunno...I saw enough nature documentaries growing up that showed all sorts of wild animals dying in all sorts of horrible ways, and one time in a thousand the filmmakers would intervene. Outside of the context of having a similar superior situation over a known ETI, is it even possible to predict what we would or should do?
Established Member
I thought so, too
A little anecdote: Where I grew up, there is a tradition during the yearly Carnival, where women are supposed to cut off men's neckties. Of course, the local menfolk know this and prepare by not wearing their favorite and most expensive piece on that day. Even so, many pretend to try and resist, before "being overcome" by several women combining forces (more often than not, they are rewarded by a drink and/or a kiss after being "mugged" in this way).
There is always the odd foreigner, however, caught by surprise and fiercely defending his necktie.
Member
There's a difference though. In those documentaries often they are being eaten up by other animals. There's no reason to deprive an animal of its food.
If the universe is full of aliens then they'll be as diverse as the universe is large. You'll have aliens anywhere from highly moral and peaceful to highly munipulative to highly distructive. There's no reason to believe there isn't an alien race out there that would hunt humans for pleasure or blow up planets full of species for fun. Evolution is random in that sense, you just dont know what trait will become dominated in a gene pool. A lot of our "values" come from being sexual beings. If we were asexual and had thousands of offsprings (laid eggs?) then we wouldn't need a lot of family and socialization overhead.
Order of Kilopi
In one documentary, they just watched as a bunch of hyena pups starved to death after their mother had died.
Meanwhile, Jim and Jamie Dutcher put to sleep the female alpha of a wolf pack, because she was acting borderline insane and was injuring wolves in the pack.
I think there's room for ambiguity there, too.
Member
The practical solution to the problem of whether or not a given planetary culture should be contacted (interfered with) by an interstellar spacefaring race might be nuanced. Suppose they had the patience to have the contact occur gradually over a very long span of time, with considerable, but declining, ambiguity maintained about their existence for much of that time? The possible damage to the planetary culture, due to too rapid changes, too sudden realizations, and the like might be avoided. Ross 54
Order of Kilopi
It is immoral to deny the benefits of science and technology to any people or species. The prime directive is nothing but a rather stupid fictional principle.
Order of Kilopi
That's rather simplifying the issue, though. In the long stretch of history for the human species, an advanced civilization coming into direct contact with a less advanced civilization has led to more problems for the less advanced civilization than benefits. I suppose in the long-term, Native Americans got to enjoy some benefits, but....
Of course, you could argue that we're "beyond" that, but are we really? I'm not sure I would want to test that, especially when you're relying on the good will of billions of other people, some of which lack empathy or a good sense of ethics. Tack onto that the fact that if an alien species truly is alien enough, "empathy" may never become a question at all.
Historically, great harm has been done to civilizations under the justification of "helping" them. At the risk of bringing a taboo subject into this (which I do because I feel it's highly relevant), just think about all the conversions that could be had...
Order of Kilopi
what sort of conversions?
It would be good if aliens could make contact with us, and show us a completely documented history of Earth; that would be a shock to some people, like creationists.....maybe that's the sort of thing you mean?
Member
Imagining that extraterrestrials would would be interested in converting us to their spiritual practices may be making them too like humans. I tend to think it likely that intelligence will be comprehensible in some manner, no matter how embodied, but such a close cultural similarity is perhaps unlikely. Such tendencies are not even universal among human spiritual practices. Ross
Insert awesome title here
Let's look at some good examples of the all-knowing Prime Directive in action.
'Time and Again' [VOY]
Voyager encounters a planet just scorched by a power distribution accident. The scorching was so severe even space time took a beating and while on the away mission, Paris and Janeway are transporting back in time a day to before the accident took place. Janeway says that they can't warn the people on their impending doom because it would violate the Prime Directive.
Are we morally righteous now?
'Homeward' [TNG]
A planet with a Bronze age civilisation inhabiting it is about to shed its atmosphere. An anthropologist, Nikolai, wants to save at least one town but is overruled necause it would violate the Prime Directive.
Are we morally righteous now?
'The Circle' [DS9]
The Cardassians are secretly supporting an extremist led coup on Bajor. The Federation opts out of this on the grounds that an internal coup, even if externally supported and delivering this planet back into the hands of their former oppressors, would be covered by the Prime Directive.
Are we morally righteous now?
Established Member
I once read a story about alien visitors who took the chance to prevent World War II from breaking out.
When they came back a few decades later, the entire planet was scorched from a nuclear holocaust.
They had just achieved to postpone WWII and turn it nuclear...
Order of Kilopi
I was talking about the other way around. I thought it was pretty obvious that I was, given context.
I can bring up a wealth of historical examples of seeing new civilizations as a rich source of conversions.
Established Member
How dare you be so elitist, and so little read. In the record of human history, when a more advanced race encounted a less advanced one, in the light of
'civilisation', the less advanced one was destroyed, from the Conquistadors to the missionaries in the pacific, we destroyed what we did not understand.
The ignorent savages were not them, but us.
Nokton
Order of Kilopi
I don't think ravens_cry was condoning such behavior, but was explaining why the "Prime Directive" is not natural for human beings, while mocking the idea of trying to enlighten the primitive savages.
Personally, I think that it varies. You have to wonder if the alien species would see us (or if we would see the alien species) as animals/"less than human/Species of Choice" or as equals. We've had a history of not even seeing our own species as equals based on melanin levels in the skin or on geographical location or victory/defeat in a war (which was the justification for slavery much of the time), much less a race that's an actual different species. And our history with animals are... well... if they benefit us, we control them, if we can't control them and they don't benefit us enough, we kill them. When neither is economical, we just ignore them and erect defenses/walls and protect assets. Only recently have we really begun to think differently about this.
I think eliminating competition is a primary facet of evolution in any species (predatory or not). A mountain lion can't live long enough to reproduce and make more mountain lions, for instance, if the wolves are out-eating it. So the mountain lion will kill the wolves (and vice versa), as they're competitors. And believe me, the tales of how they do this... Jim and Jamie Dutcher recorded just such an attack. There's also tales of goslings trampling ducklings and drowning them while fighting over crusts of bread thrown at them.
The question is also, would aliens see us (and vice versa) as competition or a curiosity? Or perhaps a benefit -- trading ideas, for instance.
If we're not beneficial but not really competition, I don't think that aliens will really have any need to bother with us, outside of keeping an eye on our development just in case.
Order of Kilopi
ravens_cry is not arguing that it's a good thing; he's arguing that it's something that comes naturally to humans. The tone is clearly satirical.
Established Member
Or, all three attitudes may exist and compete (that's what tends to happen among earthlings)
Something similar happened with the Prime Directive in StarTrek: usually there were as many interpretations as interested parties.
Member
When I imagine Humans encountering an extraterrestrial species, I think whether we would see them as beneficial or competition would largely depend on irrational knee jerk factors, such as their appearance. We still have an instinctive fear of animals that appear predatory, I can't see that disappearing any time soon. So if they had rows of sharp teeth for example or some other such terrifying appearance we might just assume they are competition, so although we'd still maintain an interest in them, I suspect we'd metaphorically stand at a distance and prod them with a stick. Might our appearance alone determine how aliens see us?
Posting Permissions
Reply With Quote