J Riff Conspiracy Thread

[Jim]

... The controller must be someone that the victim trusts implicitly. Assume the persons Mother.
Now this person, or child, can be made to perform all kinds of activities, which they will not remember. ...

Whoa! Hold on. Full stop here.

You want to get someone (the "victim") to do something super-secret and super-dangerous, so you have that person controlled by... Mom?

And just how do you get Mom to betray her child? Have her Mom control her?

The word "preposterous" springs to mind.

[JayUtah]

How did sending up both the controller plus the controlee help matters?

Yeah, that's a puzzler. The typical Manchurian Candidate scenario gives the controller an alibi. The whole point of the proposition is that the operative acts alone and then has no memory of his actions, and the controller has an alibi. Ideally the controller would be seen conspicuously kicking back a few at Pancho's while this alleged flight took place. What's the point of sending up a stooge pilot with no memory of his suicide mission, if you also send up a skilled, fully cogent controller who might have second thoughts? If you fully trust the controller to keep his mouth shut, then just teach the controller to fly the plane.

[Donnie B.]

Perhaps "boxy" refers to the snub-nosed appearance of early jets that had the engine intake at the front of the fuselage, as opposed to later designs with needle noses.

Again, perhaps "assume the person's Mother" does not mean literally Mom, but rather someone who is as trusted as a mother -- more like Tonto to the Lone Ranger.

[JayUtah]

And just how do you get Mom to betray her child? Have her Mom control her?

The sleeper agent in The Manchurian Candidate was controlled by his mother, but the author successfully characterizes the mother as someone who would do just that. She's not the typical mother, nor is hers a typical family. Further, the operative in the novel isn't sent on suicide missions. It all makes sense in the narrow context of the novel, but it doesn't work as a general spy meme.

[CJSF]

(sighing morosely) I am going to have to look up this whole Manchurian Candidate thingy if I am going to understand any of this, aren't I?

CJSF

Edited after looking it up:
OK, great. It STILL makes no sense.

[Gillianren]

I'll tell you what doesn't make sense--not having heard of The Manchurian Candidate! (No, I haven't seen it yet. I'm almost through "K," though.) And practically anything which takes it seriously as possible, of course.

[captain swoop]

It has been filmed twice, the first one with Frank Sinatra is by far the best.

[CJSF]

I'd heard of it, just never really paid attention to what it was about.

CJSF

[JonClarke]

Of course we should note that propeller-driven, piston-engined aircraft were reaching altitudes well above 8 miles in the 1930s, for example the Vikers Vespa, Bristol 138 and Caproni 161.

By the late 1950s ground-based jet aircraft were pushing towards 16 miles. Air-launched rocket powqered aircraft were well past that by the early 50s

[JonClarke]

Perhaps "boxy" refers to the snub-nosed appearance of early jets that had the engine intake at the front of the fuselage, as opposed to later designs with needle noses.

Except of course most jet fighters of the 40s didn't, eg, Me 262, He 162, Meteor, Vampire, Attacker, Shooting Star, Banshee, Panther, Phantom, and S-21R. Only the Sabre, Thunderjet, MiG 9 and Mig 15 had a nose mounted intake.

[Tedward]

With reference to plonking Joe Bloggs itto a plane after showing them which way is up. I remember reading somewhere on the web about a Lightning pilot and a height attempt. Now what the height was does not matter I think but the skill of the pilot required to keep it close to the edge of its envelope. And to get it back when it goes outside this.

[Garrison]

Except of course most jet fighters of the 40s didn't, eg, Me 262, He 162, Meteor, Vampire, Attacker, Shooting Star, Banshee, Panther, Phantom, and S-21R. Only the Sabre, Thunderjet, MiG 9 and Mig 15 had a nose mounted intake.

The similarities of the latter having a lot to do with being based on the same German data. I agree with what JayUtah said earlier until we know what aircraft J Riff is talking about it's all academic, he might call something boxy and mean something different than what we have been talking about. I think the other big question is; what's the time frame for this mission? When might the USA have been desperate enough to conduct such a flight but not had a superior flight option, i.e. X-15, Mercury, either operational or imminent?

[JonClarke]

The similarities of the latter having a lot to do with being based on the same German data. I agree with what JayUtah said earlier until we know what aircraft J Riff is talking about it's all academic, he might call something boxy and mean something different than what we have been talking about. I think the other big question is; what's the time frame for this mission? When might the USA have been desperate enough to conduct such a flight but not had a superior flight option, i.e. X-15, Mercury, either operational or imminent?

I am not sure what "desperate enough" might mean in this context. High speed flight was already priority with various supersonic projects happening. The sound barrier was much more challenging than mere high altitude, and a number of test aircraft did break up approaching it.

My understanding is that the role of German data in the design of the MiG 15 has been over emphasised (usual Russophobic prejudices) and applied only to wind tunnel work on the highly swept wing. It is also my understanding that the reason so few early jets had a nose intake, despite this being logical for a single-engined plane, was the problem of airflow stability in long intakes and exhausts. Split intakes (e.g. Shooting star) high tails (MiG 9), twin tails (Vampire), two engines (Meteor) and split exhausts (Seahawk) were ways of working round this problem. Of course with the Thunderjet, MiG 15, Ouragan, etc. the problem was solved.

[pvicente]

Ok Swift. And thank you Jay, for being logical, that's how I'm trying to proceed. This next bit is just some groundwork.
In the MkUltra or similar programs, REM and other sleep states are, or were, crucial - allowing for a ' Manchurian Candidate ' syndrome, but of course not so dramatic. Rather, each 'victim' simply has a controller.
The controller must be someone that the victim trusts implicitly. Assume the persons Mother.
Now this person, or child, can be made to perform all kinds of activities, which they will not remember.
Certain persons are tailor-made for this. What shall we have them do ?
Assassinate the President in the movies, but in real life - Make a lot of money for someone else.
A large group can in fact leech off one such person, hundreds of people once it gets going.
This was called ' Belgian Disease ' pre-war. Post-war, it was honed to a much more refined state.
A good portion of the 'research' used to achieve this 'improvement' , was carried out by the Nazis, mostly in the death camps.
So that's the basics.

So, we have the space program of the 40s-50s. There are Jets attempting to reach outer space before there were rockets.
The logic went something like this : We have to try and get into space before the Russkies or whoever. But it is extremely dangerous to fly early jets up to 8 - 9 miles. EXTREMELY dangerous. Are we going to risk a full-blown Astronaut or professionally-trained air force/navy pilot on this mission ? Those people cost a million dollars to train, an absolute fortune in those days. No.
Enter the MkUltra victim and his controller.
One could learn to fly an early mig-like boxy jet in about two days. That's what happened.
Pretty simple. Take off and head straight up.
At about 8 miles, guess what happened ? The plane suddenly turned sideways at about 700 mph ( ? ) and the wing came off. Game over.
Nope. The two people fell 8 miles, but both survived, which was very surprising. The cold should have killed them both, but instead, the slight friction from the air, thin as it was, provided barely enough heat to stop instant death. This is what was learned, other than the fact that the jet could not operate at that altitude.
The older person, in fact the controller person in this case, suffered slight brain damage, and fairly severe frostbite. The younger person only sustained frostbite injury.
Some official pilot took full credit for this, and accrued the financial benefits, along with the increased stature, connections, social standing, better breaks all round for his family and children, and their children, to this day. The people who risked their lives were simply sent along to their next 'mission' .

It's very important to understand that this is one incident out of a hundred, the bulk of which would not intersect with the space program in any way. There are three or four more I can dredge up but it isn't the problem. The problem is the proof word.
I suppose I could start gathering thousands of photos, try to get retinal scans done, test DNA in other cases.... but remember I am tailor-made for this. I can't do it even if it were possible. And the people covering it are virtually bulletproof. There's no proof possible without a major involvement by the very people it would hurt the worst. It's set up that way.
Plus, I've been completely, professionally invalidated, before I even knew what was really going on.

If this is allowed to continue, next up is the Monkey who supposedly went into space.

P.S. I invariably feel physically ill after trying to talk about or even post on the net re: any of this.
But feeling a bit sick is minor compared to the anger and trouble that is still creates, every single day.

Ok, that's a nice story, but one that's hard to swallow with many strange details already mentioned by the other members.

Why do you believe in it? What makes it more credible than the average made-up tale flying around the internet?

If the plane was so easy to fly and you don't want to send a pilot (but why not? You have plenty of those coming out of training every year), why not call for volunteers from other branches and send a common soldier or sailor?

Why risk a secret agent trained and groomed by a top secret program, why would he be cheaper than your average pilot?

[R.A.F.]

So is J Riff going to return to his own thread?

[captain swoop]

Give him chance

[R.A.F.]

I'm just curious what type of aircraft he considers "boxy".

[JayUtah]

...

Why do you believe in it? What makes it more credible than the average made-up tale flying around the internet?

When I re-read his post #4 in this thread, I come away with the impression that he intends this story to be a firsthand account. "I've never done anything except try and talk about my own life. Did I ever do any work for the space program ? Yes. Is it recognized - no." He also says he could name names if he wanted to, but that if he did so it would "get ugly fast" so we're not going to "go there."

So if that suspicion is confirmed then it won't be so much a matter of his explaining why he believes in it, but of his having to defend a "firsthand" story that's so blatantly full of factual holes. After all, gullibility is reasonably forgivable. If it were just some story gleaned off the web, J Riff can see how a critical analysis handles it and move on. But dishonesty is less forgivable; alleging a firsthand story as true when it suffers so greatly from want of correctness puts one in a position that's difficult to defend.

If the plane was so easy to fly...

I'll punch the straw man again. Yes, we're waiting for J Riff to specify the aircraft type involved. But we can continue to eke reliable meaning out of what's already been posted.

Whether it's "boxy" is a matter of opinion that frankly doesn't interest me. When we know the aircraft type we can debate idly whether, in subjective judgment, it's "boxy."

It's described as an "early jet" that's "MiG-like." That narrows it down to certain design families, if not to some specific design. That it's allegedly easy to learn to fly "one of those" (emphasis added) suggests that it's a stock design, not an advanced prototype.

I still struggle with the notion that any such airframe would contribute materially to some sort of pre-rocket "space program" in terms of extreme altitudes. The implied nature of the test suggests a custom high-performance airframe and powerplant.

...why not call for volunteers from other branches and send a common soldier or sailor?

Yes that premise still bothers me. Test pilots are drawn from military pilots, preferably those with combat experience. The whole point of military aviation is to train your pilots to a high degree, then send them out to get shot at. And while training a pilot may cost "a million dollars," the plane itself costs 2-3 million dollars (in about 1960 dollars). So the pilot is not necessarily some extremely rare commodity that must be protected at great effort. Test pilots have more experience and skill than their peers, but not necessarily more training and hence not necessarily more invested expense.

Moreover there was a lot of competition to get into test pilot programs. It's not like you're going to run out of candidates. The notion that some mission had to be flow by untrained, inexperienced pilots in order to save the "good" ones for other missions just doesn't fit the facts.

[J Riff]

I can't even read one word of this thread, I'm sorry I might have to have to withdraw after this, too tense.
I 'woke up ' to all this in 1998 approx. At that time it was Serial Killers like Green River, Zodiac, a couple others... . altho I had already made some small noise about a dead rock star.
Then came heavy-duty hollywood crap, then horrifying family problems, as i appealed to them for help. I had forgotten about my mom, and was immediately attacked, using the police, as I described. Since, I've twice been further set up in the traditional fashion.
Big deal. Decades ago - Mr. C was thrown out the window, dead. So was Miss A. -maimed, because she had snapped and thrown the kid out a window - eye injury . Mr. G was shot in the back, dead, then my head was seriously dented - and never even taken to hospital. I 'fell off my bike ' according to mom. Dozens more incidents along these lines.
Mom is controller - perfect, optimum for the role. They signed for this..... in blood believe it or not, the idiots. Yet there's all this high-tech lab equipment around. Is this the mafia or the cia/govt ? Beats me, I think they traded back and forth often.
So I was insanely 'famous' whatever that is, and then I was removed and sat on. Since about ... 1964without ever realizing what was up. Perfect, tailor-made for it. I can explain that - it's not part of ultra. Where I was, it was much more violent than any controlled lab situation, it was full-on death, bang. Amazing amounts of blood, thrashing, executions. Not in America. All very numb like a concentration camp gets. One minute talking to someone, next minute into a room to be gassed or experimented on or worse.
Made a conscious decision to forget it all...around 5-6 ? No idea. DID forget it all. Was in the USA and OK > Forgot it all. Then again, and again, with expert help, made to forget names, places and everything else. Remember being 'conditioned' and them telling me over and over that no matter what happened I could not hurt H, I could not hit her, or attack her in any way.
Then they make money or just use you however they can. Handy. Writer, musician, whatever you like. Movie stunts. Pornography. Beautiful kidnapped white baby for sale. Tons, oceans more but that's enough.
This is fake - that's fake - but inside the game or play or whatever life actually is -things happen and they are covered. People are chosen to be sacrificed.
So when you see some guy going down the street yelling and breaking things like a lunatic, screaming involuntarily like he's being tortured, well maybe he is, that's what happened to me.
The space program is a light-hearted romp, I don't know what else to say, I can't do this, it makes me hyper-tense and sick to my stomach, because I've already written volumes about it and only get in worse trouble each time.

[captain swoop]

OK do I take it from this post you aren't answering questions or defending your original post?

[gwiz]

Test pilots have more experience and skill than their peers, but not necessarily more training and hence not necessarily more invested expense.

I'd take issue with you there, Jay. A test pilot does need training because test flying requires greater engineering knowledge than a pilot normally has. There are thus schools to teach test flying. In the UK it's the Empire Test Pilots School which used to be based across the airfield from where I worked. I believe there are several schools in the US, including the USAF one at Edwards AFB and the USNavy one at Pax River.

[Swift]

I have closed this thread (a consensus among multiple moderators).

J Riff, if at some point in the future you are prepared to fully discuss the space related conspiracy, please Report my Post and we will consider reopening it. I think much of the rest of your concerns are beyond the scope of BAUT.