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Thread: Walking on the moon

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    Walking on the moon

    I've searched for posts on this but the Search function didn't work.

    Looking at Apollo footage, I am wondering how anyone reconciles the astronauts' movement as being in 1/6 gravity. Taking an arbitrary body weight of 180lbs, and that the suit weighed 185lbs, this would give an astronaut a total weight of around 370lbs. In 1/6 g this would equate to around 60lbs.

    How high should a moon astronaut be able to jump? There is film of Apollo crews running and bouncing along but they get little vertical lift - nowhere near as much as one can very reasonably expect. In the late 1960s there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) speculating that a suited astronaut on the moon ought easily be able to make jumps of 4-6 ft with no great effort.

    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show, logic says that the astronauts would have made the most of low gravity and performed amazing jumps and physical feats. Yet there is no evidence of this. It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.

    I'd like to invite comments please.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show...
    Um, no.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    I've searched for posts on this but the Search function didn't work.

    Looking at Apollo footage, I am wondering how anyone reconciles the astronauts' movement as being in 1/6 gravity. Taking an arbitrary body weight of 180lbs, and that the suit weighed 185lbs, this would give an astronaut a total weight of around 370lbs. In 1/6 g this would equate to around 60lbs.

    How high should a moon astronaut be able to jump? There is film of Apollo crews running and bouncing along but they get little vertical lift - nowhere near as much as one can very reasonably expect. In the late 1960s there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) speculating that a suited astronaut on the moon ought easily be able to make jumps of 4-6 ft with no great effort.

    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show, logic says that the astronauts would have made the most of low gravity and performed amazing jumps and physical feats. Yet there is no evidence of this. It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.

    I'd like to invite comments please.
    and they did, just not enough for your expectations of what should have happened.

    Perhaps you should first outline your expectations

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    I've searched for posts on this but the Search function didn't work.
    Well, here's one thread:

    http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-...rong-jump.html

    about Armstrong's high ladder jump.

    There are some good reasons why they wouldn't often make big jumps - the suits were not the most flexible, jumps were potentially dangerous, and while the weight was less, the mass was not.

    It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    No, it really doesn't. Hand movements and so forth are often quite rapid.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    I've searched for posts on this but the Search function didn't work.
    Try the site specific google search.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    Actually when Apollo footage is sped up the movements of the astronauts look awkward and unnatural.

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    From the Apollo 11 de-briefing:

    10.26 WALKING
    ARMSTRONG Buzz did more in that area than I did. I would say that
    balance was not difficult; however, I did some fairly
    high jumps and found that there was a tendency to tip
    over backward on a high jump. One time I came close to
    falling and decided that was enough of that.
    Apollo astronauts didn't want to fall over backwards because they might damage their life-support system. Charlie Duke tried it and he did fall over backwards and it really scared him. From the ALSJ:
    In his book, Moonwalker, Charlie says "I decided to join in and made a big push off the moon, getting about four feet high. 'Wow!', I exclaimed. But as I straightened up, the weight of my backpack pulled me over backward. Now I was coming down on my back. I tried to correct myself but couldn't, and as my heart filled with fear I fell the four feet, hitting hard - right on my backpack. Panic! The thought that I'd die raced across my mind. It was the only time in our whole lunar stay that I had a real moment of panic and thought I had killed myself. The suit and backpack weren't designed to support a four-foot fall. Had the backpack broken or the suit split open, I would have lost my air. A rapid decompression, or as one friend calls it, a high-altitude hiss-out, and I would have been dead instantly. Fortunately, everything held together."
    John Young's "Big Navy Salute" doesn't look to me like it took place in Earth's gravity. How do you jump that high on Earth when you're in a spacesuit?
    Last edited by LaurelHS; 2010-Feb-12 at 05:32 PM. Reason: Typo.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    ...
    How high should a moon astronaut be able to jump?

    Considering all pertinent effects, or just weight?

    In the late 1960s there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references)...

    I'd be interested in those references. If you're going to play the science card, you need to have that card in your hand.

    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show...

    Begging the question. I don't agree with that assessment at all.

    ...logic says that the astronauts would have made the most of low gravity...

    No, logic says you're begging the question again. There are other factors to consider besides what the astronauts would "logically" have made the most of, in your humble opinion.

    Since the astronauts' center of gravity was displaced considerably rearward by the PLSS and their peripheral range of motion was hampered by the PGA and the associated flexion aids, they found that extreme gymnastics were not advisable.

    Yet there is no evidence of this.

    Actually there is, just not as much as conspiracy theorists say.

    Neil Armstrong, for example, jumped up to the third rung of the LM -- a height he estimated as about five feet. This is visible in the Apollo 11 telecast.

    It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.

    Nope. Experiments have shown that Earth footage slowed down doesn't look like the Apollo films at all. Of course none of the conspiracy theorists have done that experiment...

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    Yet there is no evidence of this. It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    Speaking of evidence, do you have any that the Apollo moon footage actually "looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down?"

    The film speed claims of hoax proponents have been utterly debunked, both on this site and elsewhere. The rapid arm movements of the astronauts relative to vertical movement is just one strike against you. Look up user JayUtah here on BAUT and visit his website.

    Edit: Never mind. He posted above me. See the "Clavius Moon Base" link in his sig.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    How high should a moon astronaut be able to jump? There is film of Apollo crews running and bouncing along but they get little vertical lift - nowhere near as much as one can very reasonably expect. In the late 1960s there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) speculating that a suited astronaut on the moon ought easily be able to make jumps of 4-6 ft with no great effort.
    The 1966 study
    "EXPLORATORY STUDY OF MAN'S SELF-LOCOMOTION CAPABILITIES WITH A SPACE SUIT IN LUNAR GRAVITY"
    By Spady and Krasnow seems to be the one to which you are referring.

    The study used a suit which was lighter and more flexible than the final Apollo suit and had no PLSS, and the 1/6g simulation was not ideal but it have a reasonable approximation.
    The test subjects in the study reported considerable balance problems while jumping in a pressurised suit. And that was without the additional mass of the PLSS and on a stable surface.

    The Apollo astronauts had a heavier less flexible suit with a heavy PLSS strapped to their back, along with a difficult surface and the chances of death if they damaged their suit.
    Given that I certainly would see them showing more than a little caution while jumping.

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    Quote Originally Posted by LaurelHS View Post
    From the Apollo 11 de-briefing:



    Apollo astronauts didn't want to fall over backwards because they might damage their life-support system. Charlie Duke tried it and he did fall over backwards and it really scared him. From the ALSJ:


    John Young's "Big Navy Salute" doesn't look to me like it took place in Earth's gravity. How do you jump that high on Earth when you're in a spacesuit?
    And speaking of Charlie Duke's dangerous jump, it can be seen complete with commentary online:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16D0hmLt-S0

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    Not much I can say that hasn't been said already.

    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    In the late 1960s there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) speculating that a suited astronaut on the moon ought easily be able to make jumps of 4-6 ft with no great effort.
    In the late 1980s, there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) that I was the son of Cthulhu and that humanity would fall when I came of age.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Weltraum View Post
    And speaking of Charlie Duke's dangerous jump, it can be seen complete with commentary online:

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16D0hmLt-S0
    Those jumps look pretty high to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by SolusLupus View Post
    Not much I can say that hasn't been said already.



    In the late 1980s, there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) that I was the son of Cthulhu and that humanity would fall when I came of age.
    I believe you

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    Ia! Ia! Cthulhu Fhtagn!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post

    I'd like to invite comments please.
    OK, here is one. Thinking out loud.
    How high can you jump using your ankles and calf muscles with minimum knee movement. Look at the video (posted higher) to determine the amount. You would obviously have to imagine a suit and PLSS unless you have one kicking around. I would suggest that the suit would have to be real and the PLSS also. This is because to film the hoax on earth I cannot see how it can be done unless it is in a vacuum.

    Now this raises the issues with what could be built in those days and indeed today in the way of vacuum chamber film sets. You need this because the action of the regolith and clarity of view and the sun comes up every day etc.

    Cannot see how it could be done unless it was on the moon.
    Last edited by Tedward; 2010-Feb-12 at 08:27 AM. Reason: Last sentence

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    Welcome to Baut,

    Indeed the sped up films do not look like they were filmed here on earth to me. The limb movement and moon dust movement go way too fast.

    As for why the astronauts are not trying to jump 20 feet in the air. Just remember a space suit is very restrictive and it is also breakable. It was built well however it was built to work not for speed and agility. Many many moveable parts means they need many many air tight pressurized seals, it is very possible to land wrongly and break your suit then you die. Not a good idea. Not to mention How increadibly off balance their centers of gravity are with the heavy back packs.

    Please watch some of the footage of them skipping around on the surface they pull off very long distances per skip with minimal bending of the knees. Something that could only happen under 1/6th gravity.

    please respond to the answers provided and let us know if you agree or disagree.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    How high should a moon astronaut be able to jump?
    How high do you think they should be able to jump and how do you justify your expectation?

    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show, logic says that the astronauts would have made the most of low gravity and performed amazing jumps and physical feats.
    I disagree entirely. Bearing in mind that the astronaiuts are in a totally hostile environment carrying the only thing keeping them alive on their backs, performing 'amazing jumps and physical feats' would be extremely inadvisable.

    Have you considered the difference between weight and mass? The astronauts may only weigh about 60lb, but they still have 360lb of mass, and that means they still have to deal with that in all their movements. Momentum is a problem.

    Yet there is no evidence of this. It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    Really? All of it? Including sections where the astronauts fall over and wave their arms around? The motions that are not affected by gravity look very strange indeed when you speed up the footage.

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    Funnily enough, the jump-salute photo was cause of much consternation for different reasons. Here's Jay's debunking.

    I was looking through ALSJ to find the jump-salute photo before I noticed LaurelHS has already ToSeeked me. I at first thought it was from Apollo 15, so I started there and found this. Is it just me or do the B&W photos have an extra aura of class to them?

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    The American TV program Mythbusters did an episode on the Moon Landing Hoax, and specifically addressed this idea.
    The film of the astronauts moonwalking is actually film of the astronauts skipping in front of a high-framerate camera, slowing down the picture and giving the illusion they are on the Moon.

    BUSTED

    Adam donned a replica NASA spacesuit and mimicked the astronauts’ motions while being filmed by a slow motion camera. They also attached Adam to wires in order to mimic the Moon’s lower gravity. While comparing their new footage with the original footage, the Mythbusters noted an initial similarity, but there were several small discrepancies attributable to filming in Earth’s gravity. In order to film in microgravity, the Mythbusters boarded a Reduced Gravity Aircraft and filmed the exact same movements. Adam noted that the movements were more comfortable and more logical in microgravity, and their footage from the plane looked exactly like the original NASA film. The Mythbusters concluded that the moon landing film is authentic.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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    Bearing in mind that much of the Apollo missions were a media show...
    Begging the question. I don't agree with that assessment at all.


    I should have clarified. To me, ‘playing’ golf, singing songs (“I was strolling on the moon one day…” and others), moon olympics (behind hardware) and generally performing for the camera are all forms of media show.


    ...logic says that the astronauts would have made the most of low gravity...

    No, logic says you're begging the question again. There are other factors to consider besides what the astronauts would "logically" have made the most of, in your humble opinion.

    Sorry, but I cannot agree. Perhaps you intimate that my opinion is more humble. As the missions progressed, public interest in Apollo gradually waned. To help counter it the media was fed an increasing diet of attention grabbing cameos and light entertainment. More simply, the opportunity of CLEARLY demonstrating 1/6 gravity would, in such a scenario, plainly be too good an opportunity to disregard.


    Since the astronauts' center of gravity was displaced considerably rearward by the PLSS and their peripheral range of motion was hampered by the PGA and the associated flexion aids, they found that extreme gymnastics were not advisable.

    I never mentioned ‘extreme gymnastics’. Just clearly evident demonstrations of 1/6 gravity.


    Neil Armstrong, for example, jumped up to the third rung of the LM -- a height he estimated as about five feet.

    Can you give a specific video link please, as I can’t locate it with the search you suggested? I have found http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcg...er-jump_events.
    As for the jump salute - http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16salute.mpg - a person would jump higher in 1/6 gravity after flexing his knees and pushing off hard as in this sequence. Compare it with jumps obscured by hardware – odd that when partially hidden, the astronauts' jumps are much more impressive and with such effortless ease, but I don't think anyone wants to witness that as a comparison.


    In the late 1980s, there were several scientific articles (sorry I don't have references) that I was the son of Cthulhu and that humanity would fall when I came of age.
    I believe you


    Good, Weltraum. That’s you out of the equation.


    I disagree entirely. Bearing in mind that the astronaiuts are in a totally hostile environment carrying the only thing keeping them alive on their backs, performing 'amazing jumps and physical feats' would be extremely inadvisable.

    I would not call a vertical jump from standstill of say 3 to 4 feet in 1/6 gravity an amazing feat at all. Quite a reasonable one actually.


    It very much looks like earth-filmed footage slowed down.
    The American TV program Mythbusters did an episode on the Moon Landing Hoax, and specifically addressed this idea.


    I have watched it and they did show very similar movement to astronauts on the moon. So thanks for that.

    For me the jury is still out on the Apollo program, though less so over the past year. A lot of the conspiracy theories have been debunked and I applaud that along with anyone who can counter argue sensibly. But conspiracy theorists do not hold exclusivity over holding on to ideas, concepts and beliefs despite what is questioned or shown to the contrary.

    I’m all for lively debate, although if it descends into the hostile or puerile (as with the Jose Escamilla thread) then it simply isn’t worth the bother. I have no problem discovering through evidence, logic and conclusion that I am wrong on something. No one is right all the time- but I dare say someone will disagree even on that!

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    I’m all for lively debate, although if it descends into the hostile or puerile (as with the Jose Escamilla thread) then it simply isn’t worth the bother. I have no problem discovering through evidence, logic and conclusion that I am wrong on something. No one is right all the time- but I dare say someone will disagree even on that!
    Dimo,

    If the discussion becomes hostile, please click on the Report Post button in the upper right corner of the offending post and let the Moderation team deal with it.

    But, I would also point out the advice for Conspiracy Theory suporters and rule of this forum. Under those, as the advocate of a conspiracy theory (in this case, that the moon landing were faked) it is your obligation to prove this, and to answer all questions put to you. It is not up to the rest of the membership to prove to you that the landings were real.
    At night the stars put on a show for free (Carole King)

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    To me, ‘playing’ golf, singing songs (“I was strolling on the moon one day…” and others), moon olympics (behind hardware) and generally performing for the camera are all forms of media show.
    Those are small PR events in literally hours and hours of footage of them doing really a very dull job. PR was of course part of the Apollo program, on the basis that NASA was fiunded by the taxpayers and they should see some of the results of their expediture (there was a big argument in NASA about getting TV on the flights at all: it almost was discounted as a waste of weight and time, detracting from the actual business of landing on the Moon). There is a very tiny proportion of the footage that can be considered any kind of 'show'. They didn't go there just to put on a show, they went there to do a job.


    More simply, the opportunity of CLEARLY demonstrating 1/6 gravity would, in such a scenario, plainly be too good an opportunity to disregard.
    To many people they did clearly demonstrate the low gravity, with long throws, picking up heavy equipment, and bounding around. Only a few people find anything wrong with that.

    a person would jump higher in 1/6 gravity after flexing his knees and pushing off hard as in this sequence.
    Really? In a space suit that resists every bending motion? Go on, push off hard and see how high you jump from a standing start bending your knees onlt as far as John Young did.

    I would not call a vertical jump from standstill of say 3 to 4 feet in 1/6 gravity an amazing feat at all. Quite a reasonable one actually.
    But a potentially dangerous one when the heavy backpack moves their centre of gravity backwards and they can't see their feet clearly. The potential consequences of damaging the PLSS are too severe to warrant jumping in the air for the sake of it, just to satisfy a few people that they are really in low gravity. Have you seen Jack Schmitt flinging the geology hammer? Have you seen Gene Cernan bouding down the slope and then falling over at the end, sending a spray of dust several metres (dust that doesn't aerosolise and travels far further than would be expected on Earth)? Have you seen the wonderful clip (I think from Apollo 16) that shows one of the astronauts throwing the mylar blanket off a piece of ALSEP equipment using a tool handle? It flies around quite amazingly in the low gravity and with no air resistance. Have you seen Buzz Aldrin effortlessly carrying the rather large EASEP packages?

    There is plenty of evidence of their low gravity environment on show in the Apollo footage. Your singling out one thing they did not do just seems like dismissing the whole lot because it doesn't live up to your expectations. NASA was under no obligations to live up to your expectations of what the astronauts should have been doing on the Moon while the TV cameras were on them.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    I should have clarified. To me, ‘playing’ golf, singing songs (“I was strolling on the moon one day…” and others), moon olympics (behind hardware) and generally performing for the camera are all forms of media show.
    This is a straw man. Just because there is occasional frivolity, it does not mean the whole thing is the Apollo Variety Hour. Many hours were spent in lunar EVA accomplishing real science. Most of this stuff is as dull as rocks (hahahaha) to the average public. It is only the astronauts' small bits of frivolity put in to amuse themselves more than anything else that gets attention.

    I advise you to become more thoroughly versed in the full extent of lunar surface activities before passing judgement on the tone of the lunar surface stays.

    Sorry, but I cannot agree. Perhaps you intimate that my opinion is more humble. As the missions progressed, public interest in Apollo gradually waned. To help counter it the media was fed an increasing diet of attention grabbing cameos and light entertainment. More simply, the opportunity of CLEARLY demonstrating 1/6 gravity would, in such a scenario, plainly be too good an opportunity to disregard.
    Begging the question again. Apollos 12 thru 17 were not increasingly putting in gimmicks. They were however becoming more relaxed as they had more time and more confidence.

    I never mentioned ‘extreme gymnastics’. Just clearly evident demonstrations of 1/6 gravity.
    We have provided evidence of some feats that clearly would not have been possible in Earth surface gravity. You have rejected them based on the notion that they're not good enough. Show us your calculations to justify how high you think they should have jumped. Do you not accept concern about maintaining balance?

    Can you give a specific video link please, as I can’t locate it with the search you suggested? I have found http://www.dailymotion.com/video/xcg...er-jump_events.
    Here is a Quicktime movie of Armstrong's egress from Eagle. There are many other videos easily available on ALSJ.

    As for the jump salute - http://www.hq.nasa.gov/alsj/a16/a16salute.mpg - a person would jump higher in 1/6 gravity after flexing his knees and pushing off hard as in this sequence.
    Please justify with calculations and analogues.

    I would not call a vertical jump from standstill of say 3 to 4 feet in 1/6 gravity an amazing feat at all. Quite a reasonable one actually.
    So you accept that the astronauts display movements that are reasonable for the lunar surface environment?

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    To me, ‘playing’ golf, singing songs (“I was strolling on the moon one day…” and others), moon olympics (behind hardware) and generally performing for the camera are all forms of media show.
    So you have no concept of what it is to "have fun" while working?

    As the missions progressed, public interest in Apollo gradually waned. To help counter it the media was fed an increasing diet of attention grabbing cameos and light entertainment.
    Be specific...what "cameos/entertainment"??

    I never mentioned ‘extreme gymnastics’. Just clearly evident demonstrations of 1/6 gravity.
    Watching them walk around is sufficient for that...why is it not sufficient for you?

    ...odd that when partially hidden, the astronauts' jumps are much more impressive and with such effortless ease, but I don't think anyone wants to witness that as a comparison.
    That's ridiculous. It is OF COURSE easier to jump when you have something to steady you.

    Good, Weltraum. That’s you out of the equation.
    NO...Weltraum may be sarcastic, but his point that you come here and talk about articles that you can not provide is entirely relevant.

    edit to add...it was actually Solus Lupus who posted what dimos was referring to. Please learn how to use the quote feature..it'll make things less confusing.



    I would not call a vertical jump from standstill of say 3 to 4 feet in 1/6 gravity an amazing feat at all. Quite a reasonable one actually.
    Well, if you "ran the railroad" then you could "call" it whatever you want...but that doesn't make it reasonable for the safety reasons already listed.

    I have no problem discovering through evidence, logic and conclusion that I am wrong on something.
    Then you should enjoy your stay here.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o View Post
    To help counter it the media was fed an increasing diet of attention grabbing cameos and light entertainment.
    What, Alfred Hitchcock dropped by? I do not think cameo means what you think it means.

    For me the jury is still out on the Apollo program, though less so over the past year. A lot of the conspiracy theories have been debunked and I applaud that along with anyone who can counter argue sensibly. But conspiracy theorists do not hold exclusivity over holding on to ideas, concepts and beliefs despite what is questioned or shown to the contrary.
    One side has evidence. The other does not. "Ideas, concepts, and beliefs" are all well and good, but the hoax believer crowd can't even come up with one coherent explanation which fits all the known evidence.

    I’m all for lively debate, although if it descends into the hostile or puerile (as with the Jose Escamilla thread) then it simply isn’t worth the bother. I have no problem discovering through evidence, logic and conclusion that I am wrong on something. No one is right all the time- but I dare say someone will disagree even on that!
    So you plan to answer questions when asked, then, right? As per the rules?
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    Hi Dimo,

    the claim the astronauts were adding entertainment shows into their EVAs is somewhat unfair. Off the top of my head I'd say the percentage of "frivolous" moments against "fun while working" against pure work would be 0.02%, 15% and 74.98% comparitively. For example after over 9 hours on the lunar surface, Al Shepard's golf shot took less than 60 seconds. Surely you cannot claim that was a dominant chunk of the moonwalks.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Dwight View Post
    For example after over 9 hours on the lunar surface, Al Shepard's golf shot took less than 60 seconds. Surely you cannot claim that was a dominant chunk of the moonwalks.
    Sure; but how long did he take to get to the shot? Don't forget, they didn't have a golf cart up there until the next mission.

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    Fom the second he grabs the "club" to taking the three shots to going back to work is circa 55 seconds.

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    Quote Originally Posted by D i m o
    Good, Weltraum. That’s you out of the equation.
    Buh?

    It appears I have made one person mad*. He sees faces that don't belong!




    *This was meant in a light spirited way, and not as an ad hominem or insult.

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