HP Lovecraft on science

[parallaxicality]

I'm trying to write a ghost story, so I've been seriously boning up on my HP Lovecraft. One of his opening statements, from The Call of Cathulu struck me as summing up Lovecraft's world philosophy about as succinctly as possible, but it also struck me that you guys might have something to say about it. Tell me what you think.

The most merciful thing in the world, I think, is the inability of the human mind to correlate all its contents. We live in a placid island of ignorance in the midst of black seas of infinity, and it was not meant that we should voyage far. The sciences, each straining in its own direction, have hitherto harmed us little, but someday the piecing together of dissociated knowledge will open up such terrifying vistas of reality, and of our own frightful position therein, that we shall either go mad from the revelation, or flee from the deadly light into the peace and safety of a new Dark Age.

I can't say I haven't thought similar things while alone on a dark night. It's interesting to note that Lovecraft was very keen on astronomy.

[Ken G]

I think he has a point there, but he may be overlooking the way a healthy mind automatically protects itself. I don't think a healthy mind can go insane from knowledge, no matter how far from the "island" it wanders-- because it simply will not comprehend what could drive it insane. That's almost the definition of mental health-- the ability to make sense of what it can, and ignore or rationalize all the rest.

[grant hutchison]

... The Call of Cathulu ...

That's Cthulhu.
Oh boy you're in trouble now.

Grant Hutchison

[Ken G]

Yes, that's practically a religion on a science forum!

On the subject of insanity, I rather liked Joseph Heller's take in Catch-22: to maintain the appearance of sanity given what is happening around us requires insanity. I'd add that the sane ones can't pull it off, and make the rest of us so uncomfortable we have to put them away somewhere.

[transreality]

It seems to match with Sagans' candle in the demon-haunted darkness...

[EDG]

I think he has a point there, but he may be overlooking the way a healthy mind automatically protects itself. I don't think a healthy mind can go insane from knowledge, no matter how far from the "island" it wanders-- because it simply will not comprehend what could drive it insane. That's almost the definition of mental health-- the ability to make sense of what it can, and ignore or rationalize all the rest.

It's not so much that though. It's comprehension of what is out there that is driving Lovecraft's characters (and the many, many hapless fools- er, I mean investigators - in every Call of Cthulhu RPG ever played) insane.

What they don't grasp goes harmlessly over their heads. It's what they DO get a grip on that flays the sanity from their feeble minds. It's the realisation that there are these loathesome, squamous, timeless, cyclopean, immortal, (insert obscure adjective here), things out there that we are but ants to, and that our hitherto nice, sheltered, "humans are top-dog or important" worldview is a complete fallacy that breaks the characters' minds.

Maybe you haven't read much of HPL's stuff - if you haven't, I'd suggest giving it a go, then you'll know where he's coming from.

Though to the OP... I don't think Lovecraft works that well as inspiration for ghost stories. You want something like Casting the Runes by MR James if you want ghost stories from that era. IIRC MR James was actually an influence on Lovecraft too.

[EDG]

That's Cthulhu.
Oh boy you're in trouble now.

Grant Hutchison

Nah, it's Hastur you've got to watch out for....

Oops. Now I've done it!

[parallaxicality]

That's Cthulhu.
Oh boy you're in trouble now.

Grant Hutchison

I can't believe I did that.

loathesome, squamous, timeless, cyclopean, immortal, (insert obscure adjective here),

eldritch, charnal, demoniac, noisome...

[Ken G]

Maybe you haven't read much of HPL's stuff - if you haven't, I'd suggest giving it a go, then you'll know where he's coming from.

I haven't read any at all, though I'll grant it captures people's imaginations. Still, I see those elements as metaphors for things we already all live with and know about. We know that life appears where it can, not where it should. We know that we will face struggles, some difficult, some futile. We know that death awaits in a thousand ways, most quite unpleasant. Yet we maintain an optimistic attitude all the same, just because it is the mentally healthy thing to do. What does Lovecraft have going on in his world that we don't have in ours?

[BigDon]

I haven't read any at all, though I'll grant it captures people's imaginations. Still, I see those elements as metaphors for things we already all live with and know about. We know that life appears where it can, not where it should. We know that we will face struggles, some difficult, some futile. We know that death awaits in a thousand ways, most quite unpleasant. Yet we maintain an optimistic attitude all the same, just because it is the mentally healthy thing to do. What does Lovecraft have going on in his world that we don't have in ours?

He had issues.

Not all insanities were passively aquired through shock and self awareness. Some races, notebly the Lloigor and the Cthonians, communicate telepathically, emphasis on pathology. (Neither are remotely humanoid or humane) Humans standing between actively communicating Lloigor and to a lesser extent, Cthonians, tend to have things happen to thier minds very much analogous to computers getting X-rayed. Bits get flipped.

Humans exposed for over a year tend to be irreversably damaged. Mentally they start becoming classically "orc-like", violent, quarrelsome, never comfortable. Sadism and cruelty developes in even normal men and women. "Pecular" cults spring up among people who normally wouldn't consider such activity.

Sadly, the cults are often attached to other entities that exist in that millieu, who will show up if properly entreated. This in no way helps the situation. At least relative to you and I. Necromancy? Pshaw! Child's play on the evil scale, compared to algemancy. Coming across the leavings of those ceremonies isn't good for the inner well being either.

And that's just them standing around and chatting. Add to all that the Lloigor tend to dislike humans intensely, but won't go out of their way to kill them. You pretty much have to trespass on them. Appalacia and the remote parts of Scotland have known colonies of Lloigor.

I think there may be a colony of Cthonians in northern California between Lake Berryessa and the ocean. At least close enough to the surface to affect people. The geological history of the area bears out this hypothethis well. Then you have those towns were people tear down all the signs leading to their towns. And if you drive in by mistake everybody on the the street goes indoors and the cafe closes mid-day.

South of me, in Pacifica, you have those "people" who are associates of the Deep Ones. They're not sane mainly because most of them are hybrids. (Human + X does not equal human, if X is a non-zero term.) Often becoming more and more "other" as they mature. Almost all converting entirely by thier mid forties.

Some of them have astounding longevity for material creatures and they grow through out their lives. Life spans on the order of 2 million years are not uncommon for members of that race, and the two oldest members of their respective genders, Father Dagon and Mother Hydra, may have been born in the late Cretaceous. They don't think much of us humans.

Then you have the malevolent stuff. In the outer gulfs of space. Enities only partially made of normal matter. Those things you don't even want to mess with. A characteristic of most creatures of the outer gulfs are exagerated teeth and claws, similar to deep sea creatures. They tend to retain these features even if posessed of great intellect and or no long comsume material nutrients. Intellectivores and creatures than can remotely drain the energy given off by the ATP reaction in living cells are not uncommon. The first being a specialized subset of the former.

Para, if you think you are having issues you may want to consult somebody who knows a thing or two about the subject. Do you need to know how to ward windows and doors? Look up how to make an "Elder sign". Even small ones are effective. The best (most effective) ones are made with either serpentine or soap stone.

[SolusLupus]

BigDon is a bigger expert on Lovecraft than me!

I mostly focus on the negative stuff when it comes to Lovecraft. Racism, his ideas on degenerates, "sins of the father" type stuff.

All the rest of that does sound quite interesting, though. I need to read more.

[EDG]

What does Lovecraft have going on in his world that we don't have in ours?

Alien gods, and unpleasant sorcery for one. The unknown is something very much to be feared in his world.

He's very nihilistic - humanity are completely insignificant in HPL's universe. We are not the first intelligent race to live on Earth - others came here from elsewhere and llived here millions of years ago before they too were destroyed by the horrors of the universe. Some - like Cthulhu himself - still remain on Earth, sleeping in hidden cities and twisting the dreams of the humans above.

It's all known as the "Cthulhu Mythos", and there's a lot of it (built on later by Derleth and other writers). You can start here if you want to read about it - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cthulhu_Mythos . There's a rather complete timeline here too: http://www.dracandros.com/Jebgarg/Ni...cthuchrono.htm


Hastur is my favourite Great Old One - the whole Carcosa/Hali myth is alien horror at its best IMO. The King In Yellow by R.W. Chambers (I think?) is a good read, and I had the good fortune to act in a version of the play itself, which was great fun. Colours Out of Space and the Hounds of Tindalos are probably my favourite beasties.

[SolusLupus]

What does Lovecraft have going on in his world that we don't have in ours?

Old Ones.

Deep Ones.

Elder Gods.

Rituals that can mate with Elder Gods and bear their children.

Aliens that will abduct you for their experiments, and kind of love brains.

A dream world that a Byakhee would take you to.

A mad doctor that can reanimate dead tissue with a single injection, that ends up creating a new race, seemingly using tissue from lizards.

The Yellow King, Cthulhu, Nyarlathotep, Yog Sothoth, Shub Niggurath, but I'm just repeating myself here.

Pretty much everything in every story he's written. Ever.

[BigDon]

BigDon is a bigger expert on Lovecraft than me!

I mostly focus on the negative stuff when it comes to Lovecraft. Racism, his ideas on degenerates, "sins of the father" type stuff.

All the rest of that does sound quite interesting, though. I need to read more.

Where was he particularly racist, particularly for 1920? One character in one story, Rats in the Walls had a black cat named Niggarman but that's the extent of any direct racial insensitivety I recall.

Most of his "degenerates" were Deep One/human hybrids or Creatures of the outer gulfs/human hybrids. The "sins of the fathers" theme was old ship captains cross breeding with them and performing human sacrifice in exchange for gold, magic and the power to do great harm to thier rivals. Up to and encluding weather control and major earthquakes. That starts to excede "the pursuit of happiness" umbrella most actual degenerates shelter under in the United States. ()

This isn't counting that fact that the Deep Ones seek to hasten the awakening of Great Cthulu. That will mean the extinction on the human race by the way.

Then you have the Whateleys of Dunwich, Mass. Father and daughter who were powerful sorcerers and two "grandsons". One of whom took after his father a lot more than his twin brother. Not Deep Ones this time, but creatures of the Outer Gulfs. Those goings on would qualify as degeneracy by most definitions, (if not out and out tenticle hentai).

And the dogs will know you reflects the fact that most hybrids with COTOG's freak out dogs and horses. That thing from The Ring is a classic human/COTOG hydrid. European sorcerors were famous for decevieving others into hydridizing with these things in exchange for the usual stuff.

Now what was your issue with Lovecraft? Sounds like you were reading reviews by non objective readers who went in looking for a fight.

[parallaxicality]

That's what I find so interesting, and why I thought it might be fun to discuss with you guys. All you astro buffs here seem to have a deep affection for the unknown; you see it not as something to fear but as something to embrace. Lovecraft was an astronomy buff too, but the exact opposite seems to have happened to him. As one documentary I heard on Youtube put it, the darkness and cold of space seeped into his soul. I find it curious that someone with such a pathological fear of the unknown (and his racism was obviously a part of that) would be attracted to astronomy.

And it's difficult to see stories like "Shadow Over Innsmouth", with its tale of subhuman crossbreeding and misegination, or "Facts Concerning the Late Arthur Jermyn and His Family", about a tribe of sentient, human-breeding African gorillas, as anything other than racist parables.

[SolusLupus]

Where was he particularly racist, particularly for 1920?

Herbert West: Reanimator, the depiction of the black boxer, and his views on immigration in Horror at Red Hook. Also a poem, where he basically states that "niggers" were a race of animals.

Also, he was actually exceptional for his time period. While most people in his time period were separatists, he was a white supremist; I'll let this explain.

While he did have a Jewish wife (which I'm sure someone will use to argue a case), he often made rants against the Jews straight to her. It's like he never even realized her ancestry.

Now what was your issue with Lovecraft? Sounds like you were reading reviews by non objective readers who went in looking for a fight.

Yes, yes, and it sounds like you're not being objective and trying to ignore things that go against your beloved author... blah blah blah.

Let's avoid discussing personal motivations, shall we?

[BigDon]

Para, I resume we posted at the same time?

Jesus, the man was telling stories. You get on me for calling Hienlein a fascist, saying I misunderstood him. Maybeso, but I'm going to envoke the same argument here in Lovecraft's defense.

[BigDon]

I've never heard of your entry before Sol. It seems rather unique given the volumne of his writing.

[SolusLupus]

I've never heard of your entry before Sol. It seems rather unique given the volumne of his writing.

Some stuff stuck. Some stuff didn't. His personal views were in place and affected his work. Para pointed out the interpretations of his work that seem to disagree with your own, but is shared by more than just us two.

You say he was just telling stories, but it is not unusual for stories to be an outlet for someone's personal beliefs. I happen to know more about the man; you seem to not. So that's "my issue", I guess; I happen to have access to knowledge you did not.

I will admit you have a deeper understanding of the workings of the Cthulhu Mythos, and I laud you for that, but that doesn't negate what I've stated.

And I will say that the depiction of the black boxer in Herbert West was quite blatant.

[BigDon]

Some stuff stuck. Some stuff didn't. His personal views were in place and affected his work.

You say he was just telling stories, but it is not unusual for stories to be an outlet for someone's personal beliefs. I happen to know more about the man; you seem to not. So that's "my issue", I guess; I happen to have access to knowledge you did not.

I will admit you have a deeper understanding of the workings of the Cthulhu Mythos, and I laud you for that, but that doesn't negate what I've stated.

A man can't react to he doesn't know.

[SolusLupus]

Well, that's kind of why I'm interested in that part of Lovecraft. It's the bit very few people talk about.

Still, the content of his stories are quite potent, even with that knowledge. No one's perfect, after all, and he was overall quite harmless.

[BigDon]

Well, that's kind of why I'm interested in that part of Lovecraft. It's the bit very few people talk about.

Still, the content of his stories are quite potent, even with that knowledge. No one's perfect, after all, and he was overall quite harmless.

Okay, peace. Real life is complicated enough without getting in a twist over dead fantacists.

[grant hutchison]

What does Lovecraft have going on in his world that we don't have in ours?

Others have provided replies to this, but I think it's summarized in a splendid Lovecraftian adjective that parallaxicality and EDG_ didn't list: nefandous. Some things in Lovecraft's universe are simply unspeakably evil, and therefore fall into the category of That Which Man Is Not Meant To Know.

Grant Hutchison

[BigDon]

I will admit you have a deeper understanding of the workings of the Cthulhu Mythos, and I laud you for that, but that doesn't negate what I've stated.

I could tell you stories that would turn you white...

I'd even relate some if the OP wouldn't consider it a highjack.

[SolusLupus]

I could tell you stories that would turn you white...

I'd even relate some if the OP wouldn't consider it a highjack.

And I knew what you were Not Meant to Know about Lovecraft.

You're welcome to PM me if they would.

[parallaxicality]

I wouldn't mind. This thread's gone a bit off topic already.

[Paul Beardsley]

For anyone wanting to get into Lovecraft (or to renew acquaintance) I strongly recommend the Penguin Modern Classics releases from a few years ago. They include extensive footnotes by S.T. Joshi, probably the best-known and best Lovecraft scholar. The notes are very accessible, and point out links (and occasional contradictions) between stories. Some of the contradictions are quite amusing, including the wildly different locations of Leng.

Joshi is pretty much unflinching about the quite significant racism aspect. (It is ironic that Lovecraft would have regarded Joshi as subhuman!)

The books are The Call of Cthulhu And Other Weird Stories, The Thing on the Doorstep AOWS, and The Dreams in the Witch House AOWS.

[Celestial Mechanic]

{Snip!} eldritch, charnal, demoniac, noisome...

I've always thought the Dungeons and Dragons should have a magical weapon named the Eldritch Cleaver!

[Ken G]

Lovecraft was an astronomy buff too, but the exact opposite seems to have happened to him. As one documentary I heard on Youtube put it, the darkness and cold of space seeped into his soul.

But that's exactly what I'm talking about. We have that in our universe, yet the mentally healthy are not driven insane by it (consider Douglas Adams' "Infinite Perspective Vortex" machine). We are separated by over 30 magnitudes of size from ourselves to the largest scales we can talk about, and another 30 plus magnitudes to the smallest scales we can talk about. We are either spectacularly insignificant specks in comparison, or vastly humongous behemoths. It is not that our universe does not contain such elements of mind-wrenching horror, it is that our minds are immune to it by nature-- we simply have no comprehension of what this means, and so we carry on in pleasant obliviousness.

[Ken G]

Some things in Lovecraft's universe are simply unspeakably evil, and therefore fall into the category of That Which Man Is Not Meant To Know.

There's plenty of that in this world too. We simply avoid that which we are not meant to know, until that moment just before becoming a murder victim, or just after seeing our child step in front of a car. I don't find anything about semi-corporal space aliens who can eat my brain to be scarier than looking into the eyes of a person who intends to kill me, or watching everything I wanted to leave behind me in this world taken away in one inexplicable moment (I'm not saying I've experienced these things, but we all do know they are out there). From what I've heard so far, H.P. wasn't hardly even trying!