Wernher Von Braun captured by the Russians:no Apollo

[Yannox]

Wernher Von Braun surrendered with most of his team to an American private. But a large part of his rocket scientists were also caught by the Russians. WI the entire team, their plans & V2 parts had been caught by the Russians?

Without Operation Paperclip, the Russians would have had a huge start. Would it have been sufficient so that there is virtually no US space program ever: no Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, moon landing, space lab or shuttle? Or that NASA would be at least 10 years behind the Russians?

Or would all the stops behind Yankee ingenuity and spies be pulled out, and they'd manage even without Von Braun's team?

[Emspak]

I think there aer a few different questions you are bringing up with that WI question.

I remember an article done in the New York Times Magazine sometime back about why the Russians failed to get to the moon at all. One of the more interesting reasons given was organization. The Russians, (thought the Americans) will just marshal every available scientist, force a whole lot of people to work on the project, and through sheer force get the thing done on time.

But the Soviet system never really worked that way. It was made up of many, many components, each with their own agendas. (Even the most ruthless dictator, Stalin, operated under very serious political constraints-- few of his works outlived him). So, even with Von Braun, there would have been political infighting. I don't doubt Braun would have managed it well, but still.

Another factor was the death of the head of the Russian moon project, (I think IIRC it was Koralev), who was the guy with the right political contacts to keep the project coherent.

It isn't so much a matter of technological prowess, per se. Both sides had the relevant technology and expertise. But NASA was laser-focused on the moon project, and much of the development of probes and such was also related to getting to the Moon. The Russians had a moon project that was in some ways all over the place. It was like 10 different projects or something. Since there was no one person who could control all the infighting, the entire thing went down the drain.

The joke was made in the Times piece: the Communists should have acted more like Communists.

An interesting idea is what if Koralev had lived. Or what if Kruschev had remained in power much longer (his premiership was cut short and he supported the moon project, Brezhnev it seems was indifferent).

While Braun was an expert in rocket technology, he was more of a technologist than a theorist, IMO. What Braun helped to do was to build political support for a moon shot. That is as important or more so than his technical skills. After all, if the USSR had never tried sending anyone into orbit, the US would probably not have stepped up, and there was plenty of political opposition in the politburo to going to the moon on the American's terms (some wanted to see the Mars mission, others Venus -- and some just felt the money and time was better spent on space-based weapons).

[Sam5]

Without Operation Paperclip, the Russians would have had a huge start. Would it have been sufficient so that there is virtually no US space program ever: no Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, moon landing, space lab or shuttle? Or that NASA would be at least 10 years behind the Russians?


Even though we had Von Braun, the Russians put the first satellite in space, so they seemed to do ok without him. I think he is a little over-rated. I recall a lot of our rockets blowing up on the launch pad, while the sputnik was alread in orbit.

[ToSeek]

Without Operation Paperclip, the Russians would have had a huge start. Would it have been sufficient so that there is virtually no US space program ever: no Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, moon landing, space lab or shuttle? Or that NASA would be at least 10 years behind the Russians?


Even though we had Von Braun, the Russians put the first satellite in space, so they seemed to do ok without him. I think he is a little over-rated. I recall a lot of our rockets blowing up on the launch pad, while the sputnik was alread in orbit.

A lot of Russian rockets blew up; we just never heard about them.

[Maksutov]

Without Operation Paperclip, the Russians would have had a huge start. Would it have been sufficient so that there is virtually no US space program ever: no Mercury, Gemini, Apollo, moon landing, space lab or shuttle? Or that NASA would be at least 10 years behind the Russians?


Even though we had Von Braun, the Russians put the first satellite in space, so they seemed to do ok without him. I think he is a little over-rated. I recall a lot of our rockets blowing up on the launch pad, while the sputnik was alread in orbit.

Almost all of those rockets that blew up on the pad were non-von Braun rockets, such as the Thor, Atlas, Titan, Navaho, and the infamous Vanguard, which Eisenhower designated as the "civilian project' rocket that would get the US into space, satellite-wise. Von Braun's Redstone based Jupiter-C/Juno 1 vehicle rarely had problems. Even the Jupiter-based Juno II only had one failure attributable to its first stage, the others being due to the solid upper stages misfiring. Every one of the Saturns lifted off fine and performed within operational tolerances.