NASA's Credibility on the line, was thier decision to come forth right?

[Tenshu]

Ever since NASA started to campaign against the nonsensical factor's behind 2012, i've seen several people. (mostly on youtube.) have begun to challenge their claims saying that thier lying and only doing what they do to cover up the "truth".

Should NASA have kept quiet about everything? Or was thier decision to come out and expose the liers the right one?

If i get in trouble again so be it, I deserve punishiment for everything.

[ineluki]

Should NASA have kept quiet about everything? Or was thier decision to come out and expose the liers the right one?

NASA was basically in a no-win scenario with regard to the crackpot claims.

If they don't address it, they take it as a sign that NASA can't counter the claim, if they do, it becomes "important" enough and therefor true.

I think we all know that for the frauds and other proponents of Conspiracies, reality is irrelevant, and even a detailed explanation how to check something for themselves will be ignored.

But I still be believe that giving the truth is far preferrable with regard to the fencesitters and those who have only heard one side of the issue.

[01101001]

In just over three years from now, NASA can finally say: see, we told the truth then: nothing extraordinary was going to happen December 21, 2012, and nothing extraordinary came to pass -- just as NASA soundly predicted.

And then when the inevitable dire, nonsensical predictions for whenever, 2016, 2025, 2099, etc. come along, maybe some individuals will be able look back at 2012 and have a chance of understanding who is just making stuff up and who gives it to you straight. It's good to go on record against the fear-mongers and charlatans.

===

I happily note that I haven't had to publish the list of BAUT Forum 2012 prediction topics for a month or so. This while the 2012 movie is released and interest should be very high. Perhaps I can hope people are getting the message that 2012 predictions are overwhelmingly more fiction than fact.

I'll just link to the list here, article in topic NASA FAQ: 2012: [...] Why the World Won't End? (http://www.bautforum.com/conspiracy-theories/96274-nasa-faq-2012-why-world-wont-end.html#post1618492), in case a concerned person finds this discussion in doing research. I know no one is advocating the nonsense predictions here. But if this topic descends into advocacy -- like so many 2012 topics seem to do -- I'll insert the list right here, fast.

By the way, the NASA article under discussion here does deserve a documenting link:
NASA FAQ: 2012: Beginning of the End or Why the World Won't End? (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html)

[HenrikOlsen]

Ever since NASA started to campaign against the nonsensical factor's behind 2012, i've seen several people. (mostly on youtube.)
YouTube commentary is proof that there is no lower limit to how stupid people can be and still be able post on the internet.

[publiusr]

Then too, the way bad things happen, it would be NASA's luck if an undiscovered impactor just happened to hit that year.

[DrRocket]

Should NASA have kept quiet about everything? Or was thier decision to come out and expose the liers the right one?



NASA's plate is plenty full with projects for which they have a clear charter and an insufficient budget. Debunking the 2012 nonsense is a waste of scarce resources.

It is also futile, since one is attempting to use scientific information and rational thinking to communicate with people who are inherently irrational anyway.

[danscope]

And like one Chinese philosopher once said:
"Just dig a hole that's deep enough......
---- and everybody will want to jump in to it. "

[hhEb09'1]

I happily note that I haven't had to publish the list of BAUT Forum 2012 prediction topics for a month or so. This while the 2012 movie is released and interest should be very high. Perhaps I can hope people are getting the message that 2012 predictions are overwhelmingly more fiction than fact.
Clearly, the special effects are just too cheesy :)

What we really need, then, is an over-the-top remake of Capricorn One.

Capricron Two? Aquarius One? Ophiuchus Naught?

[Tenshu]

YouTube commentary is proof that there is no lower limit to how stupid people can be and still be able post on the internet.

maybe so but it's scary to see how many people actually write such hateful and fearful things.

and the following comment about "nibiru" on one of my friends pages doesn't help much.

rx7inheaven: from Brisbane it is staight up in the sky,appears about 6.30pm first star to see ,i see it with my celestron 130 astromaster most nights when clear,it has 4 maybe 5 moons ??,in the infrared has a massive corona

Again Astronomy is being used as a dagger and is peircing my heart and soul....

[DippyHippy]

LOL Seriously, is someone mistaking Jupiter for Planet X? F'real??

[ineluki]

NASA's plate is plenty full with projects for which they have a clear charter and an insufficient budget. Debunking the 2012 nonsense is a waste of scarce resources.

I have to disagree.

I can't imagine that it took a lot or time and research to debunk this nonsense. Even if only 1% of the casual 2012ers is convinced, it was IMHO worth it.

[Tenshu]

LOL Seriously, is someone mistaking Jupiter for Planet X? F'real??

well considering people say tbey used heat lenses to see this and that jupiter does not give off heat due to it being a gas giant it's kinda strange don't you think?

[Drunk Vegan]

well considering people say tbey used heat lenses to see this and that jupiter does not give off heat due to it being a gas giant it's kinda strange don't you think?

False - Jupiter does indeed give off heat. In fact, it's interesting for the very fact that it gives off more heat than it receives from the Sun. Jupiter has an estimated temperature of 36,000 Kelvin at the core.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jupiter#Mass

[Tenshu]

i'm not going to continue posting for a while as it seems i've shamed myself too much, but before i do go i'd like to leave two more comments this time posted by a man from youtube named highwic who was claiming it was wormwood/nibiru.

comment 1:
I went to an astronomical evening Sat 14 Nov, lots of telescopes
when i arrived they all said the object was jupiter and looking at it it does
look like jupiter with its moons
then i bought out the infrareds and after that nobody was saying jupiter
the 2 million mile wide corona SAYS IT ALL

comment 2.
no its not , infrared binos tell a different story , they show a corona 2 million miles wide (heated methane)
Jupiter has no corona because at the cloud tops it is -140 C

[Drunk Vegan]

There are certainly more plausible explanations than a brown dwarf or "Dead" Red Dwarf. Even an undiscovered gas giant is implausible, to say the least.

Jupiter's magnetosphere is quite large, reaching millions of miles beyond the planet. I'm not sure if you could see it in the infrared though.

It could also easily be the Milky Way or another galaxy or nearby nebula that happened to be behind Jupiter in the line of sight when the observation was taken.

[EricFD]

I believe NASA did the right thing by debunking the 2012 nonsense. The only people who are going to challenge this are the crackpots who believe and perpetuate this garbage anyway. And what rational person really cares what they think or say? I certainly don't!

[chrlzs]

i'm not going to continue posting for a while as it seems...

...posted by a man from youtube named highwic who was claiming it was wormwood/nibiru.

"then i bought out the infrareds and after that nobody was saying jupiter
the 2 million mile wide corona SAYS IT ALL"


Hopefully you may still be around.. From an earlier post:



... it's scary to see how many people actually write such hateful and fearful things.


Why 'scary'? How many people say these things, against how many people are on the planet? In what way are these people credible? Is it possible that some/many/all are pulling your chain, or are delusional and/or lacking in the ability to properly interpret images?

And most importantly, do you think you will get a correct and balanced view of these topics if you go looking for this stuff? What methods do you personally use, to verify what you are told? If you rely on others who are more knowledgeable on a topic, do you think you will find them at conspiracy forums, or on Youtube? How much time have you spent on genuine science/astronomy forums/sites?

I won't debate all the little examples you have given, but I would give you one simple example. I suggest you ask these folks, eg Mr 'highwic', with their allegedly IR-capable binoculars and telescopes, to give details of the equipment (in particular the IR methodology used), and to post images including background stars and other verification (locations, dates and times). Also, make sure they show a KNOWN object like Venus or even a distant streetlamp! and that they show what happens when they defocus, zoom back..

In other words, just ask them to properly elaborate on their 'discoveries' as an astronomer would, and to verify the quality of their equipment on known objects.

I'm betting the only sound you will then hear is them scuttling for cover, and looking for the next naive soul to impress/fool... But if you CAN find what you think is a decent, well-put-together illustration of something weird/unidentified/scary, by all means come on back and post the *details*, with all that supporting stuff.

Without it, YT videos/comments and other unsupported claims are worth even less than what you just paid for them...

And if you are not up to this, by all means give me a few more details on this highwic character, and I'll do it! :) His name didn't come up on a YT search, and I'm not going to search through nibiru nonsense.

And finally, may I suggest YOU join an astronomy club, and go find out what *really* happens - ask them to show you Jupiter, and how they might use IR *properly*.. You'll begin to discover the sky is full of wonder, not fear. You'll also be amazed at the standard of equipment that hundreds of thousands of amateur astronomers use, and yet none of them (the real ones) are talking about this nonsense, except to debunk it.

But if you want to be fearful of the sky, by all means keep following youtube links or hanging out at conspiracy forums.

PS...

Warning - shameful hypocrisy and self-promotion follows..

I'm sorry, I can't resist under these circumstances - here's a Youtube video I did!, showing Jupiter (mostly in IR) from back in February. I'm happy to redo it now - just give me the coordinates of the object...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaB2r8ykpMI

That was not taken by a telescope (can you tell? :)) - just a cheap 20x zoom camcorder, fitted with a mid quality tele-extender lens to give a bit more reach. It was also mounted on a fairly cheap tripod.. Now using a serious telescope to do the imaging will give a MUCH better result, but what I'm trying to demonstrate is that pretty much anyone can do that sort of IR imaging on a VERY modest budget. The result is a bit fuzzy, but not that awful, and you'll note I did several things to verify the image.. Did Mr highwic or his friends do anything similar? Can you guess why not?

Do you think if I re-image it now, it will show that 2m mile corona?

[Tenshu]

Why 'scary'? How many people say these things, against how many people are on the planet? In what way are these people credible? Is it possible that some/many/all are pulling your chain, or are delusional and/or lacking in the ability to properly interpret images?

Probably my aspergers syndrome which causes me fear easily to things that could threaten my life.


And most importantly, do you think you will get a correct and balanced view of these topics if you go looking for this stuff? What methods do you personally use, to verify what you are told? If you rely on others who are more knowledgeable on a topic, do you think you will find them at conspiracy forums, or on Youtube? How much time have you spent on genuine science/astronomy forums/sites?

I don't know most astronomy sites besides this one, and I sometimes feel like i don't belong here with how scientific most of the people here are.


I suggest you ask these folks, eg Mr 'highwic', with their allegedly IR-capable binoculars and telescopes, to give details of the equipment (in particular the IR methodology used), and to post images including background stars and other verification (locations, dates and times). Also, make sure they show a KNOWN object like Venus or even a distant streetlamp! and that they show what happens when they defocus, zoom back..

In other words, just ask them to properly elaborate on their 'discoveries' as an astronomer would, and to verify the quality of their equipment on known objects.

I'm betting the only sound you will then hear is them scuttling for cover, and looking for the next naive soul to impress/fool... But if you CAN find what you think is a decent, well-put-together illustration of something weird/unidentified/scary, by all means come on back and post the *details*, with all that supporting stuff.

Without it, YT videos/comments and other unsupported claims are worth even less than what you just paid for them...

You have a good point there, another person who does the same thing won't tell anyone of how he got his finding's and this person seems closeminded.


And if you are not up to this, by all means give me a few more details on this highwic character, and I'll do it! :) His name didn't come up on a YT search, and I'm not going to search through nibiru nonsense.

http://www.youtube.com/user/highwic

If you insist this is his page, if you scroll down you'll notice he's got several video comments for supposed nibiru/wormwood videos listed.


And finally, may I suggest YOU join an astronomy club, and go find out what *really* happens - ask them to show you Jupiter, and how they might use IR *properly*.. You'll begin to discover the sky is full of wonder, not fear. You'll also be amazed at the standard of equipment that hundreds of thousands of amateur astronomers use, and yet none of them (the real ones) are talking about this nonsense, except to debunk it.

I live in groves texas, a small community that has no such club, if thier were one believe me i would join it in a heartbeat because I seek the truth and not fear.

Edit:May as well add this too, another video on youtube claming Nibiru is real, but this one is based off google sky.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKn_2neBSyo

and I am going to put my foot down on this video, my name is Dann963 on youtube.

[chrlzs]

Probably my aspergers syndrome which causes me fear easily to things that could threaten my life.

I can relate to that (family members) - and I admire you greatly for letting us know.



I don't know most astronomy sites besides this one, and I sometimes feel like i don't belong here with how scientific most of the people here are.


I think I can speak on behalf of the board, that you are most welcome here, as long as you don't just post lots of youtube links! (see below)

I'm not a qualified scientist, but I work with them, and they are generally a very likable lot. I particularly like the way they think.. :)



You have a good point there, another person who does the same thing won't tell anyone of how he got his finding's and this person seems closeminded.


If nothing else, I hope you keep that thought close handy whenever you are seeing people claiming scary things. Remember that a lot of people LIKE scaring others, and either deliberately or (less often) accidentally, they will take advantage of people's lack of knowledge.

There is no shame in not knowing stuff. Hereabouts, just ask nicely! But when someone makes a claim, look at what evidence they provide, and whether they are happy to discuss how they arrived at their conclusion, how much they actually know about their topic, what methods they used, how they react to being shown to be in error.. . Ask me those questions (especially about photography), and I won't shut up! If I am ever shown to be in error (thankfully that is extremely rare! :lol: ), I enjoy it, because it means I learnt something!!! Also, I'll happily demonstrate my points with examples, references, you name it.

Do you see highwic and his band of friends doing any of that? I took one look at highwic's page, and left. The comments he has made are simply ridiculous. He doesn't even know his own sky, and he hasn't posted anything of his own - surely if he had all this wonderful equipment, he would show the results? No, instead he just runs around commenting on other hysterical videos and talking them up, and then making up stories about what he *claims* to be seeing..

Seriously, Tenshu, if you spend your life following those sort of people around, you will scare yourself (and any progeny or family you may have), into an early grave.

Don't hang around the gutters of the Internet!!!



I live in groves texas, a small community that has no such club, if thier were one believe me i would join it in a heartbeat because I seek the truth and not fear.


Oh, come on, you haven't even tried! Here you go, "second
Friday of each month at 7:00 pm at Odom Academy in Beaumont TX". If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty dang close to you - but correct me if I'm wrong.
http://www.asset-astronomer.org/

If not that one, then look here:
http://www.astronomyclubs.com/1/190/45/0/club.aspx

Gotta be something suitable there.



Edit:May as well add this too, another video on youtube claming Nibiru is real, but this one is based off google sky.


Nope, stop right there!! You can't spend the rest of your time here posting youtube links - there are just enough crazy people out there to keep you supplied for a loong time. But for each of these, there is a rational explanation, and it has almost certainly been dealt with on this very forum, if not a hundred other places. If you must look at every new scary video, YOU need to also spend at least the same amount of time looking up what other sites have to say on the topic. NOT conspiracy sites. Science and astronomy sites.

I'm not going to check out that video, unless you show me that you have done all the required homework. In fact I'll lay a sizable bet that I know EXACTLY which Google sky anomaly is being referred to, and also EXACTLY what caused it, and when. But if I tell you it will just encourage you to do the wrong thing, and simply move onto the next video...

You need to do the hard yards. In fact I offer you a challenge, find your very favorite scary video, then do everything in your power to determine what the truth is (and also what other potential explanations there are). Not by asking us, but by you doing the research. Have a go. It's invigorating once you get the hang of it! Bring it back here then, along with all your carefully considered comments. If you do it even half-well, you will suddenly find your reception here improves dramatically!

I've already given you some clues. Google is just the start. In terms of videos, ask yourself - what else could this be? What else could cause those optical effects? Where did this footage come from? Why might some data be missing? How much does the person know:
- about photography?
- about astronomy?
- about science in general, and the 'scientific method'?

If you don't know what the scientific method is, look it up, and then think about whether those youtubers are using any of it. You could even start by taking a look at my other videos, and start becoming familiar with the sort of optical issues that many of these people use.

If you need more clues, eg a step by step example of how I/we would go about investigating a video, then ask away.

Anyway, back to you, Tenshu. As I said, I can truly relate to your situation, and if you wish to discuss any of this stuff off the forum, send me a PM. I'm happy to try to help you out, but... don't expect me to make it easy for you!

[Tenshu]

I can relate to that (family members) - and I admire you greatly for letting us know.

Thanks abunch.


I think I can speak on behalf of the board, that you are most welcome here, as long as you don't just post lots of youtube links! (see below)

I'm not a qualified scientist, but I work with them, and they are generally a very likable lot. I particularly like the way they think.. :)

Don't worry, i'll try to quit posting youtube things, besides i put my foot down in that second one i posted.


If nothing else, I hope you keep that thought close handy whenever you are seeing people claiming scary things. Remember that a lot of people LIKE scaring others, and either deliberately or (less often) accidentally, they will take advantage of people's lack of knowledge.

There is no shame in not knowing stuff. Hereabouts, just ask nicely! But when someone makes a claim, look at what evidence they provide, and whether they are happy to discuss how they arrived at their conclusion, how much they actually know about their topic, what methods they used, how they react to being shown to be in error.. . Ask me those questions (especially about photography), and I won't shut up! If I am ever shown to be in error (thankfully that is extremely rare! :lol: ), I enjoy it, because it means I learnt something!!! Also, I'll happily demonstrate my points with examples, references, you name it.

You sound like a cool person you know that.


Do you see highwic and his band of friends doing any of that? I took one look at highwic's page, and left. The comments he has made are simply ridiculous. He doesn't even know his own sky, and he hasn't posted anything of his own - surely if he had all this wonderful equipment, he would show the results? No, instead he just runs around commenting on other hysterical videos and talking them up, and then making up stories about what he *claims* to be seeing..

I think the term closeminded suits him alot better because even some of my youtube buddies who study the sky point it out to him and he still doesn't listen.


Seriously, Tenshu, if you spend your life following those sort of people around, you will scare yourself (and any progeny or family you may have), into an early grave.

Don't hang around the gutters of the Internet!!!

I know,thanks for the encouragement.


Oh, come on, you haven't even tried! Here you go, "second
Friday of each month at 7:00 pm at Odom Academy in Beaumont TX". If I'm not mistaken, that's pretty dang close to you - but correct me if I'm wrong.
http://www.asset-astronomer.org/

If not that one, then look here:
http://www.astronomyclubs.com/1/190/45/0/club.aspx

Gotta be something suitable there.

This might sound embarrising, but depsite coming up on twenty five, I can't drive that far away from my house, i can drive to close towns yes but beaumont is a different story, mostly due to how crazy the traffic is and such and i'm afraid of hitting someone, or the other way around.


Nope, stop right there!! You can't spend the rest of your time here posting youtube links - there are just enough crazy people out there to keep you supplied for a loong time. But for each of these, there is a rational explanation, and it has almost certainly been dealt with on this very forum, if not a hundred other places. If you must look at every new scary video, YOU need to also spend at least the same amount of time looking up what other sites have to say on the topic. NOT conspiracy sites. Science and astronomy sites.

I'm not going to check out that video, unless you show me that you have done all the required homework. In fact I'll lay a sizable bet that I know EXACTLY which Google sky anomaly is being referred to, and also EXACTLY what caused it, and when. But if I tell you it will just encourage you to do the wrong thing, and simply move onto the next video...

What's to move onto, the description of said video said the data was the EXACT same as it was two years ago, that alone made me think. "Ok so if it was coming at us, wouldn't the coordinates be different?" so I stated clearly that it was fake after seeing that text alone.


You need to do the hard yards. In fact I offer you a challenge, find your very favorite scary video, then do everything in your power to determine what the truth is (and also what other potential explanations there are). Not by asking us, but by you doing the research. Have a go. It's invigorating once you get the hang of it! Bring it back here then, along with all your carefully considered comments. If you do it even half-well, you will suddenly find your reception here improves dramatically!

I've already given you some clues. Google is just the start. In terms of videos, ask yourself - what else could this be? What else could cause those optical effects? Where did this footage come from? Why might some data be missing? How much does the person know:
- about photography?
- about astronomy?
- about science in general, and the 'scientific method'?

To be honest it's not really the videos's that scare me most of the time, it's the comments left by people that scare me, half because they intimidate me, and half because i worry about these people who seem intent on throwing away thier lives to believe in nonsense.


If you don't know what the scientific method is, look it up, and then think about whether those youtubers are using any of it. You could even start by taking a look at my other videos, and start becoming familiar with the sort of optical issues that many of these people use.

If you need more clues, eg a step by step example of how I/we would go about investigating a video, then ask away.

Anyway, back to you, Tenshu. As I said, I can truly relate to your situation, and if you wish to discuss any of this stuff off the forum, send me a PM. I'm happy to try to help you out, but... don't expect me to make it easy for you!

Alright, thank you man for all your encouragement, i very much appreaciate it and feel lots better now than i did before, thank you so much.

[chrlzs]

Thanks abunch.
You sound like a cool person you know that.

Thanks abunch, back. :)



..I can't drive that far away from my house, i can drive to close towns yes but beaumont is a different story, mostly due to how crazy the traffic is and such and i'm afraid of hitting someone, or the other way around.

Understood, but maybe you could find another way, get someone to take you? Maybe write to them and ask if any of their members with portable equipment would like to hold a little sky night at your place? Yes, I'm serious!




What's to move onto, the description of said video said the data was the EXACT same as it was two years ago, that alone made me think. "Ok so if it was coming at us, wouldn't the coordinates be different?" so I stated clearly that it was fake after seeing that text alone.

Excellent work!!! That's the sort of thing!



To be honest it's not really the videos's that scare me most of the time, it's the comments left by people that scare me, half because they intimidate me, and half because i worry about these people who seem intent on throwing away thier lives to believe in nonsense.

You nailed it there, Tenshu. The most distressing thing I have ever seen in amongst all this stuff, was a page that showed a whole pile of emails from the followers of a certain 'Nancy', that were sent shortly before her failed end-of-world prediction (one of many) several years back. Some of the emails talked about how they had told their children, and that they cried but promised to be brave... That made me feel sick to my stomach - you have to wonder what damage was done to those innocents. Scaring people is NOT harmless.



Alright, thank you man for all your encouragement, i very much appreaciate it and feel lots better now than i did before, thank you so much.


Cheers, mate. Good luck with your future application of healthy doses of skepticism!

[DippyHippy]

Was that "Nancy" the same mad nun who predicted that the planet Jupiter would explode when Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit it in 1994?

[chrlzs]

Was that "Nancy" the same mad nun who predicted that the planet Jupiter would explode when Shoemaker-Levy 9 hit it in 1994?

Possibly/probably - she latches onto just about anything that might be potential 'evidence' for her stories. I was referring to 'Nancy Lieder', who (in a nutshell..) believes that she was chosen to be an ambassador/channeler for a race of aliens, on the basis of finding one inexplicably unwrapped Starburst candy (I kid you not).

Her little alien friends told her that the world would be placed into upheaval, if not destroyed by PlanetX/Nibiru, way back in the summer of 2003, and she had to get out there and tell everyone "The Sky Is Falling".. When the summer of 2003 passed and this didn't occur, she extended the date a few times, and explained that it was all a deliberate lie to teach us a lesson, blah blah..

But in the meantime, she had euthanased her dog to save it from the terrible days ahead and convinced enough naive folk for this sort of email traffic to exist:

http://www.skepticalmind.com/personal_stories.html

I wonder how those families got their act together afterwards, and how much damage was done to those youngsters? I show that page to anyone who implies that fear-mongering is relatively victimless..

[danscope]

Brought to you by " The Fearmonger's Shoppe ".
In the Dales, Riverdale, Teasedale,Mondale, Lonsdale,Hopedale, Roy n Dale,
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