We're not the only ones fighting 2012 nonsense

[Swift]

From SFgate.com (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/c/a/2009/10/11/MN0D1A1RL9.DTL&type=science)

Apolinario Chile Pixtun is tired of being bombarded with frantic questions about the Mayan calendar supposedly "running out" on Dec. 21, 2012. After all, it's not the end of the world.

Or is it?

Definitely not, the Mayan Indian elder insists. "I came back from England last year and, man, they had me fed up with this stuff."

It can only get worse for him. Next month Hollywood's "2012" opens in cinemas, featuring earthquakes, meteor showers and a tsunami dumping an aircraft carrier on the White House.

At Cornell University, Ann Martin, who runs the "Curious? Ask an Astronomer" Web site, says people are scared.

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die," Martin said. "We had a mother of two young children who was afraid she wouldn't live to see them grow up."

And later in the article, our own BA gets quoted:

That will happen on Dec. 21, 2012, when the sun appears to rise in the same spot where the bright center of galaxy sets.

Another spooky coincidence?

"The question I would ask these guys is, so what?" says Phil Plait, an astronomer who runs the "Bad Astronomy" blog. He says the alignment doesn't fall precisely in 2012, and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

[Noclevername]

...and distant stars exert no force that could harm Earth.

Well, except a hypernova, technically, but we'd see that coming. And there's no sign from the only nearby star that looks like a cadidate for one.

[geonuc]

Counternitpick:

He said distant stars, not nearby ones.

[KaiYeves]

"It's too bad that we're getting e-mails from fourth-graders who are saying that they're too young to die,"
Okay, am I the only one who thinks that statement is just WRONG? As in should not exist totally and completely WRONG?

[Ara Pacis]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks that statement is just WRONG? As in should not exist totally and completely WRONG?

We should be teaching stoicism in elementary schools? On the other hand, I remember going onto the playground at recess in 4th grade and proclaiming, "today is a good day to die". :)

I wonder if he pres and other world leaders will have to go on TV to calm people down in 3 years.

[KaiYeves]

We should be teaching stoicism in elementary schools?
No, I mean a 4th grader thinking they're going to die before they get much older no matter what they do is just WRONG.

I liked 4th grade. I read Harry Potter and drew cartoons about secret agents and ran around with my friends playing Sailor Moon. I was happy. It was simple, it was good. To imagine myself or any of my friends at that age consumed by apocalyptic dread is awful.

[Frog march]

well, growing up in the 70s and 80s there was always the third world nuclear war to look forward to.

[danscope]

Yes folks it's 2012 scare!
Brought to you by the Fear Monger's Shop .... in the dales, Teasedale,
Roy n Dale, Beer and Dale, Lonsdale, Hopedale, Mondale and all the other
shopping centers.

[Scamp]

On the other hand however, it's always nice to see a bit of Woo with a built in expiration date.

[Arnold Layne]

On the other hand however, it's always nice to see a bit of Woo with a built in expiration date.

Like library books, they can be renewed :(

[Hungry4info]

Random thought. I fear that once 2012 has passed, we may switch from disproving that the 2012 apocalypse will happen, to disproving that it has happened.

"They tell us that Dec 21, 2012 has already passed so it's impossible for us all to die then. But it's actually not even 1950. The Government has changed all the calenders to make it look like the threat has gone away. Nibiru never just conveniently goes away....."

[Torsten]

And not a one of them remembers May 5, 2000.

[KaiYeves]

"They tell us that Dec 21, 2012 has already passed so it's impossible for us all to die then. But it's actually not even 1950. The Government has changed all the calenders to make it look like the threat has gone away. Nibiru never just conveniently goes away....."
That statement is mind-numbingly stupid.

[Tuckerfan]

And not a one of them remembers May 5, 2000.

Or that date in 1997/99 that Ed Dames predicted the world would end because of Hale-Bopp or something or other.

[ShadowSot]

Nibiru was supposed to have come around in 2003. Ended with folks being arrested after selling all of their stuff and trying to set up a village in a national park.

[Tuckerfan]

Nibiru was supposed to have come around in 2003. Ended with folks being arrested after selling all of their stuff and trying to set up a village in a national park.

Hey, it worked for the 7th Day Adventists! (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/7th_Day_Adventist#History) :D

[01101001]

Astronomical Society of the Pacific: Doomsday 2012, the Planet Nibiru, and Cosmophobia (http://www.astrosociety.org/2012/ab2009-32.pdf) (PDF)


Stories about the fictional planet Nibiru and predictions
of doomsday in December 2012 have blossomed on the Internet. As of this June, there were more than 175 books listed on Amazon dealing with the 2012 doomsday. As this hoax spreads, many more disaster scenarios are being suggested. “Ask an Astrobiologist” has received nearly a thousand questions
about Nibiru and 2012, with more than 200 answers posted. Here are a few of the most popular questions and answers. See: http://astrobiology.nasa.gov/ask-an-astrobiologist/ for the full set of 20 top questions.


Resources for Further Information:

Morrison, David “The Myth of [the planet] Nibiru and the End of the World in 2012” (from Skeptical Inquirer Magazine):
http://www.csicop.org/si/show/myth_of_nibiru_and_the_end_of_the_world_in_2012/

There is a good discussion of IRAS results and Planet X from Caltech to be found at:
http://spider.ipac.caltech.edu/staff/tchester/iras/no_tenth_planet_yet.html

Neil de Grassse Tyson has posted a nice video clip on the Nibiru-2012 issue:
http://fora.tv/2009/02/04/Neil_deGrasse_Tyson_Pluto_Files#Neil_deGrasse_Tyso n_World_Will_Not_End_in_2012

For a detailed description of the origin of the Planet X/ Nibiru cult see the discussion by Phil Plait on his
BadAstronomy website:
http://www.badastronomy.com/bad/misc/planetx/


===

And with so many appearances of the string 2012, this topic is bound to attract worried searchers, so here's the list.

Here are some articles about the many aspects of the year 2012 predictions, and a long, long list of some BAUT Forum topics that have addressed the topic:


Universe Today: No Doomsday in 2012 (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/19/no-doomsday-in-2012/)
Bad Astronomy Blog: 2012, the year nothing will happen (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2008/05/19/2012-the-year-nothing-will-happen/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Planet X (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/05/25/2012-no-planet-x/)
Universe Today: 2012: Planet X is not Nibiru (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/19/2012-planet-x-is-not-nibiru/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Killer Solar Flare (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/06/21/2012-no-killer-solar-flare/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Geomagnetic Reversal (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/10/03/2012-no-geomagnetic-reversal/)
Universe Today: 2012: No Comet (http://www.universetoday.com/2008/12/21/2012-no-comet/)
Universe Today: Another Voice Against 2012 Mania (http://www.universetoday.com/2009/02/15/another-voice-against-2012-mania/)
Universe Today: 2012: Combat the Nonsense (http://www.universetoday.com/2009/10/14/2012-combat-the-nonsense/)
Astronomical Society of the Pacific: Doomsday 2012, the Planet Nibiru, and Cosmophobia (http://www.astrosociety.org/2012/ab2009-32.pdf) (PDF)
NASA FAQ: 2012: Beginning of the End or Why the World Won't End? (http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html)



2003 no, 2012 si (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03179)
2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=03181)
End of Mayan Calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=04509)
Pole shift / Planetary alignment 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=07145)
2012 alignment question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=09421)
about the Mayan 2012 item (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10214)
2012 Debunking? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10724)
Possible asteroid impact in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=10924)
2012 asteroid? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=13592)
We don't have to worry about 2012! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16490)
More on 2012 from India Daily (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=16709)
2012 Completion of conspiracy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=17667)
Here's what's REALLY going to happen in 2012... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18322)
crop circles, Planet X and 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18375)
Planet X, crop circles and 2012 cataclysma (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18378)
According to the Mayans, what will happen on 23rd Dec. 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=18757)
More 2012 Nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=19201)
NEO 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20191)
Dangerous NEO in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=20539)
Christmas 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=23941)
2012 mayan calender end of world (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=30892)
Regarding the supposed polar shift/new ice age in 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=31452)
New 2012 threat? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=32413)
2012 look at this thing on the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=35462)
Russian Expert Predicts Global Cooling from 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=38978)
Pole shift idea origins (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=43775)
Dec 20 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=46117)
2012 Stuff (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=51021)
No reply previous question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=52297)
Horizon Project-New End of World Scare? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53788)
Date: December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53831)
Earth passing thru Galactic center in 2012 - didn't that already happen? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53904)
2012: What do you think well happen (if anything) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=53924)
So what will we see in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54404)
Galactic Tsunami? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=54418)
Plane of the ecliptic of the galaxy? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55312)
Earth's Magnetic Field & 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=55386)
2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=56513)
Any truth to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=58039)
How can the sun be aligned with Galactic centre? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63109)
the whole 2012 poles flip nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=63449)
Planet X Official Advertisement (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=65831)
What year are we in (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66055)
Quick question about the sun (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66221)
Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=66414)
Books of 2012! - (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67663)
2007 = 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67908)
Return of Planet X By Rand (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67948)
Don Alejandro - Mayan Elder. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=67954)
Toutatis 4179: 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68472)
Galactic Alignment in 2012 ? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68661)
Solar Storms (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=68907)
A real prediction! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=69448)
NIBURU - Brown Dwarf, The DESTROYER (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70163)
2012 Galactic Alignment (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70260)
Not 2012 again! But I cant help it~ (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70438)
New evidence for 2012 TEOTWAWKI!!! (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=70795)
this may be a silly question but... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71061)
Just to know if this is true (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71216)
Just Wondering... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=71633)
Planet X/Nibiru, is it real? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72398)
Youv heard this a million times. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=72777)
Nibaru or Planet X (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73180)
Mayan calendar (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73414)
2012 Article? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73492)
can i say something please on planet x (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73579)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=73654)
The growing earth.... :P (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74164)
Our Solar System's Eclipse of the Galactic Plane on Dec 21, 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74615)
Something scaring the hell out of me.... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=74881)
It's Only the end of the World AGAIN!!! (Woo Woo Alert) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=76346)
2021 Doomsday (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77802)
is it just me or is the milky way brighter..? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=77955)
Polar Shift in 2012? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78219)
I would like to ask about Nubiru stuff... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78719)
Bit behind the times, my appologies... (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=78966)
the "pole shift thing" (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79146)
All the Truth about 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79425)
Confused about 2012 (yes, another one!) (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=79817)
Another paranoia mind due to 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80144)
novelty theory (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=80949)
Possibility of Pole Shift (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81227)
2012 Vectors (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81304)
Nibiru Question (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=81363)
Odd things floating on google sky (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=82312)
2012 end of the world? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=86195)
2012 and Solar Storms? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=87388)
Nibiru (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=88006)
Sun polar shift weirdness. (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89521)
Question? [2012] (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=89525)
December 21st 2012 (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=91235)
2012 is giving me a Headache (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=92214)
UN Agenda 21 and the coming pole reversal scare (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=92451)
Space storm alert: 90 seconds from catastrophe (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=93709)
Is there even something to this? (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=94538)
We're not the only ones fighting 2012 nonsense (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?t=94834)

[Lone Wolf]

well, growing up in the 70s and 80s there was always the third world nuclear war to look forward to.

Did I miss the First and Second Nuclear Wars? :confused:
:whistle:Who won?

[KaiYeves]

Everybody.

[Strange]

No, I mean a 4th grader thinking they're going to die before they get much older no matter what they do is just WRONG

I'm not quite sure what 4th grade is, but I'm pretty sure I was younger than that when I thought we were all going to die when the whole Bay of Pigs thing kicked off.

[Nowhere Man]

In the US, fourth grade is the school year that you start when you're about 10. You start kindergarten at around 5, then grades 1 through 12 (usually), then college (sometimes).

Fred

[Gillianren]

I'm not quite sure what 4th grade is, but I'm pretty sure I was younger than that when I thought we were all going to die when the whole Bay of Pigs thing kicked off.

I was terrified of nuclear war when I was a child--probably one of the youngest people to be so. That still doesn't make it right.

[Tuckerfan]

I was terrified of nuclear war when I was a child--probably one of the youngest people to be so. That still doesn't make it right.

Heh, I still remember that morning I woke up in high school to hearing then-President Ronald Reagan say, "My fellow Americans, I'm pleased to announced that I have just signed into law legislation making Russia illegal. We begin bombing in 5 minutes." I kept waiting for the air raid sirens while I hid under the covers (later, I realized that I'd been "had" and reluctantly got ready for school).

[danscope]

I was terrified of nuclear war when I was a child--probably one of the youngest people to be so. That still doesn't make it right.

Yes... remember" Duck and cover ! " ? Yes, we used to do that for drill.
Makes for nice dreams.

Dan

[KaiYeves]

Should I feel glad that I was born in the 90s and got nine years of relative peace or sad because then I had to watch it all go downhill?

[TJMac]

I remember, from the mid 60's on, the constant stream of information about how many nukes "We" (United States) had, vs, "Them",(USSR). A kid has no idea whether to be pleased that we had more of one type weapon, or terrified that we had less of another.

For decades we were constantly told how the Doomsday Clock, (is that what it was called?) was steadily moving toward midnight, at which point it was all over except for the radiation resistant cockroaches. After long enough, you just kind of forget about how serious it is, and go on living life.

TJ

[EricFD]

Did I miss the First and Second Nuclear Wars? :confused:
:whistle:Who won?

LOL Lone Wolf! I think he meant the first two "World Wars". ;)

Eric

[EricFD]

I remember, from the mid 60's on, the constant stream of information about how many nukes "We" (United States) had, vs, "Them",(USSR). A kid has no idea whether to be pleased that we had more of one type weapon, or terrified that we had less of another.

For decades we were constantly told how the Doomsday Clock, (is that what it was called?) was steadily moving toward midnight, at which point it was all over except for the radiation resistant cockroaches. After long enough, you just kind of forget about how serious it is, and go on living life.

TJ

The funny thing is the "Doomsday Clock" is still ticking so to speak and the US and Russia both still have nuclear arsenals large enough to destroy the world several times over. It's just no one ever thinks about it anymore.

[EricFD]

Okay, am I the only one who thinks that statement is just WRONG? As in should not exist totally and completely WRONG?

No, you're not, KaiYeves. But let's face it, most people throughout the ages have been guided by fear, ignorance and superstition. Despite all of our wonderful science and technology today, most people are still living in the Dark Ages. What are you going to do?

Eric

[Gillianren]

Yes... remember" Duck and cover ! " ? Yes, we used to do that for drill.
Makes for nice dreams.

We had an air raid drill when I was in seventh grade, I think. Which would have made it, what, 1990 or so. This consisted of the whole school sitting in the hallway demanding to know what the point of all this was, including the teachers.

[CJSF]

I keep hearing from my peers, over and over, about their dread at the prospect of nuclear war in the 1980s.

Personally, myself and my family and almost everyone I knew, didn't seem particulary worried about it. I certainly never experienced any fear over it, even when "The Day After" aired.

I feel like I lived in a parallel universe in the '80s or something.

Whenever it was discussed or read about, we sort of just assumed it wasn't likely, and if it did happen, we'd be dead in a instant anyway (given our proximity to a major metropolitan area).

CJSF

[Gillianren]

My freshman year in high school (the '91-'92 school year), my history teacher told us exactly how many nuclear weapons were targeting our area, one only a few miles away to JPL. This did not make me notably less scared, actually.

[Swift]

Growing up in the 60s and 70s, I will say nuclear war was a fear of mine, to the point of occasional sleepless nights as a teenager. Certainly things like "The Day After" and the book "Warday" added to that.

I'm not sure that is quite the same as a fear of 21 December 2012. Nuclear war was a real possibility (still is). We got pretty close a couple of times (Cuban Missile Crisis). The 2012 stuff is completely evidence free.

[KaiYeves]

So it's normal for 4th graders to feel apocalyptic dread and people like me who were 4th graders in the 90s are just an anomaly?

[Swift]

So it's normal for 4th graders to feel apocalyptic dread and people like me who were 4th graders in the 90s are just an anomaly?
I have little clue as to what is "normal", but I'm fairly sure it is a broad distribution. ;)

I think, as one transitions from childhood to adulthood, and becomes much more aware of the real world, that it is fairly common to start realizing that there are real bad things out there, that we are mortal, and that mom and dad can't fix everything. Depending upon the person, I certainly think this can lead to varying degrees of apprehension and worry.

I'm not saying that worrying about nuclear war was a good thing. But it actually was based on some level of real threat, as opposed to the 2012 stuff, which is based on nonsense.

[Gillianren]

And, of course, not every kid had the same level of fear. Few of my own classmates did, for example; to a lot of them, it was pretty far removed. Then again, my mother did watch the news every night. I was significantly more exposed to that evidence.

[LaurelHS]

I'm not quite sure what 4th grade is, but I'm pretty sure I was younger than that when I thought we were all going to die when the whole Bay of Pigs thing kicked off.
I was frightened by the Persian Gulf War when I was in 4th grade (or maybe it was 5th grade, I'm not sure). Of course I wasn't in any danger, but children don't always have the best perspective on these things.

[Starfury]

And not a one of them remembers May 5, 2000.

Exactly. Nothing bad happened, although I recall that I went through that day...how to put this...with a highly elevated need for immediate female companionship (know what I mean, say no more, wink, wink, nudge, nudge).

Moreso than usual I mean. And Phil said the planetary alignment wouldn't affect us. :lol:

[Cruithne3753]

I think the first planetary body discovered in 2013 should be officially named "Nibiru" just to rub the salt in...

[slang]

I think the first planetary body discovered in 2013 should be officially named "Nibiru" just to rub the salt in...

Hah! Love it. Permission to add to signature, sir? :)

[Cruithne3753]

Hah! Love it. Permission to add to signature, sir? :)

Fine. No problemo.

[publiusr]

And everybody knows the black Hole IBEX found isn't due to hit until 2052 anyway ;)

[Ilya]

Yes... remember" Duck and cover ! " ? Yes, we used to do that for drill.
Makes for nice dreams.

I always thought that people who deride "duck and cover" as an absurdity are, not to put a fine point on it, idiots. Any nuclear explosion has a completely lethal radius, but outside it there is a vast area where blast and radiation dissipated enough to be survivable, but heat radiation will still kill anyone exposed. In that vast area you have good chance of surviving if you QUICKLY place yourself behind some solid barrier, in other words... duck and cover! Whereas anyone who just sits there (or runs around hysterically) because he is convinced he is going to die... will.

[Gillianren]

But in quite a lot of places, "duck and cover" is absurd.

[Tuckerfan]

I always thought that people who deride "duck and cover" as an absurdity are, not to put a fine point on it, idiots. Any nuclear explosion has a completely lethal radius, but outside it there is a vast area where blast and radiation dissipated enough to be survivable, but heat radiation will still kill anyone exposed. In that vast area you have good chance of surviving if you QUICKLY place yourself behind some solid barrier, in other words... duck and cover! Whereas anyone who just sits there (or runs around hysterically) because he is convinced he is going to die... will.

So, half the planet gets turned to slag, but because you hid under your desk, you're alive. Unlike many of your friends and relatives. You've no idea of when you can expect help to show up (or at all), no idea if/when basic services will be restored. This is a good thing?

[01101001]

I always thought that people who deride "duck and cover" as an absurdity are, not to put a fine point on it, idiots.

I want to go plasma.

[danscope]

I always thought that people who deride "duck and cover" as an absurdity are, not to put a fine point on it, idiots. Any nuclear explosion has a completely lethal radius, but outside it there is a vast area where blast and radiation dissipated enough to be survivable, but heat radiation will still kill anyone exposed. In that vast area you have good chance of surviving if you QUICKLY place yourself behind some solid barrier, in other words... duck and cover! Whereas anyone who just sits there (or runs around hysterically) because he is convinced he is going to die... will.

I agree with you. But even the authorities agreed that the psychological scarring accomplished by the program was doing more damage...ie
'The russians are coming...adnauseum'.
And yes, if I have 15 minutes notice, I should take what cover I can.
Balance and horse sense.

Best regards,
Dan

[Ilya]

So, half the planet gets turned to slag, but because you hid under your desk, you're alive. Unlike many of your friends and relatives. You've no idea of when you can expect help to show up (or at all), no idea if/when basic services will be restored. This is a good thing?
No, but it beats the alternative. Some people prefer dying to suffering. I firmly belive is surviving if at all possible.

A reported once asked Buzz Aldrin "What would you have done if the engine on Lunar Ascent Module failed to fire?" He expected an answer along the lines "which last words and to whom". Aldrin's answer was "Work like hell to fix it, right up until our air ran out." Never give up, in other words. Which is exactly my sentiments.

Remember the scene in first "Terminator" movie where a ragged band of survivors is huddling in some cave or basement, hiding from hunter-killer robots and eating rats? At that scene a friend of mine asked "If the whole planet is like that, what's the point of surviving?" My response was "It does not look any worse than Soviet gulag, and people had survived that for decades." To me, it's just natural and obvious. I suppose to others it is not.

[Gillianren]

My response was "It does not look any worse than Soviet gulag, and people had survived that for decades."

What a strange perception you have of the gulags. Besides, it's not as though the people who just managed to avoid death from the heat would exactly live happy, healthy lives thereafter.

[HenrikOlsen]

No, but perhaps their children or their children's children could, if they worked hard enough.

Which has been a good enough reason to plug on for lots of people for lots of years.

[Swift]

A friendly moderator suggestion... This thread seems to be going off topic into topics that have nothing to do with 2012. I suggest we stick to 2012 and fighting that nonsense. Thanks

[Gillianren]

No, but perhaps their children or their children's children could, if they worked hard enough.

It's hard to when you die of radiation poisoning.

Which, you know, makes me wonder what the point of trying to rescue people in the dreadful 2012 is, given how horrible conditions appear to be. After all, don't the Mayans believe the world is going to be destroyed? How do you save people from that?

[danscope]

" But.... the picture's faded. "
" Of course it is. Your future hasn't been written yet, So.......
make it a good one."
Sage advice from Dr. Emmet Brown, inventor and philosopher extroadinaire.

Don't let anyone tell you that your future is already finished. Those hucksters have been around for years. If they were so smart, they'd be rich.
They have an incredibly large credibility gap.

Best regards,
Dan

[One Skunk Todd]

I want to go plasma.

Me too but I had to settle for LCD. :P

It's probably been said in another thread but maybe the depth and breadth of the credulity surrounding the 2012 nonsense is not actually a bad thing. Maybe we can hope that all those suckered by this nonsense will be so angry when the sun comes up on the 22nd that they'll be less gullible in the future. I realize that's probably a forlorn hope, but it's a hope nevertheless.

As long as I'm indulging my hopes maybe we could get a law passed that everyone who wasn't taken in gets issued a heavy wood cudgel embossed with "2012" in reversed characters and free rein to soundly thrash anybody who starts blathering about Nibiru and 2015 or whatever the next end date will be. :)

Re: Duck and Cover, watch Barefoot Gen sometime.

ETA: If you do watch Barefoot Gen be sure and have something light and fun to do afterwards. Seriously.

[DippyHippy]

Sorry, haven't had time to read everyone's posts...

What's really sad is that you have people making critical life decisions - like, shall I have a child? - based upon whether the world will end in 2012. And other posters are right - it's not like this kind of hysteria hasn't happened before.

Joe Public has a very short memory. It was only ten years ago when civilisation was going back to the stone age because computers didn't know the difference between 1900 and 2000. And that was assuming Nostradamus's god of war didn't start WWIII sometime between July of 99 and the end of the year.

Of course, by that time we were just glad to be alive after Jupiter failed to explode in 1994, when comet Shoemaker-Levy hit it.

I also remember a "cosmic alignment" of the planets that was supposed to happen in the 80's. It was all the usual stuff: earthquakes, tsunamis, death, destruction, dogs and cats living together. You get the idea.

In 1910 some people made a very nice living out of selling gas masks and pills to everyone who thought they were going to die from Halley Comet poisoning.

And I wasn't alive at the time but I remember being taught about 1666, when everyone thought the Devil was going to ruin everything. Same for 999 AD, when farmers didn't plant crops because the world was going to end anyway.

Read the bible -and I mean no disrespect - but the early Christians (ie, up to 100 AD) were convinced the end times were coming in their lifetimes.

At the end of the day, everything is open to interpretation. I don't believe anything significant will happen in 2012.

2016 is another story. Apparently there's a big ol' comet that we haven't found yet that's going to smash the earth and everyone on it.

You have been warned.

[Jim]

Leave it to NonSequitur to set the record straight.
http://imgsrv.gocomics.com/dim/?fh=200ba49af5cc747714a308586877e697

[Swift]

Leave it to NonSequitur to set the record straight.
http://imgsrv.gocomics.com/dim/?fh=200ba49af5cc747714a308586877e697
:lol:

[Strange]

It was only ten years ago when civilisation was going back to the stone age because computers didn't know the difference between 1900 and 2000.

I can't let that go. You can't include this with the rest of the woo - this was a genuine problem that was avoided by a lot of people working very hard. So nothing bad happened. So the popular press said: see it was just hype. Sigh.

Actually the doomsday scenarios invented by the press were just hype, but we could have seen some big problems.

[KaiYeves]

2016 is another story. Apparently there's a big ol' comet that we haven't found yet that's going to smash the earth and everyone on it.
Are they moving on already now?

[DippyHippy]

RE Y2K... hmmmm... no. I remember people freaking out and it had everything to do with a lot of media scaremongering. The best I hoped for was that my flights home from the US would be delayed due to computer problems so I wouldn't have to go back to work on Monday.

If you think about it, there's a lot of similarities. A change in the calendar with no real evidence of anything serious happening and yet the media were all over it like a hot rash. I found it pretty amusing.

[HenrikOlsen]

Except that Y2K was a real problem that was mainly avoided because people fixed it in time, unfortunately totally overhyped by media.

Whereas 2012 is a modern fairytale about how the media are spinning a pile of manure into gold for themselves.

[DrRocket]

Except that Y2K was a real problem that was mainly avoided because people fixed it in time, unfortunately totally overhyped by media.

Whereas 2012 is a modern fairytale about how the media are spinning a pile of manure into gold for themselves.

As I have said elsewhere, those of you who thnk that 2012 will pass without a major disaster are just not looking at the calendar.

November 2, 2012 is a U.S. election day.

[DippyHippy]

ROFLMAO I guess the definition of "disaster" in that scenario really depends on who you're voting for and who wins :)

[Tucson_Tim]

If you want to see how seriously some people take this 2012 (and 2011) nonsense, go to this website and look around. You will be amazed at how people are preparing for these "disasters" and hoping they will be among the chosen few to survive.

http://2012forum.com/forum/

And this is just one forum like this. There are many, many others. It's sad, really - and a little bit scary that people are swayed so easily.

[DippyHippy]

That's what really worries me. I don't care that people are making money out of it. What scares me is that people genuinely believe that we are going to die at the end of that year and for that reason you have to wonder if some action should be taken against the scaremongers. But then, what can you do? They'll claim they have a right to express an opinion etc

[Tenshu]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UMaV1ekkxXs

It's just as bad on youtube these days, apparently this person claims whatever this is to be nibiru--

[KaiYeves]

That's what really worries me. I don't care that people are making money out of it. What scares me is that people genuinely believe that we are going to die at the end of that year and for that reason you have to wonder if some action should be taken against the scaremongers. But then, what can you do? They'll claim they have a right to express an opinion etc
I know. That's what I was saying earlier- people who genuinely believe that they're going to die is what scares me.

[SolusLupus]

If you want to see how seriously some people take this 2012 (and 2011) nonsense, go to this website and look around. You will be amazed at how people are preparing for these "disasters" and hoping they will be among the chosen few to survive.

http://2012forum.com/forum/

And this is just one forum like this. There are many, many others. It's sad, really - and a little bit scary that people are swayed so easily.

This thread was enlightening: http://2012forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=2631

[Tucson_Tim]

This thread was enlightening: http://2012forum.com/forum/viewtopic.php?f=61&t=2631

There's a thread over there asking if anyone is considering suicide, if you can believe that.

[Gillianren]

There's a thread over there asking if anyone is considering suicide, if you can believe that.

Oh, I can assuredly believe that. It happens to cults all the time. Also mentally ill people who aren't seeking treatment, and given the paranoia level over there from one brief glance, there's probably some of those as well, though by no means all of them.

[Tucson_Tim]

I learned one thing from that site (and I am trying to forget it): There is another religion-based end-of-the-world scenario that is going to "start" on May 21, 2011 with the world finally ending five months later on Oct 21, 2011, which preempts the Dec 2012 end-of-the-world by over a year.

[SolusLupus]

Hell, with all the hype over the LHC, there were some people that killed themselves (including a poor girl in India) because they thought it was the end of the world.

It's very very sad.

[DippyHippy]

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, aeroplanes... Lenny Bruce is not afraid... LOL

(Sorry... couldn't resist)

[Spoons]

Hell, with all the hype over the LHC, there were some people that killed themselves (including a poor girl in India) because they thought it was the end of the world.

That is shocking.

This is probably going to sound terribly cold, but if someone's answer to uncertainty is to kill themselves, how much is the world losing? I would expect there's more to it than that, and I'd hate to think someone used these people's actions to further their own cause.

It's all very sad. I think it's another sign that one of the most important things for the future is the teaching of critical thinking. Really - the world might end, so that's the solution?

If it is mental illness then that's another thing all together.

[SolusLupus]

This is probably going to sound terribly cold, but if someone's answer to uncertainty is to kill themselves, how much is the world losing?

A life.

[Swift]

That's great, it starts with an earthquake, birds and snakes, aeroplanes... Lenny Bruce is not afraid... LOL

(Sorry... couldn't resist)
And I feel fine. ;)

I suggested a long time ago that we make that the official song of the CT forum.

[KaiYeves]

A life.
And all the creations and connections and complexities that come with it.

[DippyHippy]

Some time back, I remember seeing a documentary about over-population and all the stresses that come with it. They did some very interesting experiments with rats - basically, they put them in an enclosed space and left them alone.

They were fine until they started running out of room and resources like food and water. Then they started acting in a very human like manner. A couple of things that stood out (if memory serves) is that they would fight and kill one another without reason and actually would die without any apparent reason. Like their own form of rat suicide, as though they just couldn't take it anymore. There were some other results but I can't remember for sure what they are now

[Spoons]

Does anyone know if these excessive and extreme reactions are happening more in the over-populated areas of the world?

I suppose generally in the world we are over-populated these days - were these sorts of things occurring as much in the past? For whatever reason I do expect that to be the case, but the thing is that with communication worldwide being so developed now we're bound to hear more about those occurrences - that doesn't necessarily mean they're actually happening more.

And I suppose it could be one of the natural progressions of society to decay, not necessarily tied strictly to population density.

It's an unfortunate, but very interesting, phenomenon.

ETA: If the name of that doco pops into your head I would be very interested.

[SolusLupus]

Suicide? Murder? People organizing themselves into "clans" and attacking each other, sometimes for little reason? Happen in the past?

Yes. Yes. And again, yes.

Feudal Japan was quite (in?)famous for its ritualized suicide, even, which is quite traditional.

Even Dante's Inferno goes into detail on what happens to "suicides"... so it's been around for quite a while in Europe. And Romeo and Juliet features it quite extensively.

In fact, I challenge you to name a time when stuff like this DIDN'T happen.

[Spoons]

Yes, I am fully aware it did occur, and maybe it was prevalent in certain cultures, but what I'm asking about is whether there appears to be a correlation between population and these forms of social sickness.

ETA: And yes, I know, even if that exists it's not necessarily a causation.

[SolusLupus]

From what I remember from my Sociology course, suicide more correlates to how "socialized" individuals are. People that don't function in society or get together with their family are more likely to kill themselves than not.

Perhaps overpopulation is an element. It sounds like it makes sense. But any justifications for it seem rather ad hoc.

ETA: To be fair, "squabbling over resources" explains most minor to major conflicts for the better part of Earth's history, so perhaps that qualifies.

[Spoons]

Makes sense.

Yeah, that last sentence is the crucial one. I agree 100% on that.

[DippyHippy]

You've raised some excellent points, Solus, and yes, on reflection, when you think about it, maybe we just hear more about it now simply because there are more people doing it. However, it might still equate to the same tiny percentage of the populous. Bear in mind, of course, that we hear about these things all the time because of the 24/7 media.

I do just want to raise one more point that I've since remembered - the incidences of infantcide amongst the rats also shot up. They were killing their young. Unfortunately that seems to be a news story I hear with frightening frequency nowadays.

[SolusLupus]

You've raised some excellent points, Solus, and yes, on reflection, when you think about it, maybe we just hear more about it now simply because there are more people doing it.

Well, also, increased media attention. It's unlikely you'd hear about a girl in India committing suicide while in, say, 1950s America. :)

It's the same thing that led people to assume that school shootings were happening with frightening frequency, when in fact they had been declining since the '80s (I believe), where incidences were surprisingly high. (Example: http://youthviolence.edschool.virginia.edu/violence-in-schools/school-shootings.html)

[Tuckerfan]

Apparently even cats are bothered by 2012 now. (http://twolumps.net/d/20091228.html)

[Orion's Fan]

Apparently even cats are bothered by 2012 now. (http://twolumps.net/d/20091228.html)

Awesome cartoon.

[KaiYeves]

Yes, that's a great comic.

Recently, I visited an exhibit called Beyond Belief at a museum in Massachusetts. It was created by an artist to teach people about mythology by presenting a fictional "Indiana Jones"- style professor's office, with things like Daedalus' wings and Medusa's head on display. (Medusa's head is crated up and you can only see it by looking at a mirror. A very clever touch.)

One of the displays in the "office" is a Mayan Long Count calendar with the "professor's" notes explaining the truth about the calendar scare, which I thought was very admirable. Well done, museum!

[DippyHippy]

LOL I remember having nightmares as a 14 year old in 1985 about nuclear war. In one, I dreamt I was standing in our town center but the layout looked different. Where there were roads in 1985 I dreamt of paved pedestrian areas.

Curiously, they later closed those roads to traffic, paved them over and pedestrianised them LOL

BTW, if you want to see a true depiction of nuclear war, watch the BBC's Threads. It makes The Day After look as realistic as a game of Monopoly compared to Trump's real estate empire.

[danscope]

Which museum in Massachusetts? Curious. :)

[KaiYeves]

Which museum in Massachusetts? Curious.
The Higgins Armory Museum (http://www.higgins.org/).

[danscope]

Thank You. The Higgins .... 20 miles away. Great place. :)

[Tenshu]

you know what I find to be rediculious nowadays is that people are trying to use Apohpis(or however it's spelled.) as a way to discredit NASA and other people who debunk all of the 2012 things.

[chrlzs]

Unless those 'people' are presenting credible information, then why should anyone give them further attention? Don't worry, be happy!

After all, there will always be a supply of folk who are:
- suspicious of any large organisation (gov't or otherwise)
- uneducated in the sciences
- excessively credulous
- emboldened by the anonymity of the InterWeb
- jokesters
- trolls
- sellers/promoters of dubious videos and books
- downright scammers
.. or some combination of the above. (I've left a few other possibilities out but you can fill in the gaps..)

Why, I place myself in some of those categories...!

Just keep clear of the worst of them, or if you must, matter-of-factly correct the misinformation and move on quickly.

[danscope]

Well, they DO discount or ignore the good education they were given and thrive on bunk. That is the operative nomenclature. Bunk has always been with us, but it has acquired the anonyminity of the internet to try to gain traction. They slide down the drain and are replaced by the light of day.