Banned Books Week

[Gillianren]

It's that time again! Time to look at the great literature--and just kind of neat stuff--suppressed by people who don't like what it says or how it says it.

I actually did a contract on this stuff in college, reading a ton of great books that people had challenged or banned in public libraries or schools for whatever reason. (Censorship in the US isn't much on keeping it out of bookstores anymore and hasn't been for some time.) In several cases, I learned that, when books were banned in schools, the kids all then went out and found copies other ways. Probably more kids than would have actually done the assignments.

[Buttercup]

I've read lots of banned books and will continue to do so.

[Fazor]

In several cases, I learned that, when books were banned in schools, the kids all then went out and found copies other ways. Probably more kids than would have actually done the assignments.

That doesn't surprise me. And I've seen a few (not as many as you, I'm sure!) where if there had not been a big to-do about the books, kids (or even adults) would most likely have not taken the supposed offensive material to be, well offensive. I'd suspect that at times, the supposed offense is not really there at all, or not intended by the author.

[HenrikOlsen]

It's funny, if you need a list of good books to read, the lists of books that have been banned or proposed banned is actually a quite good start.

It's also occasionally hilarious to read the reasons given for the bans.

If I don't misremember too much, the C. S. Lewis' Narnia books, which are often criticized for being too thinly veiled Christian allegories, were challenged for being about magic and therefore tools of Satan.

[ABR.]

I can't remember which book was involved, but there is the story about Mike Royko getting a call from an outraged librarian. She informed him that she was attempting to get his book banned. He replied, "That's great -- what can I do to help?" She didn't quite understand, but he knew that banning his book(s) would simply increase the sales.

[tdvance]

Was Fahrenheit 451 ever banned? That would be nice and ironic.

[aurora]

Was Fahrenheit 451 ever banned? That would be nice and ironic.

Not sure on that one, but 1984 and Brave New World both are on the list of challenged classics (http://www.ala.org/ala/issuesadvocacy/banned/frequentlychallenged/index.cfm). And are, of course, distopias.

[Buttercup]

Was Fahrenheit 451 ever banned? That would be nice and ironic.

I'm not sure, but I think it was.

The Day No Pigs Would Die is a banned book I own but have yet to read. The Man Without A Face is another. And though there is one element of unsavory question about the title character, it is otherwise a fantastic read. :)

And wasn't A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle also banned?

[Gillianren]

That doesn't surprise me. And I've seen a few (not as many as you, I'm sure!) where if there had not been a big to-do about the books, kids (or even adults) would most likely have not taken the supposed offensive material to be, well offensive. I'd suspect that at times, the supposed offense is not really there at all, or not intended by the author.

Often, the parent has not read the book. Certain groups circulate lists of books that "should be" banned, and sometimes, parents don't exactly get the message. (Okay, not always parents, either.) For example, I read about a parent who tried to get The Scarlet Letter banned for graphic language.


It's funny, if you need a list of good books to read, the lists of books that have been banned or proposed banned is actually a quite good start.

I've found them to be so, certainly. There are always exceptions, leaving aside "I don't like Catcher in the Rye," even, but mostly, the better the book, the more likely it is to be challenged somewhere. This is in part because a lot of really, really good books are also really famous.


It's also occasionally hilarious to read the reasons given for the bans.

On The Diary of Anne Frank--"It's a real downer." I believe it was The Great Gilly Hopkins which was challenged because someone in it chewed gum. Certainly that's the one where someone went through and listed all the "bad words," including "shut up" and "stupid." Even the phrase, "Gilly stared dumbly."


If I don't misremember too much, the C. S. Lewis' Narnia books, which are often criticized for being too thinly veiled Christian allegories, were challenged for being about magic and therefore tools of Satan.

Oh, yes. Again presumably by people who haven't read them, because I've never been sure how you can read them and not work it out.


Was Fahrenheit 451 ever banned? That would be nice and ironic.

Yes. Language. Most versions you get for schools now are actually expurgated of a few words.


And wasn't A Wrinkle in Time by Madeleine L'Engle also banned?

Yes. "New Age religion," which L'Engle said she couldn't even define. Actually, I think I've identified the exact page which does it. Calvin, Meg, and Charles Wallace are supposed to be identifying "warriors for the light," and while Jesus is mentioned, he's not mentioned as having been any different from Buddha or Gandhi or Euclid.

[BigDon]

-snip- In several cases, I learned that, when books were banned in schools, the kids all then went out and found copies other ways. Probably more kids than would have actually done the assignments.

What I hate is when supposed adults, usually young and without children of their own, try to use the above example as reasoning to tell children anything and everything. "They'll find it anyway!" You know, those buffoons who think children are miniature adults because they themselves are so soon out of childhood?

[Gillianren]

What I hate is when supposed adults, usually young and without children of their own, try to use the above example as reasoning to tell children anything and everything. "They'll find it anyway!" You know, those buffoons who think children are miniature adults because they themselves are so soon out of childhood?

I have never disputed the importance of "age appropriate," certainly. After all, when I read about a junior high school taking Deliverance out of its library, I had no problem with that. Swearing, though? Yeah, I have a hard time wanting to "protect" kids from that.

[BigDon]

Gillian, If your interested, I'll PM you about the time I got cornered by circumstance into being an uncharacteristically stern and closed mouth with one of the neighbor kids.

A Ukrainian kid who lived upstairs and was friends with my girls. He found "something" I couldn't let him keep but I couldn't tell him why either. I felt like such a jerk. He was really mad too.

Age appropriate restrictions forbid disclosing here.

[HenrikOlsen]

Oh, yes. Again presumably by people who haven't read them, because I've never been sure how you can read them and not work it out.
I have to admit I'm one who had to have it pointed out, but then I've never been much into looking for allegories when the story is interesting enough in itself.
It's probably also because I'm generally ignorant about Christianity.

[Gillianren]

I have to admit I'm one who had to have it pointed out, but then I've never been much into looking for allegories when the story is interesting enough in itself.
It's probably also because I'm generally ignorant about Christianity.

See, raised Catholic. And I have to say, if you're banning the book as a tool of Satan, you probably know a wee bit about Christianity.

You know, Don, I might just be able to work out that story on my own!

[Van Rijn]

I have to admit I'm one who had to have it pointed out, but then I've never been much into looking for allegories when the story is interesting enough in itself.
It's probably also because I'm generally ignorant about Christianity.

I didn't catch it in The Lion, the Witch and the Wardrobe, but it did hit me on the second or third book. Once it dawned on me, I was actively looking for the references, and noticed a lot more.

For me, it seemed to overwhelm the story in the last two or three books, though I did read through them all.

[BigDon]

A hint: He thought is was a toy submarine. Never trusted me as much afterward either. I felt diminished, but it wasn't about me.

[Gillianren]

A hint: He thought is was a toy submarine. Never trusted me as much afterward either. I felt diminished, but it wasn't about me.

Yeah, that's kind of where I thought we were going. As in, it's where I thought we were going.

[BigDon]

Let's not go there then.

Back to OP.

What was the trip, I must ask even at my age, with Catcher in The Rye?

I almays managed to avoid reading that one. When in came up in English class I recall I chose reading Mark Twain instead. Tom Sawyer I believe. After the first taste though I was hooked.

[Gillianren]

What was the trip, I must ask even at my age, with Catcher in The Rye?

The thing is, I can see from a purely sociological perspective some interest to the thing. I just think it's mediocre writing and an irritating character.


I almays managed to avoid reading that one. When in came up in English class I recall I chose reading Mark Twain instead. Tom Sawyer I believe. After the first taste though I was hooked.

Lucky you; I had to read Catcher in the Rye in high school and put up with all the tedious people who thought it was totally the best book ever. I didn't read Tom Sawyer or Huck Finn until college. The latter for a program called South; the former for, well, my contract about banned books. I like Huck better; Tom Sawyer's a little sociopath.

[AndreasJ]

Yes. "New Age religion," which L'Engle said she couldn't even define. Actually, I think I've identified the exact page which does it. Calvin, Meg, and Charles Wallace are supposed to be identifying "warriors for the light," and while Jesus is mentioned, he's not mentioned as having been any different from Buddha or Gandhi or Euclid.

Euclid? Seems a slightly odd inclusion on the list ...


I read the book many years ago, and remember the scene you are refering to, but don't recall Euclid's inclusion. Perhaps I did not then know who he was (I was about ten) and just assumed he was some sort of religious teacher or the like.

[Sticks]

Well Amazon banned a number of people from reading 1984 earlier this year on their E-Book system

There was also "Six Bunny Wunnies Freak out" That was banned from Charlie Brown's library, but we nver found out why, because Charlie Brown's pediatrician who had banned the book, fainted when asked about it.

The other book that we seem to have problems getting over here in the UK is Death from the Skies. I can not find it in any UK book shop and it seems we have to import it from America.

[Buttercup]

Lucky you; I had to read Catcher in the Rye in high school and put up with all the tedious people who thought it was totally the best book ever.

Sheeple mentality. Just like The Mona Lisa really IS a gorgeous work of art because da Vinci painted it and ultra-snobs have swooned over it for centuries (so you should too). :rolleyes: If Clarence Hickenbaum of Glasgow had painted it, it'd have gone to rot by 1771.

Out of curiosity I bought and read that book around 10 years ago. I guess for its own time it was scandalous, but now? Snoozefest. The attitudes of the main character are now so commonplace.

[A.DIM]

A few on my shelves:

Faulkner's As I Lay Dying (banned by a Kentucky school board).

Acker's Blood and Guts in High School.

Roquelaure's (Anne Rice), the Claiming of Sleeping Beauty, Beauty's Punishment, Beauty's Release.

Ginsburg's Howl.



Also, while not on my shelves, it should be noted that Velikovsky's Worlds in Collision makes the list. The scientific community of the 50s tried to ban this work to the point of influencing its publisher, MacMillan.

[jokergirl]

Well Amazon banned a number of people from reading 1984 earlier this year on their E-Book system

That wasn't really banned; they never were allowed to sell it in that way in the first place, and removed the book when they figured out their mistake (or it was pointed out by the owner).
That's a controversy in and of itself and has been discussed in another thread, but it has nothing to do with the book banning we're discussing here.

Agreeing with everyone on Catcher in the Rye though. It's really not such a great book.

;)

[A.DIM]

You know, reviewing banned books, and the reasons given, one easily discerns the influence of religious organizations.

In that light, even though I think everyone should read it, I suggest The Holy Bible be added to the list. It promotes slavery and murder and can be easily shown to have influenced some of the greatest evils in the history of humankind.

[Buttercup]

You know, reviewing banned books, and the reasons given, one easily discerns the influence of religious organizations.

In that light, even though I think everyone should read it, I suggest The Holy Bible be added to the list. It promotes slavery and murder and can be easily shown to have influenced some of the greatest evils in the history of humankind.

That's been suggested before.

I understand The Holy Bible via a different "lens" (anyone curious as to what please write me privately). My subsequent views would be condemned as heretical by many (most all), but it's only with this "lens" that THB makes sense (especially the "old" portion of it).

And that's enough said publically. :D

[Fazor]

I almays managed to avoid reading that one. When in came up in English class I recall I chose reading Mark Twain instead. Tom Sawyer I believe. After the first taste though I was hooked.

I actually just read Sawyer and then Finn about two years ago. I had found the former as a free online novel. I loved it so much that the day I finished, I went out and bought The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn.


I like Huck better; Tom Sawyer's a little sociopath.

I actually liked Sawyer better, but I agree. I thought the kid was a little monster. From a story standpoint though, it just felt more fun.

[A.DIM]

That's been suggested before.

No doubt, and too often considered taboo to do so. It's the ol' "no religion or politics in the workplace" mantra. It utterly befuddles me when these two things affect everyday lives in present cultures. I daresay the same sentiment here at BAUT, as if Science is unaffected by these topics, is as perplexing.

[Buttercup]

Particularly if science does factor into and can explain it, A.DIM. ;)

[A.DIM]

Well, I'd say could explain it.

;)

[Fazor]

Funnily enough, there's an article in the paper advertising a breakfast / lecture on banned literature at my Alma mater just up the road. Like usual, the paper didn't publish any information about this until the morning that it's actually going on. Very helpful.

Anyway, the article mentioned a factoid from the lecture, saying that some 800-900 (IIRC, I've since closed the article) books get challenged by parents or groups each year. Huck Finn, To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Color Purple, etc. were mentioned. Thankfully, those hadn't been banned. (I don't *like* 'TCP', but it's classic and there's no reason to ban it).

[Sticks]

In that light, even though I think everyone should read it, I suggest The Holy Bible be added to the list. It promotes slavery and murder and can be easily shown to have influenced some of the greatest evils in the history of humankind.

Discussing religious books can be interpreted as violating the no religion rule on this forum. You are advised to desist from doing so.

[Buttercup]

Frankly I'm surprised (though certainly glad it's not so) Philip K. Dick didn't manage to get banned. At least I don't think he ever was, but then I'm still rather new to his novels.

[Gillianren]

Sheeple mentality. Just like The Mona Lisa really IS a gorgeous work of art because da Vinci painted it and ultra-snobs have swooned over it for centuries (so you should too). :rolleyes: If Clarence Hickenbaum of Glasgow had painted it, it'd have gone to rot by 1771.

You know, it is a gorgeous piece of art, and I don't care if Leonardo painted it or not. The reason he has remained famous is that he was talented. Of course, art is subjective. I have no doubt that some of those people did genuinely like the book, but I know for a fact that at least one of them didn't and just didn't contradict the people who did.


Out of curiosity I bought and read that book around 10 years ago. I guess for its own time it was scandalous, but now? Snoozefest. The attitudes of the main character are now so commonplace.

They probably were then, too; the issue is that they were almost never voiced.


You know, reviewing banned books, and the reasons given, one easily discerns the influence of religious organizations.

Certainly many books are banned for religious content, but my understanding is that the majority of books are, at least in theory, banned for language or sexuality.


In that light, even though I think everyone should read it, I suggest The Holy Bible be added to the list. It promotes slavery and murder and can be easily shown to have influenced some of the greatest evils in the history of humankind.

It has been, and for lots of reasons. Including, I suspect, retaliation by people who are annoyed at religious people banning books. And that's as far as I'll discuss it here.


Anyway, the article mentioned a factoid from the lecture, saying that some 800-900 (IIRC, I've since closed the article) books get challenged by parents or groups each year. Huck Finn, To Kill a Mocking Bird, The Color Purple, etc. were mentioned. Thankfully, those hadn't been banned. (I don't *like* 'TCP', but it's classic and there's no reason to ban it).

Well. It's entirely possible they have been banned and we just don't know about it. The ALA can only report on challenges they're told about, and not all challenges go through proper channels. I have a book about book challenges that I picked up when I was studying it for college, and the sheer number of classics which appear on it is simply depressing. Shakespeare, for example--I admit that Othello and Merchant of Venice are not the most enlightened of plays, but I've always believed that to pretend those attitudes didn't exist is to fail to acknowledge that they still do in places.


Frankly I'm surprised (though certainly glad it's not so) Philip K. Dick didn't manage to get banned. At least I don't think he ever was, but then I'm still rather new to his novels.

Probably they have been in places, though I'm not sure he's well-known enough for most parents' groups to care.

[aurora]

You know, it is a gorgeous piece of art, and I don't care if Leonardo painted it or not. The reason he has remained famous is that he was talented. Of course, art is subjective.

Many years ago, in one of the Smithsonian Museums in DC (National Gallery of Art), I came around a corner and saw an amazing portrait painting on the opposite wall. My immediate reaction was "Wow, that is really amazing!"

For background, I am not an art expert, and I had just wandered among paintings from many different time periods for a couple of hours before I saw this one.

Transfixed I walked across the room to read the text next to the painting.

Turns out it was by DaVinci, the only DaVinci painting in the US. (for those curious, it was Ginevra de' Benci, painted in 1474.

I bought a copy in the gift shop.

Da Vinci was an incredible artist.

[aurora]

Regarding Mark Twain, I had a hard time staying current in my studies when I discovered that the University Library had a complete set of all his writings. It spanned a whole shelf. Some I had read before, of course, like the two mentioned above. But others I had never heard of, and a lot of it was short subjects and incomplete writings.

[Fazor]

Well. It's entirely possible they have been banned and we just don't know about it. The ALA can only report on challenges they're told about, and not all challenges go through proper channels.
Ah, I should have been more clear. They haven't been banned in our schools, recently. They very well could have been / could be banned in other places, or even here in the past.

In fact, it wouldn't surprise me if many of those books had, at some point, been disallowed from the local High School. This city is . . . lets just say there's a vast majority of people who at least claim to share the same "viewpoint" on a certain issue. As such, it's funny how high and mighty they can be. For instance, alcoholism, drug use, property crimes, and spousal abuse are rampant (read "we're very redneck"); yet they'd never allow a strip club to move in, because that'd be immoral. ;)

[A.DIM]

Certainly many books are banned for religious content, but my understanding is that the majority of books are, at least in theory, banned for language or sexuality.

I don't know of books banned for religious content; what I meant was books banned because of the influence of religious organizations, for language, sexuality, other things.

[Gillianren]

I don't know of books banned for religious content; what I meant was books banned because of the influence of religious organizations, for language, sexuality, other things.

No, there are books banned for religious content--promoting New Age religion is a popular accusation, if more than a bit vague. However, I suspect that, in cases of language and sexuality, it's the influence of the people on the religion at least as much as the other way 'round.

[Hlafordlaes]

I was reading the thread initially because I was incredulous that any book banning was taking place at all. Of course, I had forgotten schools. My question is, and I would hope the answer is "no," is this going on at university level? I can appreciate the args for age-appropriateness for PS and HS, but college?

[HenrikOlsen]

Ulysses by James Joyce, Candide by Voltaire and John Cleland's Fanny Hill were all banned in the US.

Aristophanes' Lysistrata, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, Boccaccio's Decameron, Defoe's Moll Flanders, and various editions of The Arabian Nights were all banned for decades from the U.S. mails under the Comstock Law of 1873.

This is not banning from school libraries, this is banning from the country as a whole.

Have a look here (http://www.thefileroom.org/documents/dyn/displayMedium.cfm/medium/14) to see other cases.

[Gillianren]

I was reading the thread initially because I was incredulous that any book banning was taking place at all. Of course, I had forgotten schools. My question is, and I would hope the answer is "no," is this going on at university level? I can appreciate the args for age-appropriateness for PS and HS, but college?

I don't know of any; I wouldn't say that doesn't mean it has happened.


Ulysses by James Joyce, Candide by Voltaire and John Cleland's Fanny Hill were all banned in the US.

Aristophanes' Lysistrata, Chaucer's Canterbury Tales, Boccaccio's Decameron, Defoe's Moll Flanders, and various editions of The Arabian Nights were all banned for decades from the U.S. mails under the Comstock Law of 1873.

This is not banning from school libraries, this is banning from the country as a whole.

Have a look here (http://www.thefileroom.org/documents/dyn/displayMedium.cfm/medium/14) to see other cases.

The point is, those cases are decades old.

[HenrikOlsen]

My link includes cases from this decade.

[Gillianren]

Your list, honestly, is not terribly helpful. It's not really sorted by location, year, or censoring body. The first few I looked through were not governmental suppression in the United States in the last three decades or so. Which I admit is not actually specified by what we're talking about, but if we are talking in a broader sense, yes, I can argue quite a lot of governmental censorship in quite a lot of countries. This, I will admit--heck, even Canada has a law which would be unconstitutional censorship in the United States.

[Noclevername]

The Bible has stories of rape, murder, incest, affairs and seductions, prostitution, torture, state-sanctioned child-killing, bears, and other things not appropriate for children or the faint of heart. Yet they allow it in churches.

[Gillianren]

A lot of people haven't read those bits.

[darkhunter]

And at the age of nine or ten, I was reading the science fiction books out of the adult section of the library. I don't think they realized what was in some of those books....

[ToSeek]

The Bible has stories of rape, murder, incest, affairs and seductions, prostitution, torture, state-sanctioned child-killing, bears, and other things not appropriate for children or the faint of heart. Yet they allow it in churches.


This is either a Rule 12 violation or very nearly:

12. Politics & Religion

Due to the contentious nature of these subjects, forum participants are strongly advised to avoid discussing religious and political issues. Please don't begin or contribute to a topic that's merely going to incite or fuel a flame war.

Let's avoid discussing anyone's sacred texts here, please.

[hhEb09'1]

I was reading the thread initially because I was incredulous that any book banning was taking place at all. Of course, I had forgotten schools. My question is, and I would hope the answer is "no," is this going on at university level? I can appreciate the args for age-appropriateness for PS and HS, but college?Our school (MS and HS) library celebrates banned book week every year. :)

A few years ago, some parents of middle school students were upset about some readings that were required. One of them was The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, by Stephen King. As is common in his books, there are a couple kinda-out-of-place grotesque passages--one describes in detail the "confession" of a predator who rapes and dismembers children, which throws off the search for the main character, who is just lost.

Some of the administrators strongly backed the teachers' assignment, and would not be swayed at all. However, Stephen King is on record as saying that his book is inappropriate for that age! The parents weren't trying to get the book pulled from the library, though.

[Gillianren]

Our school (MS and HS) library celebrates banned book week every year. :)

A few years ago, some parents of middle school students were upset about some readings that were required. One of them was The Girl Who Loved Tom Gordon, by Stephen King. As is common in his books, there are a couple kinda-out-of-place grotesque passages--one describes in detail the "confession" of a predator who rapes and dismembers children, which throws off the search for the main character, who is just lost.

Some of the administrators strongly backed the teachers' assignment, and would not be swayed at all. However, Stephen King is on record as saying that his book is inappropriate for that age! The parents weren't trying to get the book pulled from the library, though.

Middle school? What grade? Because I think Stephen King may be wrong, here.

[Ivan Viehoff]

I see this thread petered out with, sadly, no mention of gay penguins. See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/8284509.stm

[Gillianren]

I guess, with no new books coming out, J. K. Rowling just isn't as prominent in Corrupting Our Children's Morals as she used to be.