Did ISRO try to hide from the public problems surrounding Chandrayaan-1?

[Zvezdichko]

EDIT: Thanks to Indian contributors who wrote here (and not only here) - now I am convinced there's no coverup. The original post was:


Okay. Obviously ISRO lied us... But I wonder why?

http://www.isro.gov.in/pressrelease/...spx?Oct23_2008



Then... months later the following statement appeared:

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2009/09/...an1s-problems/



So why did they lie us??? How do they expect us now to trust them after all this?

In the future they should have a better PR so headlines like this can be avoided:

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2009/09/06/isro-candid-chandrayaan1s-problems/

[R.A.F.]

From the full story you linked to...


We assumed that the temperature at 100km above the Moon's surface would be around 75 degrees Celsius.

The temperature of what would be 75 degrees celsius???

[Zvezdichko]

Of any object placed there. The spacecraft, we presume.

[R.A.F.]

But that's not what the linked article says...

[Zvezdichko]

This is irrelevant if we accept that ISRO indeed raised the orbit of the spacecraft to lower its internal temperatures. However, ISRO didn't announce it publicly. We thought this could be the case and many friends suggested this, but believe me - NOBODY believed that India could act as the Soviet Union when it comes to failures.

[crookster_man]

Okay. Obviously ISRO lied us... But I wonder why?

http://www.isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Oct23_2008



Then... months later the following statement appeared:

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2009/09/06/isro-candid-chandrayaan1s-problems/



So why did the hell they lie us??? How do they expect us now to trust them after all this?

Maybe they discovered pyramids on the moon and they are covering it up? :)

[R.A.F.]

All I'm saying is that when a source makes (what I consider) a fundamental mistake, then I tend to not take that source seriously...at least not until it is confirmed by secondary sources.

[Sticks]

Zvezdichko, please can you moderate your language, I have had to remove what some might find coarse or offensive language from your original post.

[Zvezdichko]

There are many press releases. If they contradict earlier press releases, then what?

[Sticks]

Maybe they discovered pyramids on the moon and they are covering it up? :)

crookster_man I would advise you to do a search on this site for Richard Hoagland, and yes he was serious. If you want to discuss such things, assuming you were not making a humourous aside, you would need to start a new thread.

[Zvezdichko]

crookster: Yes, this is a new topic. But such press releases make me worried. A conspiracy theorist will now say: "Yes, ISRO didn't tell us the truth about Chandrayaan's problems. How can we expect them to tell us the truth about the other things (i.e. pyramids, Apollo landings, etc.)?"

[novaderrik]

crookster_man I would advise you to do a search on this site for Richard Hoagland, and yes he was serious. If you want to discuss such things, assuming you were not making a humourous aside, you would need to start a new thread.
he did put one of those smiley thingies at the end of the sentence.. i've been told in the past that those things are supposed to denote humor..

[01101001]

Okay. Obviously ISRO lied us... But I wonder why?

http://www.isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Oct23_2008

That's an October 2008 press release. It's not about activites near the moon in May 2009.


October 23, 2008
Chandrayaan-1 Spacecraft's Orbit Raised

The first orbit-raising manoeuvre of Chandrayaan-1 spacecraft was performed at 09:00 hrs Indian Standard Time (IST) this morning (October 23, 2008) when the spacecraft's 440 Newton Liquid Engine was fired for about 18 minutes by commanding the spacecraft from Spacecraft Control Centre (SCC) at ISRO Telemetry, Tracking and Command Network (ISTRAC) at Peenya, Bangalore.

Maybe you meant: ISRO Press Release, May 20, 2009, The Orbit of Chandrayaan-1 Raised (http://www.isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?May20_2009)

I just see artful language, not lying. That's just PR fun for the careful readers. From what I see there, ISRO didn't give a reason for the adjustment. They gave some expected results. Could you point out the falsehoods in the press release?


The spacecraft in this higher altitude will enable further studies on orbit perturbations, gravitational field variation of the Moon and also enable imaging lunar surface with a wider swath.

[01101001]

he did put one of those smiley thingies at the end of the sentence.. i've been told in the past that those things are supposed to denote humor..

Note for writers: they don't always work. The text they mark actually has to be funny.

September 11, 2001. :)

See. Not humorous.

(News alert: 01101001 used a smiley. But it was for illustrative purposes only.)

[Zvezdichko]

01101001. I think it means lying. Because offering an alternative explainaton counts as lying.

[Gillianren]

01101001. I think it means lying. Because offering an alternative explainaton counts as lying.

In what universe?

[stutefish]

As a relative latecomer to the "space race", with a nascent space program that has only recently begun carrying out high-profile missions before a global audience, I imagine ISRO is greatly tempted to couch their status reports in a way that obscures weakness and saves face.

Obviously some will disagree with this policy, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's a bad policy. In some cultures, the act of face-saving itself is valued, even when the audience knows it's just an act, and that the "true story" will be forthcoming at some point in the future.

If I may be permitted to indulge in a mild cultural stereotype, if India is primarily concerned with how it appears to the Chinese leadership (as opposed to Western scientists), a pro forma face-saving policy might make a lot of sense.

[dgavin]

Okay. Obviously ISRO lied us... But I wonder why?

http://www.isro.gov.in/pressrelease/scripts/pressreleasein.aspx?Oct23_2008



Then... months later the following statement appeared:

http://www.parabolicarc.com/2009/09/06/isro-candid-chandrayaan1s-problems/



So why did they lie us??? How do they expect us now to trust them after all this?

Not telling people about something is not a Lie. What happened here is called an Omission.

A Lie is an intentional non truthful statement made with the intent to deceive.

An Omission is a case where information is not talked about, because it could either be misused, or seems of little importance.

There is a phrase commonly used called, Lie of Omission, that simply refers to an Omission of information with the intent to deceive. However this is inaccurate, as an Omission is not a Lie, even in this case. Dissembling is a better term to use in place of "Lie of Omission".

There for you whole premise that they Lied about something is incorrect.

They omitted something, which is different then lying.

[slang]

For heavens' sake.. it's a press release! Those are expected to highlight successes, or focus on positive aspects of any possibly negative change. Details of technical issues, minor or major, only come out quickly if press reporters are close enough to the engineers rather than the PR people. I don't know if the situation in India with ISRO can be compared with NASA, having so many professional and amateur reporters focusing on every aspect of every mission.

[Zvezdichko]

OK, thanks for the replies.

I'm trying to solve this case. After all, I'm with very mixed feelings. After all, missions like LCROSS announce their issues publicly and I feel this should be part of the PR. PR means public relations. So the public must be informed about the current status. This should mean both positive and negative news.

EDIT: Changing the thread's headline.

[slang]

EDIT: Changing the thread's headline.

(You'll have to report the post and ask a moderator to do that for you.. unless one has already read your post and I now look even more silly than usual)

[Zvezdichko]

I want to change it because after reading a lot of opinions I think that it's a very serious accusation to say that ISRO lies about this - something that's hard to prove.

[R.A.F.]

...I'm with very mixed feelings.

It's only reasonable that you would have strong feelings about this. I can't speak for others, but I hope you understand that it was not my intention to "pick" on you.

[Zvezdichko]

Don't worry R.A.F.! BAUT is a great place to discuss such topics. I was filled with anger today, but emotions are not helpful while trying to find a solution of a problem. So yes... after I read what you (and people not only on this board) wrote to me, I decided to change my tone. And yes, there's a shift from anger to mixed feelings :)

[sanman]

Wait a second - for us Indian space enthusiasts, we've all been talking about the Chandrayaan-1 overheating problem for months now, ever since it was announced back in November. All this sudden new talk about a "coverup" is certainly news to our ears.

Here's just one article out of so many that talked about the Chandrayaan-1 overheating problem when it was announced last year:

http://www.exfn.com/india-moon-craft-hit-by-heat-rise

"Scientists also plan to raise the orbit of the Indian craft to cool it down. It is presently in orbit 100km (62 miles) from the moon. However Mr Annadurai said that would only be done as a last resort."

Look at the date on this news article: Nov-25-2008

Now all of a sudden, somebody's writing that they didn't know about the overheating problem, and that it was kept secret. What hogwash. Whoever they are, they had to be totally isolated from space news not to know this. The fact is that this issue promptly came to light, and has been much discussed over the past months. I participate on Indian space discussion boards regularly, and I know I've chatted about it with others.

So I really don't want to hear any tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists of the Apollo-was-fake variety extending their paranoia towards ISRO. Paranoia is a mental illness, and I don't think anybody should parade it like a badge of honour.

[Bolasanibk]

I have to agree with Sanman. The temperature issues with the Chandrayaan are known and have been discussed since November of 2008.

Some of the instruments were switched off and the orientation of the craft was changed to handle this problem. Raising of the orbit was mentioned as a possible last resort. There were multiple news reports about this issue during the time.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/11/26/india.moon.probe/index.html)
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7748611.stm)

Here is a link to an mainly Indian forum where the issue was discussed when it first came up: Bharat Rakshak (http://forums.bharat-rakshak.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=4395&st=0&sk=t&sd=a&start=1200).

I have also seen statements from ISRO acknowledging that a mistake was made in estimating the temperature Chandrayaan will have to function in and this was one of the major factors in cutting short the lifetime of the craft.

ISRO is lousy when it comes to PR and information dispensing. But I have not seen any attempt to actively lie or hide failures on their side.

[Zvezdichko]

Wait a second - for us Indian space enthusiasts, we've all been talking about the Chandrayaan-1 overheating problem for months now, ever since it was announced back in November. All this sudden new talk about a "coverup" is certainly news to our ears.

Here's just one article out of so many that talked about the Chandrayaan-1 overheating problem when it was announced last year:

http://www.exfn.com/india-moon-craft-hit-by-heat-rise

"Scientists also plan to raise the orbit of the Indian craft to cool it down. It is presently in orbit 100km (62 miles) from the moon. However Mr Annadurai said that would only be done as a last resort."

Look at the date on this news article: Nov-25-2008

Now all of a sudden, somebody's writing that they didn't know about the overheating problem, and that it was kept secret. What hogwash. Whoever they are, they had to be totally isolated from space news not to know this. The fact is that this issue promptly came to light, and has been much discussed over the past months. I participate on Indian space discussion boards regularly, and I know I've chatted about it with others.

So I really don't want to hear any tinfoil-hat conspiracy theorists of the Apollo-was-fake variety extending their paranoia towards ISRO. Paranoia is a mental illness, and I don't think anybody should parade it like a badge of honour.

Very interesting, sanman! Thanks for this!

[slang]

What hogwash.

I see you've been here a while :) Thanks for your input, I found it hard to believe that the huge Indian press, bloggers and forums etc. would be any less hard pressing than the ones prowling around NASA.

[Zvezdichko]

OK, people. Case solved. There's no coverup and ISRO didn't intentionally try to hide the problems surrounding Chandrayaan-1.

We can end this thread, thanks to the active contributors from India. Looks like they were aware, but some news sites are to blame for explicitly stating that there was a lie.

[Van Rijn]

I have to agree with Sanman. The temperature issues with the Chandrayaan are known and have been discussed since November of 2008.

Some of the instruments were switched off and the orientation of the craft was changed to handle this problem. Raising of the orbit was mentioned as a possible last resort. There were multiple news reports about this issue during the time.

CNN (http://www.cnn.com/2008/TECH/space/11/26/india.moon.probe/index.html)
BBC (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7748611.stm)


The BBC article is a bit better than the CNN article, but even the BBC article doesn't make it clear how serious a problem they were having. The CNN article makes it sound like a largely expected and fairly minor issue:

The increase occurred as the craft, the moon -- which it is orbiting -- and the sun lined up, a phenomenon which Annadurai said was not unexpected and which would likely last until the end of December.

"We have switched off the systems (aboard) that are not needed to be on," Annadurai said, ruling out the possibility of damage and adding that the temperature was now down to 40 degrees Celsius (104 degrees Fahrenheit).


That just doesn't convey much urgency. I think this is a combination of overly optimistic statements on ISRO's side, and on the other side, a question of where people are reading the news, and how much research they've done. I have no doubt that this was a subject of heavy discussion in India, but it would be easier to miss the details elsewhere.

[sanman]

It seems that with space-based systems, any problem has the potential to become a fatal one, given the harsh environment. Furthermore, we all know what overheating can do to electronics - we all have PCs and other heat-sensitive devices. It's common sense.

My understanding was the ISRO took into account mainly the radiation coming directly from the Sun, and not the solar radiation bouncing off the Moon at the spacecraft. At that distance, the entire face of the Moon is one giant reflector sending stuff at you. I guess this sort of thing doesn't happen as strongly to Earth-orbiting satellites because of atmospheric trapping. Oh well, live and learn.

ISRO is now scrambling to upgrade the electronics on all upcoming future satellites,

http://www.expressbuzz.com/edition/story.aspx?Title=ISRO+to+replace+computers+on+futu re+satellites&artid=qNqOWfKRYQY=&SectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&MainSectionID=1ZkF/jmWuSA=&SEO=G+Madhavan+Nair,++ISRO,+Oceansat-2,+GSat-4,+Chandr&SectionName=X7s7i|xOZ5Y=

The Chandrayaan-2 mission is going to send a rover to the Moon, and ISRO is working to ensure that lessons learned from the first mission will be used to improve this second mission.

The silver lining to these failures is that lessons will be learned, and improvements will be made to overcome these hurdles in the future. While the systems for the upcoming manned mission have already been man-rated, there's going to be a fresh review in light of what's happened to Chandrayaan-1. The Mars orbiter mission will hopefully not face the same punishing levels of radiation as these other missions.

[Zvezdichko]

I'm sure it won't because Mars is a better environment than the Moon.