65 years ago - D-Day

[JohnD]

All,
This year is the 65th annivesary of D-Day, so there will be many other commemorations, but I've just watched a BBC programme in the Timewatch series, "Bloody Omaha". There's a webpage about it: http://open2.net/timewatch/2008/bloodyomaha.html

Not sure if you in the US can use the BBC iPlayer, but the programme will be up there soon too. It's a repeat, but why not? See: http://www.bbc.co.uk/iplayer/search/?q=Omaha.

My dad went onto the next beach along, Gold. So unless he had survived, as so many Americans didn't, I would not be here.

Thanks.

John

[PraedSt]

Thank you JohnD's dad. And everyone else's who were on the beach that day. Don't make them like they used to, that's for sure. *thumbs up*

[KaiYeves]

National Geographic had a good article about the espionage that went into planning the landing a few years back.

For the soldiers, the sailors, the spies- we salute you.

[Middenrat]

Not forgetting the meteorologists, whose science achieved another level during this conflict and launched the invasion flotilla on a fair wind.

[Nowhere Man]

I met a D-Day veteran (he had the baseball cap to prove it) on Memorial day. He's my neighbor's father. I shook his hand and thanked him. :clap:

Fred

[KaiYeves]

Yes, and the scientists, too.

[JohnD]

Please keep science out of this.

If any scientist was there on D-Day, on any beach, they were there as soldier not as scientist.
I wanted to remember those who died, and those who expected to die but despite that went in.

Tributes to scientists belong in a different thread.
Please.

John

[KaiYeves]

Understood.

[BigDon]

The only person in the world I could tolerate talking smack about the men on the D-Day invasion was my late Uncle Don who passed away this last winter.

He was a Marine and made several contested landings against Japanese held islands, ending with Iwo Jima. (Seven in all I believe) He said on Iwo Jima, even though he was in the third wave at his landing site, they were the first ones on the beach, as the first two waves had been annihilated.

There he went from E-5 to ranking member of his company through three days of straight up attrition. He got the Bronze Star there and later, another Purple Heart. On Iwo he caught eleven rounds from one of those .27cal light machineguns the Japanese used. They said he could go home after that, as it was his third Purple Heart, having got his first Purple Heart at Pearl Harbor.

Being a Marine of course, he only lost his pinkie and had a bit of a limp after catching that much lead. (Though most of the rounds that would have hit his torso where deflected by his weapon, a Thompson submachinegun, hence the hand injury. The eleven rounds that actually hit him, seven went into his left leg)

I think it was Peleilu where the tides didn't come in as expected so his landing craft got hung up 100 yards from shore and the water was six feet deep. (Except where the landing craft was hung up on a coral heads)

Uncle Don said, "Besides being only 5' 10" in six feet of water with 80 pounds of gear on, the *enemy* had been expecting us and had rapid fire anti-aircraft guns depressed down to fire on us. (20mm and larger, according to stuff I've read. :eek:) They killed everybody on the landing craft to either side of the one I was on and after they blew off the door of my landing craft and killed everybody up front I decided the water wasn't that bad an option." They tried to help each other get to the beach but several of his friends drowned on the way and there they were, still looking at enemy auto-cannons, with all the good hiding places already mined.

So when Uncle Don would say, "Is that all? One landing?" Not seriously of course, I would start to say something then remember who I was talking to.

[jfribrg]

I've seen plenty of documentaries, and cannot imagine what it was like especially for the first waves of landing craft.

One thing that many of the veterans said was how amazed they were at the number of ships there were. This was the largest invasion fleet in history. One fellow said it looked as though you could hop from one ship to another all the way back to England. I've never seen any pictures that show this. I suspect that no pictures exist because the picture would have been from the German vantage point, and they weren't exactly sitting around on the beach taking pictures of the Channel.

[HenrikOlsen]

One fellow said it looked as though you could hop from one ship to another all the way back to England.
I would think you'd have to be on one of the craft to see it that way, and all of those who had that view where far too busy to take pictures.

[mahesh]

I Salute.

I salute all those braves, from all over the world, from all sides, who took part in D-Day landings. All those who fell. All those who did this for me and my fellow citizens of the world.


Thank you

[Veeger]

I salute those veterans who stared death in the eyes for the cause of freedom.

I especially wish to express a tribute to my late father-in-law who was among the brave who landed at Normandy and pressed through to the fall of Germany earning a Purple Heart along the way. Thank you Glenn.

[Buttercup]

This should have happened a few years *earlier*...before more innocent civilians died in concentration camps.

Let's face it, the U.S. only got involved after the Japanese gave us an impolite tap on the shoulder.

Will defer further comments, wishing to avoid politics.

[PraedSt]

Couldn't have done it much earlier Buttercup. Takes time to build and gather a whopping invasion force. And the US were helping 'unofficially' well before Pearl.

[RAF_Blackace]

S!

[Damburger]

The role of the landing in liberating Europe was obviously critical, and the bravery of those who participated beyond question; but the culture surrounding the allied invasion of Europe makes me cringe sometimes. English people who were not alive at the time use it as a stick to bash the French with. Americans do the same with the English and the French.

Don't say "We saved you from the Nazis" to anyone unless you are an old man with medals and bullet wounds. Associating yourself with the deeds of someone else who happened to be born in the same country, just to make a nationalistic jibe, is thoroughly unpleasant.

By all means celebrate the liberation of Europe. Just don't try and steal the glory for yourself or whatever agenda you decide to push.

[mahesh]

Shall we not keep this thread as a Remembrance tribute. Please.
Silence. Silent prayers. Silent thanks. For we are here to remember and thank them.

JohnD's father; BD's Uncle Don; Veeger's grand dad Glenn; and many many many others. We salute thee.

[Valkyrie801]

Because you are removed from the responsibility.


By their sacrifice.:cry:

[Romanus]

Read a brief account by a German who was there who said that, as soon as he and his men saw all those ships, they knew the War was over.

[Tucson_Tim]

Don't say "We saved you from the Nazis" to anyone unless you are an old man with medals and bullet wounds. Associating yourself with the deeds of someone else who happened to be born in the same country, just to make a nationalistic jibe, is thoroughly unpleasant.

By all means celebrate the liberation of Europe. Just don't try and steal the glory for yourself or whatever agenda you decide to push.

Yeah, I get sick of the "we" stuff too.

[PraedSt]

The role of the landing in liberating Europe was obviously critical, and the bravery of those who participated beyond question; but the culture surrounding the allied invasion of Europe makes me cringe sometimes. English people who were not alive at the time use it as a stick to bash the French with. Americans do the same with the English and the French.

Don't say "We saved you from the Nazis" to anyone unless you are an old man with medals and bullet wounds. Associating yourself with the deeds of someone else who happened to be born in the same country, just to make a nationalistic jibe, is thoroughly unpleasant.

By all means celebrate the liberation of Europe. Just don't try and steal the glory for yourself or whatever agenda you decide to push.
I have no problem with what you describe. People are proud of their family, their ancestors, their history.

They're even proud of their country winning the World Cup way back when, but no-one assumes that they're bragging of being in the team.

[Damburger]

I have no problem with what you describe. People are proud of their family, their ancestors, their history.

They're even proud of their country winning the World Cup way back when, but no-one assumes that they're bragging of being in the team.

Well, I also find hard drinking, morbidly obese men in their 40s hanging onto someone elses ancient sporting glory to be pathetic figures. Not a big fan of spectator sports myself.

It is the definition of 'their' history I find absurd. History isn't owned. You cannot boost your character by finding some coincidental link between yourself and a sportsman or war hero.

Those who live under democracies in Europe today owe that not to any nation, or anybody too young to have been there, but specifically to the men of ALL nations who were actually there and contributed, and to a lesser extent to those who contributed to the war effort indirectly.

[PraedSt]

Well, I also find hard drinking, morbidly obese men in their 40s hanging onto someone elses ancient sporting glory to be pathetic figures. Not a big fan of spectator sports myself.

It is the definition of 'their' history I find absurd. History isn't owned. You cannot boost your character by finding some coincidental link between yourself and a sportsman or war hero.

Those who live under democracies in Europe today owe that not to any nation, or anybody too young to have been there, but specifically to the men of ALL nations who were actually there and contributed, and to a lesser extent to those who contributed to the war effort indirectly.
I don't think I've come across a set of sentences I've disagreed with more. But that's enough for this remembrance thread. If you want a scrap, I suggest we take it outside. :)

[slang]

A trip to Normandy would be good for many people that seem to already have forgotten about WW II and the sacrifices made so we could live free from tyranny. Spend one day there, visit the beaches, the museums, and of course the graves. It's an unforgettable experience. Those brave young men from many countries... I have no more to say. My thoughts are for them.

[mugaliens]

Not forgetting the meteorologists, whose science achieved another level during this conflict and launched the invasion flotilla on a fair wind.

Uh... meat-eyor-ology?

[Space Chimp]

The role of the landing in liberating Europe was obviously critical, and the bravery of those who participated beyond question; but the culture surrounding the allied invasion of Europe makes me cringe sometimes. English people who were not alive at the time use it as a stick to bash the French with. Americans do the same with the English and the French.


Also agreed. I think we in the West often forget the giant struggle in the East. Even on the eve of D-Day the majority of German army divisions were hundreds of miles away trying stave off the Russian offensive in eastern europe. Germany in World War 2 was caught in a massive military vice, but one arm of that vice paid the heavier toll. I seem to recall reading more Russian civilians died during the horrendous three year siege of Leningrad, than the US lost combat soldiers in the entire conflict. However, some of the blame goes to Stalin's brutality and indifference to losses as well.

[schlaugh]

I seem to recall reading more Russian civilians died during the horrendous three year siege of Leningrad, than the US lost combat soldiers in the entire conflict.

Wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties)has the raw numbers...briefly:

USSR
Civilian deaths: 11,400,000
Military deaths: 10,700,000
Attributed to holocaust: 1,000,000
Total: 21,100,000

USA
Civilian deaths: 1,700
Military deaths: 416,000
Attributed to holocaust: 0
Total: 418,500

[Swift]

A trip to Normandy would be good for many people that seem to already have forgotten about WW II and the sacrifices made so we could live free from tyranny. Spend one day there, visit the beaches, the museums, and of course the graves. It's an unforgettable experience. Those brave young men from many countries... I have no more to say. My thoughts are for them.
Absolutely. I visited several of the beaches when I was living in France in 1984/85. It is a very moving experience. I was also in Paris on June 6, 1985 for the 40th anniversary. A great parade and fireworks show, but I also got to see a lot of proud veterans.

When I was a kid my mom worked with an English fellow who was in one of the gliders that landed behind the beaches. He never talked about it much, but I understand he was the only fellow in his company that survived to the end of the war.

Both my dad and my uncle were stationed in the Pacific.

Here's to all the brave men and women. May their sacrifice never be forgotten.

[mike alexander]

My father-in-law was in the Pacific. I have a 105mm shell casing from him that was turned into an ashtray. Many years later, while I was cleaning off half a century of grime I found the names of the men in his platoon scratched into the bottom. On the side was scratched "Iwo Jima".

He never talked about it. Not at all.

[mugaliens]

schlaugh - those numbers are particularly sobering. I would like to see the German, Italian, and some other numbers alongside them for comparison.

[schlaugh]

schlaugh - those numbers are particularly sobering. I would like to see the German, Italian, and some other numbers alongside them for comparison.

Can do...although I'm just channeling Wikipedia. And yes, the numbers are mind boggling. I won't - and shouldn't - reproduce the entire table here but the site is quite interesting as it also illustrates the percentage of a given nation's population lost to the war. The greatest percentage loss belongs to Poland at 17.2%.

Poland
Civilian deaths: 2,760,000
Military deaths: 240,000
Attributed to holocaust: 3,000,000
Total: 6,000,000

Italy
Civilian deaths: 145,100
Military deaths: 301,400
Attributed to holocaust: 8,000
Total: 454,500

Germany
Civilian deaths: 1,540,000
Military deaths: 5,533,000
Attributed to holocaust: 160,000
Total: 7,233,000

Dutch East Indies
Civilian deaths: 4,000,000
Military deaths: 0
Attributed to holocaust: 0
Total: 4,000,000

Japan
Civilian deaths: 580,000
Military deaths: 2,120,000
Attributed to holocaust: 0
Total: 2,700,000

[mahesh]

...On the side was scratched "Iwo Jima".
He never talked about it. Not at all.
Such men of grit, Mike! Salute to him too.

Peace on Earth. Forevermore. I wish for no war anywhere.

Shalom.

edit:
thank you JohnD for the OP

[Space Chimp]

Can do...although I'm just channeling Wikipedia. And yes, the numbers are mind boggling. I won't - and shouldn't - reproduce the entire table here but the site is quite interesting as it also illustrates the percentage of a given nation's population lost to the war. The greatest percentage loss belongs to Poland at 17.2%.

Those are indeed staggering numbers. I found a study by British military historian Steve Crawford that calcualtes that 80% of Germany's armed forces losses were suffered on the Eastern Front alone. Whether that includes losses in Poland and Yugoslavia I'm not sure, but I think it indicates why most military historians see the German invasion of the former Soviet Union as the turning point of WW2 in Europe.

I imagine the numbers for China are staggering as well, with a civil war as well as a Japanese invasion to contend with.