Environmental poll

[banquo's_bumble_puppy]

Will the environment continue to get worse, or will it get better?

[Betenoire]

Considering how many people on this board, in theory with at least some scientific bent, have said that humans aren't affecting the environment, I think enough of humanity has its head buried up its... rather, in the sand that we'll not get around to doing anything significant to stop it until we get pimp-slapped a couple of times for our joint, willful stupidity.

BTW, BBP, are you listening to NPR right now?

[Chemist]

I'm wondering why some people think that the environment is getting worse? Hasn't it been getting better for decades now? Aren't cleaner technologies being used?

[HenrikOlsen]

The good thing to remember, is that there's no way we can wipe out all life on the planet no matter what we do.
The bad one is that we're quite capable of wiping out ourselves.

With the US pulling out of Kyoto, and giving tax breaks for buying SUV's, I think it's pretty clear that we have at least one major industrial nation where the leaders don't give a damn about the environment if it's in the way of profit for their friends.

I don't see the environment getting better soon :(

[The Supreme Canuck]

Thing is, we really don't have that much of an effect on the environment. The ozone layer is fixing itself and the global warming theory is iffy at best.

[Humphrey]

The environment will get worse. I just will debate you on how long it will take. :-)

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, a long time from now we're going to run out of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere and everything will die... and then even later, the sun will go out... and we will too!

[SollyLama]

Had a long argument with a guy about vehicle emissions and the chicken little therories about SUV's destroying the earth. If it's not one thing to label as the next great evil, it'll be something else.
Different types of environmental pollution. Gas emissions have been going down per vehicle, but there's more vehicles on the road. Better recycling efforts, but there's also more people generating waste.
It's a balance. But there's been too many sky is falling predictions for me to get all worked up over it anymore. I remember how acid rain was supposed to melt the skin right off of you by 2000.
The problem is the science is easily twisted by whatever lobby group is buying the ear of congress this month.
As long as population growth exceeds efforts to deal with the increase of pollution, then it will get worse. The issue is whether that's really a significant amount or not.
In my life, I've seen major improvements to the environment. When I was a kid, the Merrimack River in NH was so nasty I never swam in it, despite living 2 blocks away.
By the time I was 20 the river was rated as nearly drinkable. Fish were restocked and people eat the fish out of there all the time. You can swim in it all day. Better, not worse.

[tuffel999]

Thing is, we really don't have that much of an effect on the environment. The ozone layer is fixing itself and the global warming theory is iffy at best.

No global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best it is dead on. Our part in the process is what is being debated. As far as the environment I would say it has been getting worse but eventually will get better as we become more advanced and/or it starts affecting us thereby kicking our asses into high gear and do something about it. I don't however have any idea on a time frame.

[tuffel999]

Here is one I always tried to explain to people in my undergraduate environmental science but always got strange looks for. If you made engines that run without pollution and without gas as a fuel source at our current technological level you would NOT get rid of our dependence on oil. (Also if the fuel is less expensive you drop the overall cost of the vehicle thereby having MORE people owning a vehicle.) This causes all kinds of problems because our oil use MAY go up the reasons: Oil is used for the plastics in the car more cars=more plastics used, oil is used in the production of tires again more cars driving uses more tires, oil is used to lubricate engines more cars more lubricant needed, oil is used to make roads more cars=more roads(trust me in my city it is horrible), and I am certain i have missed some thing from my usual argument. Oh well, the picture should be clear. Getting rid of fuel guzzling suv's won't rid us of our oil use. Only a new method of transportation will. Also, I know many of these items use non-natural or recycled oils but natural oil use is still quite high and very cheap(comparitivly).

[mike alexander]

I've mentioned on another thread (and Arthur Clarke said a generation ago) that petroleum is far to valuable to burn.

The most recent breakdown I've seen on total oil use is that about 85% is used as a direct energy source (burned), divided about evenly between transportation and static uses (heating, electricity generation, etc.). The remaining 15% is divided up between plasitcs and other petrochemicals.

So the amount used for nonenergy processes is significant. But it won't produce the CO2 that burning does.

[mutant]

I don't see the environment getting better until we stop making so many people.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Thing is, we really don't have that much of an effect on the environment. The ozone layer is fixing itself and the global warming theory is iffy at best.

No global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best it is dead on. Our part in the process is what is being debated.

That's what I meant. The greenhouse effect is correct, but global warming (caused by us) is iffy. Sorry for the confusion.

[gethen]

I don't see the environment getting better until we stop making so many people.

I voted, based on hope, that the environment will improve, but one ray of hope came out this year. The world population's growth rate is actually slowing for the first time ever. (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/162692.stm)
From what I've read, the biggest factor seems to be education. As soon as women in poorer countries figure out that they don't have to be pregnant every year, and how that can be avoided, they stop having so many kids. Still too many of us being born, but at least it's slowing down.

[ocasey3]

Companies dumping toxins in to our water supplies for small fines. Rain forests razed at alarming rates. Urban sprawl. Gas guzzling vehicles. Greater demands for plastics. Burning fossil fuels for energy. Overpopulation. Strip malls on every freaking space of land possible. Over packaging.

These are things I see affecting the environment on a daily basis. Green spaces are diminishing everywhere I look. I don't need to worry about a greenhouse effect when I can't even eat the fish I caught because of mercury levels. Or how my eyes would burn every day from the smog when I went to school in Pasadena, Ca.

My point is that we do have an effect on our environment and it will get worse unless these issues are addressed and dealt with. The Earth will be fine in the long run, but will our place on it be?

[Sammy]

My thoughts follow; by way of explanation, I spent 28 years in fairly senior positions at U.S. EPA. I don't claim to be an expert in all environmental science areas, but have some grounding and familiarity witht he issues.

Some things have improved (control of acid rain precursors have helped that problem a lot); others don't look so good (like global warming/CO2 emissions). Contrary to some things said in this thread, the drinking water supply is reasonable safe, but aging infrastructure and water resources themselves may pose a problem in the near future.

The underlying problem is two-fold--population growth (tho an earlier poster indicated the world population growth rate has declined), and the future industrialization of the 3d world, especially China. More and more people are going to get closer to U.S. levels of consumer consumption AND waste production (including auto/powerplant emissions). What will happen when Asia is full of two-car families, busily belching pollutants as they zip down the freeways over the rice paddys on the way to their air-conditioned homes with 65 inch TVs?

We aren't likely to give up our way of life, and we can hardly expect the folks in the 3d world to reject it if they can get it!

[Chemist]

My concern really isn't about the environment getting worse. All those dire predictions about acid rain dissolving everything and oceans boiling away haven't materialized. And I remember reading that temperature fluctuations actually can have a cosmic cause.

My main concern is the depletion of nonrenewable resources. I think these resources will go before the environment does. I'm glad that research has explored alternative sources of energy and materials.

[kucharek]

The environment is getting better on a local scale when you look at most higher industrialized countries like Germany. We polluted a lot of our environment in the 50s, 60s and 70s, but started to do something against since then. Rivers are again pretty clean, the air in the cities is breathable and other stuff. But on a global scale, I think we are still going downhill. Too many countries who can't or won't afford spending money for the protection of the environment.

[russ_watters]

Companies dumping toxins in to our water supplies for small fines. Rain forests razed at alarming rates. Urban sprawl. Gas guzzling vehicles. Greater demands for plastics. Burning fossil fuels for energy. Overpopulation. Strip malls on every freaking space of land possible. Over packaging. You shouldn't consider Detroit typical. And I gotta laugh at the strip-mall one. Its just funny.

[Stuart]

No global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best it is dead on. Our part in the process is what is being debated.

This is one of those cases where a comma and its position, are critical. There is a world of difference between

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy, at best it is dead on.

and

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best, it is dead on.

I was reading an article today on HNN (History News Network) which alleges that the evidence to support global warming (most notably the alleged hockey-stick curve) is highly suspect and may be fraudulent. Comparisons are already being drawn with the Belleisle "Arming America" scandal. If the allegations are correct, the kick the props out from under the whole concept and effectively indicate that there is no "global warming"; that what we are seeing is nothing more than routine, long-term temperature fluctuations. This follows some recently-reported Russian work that also discredits much of the claims for Global Warming.

By the way; the US did NOT withdraw from the Kyoto Agreement; itw as never in it. The treaty was rejected by the Senate 99 - 0 and was thus null and void as far as the US was concerned. Good thing to, it was a monumentally stupid concept.

[SeanF]

No global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best it is dead on. Our part in the process is what is being debated.

This is one of those cases where a comma and its position, are critical. There is a world of difference between

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy, at best it is dead on.

and

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best, it is dead on.

Not to mention the possibilities that start out "No global warming". :)


By the way; the US did NOT withdraw from the Kyoto Agreement; itw as never in it. The treaty was rejected by the Senate 99 - 0 and was thus null and void as far as the US was concerned. Good thing to, it was a monumentally stupid concept.

Isn't it also true that several of the Kyoto provisions could not be legally (that is, constitutionally) enforced by the federal government anyway?

[informant]

Since the collapse in November of global warming talks at The Hague, the Kyoto climate treaty has been on life support. Now President Bush appears to have pulled the plug — at least as far as U.S. involvement goes.

"We'll be working with our allies to reduce greenhouse gases, but I will not accept a plan that will harm our economy and hurt American workers," the president told reporters Thursday when asked about the climate agreement reached in 1997 in Kyoto, Japan.

He said he would remain "open minded" on addressing the threats of global warming. But he maintained the Kyoto agreement's mandatory reductions in heat-trapping greenhouse gases, principally carbon dioxide from burning fossil fuels, and short timetable are too expensive and unwise when the country faces energy problems.source (http://www.enn.com/news/wire-stories/2001/03/03302001/ap_bush_42805.asp)
No mention of legislation problems here.
No mention of the Senate either.


Three years and four months ago, then-Vice President Al Gore hailed the Kyoto agreement, which he personally helped craft, as a breakthrough in addressing climate change. It called on industrial nations to cut heat-trapping emissions to below 1990 levels by 2012.
If Americans were involved in crafting it, I find it hard to believe that the agreement would somehow be hindered by American law.
The Kyoto Protocol (http://unfccc.int/resource/convkp.html)
More on the Kyoto agreement (http://www.sfu.ca/~sfpirg/hot_topics/kyoto_agreement.htm)

Edited to add link.

[Captain Kidd]

[rant]
Population Levels
I heard on NPR a while back that Europe's population is decreasing due to women having babies later in life and less of them. The average is... 1.7 I believe. Also, the US's population is growing only because of immigration. If you strip out immigration, the US population is shrinking also. Again due to the wait later/have fewer baby thing. So we might be stabilizing there.

Power Production
Power producers in the US spend tons cleaning up their emissions; one number I can remember right now is that one of them spends about one million dollars a day cleaning up its fossil plants' emissions. They're nearly at the breaking point. You can scream all you want about them cleaning up the emissions, but they’re businesses, they’re there to make money. They could care less who buys it, only that the money made is more than the money spent. Spend more on a plant and you shut it down.
As for what somebody once told me about how that would be a good thing and they could be replaced by wind turbines and solar panels: The sun sets and it can get cloudy. The average modern wind turbine can produce about 1,000 kW annually. A single modern fossil unit can do around 1,000,000kW annually and are generally in plants that have 2-10 such turbines. So to replace one plant with 5 fossil turbines at 800,000kW each (I dropped the number a bit to account for all the older units), you would need 4,000 wind turbines. That’s not counting the fact that most places are absolutely horrid for wind turbine placement. Plus the flicker. One problem in England is the flicker at sunrise/sunset. Try to concentrate with somebody turning the lights on/off. Flick, flick, flick, flick. (Sorry, that’s a real sore spot for me, some people seem convinced that 1 wind turbine is enough to power the world. #-o :D )

Global Warming
Then there's that controversial satellite study of the upper atmosphere. Depending on how you shake the numbers it either confirms global warming or global cooling. Of course the people they interviewed were obviously biased, this person was a researcher into the dangerous effects of global warming and studied the data and found out that it confirmed it. That person wrote a book about how it’s a myth and the data proved it. However it was the people claiming independence that seemed to lean toward the data trending slightly downward.

For those who want to know why the data could be skewed, they covered that. There were millions (billions maybe) of data points from multiple satellites. You had to make sure that the time was accurate; one satellite might be a few seconds/minutes off. There were issues with sunlight on the satellite causing a bias that had to be corrected for, same with atmospheric fluctuations do to localized heating because of one reason or another. One satellite would get replaced and the new one would read half a degree off of the old with no good way to figure out which was in better calibration. A real hodgepodge of stuff that had a bunch of fluff and bad data points that need to be filtered through. Last I heard, Germany, I think, was getting into the mix and setting up an independent panel to review the data.
[/rant :evil:]

Oh and for the poll: I really don't know what to believe right now. We might or might not be causing the trouble. Or it might be a cycle and we just starting monitoring it in the upswing and thus it looks like we're causing it when it's just part of a natural cycle.

[edited to fix a few things]

[informant]

Then there's that controversial satellite study of the upper atmosphere. Depending on how you shake the numbers it either confirms global warming or global cooling. Of course the people they interviewed were obviously biased, this person was a researcher into the dangerous effects of global warming and studied the data and found out that it confirmed it. That person wrote a book about how it’s a myth and the data proved it. However it was the people claiming independence that seemed to lean toward the data trending slightly downward.
Wouldn't that be all of them?

[Stuart]

No mention of legislation problems here.
I can't comment on the legislation or its problems. I defer to others there.

No mention of the Senate either.
Perhaps there was in the bits edited out. Doesn't matter. The Senate rejected the Kyoto agreement by 95 - 0 in 1997. The treaty was a dead duck from that point onwards. The only reason that Clinton signed it befroe leaving office was to create an otherwise non-existant issue.


If Americans were involved in crafting it, I find it hard to believe that the agreement would somehow be hindered by American law.
I don't have any problems in believing anything derogatory about Al "I Invented The Internet" Gore. His involvement probably explains the fact that Kyoto was a monumentally stupid agreement.

[informant]

This:



No mention of the Senate either.
Perhaps there was in the bits edited out. Doesn't matter. The Senate rejected the Kyoto agreement by 95 - 0 in 1997. The treaty was a dead duck from that point onwards.
would seem to conflict with this:



No mention of legislation problems here.
I can't comment on the legislation or its problems. I defer to others there.

Your opinion of Al Gore and Bill Clinton is quite beside the point, as I’m sure you realize.
And, by the way, Did Al Gore claim he invented the Internet? (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm)

[Stuart]

This:



No mention of the Senate either.
Perhaps there was in the bits edited out. Doesn't matter. The Senate rejected the Kyoto agreement by 95 - 0 in 1997. The treaty was a dead duck from that point onwards.
would seem to conflict with this:



No mention of legislation problems here.
I can't comment on the legislation or its problems. I defer to others there.

Your opinion of Al Gore and Bill Clinton is quite beside the point, as I’m sure you realize.
And, by the way, Did Al Gore claim he invented the Internet? (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm)

No contradiction at all. There was a question about whether aspects of the Kyoto agreement were beyond the remit of the federal Government. I can't comment on that. However, the Senate Vote, nixing the treaty is public record.

The Al Gore reference was tongue-in-cheek. However, the hypothesis that his involvement in framing the Kyoto Treaty explains why it is such a risible idiocy was not.

[tuffel999]

I was reading an article today on HNN (History News Network) which alleges that the evidence to support global warming (most notably the alleged hockey-stick curve) is highly suspect and may be fraudulent. Comparisons are already being drawn with the Belleisle "Arming America" scandal. If the allegations are correct, the kick the props out from under the whole concept and effectively indicate that there is no "global warming"; that what we are seeing is nothing more than routine, long-term temperature fluctuations. This follows some recently-reported Russian work that also discredits much of the claims for Global Warming.

By the way; the US did NOT withdraw from the Kyoto Agreement; itw as never in it. The treaty was rejected by the Senate 99 - 0 and was thus null and void as far as the US was concerned. Good thing to, it was a monumentally stupid concept.

I am not really sure what your point was in there. My point was that global warming happens, otherwise the Ice Ages would have never ended. Now our part in the process, speeding it up or otherwise, is what is being debated and researched. The evidence for global warming has been around for years through use of ice cores at the poles. Humans have been producing greenhouse gases in large quantity only since the industrial revolution so it makes this research a lot harder to do since there is no real nice and neat way to measure our impact right now, a few million years from now that may change but it also may be too late. However, it would be nieve(sp?) to believe we have NO impact what so ever on our environment since we have conclusively proved that we can change the flora, fauna, and structure of great tracts of land and adversley affect those organisms that used to inhabit them and ourselves, especially in the US (passenger pigeon, bald eagle almost, buffalo almost, many others, love canal, the great lakes pollution, deforestation, acid rain destruction of the Smokey Mountains, the list keeps going).

As for the Kyoto accord why would it be such a bad idea? Please enlighten me. I don't think I would care to much to be breathing CO2 instead of oxygen, I get to see what that does to mice we euthenize in the lab all the time and I'll pass on that one.

[tuffel999]

No global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best it is dead on. Our part in the process is what is being debated.

This is one of those cases where a comma and its position, are critical. There is a world of difference between

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy, at best it is dead on.

and

No, global warming as a theory isn't iffy at best, it is dead on.

Not to mention the possibilities that start out "No global warming". :)



I meant the following:

No, Global warming as a theory is not iffy at beast rather the theory is dead on. Our involvement in said event is what is being debated. Everyone happy now. I am not a nenglish major sorry. By the way what is a ; for?(rhetorical question) ](*,)

[informant]

nieve(sp?)
naive

[Betenoire]

Your opinion of Al Gore and Bill Clinton is quite beside the point, as I’m sure you realize.
And, by the way, Did Al Gore claim he invented the Internet? (http://www.snopes.com/quotes/internet.htm)

To go further off target: That site even understates Gore's contribution to the internet.
There are two loci for the creation of the internet: Berkeley and the DoD. The DoD had high-bandwidth lines strung from Norway to Britain to the US way back when so that seismographs in Norway could communicate info re: USSR nuke testing back to the US. Gore was in charge of the House committee to develop civilian applications of such a system. I can't remember if it was Cerf or Dvorak (or somebody else, it's been about a year since I saw the quote) who said, "The internet would not exist without Al Gore."

Alright, done. Back to letting the conservatives Gore-bash.

[Stuart]

As for the Kyoto accord why would it be such a bad idea? Please enlighten me. I don't think I would care to much to be breathing CO2 instead of oxygen, I get to see what that does to mice we euthenize in the lab all the time and I'll pass on that one.
If the idea was genuinely to reduce carbon dioxide emissions, the Kyoto Accord would have concentrated on the three greatest sources of pollution - India, China and Russia. I've been to China and the air pollution in the big cities is so bad it causes lung and skin problems. Instead, the Kyoto agreement primarily targeted the United States - the country that has done the most to counter pollution.

The whole farce was nothing to do with "global warming" (if such a thing exists) or pollution control; it was purely political in its structure and intent.


My point was that global warming happens, otherwise the Ice Ages would have never ended.
Arguably the ice ages were the result of global cooling and we're just returning to normal. In fact, I can remember from a few decades back that global cooling and a return to the ice ages was a serious concern (again based on "temperature trends". Look back to the science fiction published then and you'll see that trend reflected (books like the Sixth Winter for example).

The recent Russian work was very interesting; it suggested that there was no "global warming" at all; that the effects observed were simply routine fluctuations. The problem is that we have only solid data for a few decades and even the results of that are being disputed.

[informant]

What could be the political gain of something like the Kyoto protocol?

[Bob]

There are two loci for the creation of the internet: Berkeley and the DoD. ... Gore was in charge of the House committee to develop civilian applications of such a system.
Alright, done. Back to letting the conservatives Gore-bash.

I would say the loci are UCLA (not Berkeley, though this isn't a Bruins vs Bears thing), DoD, and a corporation called BBN. The first packet switching was done at UCLA in 1968 using software developed at BBN under contract from DoD. By the end of the year computers at 4 universites (UCLA, Stanford, UCSB, and Utah) were interconnected. Gore was packing his bags for Vietnam at the time. By the time he was first elected to office in 1976 the Intenet was a pretty robust system connecting several dozen universities. Maybe he did influence the internet explosion into civilian applications in the 1980's, but my own opinion is that home computer availability and internet availability created a technological tipping point.

[tuffel999]

Global Warming and the Great Lakes. See below.


http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=570&ncid=753&e=1&u=/nm/20031104/sc_nm/environment_warming_dc

[SpaceTrekkie]

I personally think things will improve over time as we develope better (cleaner) ways of producing power and running cars.

[Betenoire]

ST, we'll also develop more efficient ways to make big messes.

I was reading yesterday (in the Wall Street Journal) that there are multi-million ton piles of sulfur in Canada and elsewhere made of the sulfur separated out of gasoline during the refining process. There's nothing to be done with that sulfur (the market price of it is less than the cost to move it to the nearest shipping ports), so it just sits there, occassionally bursting into flame or acidifying the water supply or eating a worker.

[snowcelt]

Fact #1 The Earth's temperature has climbed by over 1 degree C in the last 100 years.
Fact#2 The people of Earth do add to the temp rise because we push more heat in than we extract.
Fact#3 The Earth's ability to absorb extra energy is not known.
Fact#4 The Earth's physical boundaries are finite'.
Fact#5 Species are dying at a rate that has not been seen at any time in our history.
Fact#6 The math theory utilizing Bayes' ideas as espoused by Carter and Leslie have never had as much relevance.
Fact#7 The population of the planet is still increasing in the vary places that have no way of controlling themselves.

Got a million more.

Earth 1( She'll be here) and humans less than One(there is no grantee that we will be here.)

[Glom]

Fact#5 Species are dying at a rate that has not been seen at any time in our history.

Erm... what about after the Mezozoic period?

[SeanF]

Fact#5 Species are dying at a rate that has not been seen at any time in our history.

Erm... what about after the Mezozoic period?

Isn't that prehistoric?

[tuffel999]

Fact#2 The people of Earth do add to the temp rise because we push more heat in than we extract.

How do we push heat into the earth?

All energy on earth comes from the sun or from the release of chemical reaction of things already here. So all of the heat(enrgy) would already be here in the form of matter(mass). E=mc2. Heat is thermal energy. You can't make it and you can't destroy all you can do is change its form.

[russ_watters]

Fact#5 Species are dying at a rate that has not been seen at any time in our history.

Erm... what about after the Mezozoic period?

Isn't that prehistoric? Not pre-geologic history. If we want to limit it to history as recorded by humans, we also cut out things like ice ages which are clearly relevant to a discussion on global warming. Heck, for climate data, "recorded history" depending on what data you are referring to could be the late 1960s when the first weather satellites went up.

Most of those "facts" are dubious, irrelevant, meaningless, or non sequitur.

My opinion on the subject, in any case, is that air pollution in general is a bad thing and shoud be reduced if possible. Obviously that is the default opinion (no one will tell you air pollution is GOOD). I am however, a practical person and weigh reducing pollution against the other factors (economics, energy, politics, etc.). In general I think the US is doing a decent job but could be doing better - specifically by reducing our dependence on COAL for power.

[badcop666]

Hi,

this poll can be correct and representative, only if you
a) clearly state that your assumption is either of the two moral statements - 'get worse' or 'get better'
or
b) extend it to include further options which correctly describe the range of possibilities - eg., humanity's impact is overstated, or, it will never improve unless the global power balance is destroyed and re-built around humanist goals

The wording of the poll, i.m.o, makes the result meaningless.

Environmental politics is largely right-wing anti-humanism dressed up in middle-class neo-liberal PC language. The ramifications for humanity of this dominiant political outlook is a continuation of power relationships exactly as they are currently. In which case, the environment will continue to be a distraction for the masses, the real job of brutalising the third world and instigating a new fascism in the west will continue un-challenged.

And, yes, the environment will continue to worsen, but not, I suspect, for any reason that you might be thinking.

---------
Consensus in science?

The passengers on the Titanic shared a consensus on where they were going...

[KaiYeves]

I voted for better. Of course, it will take work, that's a given, but all of us on this blue dot are closer together now than we ever have been, and I think that, through co-operation, we can really make a change for the better.

[Doodler]

One of the few benefits of all the rampaging and political instability in the world right now is the nearly $100 a barrel price of oil.

Sustain that, and global warming dies a very natural death as alternatives become fiscally competitive.

I'll put a bet down that the oil based economy will collapse under the weight of its own paranoia and greed within 5 years of an invasion of Iran.

[Noclevername]

The question is overly simplistic. Better how? Worse how? With a population of six billion and growing, some aspects of "the environment" (another simplistic buzzword) --various interacting ecosystems, climate, hydrospheric dynamics, resource use, etc. --will be affected in ways that may negatively impact human life. Other aspects may become less affected, but until the population stabilizes, as well as industrial growth which is presently occuring unevenly but rapidly, we will always be having a destabilizing effect on the planet's various systems.

[Neverfly]

heh... Old thread...


NoCleverName, I think you used one particular word that hit the nail on the head.

Destabilization.

That is our legacy. We are the kings of the Broken Wheel. Through our technology, we throw the relative cog in the works simply by existing. No matter what we try to do, our efforts, for nature, will always be in vain.

We will always put humanities needs and desires before anything else.

We will always justify doing so.

We will always see ourselves as 'Top of the Food Chain' in spite of the fact that with the passing of time, we are becomming less and less predatorial and more and more scavenger.

We will always think that our technology can provide a 'cure' for the unraveling that we have started.

We want to have our cake and eat it too.

[antoniseb]

Environmental politics is largely right-wing anti-humanism dressed up in middle-class neo-liberal PC language.
We have rules against fomenting political debate on this forum. Whether what you are saying is true or not, it is not welcome here. Please make your case in a forum whose mission includes discussing politics, or finding ways to save the world. We are just about astronomy and spaceflight here.

[The_Radiation_Specialist]

Please make your case in a forum whose mission includes discussing politics

More like, any forum but BAUT.

;)

[badcop666]

I respect your rules, but, please, go to the top and read the title and choices of the poll.

Sounds a little political doesn't it? This thread should be empty if everyone is following the rules. Lips zipped shut.

I was sucked in by all the political discussion! You cheeky monkeys!

antoniseb, are you serious?!

Disappointing to say the least. Take a political topic and outlaw political discussion? Strikes me as strange.

Astronomy just happens to be the most fascinating component of the high-energy-particle-cloud-formation theory which currently stands diametrically opposed to the AGW industry, I came to these forums with this in mind.

Let me know if you're really that adverse to 'politics' - in my mind, that is similar to being averse to ...... breathing.

Best regards, best of intentions. Sorry if I 'fomented' you.

[Swift]

I respect your rules, but, please, go to the top and read the title and choices of the poll.

Sounds a little political doesn't it? This thread should be empty if everyone is following the rules. Lips zipped shut.

I was sucked in by all the political discussion! You cheeky monkeys!

antoniseb, are you serious?!

Disappointing to say the least. Take a political topic and outlaw political discussion? Strikes me as strange.

Astronomy just happens to be the most fascinating component of the high-energy-particle-cloud-formation theory which currently stands diametrically opposed to the AGW industry, I came to these forums with this in mind.

Let me know if you're really that adverse to 'politics' - in my mind, that is similar to being averse to ...... breathing.

Best regards, best of intentions. Sorry if I 'fomented' you.
The OP question was "Will the environment continue to get worse, or will it get better? ". That can be discussed from a technical standpoint, without the politics. It also was a four year old thread, and the interreptation of the rules may have changed a little since then.

A few pieces of advice. antoniseb is always serious in his role as moderator, and you might want to take him seriously. You might want to read the FAQs and the rules of this board. And if you have something in particuar to discuss, such as "high-energy-particle-cloud-formation theory", then start a thread to discuss it.

[antoniseb]

antoniseb, are you serious?!

Yes I'm serious... and I agree that the whole topic is questionable, but you in particular introduced the purple rhetoric. Please tone it down.

[closetgeek]

By "get worse" what do you mean? The climate is changing as it always has and will continue to change till the sun scorges our planet. Whether we destroy ourselves with our own technology or we adapt to climate change, we are not meant to be here forever. I hope that was free and clear of any politics.

Will the environment continue to get worse, or will it get better?