New moon over Kitty Hawk

[MAPNUT]

I was only half-watching this commercial, so please let me know if I got it wrong. It was for GE, talking about their jet engines, and features old footage of the Wright Brothers flying at Kitty Hawk. There was special effects footage of modern people and jet engines mixed in. It ended with a Wright-type biplane taking off from the sand dunes and heading out to sea, towards a huge crescent moon. At Kitty Hawk. North Carolina. Over the ocean. That would be the Atlantic Ocean. The moon was setting in the east.

I could be wrong (they could be right). They didn't say it wasn't the Pacific at the end, or it could have been before dawn, although all the other activity shown took place in daylight. But if it was supposed to be Kitty Hawk, why not a full moon? Admittedly the crescent moon made a beautiful image, but if you want to advertize how technically advanced your products are, why assume your audience doesn't know that the new moon sets in the west?

[kucharek]

How do you know it was setting?

[gethen]

A new moon would set in the west as well, but you wouldn't even see it, since a new moon is a dark moon. The moon sets in the west no matter what its phase--new, full, crescent, whatever. Why would a full moon make a difference, other than aesthetically?

[Donnie B.]

A new moon would set in the west as well, but you wouldn't even see it, since a new moon is a dark moon. The moon sets in the west no matter what its phase--new, full, crescent, whatever. Why would a full moon make a difference, other than aesthetically?
Presumably because only a full moon would rise in the East (over the Atlantic) as the sun was setting in the West.

I think we need to chalk this one up to artistic license. After all, the Wrights didn't have a turbojet strapped to the top of their Flyer, either! :lol:

At a guess, I'd say that the Wrights probably took off to the west, since the prevailing winds in the northern hemisphere are Westerlies. So maybe, in the commercial, they did take off to the west in Kitty Hawk but the jet was so powerful that they ended up over the Pacific at sunset.

If you're picking nits, why did they also have propellers on the Flyer if they had a GE jet engine? And rather slow-turning ones at that...

[Wally]

I think Mapnut's point is that a moon near the Eastern horizon during sunset is gonna be at or darn near to full, and not a cresent. Sounds like the makers of the commercial used some artistic licensing. Or, as suggested, the flight was taking place right before sunrise, in which case all is good and well. . .

[kucharek]

I'd use a sunrise, as the Wright flight was the dawn of a new era.

[MAPNUT]

All right, I looked up Kitty Hawk on Topozone.com, and there's a big lagoon to the west of the barrier island. So the plane in question took off to the west, over the lagoon, toward the setting crescent moon. Everything is kosher. Oh well, sure looked like an ocean to me.

Unless! The Wright brothers if I remember correctly, made their first flight just after dawn. In that case there could be a crescent moon rising out of the ocean, and you could say it's visible through artistic license even though the sun was already up - so as to say, someday we'll go there.

But if it was after dawn, the crescent was on the wrong side - toward the horizon!

I still say GE should have known their target audience would see something wrong with the moon.

[Ripper]

I just went to Kittyhawk a couple of months ago. The direction of the flight was to the North-East. I have no idea what phase the moon was in.

[gethen]

Mapnut, sorry, I guess I was missing your point, but I get it now. I thought you were suggesting that a full moon would have made a an eastern moonset acceptable. Should have known better. One more thing--Kitty Hawk is on a barrier island (the Outer Banks.) So there is a large body of water (something Sound) to the west as well, but if memory serves, the mainland is quite visible from Kitty Hawk. It's been a while since I climbed those dunes though.

[Ripper]

You are quite correct. You can see the mainland across the water. The thing is, the monument is highest point on the island, and you can't see the sound form there, though you can see the Atlantic. Of course you can no longer see the ocean form the site of the first flight because of all the build up.

I think I still have a few pictures on my harddrive at home. I will see if I can post them.

[Chip]

As an aside, there has been a recreational vehicle commercial running occasionally here in California, for a local dealer. The commercial shows a family playing on a beach near their new RV, with the (presumably) Pacific ocean stretching off to the horizon. There is a reddish glow in the sky from the sun, which has just (presumably) set, and above the sunset there sits a big bright Full Moon! Not only that, the full moon is very large. (A forced "moon illusion!")

I can only conclude either:

1. The enlarged full moon image was added by the commercial's art director for dramatic effect.
Or
2. These RVs are actually made on another planet within a binary system. The secondary star is rising illuminating the full moon just as the primary star sets. :wink:

[tracer]

I'd use a sunrise, as the Wright flight was the dawn of a new era.
But if you wanted to make it a crescent, it'd have to be a sunrise during a partial solar eclipse.

[mike alexander]

This one I can live with. The 'old footage' is obviously not really old. The jet engine is so hilariously anachronistic it just makes it cute (a fuel tank would also be welcome), the thing scoots off at a speed guaranteed to rip the wings off, and Johnny Cash is singing "visit the Man in the Moon' on voice over.

Perhaps Johnny has.

[kilopi]

Albermarle Sound. We discussed the outer banks, and the setting moon, before, in this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=6194&highlight=walk+remember#6194) .


I could be wrong (they could be right). They didn't say it wasn't the Pacific at the end, or it could have been before dawn, although all the other activity shown took place in daylight.
Daylight? While the sun is "up"?

But if it was after dawn, the crescent was on the wrong side - toward the horizon!
If it's daylight and the moon is a crescent on the horizon--it's fake no matter which direction you are looking. If the sun is not up, then it doesn't matter which direction you are looking--it might be just before dawn in the east, or just after sunset in the west, but it won't be daylight

[jamestox]

At a guess, I'd say that the Wrights probably took off to the west, since the prevailing winds in the northern hemisphere are Westerlies....

Actually, according to the layout of the First Flight markers I saw at the Wright memorial earlier this year, the takeoff was toward the Atlantic, roughly northeastward - and into a stiff 20 knot breeze coming off the ocean. However, on the back side of Kill Devil Hill (toward the west) is Ablemarle Sound which is pretty wide at places and might pass for the Pacific..?


So maybe, in the commercial, they did take off to the west in Kitty Hawk but the jet was so powerful that they ended up over the Pacific at sunset.

If you're picking nits, why did they also have propellers on the Flyer if they had a GE jet engine? And rather slow-turning ones at that...

Well.....the GE Turbofan plant is in Cincinnati, just down the road from the Wrights' home in Dayton, OH....


As for the "old footage"... the only "old footage" that exists for the Wrights' first flight is the famous still photograph of the Flyer lifting from the launch rail taken by John "Jack" Daniels - a member of the local lifesaving station in Kitty Hawk who was drafted by the brothers to take the picture if the flight succeeded. Daniels supposedly didn't know if he'd tripped the Wrights' camera shutter - and the brothers didn't know this picture (http://www.wam.umd.edu/~stwright/WrBr/wrights/photos/First_Flight.jpeg) existed until they processed it upon their return to Dayton. According to the Park Service program at the memorial, Mr. Daniels took the fifth and final flight with the Wright Flyer when a strong wind gust caught the Flyer he was helping to move...and he didn't let go. He emerged from the wreckage of the first plane crash merely bruised and dazed.

JT

edited to add the bit about the photo