More one-post homework wonders...

[mugaliens]

A friend of mine is a professor of collegiate-level astronomy and mathematics at a local university. He and I were talking about Baut one day, when he asked me, "What did you say was the name of that website?"

"BAUTFORUM," I replied.

"Oohhhh! I get answers from my students all the time from that website! I never look at it myself, but I usually downgrade them half a point for asking someone else instead of looking up the information themselves."

No kidding. His students call him, "Dr. K.," as his last name is close to impossible to pronounce.

Here's a couple of one-post "please do my homework for me" wonders now:

jsantoso (http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/76074-how-many-photons-cm-3-a.html#post1273216)
Number of posts: 1.
Join date: 29 Jun 08.
Post date: 29 Jun 08 at 6:05 pm.

shades171 (http://www.bautforum.com/questions-answers/75902-speed-light-questions.html#post1270435)
Number of posts: 1.
Join date: 25 Jun 08
Post date: 25 Jun 08 at 6:32 pm.

Commonalities to look for...

1. A username you've never seen before.
2. A join date that's on or very near the post date
3. Number of posts between 1 and 3
4. A question (or questions) that looks an awful lot like a question you would ask of someone in high school or the first two years of college.
5. A question (or questions) where the answer can be had in less than 60 seconds on either Wikipedia or Google.

Do these people (and the rest of us) a favor - help them avoid being downgraded by pointing them in the right direction rather than spoonfeeding them an answer. Remember, this is the generation that will be taking care of us in our old age. If we're unable to break them of their reliance on others now, they'll still be asking us for handouts while we're trying to watch Superbowl LIV rather than figuring out how to solve problems themselves.

[John Jones]

When I used to hang-out on USENET, we'd refer these posters (who were obviously looking for answers to test questions) to alt.test.

[Tobin Dax]

That photon density question sounded suspicious to me.
What class is this? These aren't the ordinary homework questions I see around here.

Oh, and 4 and 5 are the big criteria. 1, 2, and 3 fit every legit new member. :)

[Chris Hillman]

I'm not as confident as mugaliens that those are really homework questions, but I agree it's not unreasonable to suspect that they might be.

One possible response in such cases is something like this:



If those are homework questions, a very good resource is Homework & Coursework Questions ( http://www.physicsforums.com/forumdisplay.php?f=152) at Physics Forums (http://www.physicsforums.com/index.php).


The point is that HCQ has some pretty clear rules and the individuals who answer most of the questions are familiar with all the issues, and they are pretty good at trying to help the student learn rather than copying and pasting without learning.

If the answer is



Those arent homewrk questins! :liar:


and spelling and other clues suggest the OP isn't being truthtful, a possible response would be



HCQ is a very good resource for anything which closely resembles a homework question.

[Disinfo Agent]

"Oohhhh! I get answers from my students all the time from that website! I never look at it myself, but I usually downgrade them half a point for asking someone else instead of looking up the information themselves."In all fairness, what's the big difference between asking someone else, and "looking up" the information (i.e. "asking" a book)? Can he always tell whether his students know things because they looked them up in the reference books, or because somebody told them? I doubt it.

Having said this, I agree that we should be wary of very specific questions that might be homework assignments.

[Chris Hillman]

In all fairness, what's the big difference between asking someone else, and "looking up" the information (i.e. "asking" a book)?


A good college professor tries to assign questions for which canned answers are not already available on-line.



Having said this, I agree that we should be wary of very specific questions that might be homework assignments.


Good, I think we all agree.

Some clues I've noticed which suggest homework:

writing style of posted questions is different from style of n00b inquirer (e.g. better English); this may suggest that the OP simply copied the questions verbatim from his homework assignment,
level or creativity of posted questions contrasted with an apparently rather dull inquirer may suggest a chronically lost student cheating out of desperation or laziness,
those of us who have written college level homework questions can often recognize a college level homework question as such, even if written in another subject by another individual.

[Kaptain K]

In all fairness, what's the big difference between asking someone else, and "looking up" the information...

Information you find for yourself "sticks" better than if it is just handed to you!

[Ronald Brak]

Information you find for yourself "sticks" better than if it is just handed to you!

Judgeing by the sort of things that go on in a thread that starts with answering even the simplest of questions, a lot of sticking might occur once a student wades through it.

[BigDon]

Just look at my small (to me) questions in Q and A that had answers huger than I expected.

Three that stick out at the moment were my questions on the Uncertainty Principle, "geostationary" orbits on the Moon and what would happen if you peeled off the Sun's mantle, exposing the core.

I would accepted, no, no, and ouch. Instead I got real explainations! That, like, jib with real science!

[BigDon]

As a child of the sixties, do you know how cool that is?

[Tinaa]

I would say that the explanations offered from many of our members are better than what books or web sites say because they are interactive.

[Tucson_Tim]

I think that folks who want to answer a question should just go ahead and answer the question, be it a response to a one-time poster looking for a homework answer or not. The answers benefit many others, myself included.

[Swift]

Commonalities to look for...

1. A username you've never seen before.
2. A join date that's on or very near the post date
3. Number of posts between 1 and 3
4. A question (or questions) that looks an awful lot like a question you would ask of someone in high school or the first two years of college.
5. A question (or questions) where the answer can be had in less than 60 seconds on either Wikipedia or Google.

I would suggest NOT judging that someone is asking a homework question by just points 1 to 3. That is characteristic of anyone who comes here to get a question answered, such as someone who sees something that don't understand in the sky, or is quickly trying to respond to a hoax-loving co-worker, etc.

I suspect a lot of the one-post "wonders" are just people innocently looking for some answers, not trying to cheat on their homework.

[Jeff Root]

mugaliens,

The two examples you gave are very obviously -- to me -- NOT homework
questions. I'm so sure of that that I would bet any part of my body on it.
Yes, even THAT part. No teacher or textbook would ask such questions.

The relativity questions are nonsensical to anyone who understands SR,
and the questions about number of photons can't be answered without
specifying a lot of conditions.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Jeff Root]

In reading Disinfo Agent's post above, I'm reminded of the time that I was
helping a neighbor study for his GED (high school equivalent diploma).
He showed me a paragraph he had written out for his history course.
If I recall correctly (which I probably don't -- this was in the 1970's),
it was about the creation of Israel in 1948. I told him it one of the best
examples of writing I had ever seen. He misunderstood me and thought
I was talking about his penmanship. I meant that he had done a superb
job of summarizing in a very short paragraph a complex historical event
that must have filled most of a page in his textbook.

I didn't say that, though, because he showed me his textbook from which
he had copied the paragraph. That one measly, dinky little paragraph was
all his textbook had to say on the creation of Israel. Well, it was a good
executive summary.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Kaptain K]

I seem to be in the minority here, but if I have to look up the answer (if for no other reason than to make sure I get it right) I'll be damned if I'll just hand it over! I will give the web page where I found it and let them go look for themselves.

[John Mendenhall]

Even if it's a homework question, this might not be a bad place educationally to get get an answer. If enough people post, the OP has to sift through multiple answers to figure out the best ones.

[Gillianren]

How is asking here different from asking someone who already took the class? And how would the teacher distinguish between the two?

[Moose]

I seem to be in the minority here, but if I have to look up the answer (if for no other reason than to make sure I get it right) I'll be damned if I'll just hand it over! I will give the web page where I found it and let them go look for themselves.

I've said it before: sometimes a web page is written in a way you can understand, but someone else might not be able to. Wikipedia has several pages on algorithms that I've found useful from time to time, but wikipedia (correctly) uses math notation that I have never been able to understand properly. I've always had trouble with sigma-notation. I can work through it, eventually, but it requires a great deal of effort, and I don't get much out of it.

Having someone able to render that down into math-layperson's terms, and where I have the ability to ask follow-up questions where I need clarification or additional information, is pure gold.

Sometimes, many times, I need some discussion before I can understand exactly what it is I'm not understanding, and what questions I should be asking.

Right now, I'm working on getting a better working understanding of .Net. I have books to hand. They're mostly junk. So far, they've all been some combination of severely outdated, Mickey Mouse, utterly disorganized, and/or focusing on the wrong things entirely. (Part of the problem is Microsoft's environment itself, so I'm not completely condemning the authors, but still...)

What I wouldn't give to shoulder-surf someone, just once, who can walk me through setting up a project and provide some context.

[Swift]

I've said it before: sometimes a web page is written in a way you can understand, but someone else might not be able to.
...
Having someone able to render that down into math-layperson's terms, and where I have the ability to ask follow-up questions where I need clarification or additional information, is pure gold.

Sometimes, many times, I need some discussion before I can understand exactly what it is I'm not understanding, and what questions I should be asking.

I agree. And further, sometimes having a couple of different people explain it in slightly different ways is very helpful too.

I'll also throw in one other thought. It appears that some members don't want to answer people's questions, for a variety of reasons. Then don't. Others are happy to pick up the slack, if they can. Don't go looking in Q&A if you don't want to deal with it. I don't see a reason to shutdown Q&A or change anything that's going on there. This doesn't seem to me to be a problem that needs any fixing.

[schlaugh]

I've also noticed that some of the questions seemed intended to make the student reason through the problem and avoid seeking a pat answer. And that's a good thing as the ability to think something through is probably more (maybe much more) important than the subject being studied. Certainly it's a more useful life skill than just knowing the number of protons in the multiverse.

I've liked answers on BAUT that challenged the apparent student to dig into the problem by decomposing it into more elementary components and to work through each one. That is, to reach a conclusion based on reasoning as well as facts and findings.

[Fazor]

Now, what do we do about 3,000+ post-wonders, looking for homework answers?

And on a side note, I have a...um...friend, who is leaving Harbor Shores, WI on a train. Coincidentally, the friend's aunt is leaving on a train from Greenville, Pa. Both are heading to Vegas. If her train is traveling.... oh wait. Nevermind.

;)

Okay in seriousness, I've seen people who are obviously fishing for an easy answer to a homework or test question. And I've seen people who are just confused, and seeking the correct path. I think we're all pretty good at distinguishing the two. Just keep in mind that if it's the former, try to be polite. Even if you think they're a lazy cheater, other's also read the posts, so forum etiquette is still important. Also, you may be wrong about the poster...I know I'm not the only one who's made myself look like a horse's behind because I got the wrong first impression.

[tofu]

oh that's nothing, you should see yahoo answers. Here's an example (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=AiCAmMHBIkagQ3jkjSyvpU39xQt.;_ylv=3?qid =20080701203257AAP3uus) of someone who is not only asking a homework question, but also: 1) he apparently typed the question verbatim from the assignment, complete with multiple choice answers. 2) he is so lazy that he didn't even proofread what he typed. 3) he was too lazy to even create a meaningful subject line - instead, he just started typing the homework question the subject input box, and when he ran out of room he continued in the question area.

youtube and yahoo answers make me weep for humanity.

Here's someone who didn't even bother to ask the question (http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index;_ylt=Ashl5IJCu0gOq58ZGZymlYT9xQt.;_ylv=3?qid =20080701170754AA7SCup), but they expect an answer.

[mugaliens]

I've read all your answers - thank you for taking the time to respond.

Interestingly, a good friend of mine is a professor of astronomy and math. He's not a member, here, but he routinely checks here and has caught a number of his students cheating by asking questions here on Baut, so...

...so I'm not shooting blanks when I raise the issue of "one-post-homework-wonders."

Secondly, if students want to cheat by posting here rather than looking up the information themselves, I'm all for that. There's nothing like laziness to create an inferior final product and thus pave the way for those of us who put forth more effort! Not only do they wind up knowing less than they would if they'd looked up their question themselves, but by answering their question, I wind up knowing more!

[Moose]

Interestingly, a good friend of mine is a professor of astronomy and math. He's not a member, here, but he routinely checks here and has caught a number of his students cheating by asking questions here on Baut, so...

Asking questions relating to a homework assignment (that aren't the homework question verbatim) isn't cheating. It's a sign that the student doesn't understand the material sufficiently well to do the homework. While it may be a problem with the student, it may well also be a sign that the lecture was insufficiently clear or thorough.

I'm not casting aspersions at your professor friend, but I have been in a few situations where I've had to supplement a useless lecture. (Sometimes an insurmountable language barrier, sometimes a teacher who simply couldn't.)

[chrissy]

I have been holding back from this thread since you started it Mugs.

I thought this site was here to help when someone had questions they need answering, Mugs if you don't want to respond to a newbie don't, you already made one or two leave because they asked a civil question.
Does it matter if it is a homework question? I just shows that they are using their initiative, it is obvious they don't want to go to a cheat site, but want other peoples opinions.
We all ask questions here, I know you don't like it when they don't have a high post count, but we all had to start from (0) EVEN YOU.
Newbies have the right on baut to ask questions as everyone else and given a chance, as there are people here who can help/advise them on certain problems.
Yes I know there are some who just post once and go, but there are many on here who have been here quite some time and have a low post count too. ;)

[Neverfly]

That issue, Chrissy, is because we ask questions for the sake of learning the answer. If a blatant homework question is posted, that person asking won't always learn the answer. They will copy the answer.

A student asking a homework question in order to understand that question is a different matter.

[Moose]

That issue, Chrissy, is because we ask questions for the sake of learning the answer. If a blatant homework question is posted, that person asking won't always learn the answer. They will copy the answer.

Yes, and it's possible to deal with this situation without giving off the appearance of the entire site being newbie-hostile. I believe this was the central theme of several other of your recent posts, Nev.


A student asking a homework question in order to understand that question is a different matter.

Yes. And either way, one can walk the newbie through the problem without doing their homework for them, and in such a way so as to not drive off legitimate newbies in the process.

Rant threads such as this one leave a horrendous impression.

Edit to add:

There's a gaming site I do unofficial mentoring for. We have a rule posted just below the thread title that posts asking for serial codes are prohibited. Every now and again we get one anyway. They're annoying, but we don't rip anybody's head off over it, considering 75%+ of our board's participation is newbie driven.

"Sorry, we can't [give you a serial number/do your homework for you/help you with that]. You'll need to talk to [EA technical support/your professor or TA/someone elsewhere] for that." Feel free to copy/paste if you like.

[chrissy]

But when someone replies they always get the full explination to how they come to this result, and they do learn and understand.
Going to a cheat site just for answers to a question would work a lot better if this was the case and they didn't want to learn.
Encouragement to continue with baut is what is needed, not blow them off because a question is asked, some people ask questions because they want to know the answer and not because they are a student wanting homework helps.


A student asking a homework question in order to understand that question is a different matter.

^^^^I think you answered my point already Neverfly.^^^^ ;)

[Neverfly]

Yes, and it's possible to deal with this situation without giving off the appearance of the entire site being newbie-hostile. I believe this was the central theme of several other of your recent posts, Nev.



Yes. And either way, one can walk the newbie through the problem without doing their homework for them, and in such a way so as to not drive off legitimate newbies in the process.

Rant threads such as this one leave a horrendous impression.

This is true too. I agree with the premise that Mugaliens is communicating, I don't necessarily agree with his method.

[chrissy]

I think there should be a homework help thread, for those who genuinly want it, a kind of walk through talk through for them to understand, so that those of us who know what we are talking about can respond without upsetting the others.

[Neverfly]

I think there should be a homework help thread, for those who genuinly want it, a kind of walk through talk through for them to understand, so that those of us who know what we are talking about can respond without upsetting the others.

What- a sticky?
Many can't even find the introduce yourself thread:p - Self Included.

[chrissy]

ROTFLMAO! :P

Yeah! a sticky would be good, it's funny that others who pose a question can do it and know what to do. ;)
It would be more functional than filling the board with too many new threads for students.

[mahesh]

Sage requests / suggestions chrissy! Totally agree.

As the eminent doctor Louis Jean Pastuer once said, " Chance favours the prepared mind" !

Oh, the milk of human kindness!

There are so many selfless BAUTers, who share their expertise / knowledge / fruit of their labour, with us others here, it's wonderful to be here and learn. I thank them all.

Enlightening younger generation is important. How else to 'ignite' their curiousity and truly make them sparkle later on in their lives?

Catkins and Acorns and Oak trees.

ps: what does 'ROTFLMAO' stand for?....er, and i am not being too lazy to look it up!

[ABR.]

ps: what does 'ROTFLMAO' stand for?....er, and i am not being too lazy to look it up!

Really Old Teacher Finds Laughter May Alleviate Obesity

ETA: Oops. I was going to link to the abbreviation list to give you the real meaning, but it wasn't there. I'll start you off: Rolling on the floor laughing my...I think you can take it from there!

[mahesh]

thanks ABR.

[Tobin Dax]

Rolling on the floor laughing my...
". . . adenoids out", obviously.

[mahesh]

.....and here i am, thinking it's 'arms out'!

[geonuc]

I think I'm with chrissy on this one. While mugs' point is undoubtedly correct - students use BAUT to answer questions - why is that our concern? People ask a question, we answer it. (OK, others here answer it. I don't know enough to answer most of them.)

How can we do otherwise? Demand evidence they aren't students trying to get easy answers to homework questions?

[Tobin Dax]

I think I'm with chrissy on this one. While mugs' point is undoubtedly correct - students use BAUT to answer questions - why is that our concern? People ask a question, we answer it. (OK, others here answer it. I don't know enough to answer most of them.)

How can we do otherwise? Demand evidence they aren't students trying to get easy answers to homework questions?

Why is it our concern? Because we are the people answering these questions and helping students to learn. At least, we should be helping these students to learn. Flat-out giving them the answer doesn't do that.
I don't want to fall back on the "give a man a fish" line, but that's what it is. Give the answer to the student, and they can give an answer to that question. Show them how to answer that question, and they can answer many others.

We don't need to do anything ridiculous like "demand proof," but we don't need to do more than guide anyone (possible student or not) through a problem.

[chrissy]

Yes, but you don't do it to regulars who ask a question on something, just that newbies who ask a simple question, a lot think it is a homework question get blown away.
I thought the whole point of this board is to help others, like I said previously, if you don't want to respond to a question "don't answer it" simple solution!

[Van Rijn]

I think I'm with chrissy on this one. While mugs' point is undoubtedly correct - students use BAUT to answer questions - why is that our concern? People ask a question, we answer it. (OK, others here answer it. I don't know enough to answer most of them.)


Going back to BABB days there has been an unwritten rule that if you think someone is asking a homework question, give them hints, but don't give them straight out answers. I think that's a good rule. Naturally, we aren't going to be able to determine all the homework questions. Oh, well, so we miss some. There's no need to be paranoid.



How can we do otherwise? Demand evidence they aren't students trying to get easy answers to homework questions?

No, that would be unreasonable, but sometimes I will ask the question in thread ("Is this a homework question?" or something similar) if I suspect a question is for school. Sometimes there is an honest answer, which can actually help the student as the thread continues, and is a message to other BAUT members about what I suspect.

[geonuc]

Why is it our concern? Because we are the people answering these questions and helping students to learn. At least, we should be helping these students to learn. Flat-out giving them the answer doesn't do that.
I don't want to fall back on the "give a man a fish" line, but that's what it is. Give the answer to the student, and they can give an answer to that question. Show them how to answer that question, and they can answer many others.

We don't need to do anything ridiculous like "demand proof," but we don't need to do more than guide anyone (possible student or not) through a problem.
What you say is undoubtedly good advice for a teacher, which I understand you are. But I'm not a teacher, at least not professionally, nor are most of the people here. And we're certainly not here in the capacity of teachers except in the broadest sense of sharing knowledge.

It's interesting that you added quotation marks around demand proof, which implies attribution to my post. I actually wrote demand evidence.

[geonuc]

There's no need to be paranoid.
What an odd statement. Do you think one of us is paranoid about something?

[jlhredshift]

Please, when asked a question, answer it or not. It is not our job to decide if the person is lazy or not or make any other judgements about that person, i.e. why be judgemental. Don't try to read more into it than what is on the surface. If they have an ulterior motive it will show itself soon enough and the Mod's do a good job.

Besides, if the question of 2+2=? comes up, the answer in response will probably be 3.99999999999.........(sarcastic humor).

(serious) If we eliminated all questions that have been discussed before, traffic on this board would be greatly reduced. I'm sure that is not our goal.

[Moose]

What an odd statement. Do you think one of us is paranoid about something?

I can't speak for Van Rijn, of course, but I took that to mean: "Let's not worry about the possibility of a 'do my homework for me' newbie so much that 'we' fret ourselves to the bone over it."

Sage advice, IMO, and something I think mugs should take firmly to heart before he feels the need to wind himself up for another rant-and-run.

[Fazor]

I can't speak for Van Rijn, of course, but I took that to mean: "Let's not worry about the possibility of a 'do my homework for me' newbie so much that 'we' fret ourselves to the bone over it."

Sage advice, IMO, and something I think mugs should take firmly to heart before he feels the need to wind himself up for another rant-and-run.

I agree with that take on it. It's frustraiting...but it's best not to worry about it too much. I'd rather help 1 honest person and have 5 "cheaters" than not help anyone.

...fortunately my knowlege is limited enough to where I'm not typically answering these kinds of questions anyway ;)

[Van Rijn]

I can't speak for Van Rijn, of course, but I took that to mean: "Let's not worry about the possibility of a 'do my homework for me' newbie so much that 'we' fret ourselves to the bone over it."


Yes, that was my point. This isn't the first time Mugs started a thread over this, or the first time we've discussed it.

[chrissy]

It is the first time I have got involved with this kind of rant discussion, and I have still held back on what I really want to add, if there is a sticky for homework questions, and helpful hints on how to understand the problem for them by members who do want to help is better than having millions of new threads opening up and will save mugs from starting yet another thread about "homework questions".
Yes I agree we shouldn't encourage cheating, but helping those who ask for it shouldn't be an excuse for "a pick on the newbie". We do not want to give people the wrong impression when they join BAUT.
IMO there should be a rule for new comers, I think mugs did say this before somewhere, a minimum of 10 posts before a thread question is opened by them and if it is a homework question to go to the sticky and pose it there. Those who can or want to help reply to them.
But starting a rant thread is not the way to go to give an impression of how we all feel about the "new kid in the class" treatment. :(

[mahesh]

Due to Tinaa's math question, in another thread, I somehow gravitated to the Physics Forums (sic). They have structured the board with these specific folders / areas, about 'homework assistance', etc., to answer / guide / inspire.....

Incidentally, I joined today....might mitigate my acute fright of complex math..shiver....shiver

[geonuc]

Yes, that was my point. This isn't the first time Mugs started a thread over this, or the first time we've discussed it.
Alrighty then. But next time, I wish you wouldn't quote one of my posts and then throw in a 'paranoid' comment. Gets a guy to thinking as to what you mean. ;)

[Moose]

Alrighty then. But next time, I wish you wouldn't quote one of my posts and then throw in a 'paranoid' comment. Gets a guy to thinking as to what you mean. ;)

Yeah, 'cause even paranoids get baffled. (grins/ducks/runs!)

[Van Rijn]

Alrighty then. But next time, I wish you wouldn't quote one of my posts and then throw in a 'paranoid' comment. Gets a guy to thinking as to what you mean. ;)

I'll try to keep that in mind. :) It was not intended as any comment on you. In fact, that didn't even occur to me. It was just one of those things that could have been phrased better.

[Neverfly]

I'll try to keep that in mind. :) It was not intended as any comment on you. In fact, that didn't even occur to me. It was just one of those things that could have been phrased better.

If he wasn't so paranoid he would have realized that.

[geonuc]

Sometimes, people really are out to get you. :shifty:

[Neverfly]

Sometimes, people really are out to get you. :shifty:

Not 'People.'



.








.





Me.:neutral:

[mugaliens]

I think there should be a homework help thread, for those who genuinly want it, a kind of walk through talk through for them to understand, so that those of us who know what we are talking about can respond without upsetting the others.

That's an excellent idea!

I second your motion.

[mugaliens]

If he wasn't so paranoid he would have realized that.

Whenever people call me paranoid, I say, "thank you."

It's because I know they're black hats, and am sure they're just testing me, and if I goof I'll be whisked away, gone in a flash, never to be seen again!


Or, perhaps not.

[mugaliens]

Another one just hit the board...

[chrissy]

Don't treat every newbie as a student mugs. :)

It is like a child watching to see how many flies hit the windscreen. :p