How would a bodybuilder fare against a male silverback gorilla?

[Ross PK81]

Well, these silverbacks are real real big, they're supposed to be really strong as well. A normal guy wouldn't have a chance against one, in fact the other day in a newspaper it shown a tourist getting dragged away across the floor by a silver back.

So how would a bodybuilder fare? Is it possible for a human to equally match a male silverback gorilla?

http://www.taurai.co.zw/wwwimages/bodybuilder.jpg

http://www.mongabay.com/images/gabon/600/gabon_1805.JPG

[Kaptain K]

No contest! Any adult (male or female) chimpanzee or orangutan much less a gorilla could tear any human limb from limb!

ETA: In 1924, the Bronx Zoo tested grip strength. The best any human could do was 210 pounds (160 lb. male). A 120 lb. female chimp did 1260 lbs.! :eek:

[Neverfly]

The OP suggests a weight for weight- size of muscle comparison.

Which makes Kaptain K dead on. In such a case it has to do with more than just how big one is, but the way the muscles work and use energy, the ligaments and the bone structure.
A simple chimp can squeeze your hand and crush it. No human can do that. A chimp (If I recall correctly) can squeeze to about 1200 lbs of pressure where as a human can only max out at a couple hundred or so.
Secondly, a body builder can heft weight, but can they do serious work with those muscles?
(ETA: Kaptain K did an ETA too confirming my vague memory. ROCK! My Alzheimer's isn't advanced yet!:D )
Let's consider a brawny powerful man that wasn't a body builder per say but a hard worker, seasoned under hard labor. Can he match a silverbacks strength? No. Can he beat a silverback? Yes. And under the right circumstances- so can you or I.

The human still has the advantage in spite of the silverbacks greater strength.

The same advantage we have had all along that led us to dominance on the planet.

Big Strong Brain.


A fast, powerful seasoned human fighter can even give a silver back a run for his money.
The gorilla has a lot of brute force but the human fighter can employ martial arts, strategy and quick attacks to avoid getting his arms yanked out of their sockets and still do damage to the gorilla.

Simply put, even the average Joe has a chance.

How so?
Because these things have happened. Many folks were in trouble, but some of the quicker thinkers managed to fight off their attackers.
I mentioned in another thread about the 73 year old jogger who singlehandedly defeated a 6 foot long (Not including the tail) mountain lion in hand to paw combat.

I recall watching a baboon on the Discovery channel do similar- fighting off three hungry leopards.

Determination, survival instinct and quick wits can do wonders even when outmatched.

[Ronald Brak]

That body builder certainly looks as strong as a gorilla.

Humans and gorillias have different kinds of strengths. Humans can make quick movements and can throw, stab and punch and kick. Gorillas aren't as fast, but once they get their hands on you, their more efficiently levered joints will enable them to exert much more strength than an comparably muscled human. So the moral is, don't try to wrestle a gorilla.

I'd advise any weightlifter who might want to try to fight a gorilla to buy him a beer instead. You probably have a lot in common and might end up the best of friends.

[Neverfly]

How much weight is that body builder holding in that picture anyway?:shifty:

Ronald Brak, good point!:D

[Ross PK81]

That body builder certainly looks as strong as a gorilla.

Humans and gorillias have different kinds of strengths. Humans can make quick movements and can throw, stab and punch and kick. Gorillas aren't as fast, but once they get their hands on you, their more efficiently levered joints will enable them to exert much more strength than an comparably muscled human. So the moral is, don't try to wrestle a gorilla.

I'd advise any weightlifter who might want to try to fight a gorilla to buy him a beer instead. You probably have a lot in common and might end up the best of friends.

Hey I'm a weightlifter, and I like beer too. No need to get fresh. :lol:

[Noclevername]

Bodybuilders concentrate on appearance, not combat skills. A fairer match would be gorilla vs. a human combat expert, say a SEAL or a martial artist.

[Neverfly]

Hey I'm a weightlifter, and I like beer too. No need to get fresh. :lol:

I've seen your picture. You are about the same size as me. Light haired too... Someone else happened to comment on it- we look somewhat vaguely similar:think:

[Kaptain K]

You guys can say what you will, but in hand to hand combat my money is on the gorilla unless the human has a Desert Eagle .50 in each hand!

[novaderrik]

at my last job- building wooden trusses for houses and industrial buildings- the most worthless workers were the body building guys that have big arms and 6 pack abs.. they tended to whine the most about aches and pains at the end of a 12 hour shift throwing 20 foot 2X8's and 2X10's around. they also had the most trouble actually picking things up. apparently, they don't lift too many pieces of lumber at the gym. of course, the cornfed farm boys outworked everyone...
meanwhile, we had 140 pound guys that could lift as much as the 200+ pound body builders, and never complain about hurting at the end of the shift.
so, in conclusion, i think a small orangutan would kill the average "body builder", whereas a smaller guy that's good with focusing his energy and keeping his distance will fight a silverback to at least a draw under the right conditions.

[Tucson_Tim]

This has been discussed before:

http://www.bautforum.com/general-science/46198-what-makes-chimpanzees-so-strong.html

[Tucson_Tim]

at my last job- building wooden trusses for houses and industrial buildings- the most worthless workers were the body building guys that have big arms and 6 pack abs.. they tended to whine the most about aches and pains at the end of a 12 hour shift throwing 20 foot 2X8's and 2X10's around. they also had the most trouble actually picking things up. apparently, they don't lift too many pieces of lumber at the gym. of course, the cornfed farm boys outworked everyone...
meanwhile, we had 140 pound guys that could lift as much as the 200+ pound body builders, and never complain about hurting at the end of the shift.
so, in conclusion, i think a small orangutan would kill the average "body builder", whereas a smaller guy that's good with focusing his energy and keeping his distance will fight a silverback to at least a draw under the right conditions.

I agree. Most large (220+ lbs) body builders, power-lifters, and olympic-style lifters are way too slow - too much body mass - although the olympic-style lifters are the fastest due to the explosive nature of their lifts (snatch and clean-and-jerk). Also, as the body weight of a lifter increases the strength-per-pound decreases. As the weight classes get lighter (198, 181, 165, 148, 132, etc) the guys get much stronger per pound. I've known 148 pounders who could clean-and jerk 350+ lbs which is well over twice body weight. Another proof of this is tug-of-war contests, which usually limit both teams to a total body weight: The team that has 15 smaller guys will beat the team that has 10 large guys every time, even though the total body weight for each team is the same.

[Neverfly]

at my last job- building wooden trusses for houses and industrial buildings- the most worthless workers were the body building guys that have big arms and 6 pack abs.. they tended to whine the most about aches and pains at the end of a 12 hour shift throwing 20 foot 2X8's and 2X10's around. they also had the most trouble actually picking things up. apparently, they don't lift too many pieces of lumber at the gym. of course, the cornfed farm boys outworked everyone...
meanwhile, we had 140 pound guys that could lift as much as the 200+ pound body builders, and never complain about hurting at the end of the shift.
so, in conclusion, i think a small orangutan would kill the average "body builder", whereas a smaller guy that's good with focusing his energy and keeping his distance will fight a silverback to at least a draw under the right conditions.

Same here. That's why I said what I said in my first post about a labor guy;)

I dunno... These guys have the stamina to repeatedly lift heavy weights in the gym... But try to get them to do an honest days hard work and they act like you are trying to get them to build a cathedral in a week.

ETA: Tucson_Tim.. Jinx.

[Kaptain K]

After further contemplation, I will admit that after months (or maybe years) of special training about the strengths and weaknesses of "great apes", a martial arts expert might have a 50-50 chance against a chimp and maybe one in ten against a gorilla.

[Noclevername]

You guys can say what you will, but in hand to hand combat my money is on the gorilla unless the human has a Desert Eagle .50 in each hand!

That's hand to gun combat.

[publius]

Work smart, not hard. :) That applies to just about everything. There are little tricks you learn that make things a bit easier, and let you get more done with less effort. Any time I do something that I haven't done in a long time, say using the example above of building something and having to toss lumber around and nail it down and all that stuff, I am amazed at how slow I am at first, and how sore I am afterwards. Do it long enough and I soon get back in the groove and get faster and less sore.

If you've been doing task A and then switch to B, you use your muscles differently, and exert different muscles more and less than before. The muscles you're using more in the new task get sore. It takes time to adjust, and time for your brain to adjust to the new "algorithm". Once it gets it the pattern of movement down pat, you do it without thinking. You learn the task B algorithm and promptly displace the task A algorithm, if you don't switch back and forth.

A funny story about this is from my college days. A buddy of mine there was on one of these physical fitness kicks, working out and trying to get some hunk body to make become a chick magnet. You know the type, I'm sure. He was always telling me how out of shape I was and how I ought to work out and all that crap.

I told him that back home I did real work, not play work at some gym, and he wouldn't last 5 minutes trying to do real work. He came home with me one weekend, just when we had to clean out an old grain bin that had no sweep auger in it. When the level got nearly to the bottom, you had to get in there and shovel the last bit out. The last bit was about 500 bushels roughly, and it was hard work. And hot and dusty.

Well, I put him in there with me and some others. He lasted about 15 minutes. Soaked in sweat with a layer of dust stuck to it, he crawled out, panting, went to the water hose and gulped down a bit, then just crashed and lay on the ground for another 15 - 20 minutes. :lol:

Told you so, I said later. He never got on me about working out again.

His trouble was he had never shoveled grain before and worked himself into a tizzy, yet doing very little actual output. The ratio of his effort to grain moved was much greater than mine. There's a knack to shoveling it, and a knack to walking in grain. As you walk, your legs sink in up to your shins and knees and you'll expend a lot of energy just trying to move around until you get the knack of it.

Had he known all that and learned how, he probably could've outworked me.

-Richard

[Ross PK81]

I've seen your picture. You are about the same size as me. Light haired too... Someone else happened to comment on it- we look somewhat vaguely similar:think:

Really? I've never had my picture up on here before, except that I did use a picture of me for my avatar for about 1 minute.

And you're right, I have light hair too.

You can see my build in this pic, bear in mind I used to be really skinny. I think my build is actually bigger now though.

http://www.geocities.com/rosspk0/57630742745d8b0fee4414.jpg

[Kaptain K]

That's hand to gun combat.
Make that hand to handgun combat.
All's fair in love and war! :whistle:

[Neverfly]

Really? I've never had my picture up on here before, except that I did use a picture of me for my avatar for about 1 minute.

And you're right, I have light hair too.

You can see my build in this pic, bear in mind I used to be really skinny. I think my build is actually bigger now though.

http://www.geocities.com/rosspk0/57630742745d8b0fee4414.jpg

It's a complicated tale...

But my name is Ross. When you first joined the forum was during the time I was on suspension and you saw "BANNED" next to my name.

Several people had thought that I had made a sock puppet and asked me if you - were me:p

A quick google of your Nickname produced your posts on other forums as well- and that is where I saw your picture.

Your comparison...
http://www.geocities.com/rosspk0/57630742745d8b0fee4414.jpg

[Occam]

The gorilla would tear that guys head off and do things to his neck that I'm not at liberty to say here

[Tucson_Tim]

The gorilla would tear that guys head off and do things to his neck that I'm not at liberty to say here

Agreed. I'd even pay to watch - one less narcissistic body-builder.

[Jens]

I mentioned in another thread about the 73 year old jogger who singlehandedly defeated a 6 foot long (Not including the tail) mountain lion in hand to paw combat.


First of all, not in direct response to this, but we also have to remember that gorillas have longer claws and teeth than we do. So it's not just the muscles. I wouldn't want to get bitten by one of them.

Then, in response to Neverfly, I think there's more than just brains. A predator always have to make a choice. There's this piece of meat in front of me. But how troublesome will it be to get it? Is it going to kick me back? There are some rabbits over there -- they're easier to kill, and if I get enough of them. . . So with the old man and the cougar, it was not a question of a fight to the death. The cougar didn't have to fight him. It chose to try an attack, and perhaps was surprised at the ferocity of the response and decided it wasn't worth the effort. I remember seeing a video of a fairly small cougar fighting off a grizzly bear, which I think would have easily destroyed her if it had seriously wanted to. But the cougar was defending her cubs, ferociously, and the bear just gave up.

[Neverfly]

Then, in response to Neverfly, I think there's more than just brains. A predator always have to make a choice. There's this piece of meat in front of me. But how troublesome will it be to get it? Is it going to kick me back? There are some rabbits over there -- they're easier to kill, and if I get enough of them. . . So with the old man and the cougar, it was not a question of a fight to the death. The cougar didn't have to fight him. It chose to try an attack, and perhaps was surprised at the ferocity of the response and decided it wasn't worth the effort. I remember seeing a video of a fairly small cougar fighting off a grizzly bear, which I think would have easily destroyed her if it had seriously wanted to. But the cougar was defending her cubs, ferociously, and the bear just gave up.

True, but in this particular case the mountain lion attacked the jogger and got its tongue ripped out. It 'gave up the fight' because it was more than incapacitated and death was imminent.

[clop]

I think gorillas, in common with many other animals, do most of their fighting without ever touching each other - they size each other up, trying to figure out whether they have a chance at winning or whether they're going to lose. If they think they're going to lose they just run away. After all, they don't have their pride to think about like humans do, animals are mainly interested in not being seriously injured or killed.

So I wonder about a real fight between the bodybuilder and the gorilla - would the gorilla look at that guy and worry about losing? The gorilla might not want to get involved in the first place.

clop

[lek]

So I wonder about a real fight between the bodybuilder and the gorilla - would the gorilla look at that guy and worry about losing? The gorilla might not want to get involved in the first place.

clop


Maybe he would look at those ridiculous short arms and die of laughter? :D

[novaderrik]

I think gorillas, in common with many other animals, do most of their fighting without ever touching each other - they size each other up, trying to figure out whether they have a chance at winning or whether they're going to lose. If they think they're going to lose they just run away. After all, they don't have their pride to think about like humans do, animals are mainly interested in not being seriously injured or killed.

So I wonder about a real fight between the bodybuilder and the gorilla - would the gorilla look at that guy and worry about losing? The gorilla might not want to get involved in the first place.

clop
i've seen a few Discovery Channel shows about apes and monkeys and what not, and when they do fight with each other, the loser is generally seen as inferior by the rest of the group, and as such, is shunned. which is just a simple way to say that they had no respect for him any more. i've seen the same in shows about lions, and tigers, and maybe even bears (oh my).
as humans, we like to think that what we do is more "evolved" than what goes on in the animal kingdom, but in reality, it's usually the same thing- only we have names for it...

[Tucson_Tim]

Some info from wiki:



Adult male gorillas range in height from 165-175 cm (5 ft 5 in – 5 ft 9 in), and in weight from 140–200 kg (310–440 lb). Occasionally, a silverback of over 183 cm (6 ft) and 225 kg (500 lb) has been recorded in the wild.


A human may not be able to win against a gorilla but I know that humans can run faster than a cheetah. It's on the internet so it must be true:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iXRCYnufYlc

Here is a human vs gorilla video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SOUZ8eGYLIY

[Delvo]

Even at the same weight, the gorilla would still have advantages. Their center of gravity is lower, their quadripedal stance is more stable and offers more maneuvering control by putting more points in contact with the ground at all times (even when some of them are up), the main weapons (hands) are on their biggest and strongest limbs (which are bigger than our legs) and pretty much automaticly apply the animal's whole weight to anything they grab, and they have big pointy teeth that aren't for eating. The bottom line is that they're built for fighting, and it's not just in their size but also in their design. And humans are not. You predetermine the outcome any time you ask which of two things would be better at a task that only one of them is really designed for. It would be equally unfair to ask whether a gorilla could ever match humans at long-distance walking, weight carrying capacity, survival on limited resources in a drought/famine, or chess.

If there is a chance for the human at all, it probably lies in knowing exactly how gorillas fight. A gorilla charges straight forward toward his target, and the other gorilla responds by either charging as well, sitting still and waiting, or turning away and walking off slowly. The second and third responses usually stop the charge by telling the charging gorilla, in gorilla body language, that his target is not a threat. So those are probably the human's best bets right there, as Dian Fossey has instructed her guests who've gone out into gorilla territory with her. Quickly leaping up or to one side instead is not something gorillas do, so it might confuse a charging gorilla as well as get you out of the way, but it might irritate him; ANY sudden movement might just look to him like fighting back. While actually engaged, gorillas grab and strike each other with their arms, not their legs, so they wouldn't expect a human to kick them either. That might be enough of a surprise, and different enough from what the gorilla "knows" how to defend against, to get in good blows to his throat and face. Also, gorillas normally don't duck or dodge each other's blows; they defend by blocking while they're attacking, or completely retreat. So evading by stepping/leaping back or to the side or at an oblique angle for just a few feet at a time is something else that isn't in the gorilla's game plan. And it also makes use of one of the few kinds of physical activity that our design makes us better at: our low body mass to leg strength ratio and its resulting quick acceleration factor. If you can avoid getting hit or grabbed once, you can probably keep doing so pretty much indefinitely, until the gorilla quits bothering or you get an opportunity for a throat kick.

I don't know the odds of success this way, but I'm sure they'd be higher than any other way. (And keep in mind that I started with ways to aviod fighting at all, and the pontification about actually fighting was only secondary!)

Ironically, the people who'd be best at those tactics are practitioners of a set of martial arts that I ordinarily don't consider very useful in real combat (which normally means against other humans, of course): the ones that focus on a lot of jumping and kicking and boxing, like tae kwon do. Bodybuilders are strong, but strength is playing into what the gorilla's good at and we're not, at least not compared to them, not even the strongest of us; what you'd need to do instead is play into what we're good at and they aren't, and that, to sum it up quickly, is using the legs.

BTW, someone mentioned Navy SEALs a while ago... they have a reputation as hand-to-hand combat experts, but SEAL training involves rather little of that. It focuses instead on the tactical use of heavy firepower and explosives, and mental things like discipline and stubbornness in the face of discomfort and fatigue. The use of lower-tech things like knives and choking chords is for sneaking up on somebody who doesn't know the SEAL is there. Hand-to-hand fighting is to be avoided because it's not as effective as not letting the enemy fight you at all in the first place (and because getting good at it takes many times longer than their training program lasts). SEAL teams' effectiveness on missions is based not on hand-to-hand skill but on carrying more firepower and explosives and other technology than other units of the same number of men, and on how they use those devices.

[Celestial Mechanic]

"I was a four-stone apology -- now I'm two separate gorillas!" -- Mr. Apollo

[clop]

Wrestle poodles and win.

[Noclevername]

Wrestle poodles and win.

Except for the ludicrous Gamma Poodle from the Hulk parody oops I mean movie.

[Ross PK81]

Wow, I've just thought, imagine what a gorilla would look like if it was a bodybuilder. :surprised

Imagine how strong it'd be.

(Don't worry, I'm not going to make a 'How would an excavator fare against a bodybuilding gorilla?' topic. ;))

[Noclevername]

Since most gorillas use their muscles to survive on a regular basis, it's already lean and rangy. A "bodybuilding" gorilla, concentrating on muscle size and appearance, might actually be less of a threat-- stronger (slightly) but slower and with less stamina or range of motion.

[Celestial Mechanic]

[Snip!] (Don't worry, I'm not going to make a 'How would an excavator fare against a bodybuilding gorilla?' topic. ;))
We must be grateful for small things. :)

Of course, someone could start a body-building gorillas driving excavators against dinosaurs thread! :eek:

[Noclevername]

Of course, someone could start a body-building gorillas driving excavators against dinosaurs thread! :eek:

What are the dinosaurs driving? ;)

[Celestial Mechanic]

What are the dinosaurs driving? ;)
SUVs. That's why they went extinct. ;)

[publius]

I want to know how human males would fare against a species such as this.

Me, I think I'd wet my pants and run............


-Richard

[TrAI]

If you do not have a choice and you are likely to die anyway, you might as well try to beat it. If your counter attack is fierce enough, the perhaps the gorilla might choose that you are not worth the trouble.

And think, anyone could fight a gorilla with the proper artillery, but fighting one of with only your hands, or what you could improvise at the moment, that would be a story worth telling...

But all in all, avoiding the battle would be the wises choice, if possible.

[Noclevername]

But all in all, avoiding the battle would be the wises choice, if possible.

Really? Well, I was going to try gorilla wrestling, but if you say so... ;)

[Larry Jacks]

Really? Well, I was going to try gorilla wrestling, but if you say so...

Coach Paul "Bear" Byrant (University of Alabama) got his nickname for wrestling a bear at a circus (he lost). Are you trying to become "Gorilla" Noclevername? Are your last words going to be "Here, hold my beer" or "Hey everybody, watch this!" The Darwin Awards committee wants to know.

[TrAI]

Really? Well, I was going to try gorilla wrestling, but if you say so... ;)

Yes, I know it seems obvious, but still, stupid people do exist, I can just invision some huge bodybuilder type that has been on 'roids since he was twelve that looks at a gorilla and thinks "Don look to tough... Me gona kick his tail, and womans will be impressed"

[montebianco]

I'd advise any weightlifter who might want to try to fight a gorilla to buy him a beer instead. You probably have a lot in common and might end up the best of friends.

Hmm. Do gorillas like beer?

[JohnD]

What a pity this thread perpetuates the myth of the Gorilla's ferocity. In fact they are placid vegetarians whose males compete by display. You don't have to be a body builder to get on well with them, in fact you can be a lightly-built, academic wildlife film maker. While you must have heard of Dian Fossey, I suspect that many of you have never watched the famous scene from the 'Life on Earth' series, of David Attenborough and the Mountain Gorilla family, so here it is. Enjoy!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4nzQO0B1E

[Delvo]

And think, anyone could fight a gorilla with the proper artillery, but fighting one of with only your hands, or what you could improvise at the moment, that would be a story worth telling...I figured the "empty-handed" rule was a part of the deal in this thread and played along with it, but in a way I disagree with it. The idea seems to be to put the human in a "natural" state because the gorilla's in a natural state, with no weapons. But the natural state of humans is to have weapons; no population of Homo sapiens or even any of its ancestral or cousin species for the last few million years has ever existed without at least stone tools. More, maybe, in recent times, but always at least that much at a minimum. So the real contest between critters in the natural state for their species would include the human holding a spear, with a knife or hand-ax as a backup sidearm. And charging right at the opponent/target, as gorillas do, is a behavior that makes them particularly vulnerable to spears.


I want to know how human males would fare against a species such as this.

Me, I think I'd wet my pants and run............That picture reminds me of a pattern I've noticed, that bodybuilders of both sexes seem to have darker skin than normal for their race, not as if darker individuals are the ones that go for it or the ones that get chosen, but as if each individual is somehow darkened compared to his/her own expected/normal color; the darkness seems somehow unnatural for the individual. Why? Are they doing something to their skins for a shiny smooth appearance, with darkening as a side effect? Are they spending lots of time in sunlight or tanning booths just because they're the kind of people who would want to do that anyway? Are they deliberately darkening up (by light or by chemicals) to boost contour shading under stage lights? I know that women of any given race generally have about 4% lighter skin than men of the same race, so I suspect that this could be a side effect of altered body muscle content or altered hormone state...


What a pity this thread perpetuates the myth of the Gorilla's ferocity.I don't believe it does. Not only have several of us pointed out that gorillas usually don't attack so the fight should be avoidable, but even without that, a discussion of what they CAN do is different from an assertion of how often they do it or how likely they are to do it.

[publius]

Are they deliberately darkening up (by light or by chemicals) to boost contour shading under stage lights?

Bingo. As I understand it, darker skin makes all the bulges and ripples show up better, and so they lather on the tan in a bottle, and then oil up slick as owl manure. Grotesque is how I'd describe it all, but that's what they go for.

There is even an artificial melanocyte stimulating hormone available now, called Melanotan I believe. The second generation of that has libido increasing properties as well. Well, here you go:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Melanotan

A derivative of the libido increasing version is being tested now as yet another Viagra copy cat. Just going wild with all this.

Anyway, steroid use is rampant with the bodybuilders and the culture doesn't seem to care. "Natural" doesn't matter apparently as it does with most sports, the game is to be as "pumped up" as possible, no matter how. So I'm sure many of 'em shoot themselves up with melanotan along with the steroids.

The women are getting more and more ridiculous and it takes steroids to get to that grosteque a level. Compare the look back when the women first started this in ernest a couple decades ago to now.

Speaking of female bodybuilders, steroids, and grotesque, one effect that anabolic steroids have on women is to increase the size of something. Look up "clitoromegaly". In males, it makes things shrink eventually. But in women, it makes the analog grow, and to grosteque proportions. Being a family forum, we'll let it go at that, but you wouldn't believe how "mega" things can get. And such effects are apparently desired in that subculture.

-Richard

[The Supreme Canuck]

Well, here's a second question that came to me while reading this thread: what about a gorilla vs. a grizzly?

[publius]

Hmmphhh. The FDA recently slapped the producer of Melanotan with a warning:

http://www.fda.gov/foi/warning_letters/s6491c.pdf

-Richard

[Noclevername]

Well, here's a second question that came to me while reading this thread: what about a gorilla vs. a grizzly?

...Driving excavators?

[The Supreme Canuck]

Heck yes.

[Kaptain K]

That female body builder obviously has "implants". With that little body fat over the rest of her body, the breasts would have been the first to go!

[Jens]

How about an oak tree versus a pine tree, both driving excavators? In summer, of course, so that the pine doesn't get an unfair advantage from its evergreenness.

That would be an exciting fight.

[Neverfly]

How about an oak tree versus a pine tree, both driving excavators? In summer, of course, so that the pine doesn't get an unfair advantage from its evergreenness.

That would be an exciting fight.

Oak is dense and hard. Pine is a softwood. Also Oaks have a greater range in both branches and roots. Oak branches can be quite massive whereas Pines have slender branches. Pines grow a lot taller than most oak trees though.

I think a fight between an oak and a pine tree will be a winner for the Oak. It's tough, sturdy and stronger.


ummmm...


Except they can't move.

[clop]

That is hilarious.

[Ross PK81]

Bodybuilders and dark skin: Yes, like the other guy said, they slop on a really dark tan all over, in fact they sometimes use paint brushes to put it on (no joke). It's supposed to make them look more muscular or something.

To be honest I really don't like it, I think they look so much better without the tan.

As for female bodybuilders, I really do admire their body and I like looking at it, but I don't find them sexually attractive in anyway.

[Neverfly]

As for female bodybuilders, I really do admire their body, but I don't find them sexually attractive in anyway.

I likes my women soft and girly.

[Ross PK81]

Yup, so do I. Either petite or curvy.

[Neverfly]

http://us.i1.yimg.com/us.yimg.com/i/mesg/emoticons7/105.gif

[Tucson_Tim]

What a pity this thread perpetuates the myth of the Gorilla's ferocity. In fact they are placid vegetarians whose males compete by display. You don't have to be a body builder to get on well with them, in fact you can be a lightly-built, academic wildlife film maker. While you must have heard of Dian Fossey, I suspect that many of you have never watched the famous scene from the 'Life on Earth' series, of David Attenborough and the Mountain Gorilla family, so here it is. Enjoy!
http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=YN4nzQO0B1E

I think you're underestimating the knowledge base of the members of BAUT because I'm sure that most of us are aware of the nature of gorillas and have also seen several documentaries about Dian Fossey and Attenborough's visit with Fossey and the gorillas. And many animals that are "placid vegetarians" will fight ferociously if cornered or threatened. The OP was a hypothetical scenario - nothing more.

[Larry Jacks]

What a pity this thread perpetuates the myth of the Gorilla's ferocity. In fact they are placid vegetarians whose males compete by display. You don't have to be a body builder to get on well with them, in fact you can be a lightly-built, academic wildlife film maker. While you must have heard of Dian Fossey, I suspect that many of you have never watched the famous scene from the 'Life on Earth' series, of David Attenborough and the Mountain Gorilla family, so here it is. Enjoy!

I don't think gorillas are fierce like portrayed in movies. However, I don't think it would be a smart idea to provoke one. The OP asked about wrestling a silverback. That sounds pretty provokative to me and I doubt the gorilla would be amused. I've seen video of two silverbacks fighting for dominance and they were quite hostile to one another. That isn't something I'd want directed at me.

[Kaptain K]

Being a vegetarian is no guarantee of being harmless. More people in Africa are killed by hippopotamuses than by lions!

[BigDon]

Uh, the gorilla in your picture is about 600 pounds. That human is about 350. Even if that gorilla were another human he would win.

I also think Tuscon Tim's citation is "incorrect". I've seen pictures of "trophy' gorillas taken in the 1930's. Freakin' huge.

So I'm backing the good Kaptain on this on.

[Ronald Brak]

I'll just mention that human jaw muscles are attached to the side of their skull. Gorilla jaw muscles run all the way to the top of their heads and are attached to a big ridge that runs along the top of the skull. Those muscles are huge. How huge? Look at the size of a gorilla head and remember that their brain is only one third the size of a human's. That's how huge their jaw muscles are. The moral of this story is don't get into a biting contest with a gorilla. It also means that a head wound that would fatally pierce the skull of a human may merely upset a gorilla.

[Jens]

Being a vegetarian is no guarantee of being harmless. More people in Africa are killed by hippopotamuses than by lions!

I suppose that you could go even further, and say that being small and unmuscular is no guarantee of being harmless either. More people in Africa are killed by Plasmodium falciparum each year than by lions and hippos combined. :)

[Tucson_Tim]

I also think Tuscon Tim's citation is "incorrect".


While I don't accept a wikipedia entry as the final source of information, I will accept a wikipedia entry over this:


Uh, the gorilla in your picture is about 600 pounds. That human is about 350. Even if that gorilla were another human he would win.

I've seen pictures of "trophy' gorillas taken in the 1930's. Freakin' huge.


BTW, wikipedia did state that there are heavier zoo gorillas on record, considered obese.

[Noclevername]

Uh, the gorilla in your picture is about 600 pounds. That human is about 350. Even if that gorilla were another human he would win.

If that were always true there would never be any fights, just weigh-ins. :)

I'm a small guy who has held my own against big guys. I've also had my hat handed to me by guys smaller than me.

[Kaptain K]

If that were always true there would never be any fights, just weigh-ins. :)

I'm a small guy who has held my own against big guys. I've also had my hat handed to me by guys smaller than me.
...and if that were even close to the norm, fight organizations wouldn't need weight classes!

[Noclevername]

...and if that were even close to the norm, fight organizations wouldn't need weight classes!

I never suggested it was the norm. Just not as far outside the range of possibility as BigDon seemed to imply.

[publiusr]

.460 Weatherby pretty much beats anything.

[Noclevername]

.460 Weatherby pretty much beats anything.

Yeah, but the ape probably couldn't fit his finger in the trigger guard.

[Ross PK81]

How about those guy's in the worlds strongest man competitions? How would they fare?

http://www.btinternet.com/~philip.j.wright/billpittuckpage_files/image006.jpg

[Neverfly]

'Bout the same as the weightlifter.

In the end, if both were 'Drugged' into extreme aggressiveness to ensure a fight, the gorilla is much stronger.

[KLIK]

I assume the more intelligent one will pick up a branch and use it as a club....

[Kaptain K]

I assume the more intelligent one will pick up a branch and use it as a club....

Still no contest!

[Ronald Brak]

How about those guy's in the worlds strongest man competitions? How would they fare?

He might be the world's strongest man, but he's still apparently fallen in love with a rock.

[Kaptain K]

He might be the world's strongest man, but he's still apparently fallen in love with a rock.

And the gorilla could pick up him and his pet rock and throw them both 10 meters!

[BigDon]

Even though she was no "mere slip of a girl" did anyone else see that olympics where that 19 year old girl picked up 600 pounds off the floor? That's 200 pounds more than I even hope to ever pick up like that.

[Exposed]

After further contemplation, I will admit that after months (or maybe years) of special training about the strengths and weaknesses of "great apes", a martial arts expert might have a 50-50 chance against a chimp and maybe one in ten against a gorilla.

You're underestimating human skill and strength. That was obvious when you were comparing bodybuilders (who are extremely poor at any type of fighting). A fast heavyweight boxer can probably KO a gorilla with a single punch. Power = Mass x Speed.

[Ross PK81]

Ahh, boxers, I never thought of them. They're good at blocking and punching with a lot of power, I'm sure Tyson or Lenox Lewis would have a decent chance against a gorillla.

Maybe even someone smaller like Mayweather?

[cjl]

You're underestimating human skill and strength. That was obvious when you were comparing bodybuilders (who are extremely poor at any type of fighting). A fast heavyweight boxer can probably KO a gorilla with a single punch. Power = Mass x Speed.

Definitely not with a single punch, but they'd have a better chance than a bodybuilder would.

[Exposed]

Perhaps not your average fighter, but fighters known for thier speed and power would likely have that single punch chance (such as a 20 year old Mike Tyson, 1970's George Foreman).

[Ronald Brak]

Definitely not with a single punch, but they'd have a better chance than a bodybuilder would.

A single punch is enough, provided that single punch imparts enough sudden acceleration to the skull. A punch from a gloved heavyweight is enough to KO anyone who isn't prepared for it. But there are some problems. A gorilla's huge neck and jaw muscles may protect against sudden acceleration of the skull and their brain is one third the mass of a human's, although experience demonstates that animals with brains much smaller than human's can be KO'd. Also, a human heavyweight boxer can generally punch much harder than their unprotected hand can stand, meaning that without gloves a full strength blow could cripple the boxer. Bare knuckle boxing matches often went on for a very long time for this reason.