A question about French onion soup

[weatherc]

This question stems from an argument that I had with my 94 year old grandmother. She likes to order French onion soup at restaurants, but she doesn't like it to be served with the cheese on top. She swears that onion soup didn't used to come with the cheese on top, and that this is some sort of recent phenomenon. I told her I have never heard of such a thing; I was under the impression that onion soup with cheese on top went back even further than my grandmother does.

What I'm thinking is that she's remembering back to World War II, and that many things were being rationed, possibly including the cheese that was put on top of onion soup. She may have started eating onion soup just when there didn't happen to be any cheese on it, and then never got used to it when it went back to its more traditional form.

With that said: Does anyone know if French onion soup has always been served with cheese on top? Was there ever a time (such as during the war) that onion soup was served without the cheese? Was there a regional preference about whether the soup got cheese on it or not (my grandmother lived in New York State and New York City up until the late 40s)?



P.S. -- I promise if I find out that I'm right that I won't go and tell my grandmother she was wrong. I just want to know for my own benefit.

[Ronald Brak]

You put cheese in onion soup? First time I've heard of that. I'm pretty sure the French don't put cheese in it. I think it's very likely that granny is correct. Especially when you consider that onions are cheap and cheese expensive. Nowadays dairy subsidies are a couple of hundred million dollars a year in the U.S. and although they started in the 1930's I think it was probably in the fifties that they really took off.

[weatherc]

French onion soup, at least here in the U.S., is usually served with a large crouton or toasted bread on top (which fits the shape of the top of the bowl), and on top of the crouton is cheese.

[PetersCreek]

It looks like French onion soup with cheese on top is at least as old as your grandmother...

"Soupe a l'oignon.--Si vous desirez gouter a cette soupe si appreciee des disciples de Bacchus, preparez-la selon les indications suivantes: Faites revenir dans due beurre (pour deux litres de lait), un gros oignon, coupe en tranches fines; quand l'oignon est bien dore, mettez le lait et le sel et laissez suire. Preparez ensuite dans votre souiere, de fines tranches de pain que vous recouvrez de fromage de Gruyere rape, continuez ainsi jusqu'a mi-hauteur, versez dessus votre bouillon et servez."
— L'Arte du Bien Manger, Edmond Richardin [Agence General de Librarie et de Publications:Paris] 1913 (p. 517)

[Emphasis mine. Sorry I don't have a translation...my French is far too bad for that.]

[weatherc]

It looks like French onion soup with cheese on top is at least as old as your grandmother...

"Soupe a l'oignon.--Si vous desirez gouter a cette soupe si appreciee des disciples de Bacchus, preparez-la selon les indications suivantes: Faites revenir dans due beurre (pour deux litres de lait), un gros oignon, coupe en tranches fines; quand l'oignon est bien dore, mettez le lait et le sel et laissez suire. Preparez ensuite dans votre souiere, de fines tranches de pain que vous recouvrez de fromage de Gruyere rape, continuez ainsi jusqu'a mi-hauteur, versez dessus votre bouillon et servez."
— L'Arte du Bien Manger, Edmond Richardin [Agence General de Librarie et de Publications:Paris] 1913 (p. 517)

[Emphasis mine. Sorry I don't have a translation...my French is far too bad for that.]Thanks. That information at least lets me know that I'm not insane.

[tlbs101]

I have only ever had it with cheese. I wouldn't eat it any other way -- and it *is* better with Gruyere, not some cheaper cheeses.

Now you've done it ... I have to go get some for lunch.

.

[Ronald Brak]

Wow, they put milk in it too.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Always, always with cheese. French-Canadian family, here.

[Doodler]

I have only ever had it with cheese. I wouldn't eat it any other way -- and it *is* better with Gruyere, not some cheaper cheeses.

Now you've done it ... I have to go get some for lunch.

.

Provalogne isn't bad. I've had it a few different ways. Some with the croutons, though my preferred mode is with the single piece of baguette bread on the bottom of the bowl.

[tdvance]

Wow, they put milk in it too.

It's even better if you put various potent potables in it.

The best French Onion Soup I've tasted was from Carol's Creek restaurant (http://www.carrolscreek.com/menu.htm) in Southport, Annapolis, MD--made with wine.

Todd

[weatherc]

It's even better if you put various potent potables in it.

The best French Onion Soup I've tasted was from Carol's Creek restaurant (http://www.carrolscreek.com/menu.htm) in Southport, Annapolis, MD--made with wine.

ToddThat sounds really good.

[PetersCreek]

Lore connected to the dish has it that Louis XV (or a Louis close to that number) himself made the first French onion soup with onions, Champagne, and butter.

[Ronald Brak]

Sounds like I've been missing out.

[Argos]

I like mine with cheese on top [it´s perfectly ok], and some slices of Italian bread.

[jfribrg]

I consider myself a French Onion Soup expert insofar as I always order it at a restaurant if it is on the menu. IMHO, it isn't French Onion Soup if it doesn't have a crouton and cheese. I don't care how the French prepare it, I like the crouton and cheese. Also, if most of the cheese is in the crock insead of melted on the outside, then opinion of the chef is greatly diminished. The best part is peeling the cheese off of the crock after the soup is gone.

[Ronald Brak]

Last time I had french onion soup it came out of a packet. It consisted of dehydrated onion, starch, salt, and brown. I added water, heated it, ate half and threw the rest out. I considered eating it all but I decided to save my willpower in case I ever needed open heart surgery without an anesthetic instead.

[Gillianren]

Thanks. That information at least lets me know that I'm not insane.

That is a different question.

For what it's worth, Alton Brown is on your side. He had an episode of Good Eats in which he made French onion soup, and he covered it in his beloved Gruyere.

[weatherc]

That is a different question.:lol:

[PetersCreek]

I for one question his sanity for arguing with his 94-year-old grandmother. If she's anything like my grandmother, were winning the argument was even remotely possible, only misery would follow. :lol:

[R.A.F.]

I thought it was called French Onion Soup because the onions were French. :)

[Matherly]

Last time I had french onion soup it came out of a packet. It consisted of dehydrated onion, starch, salt, and brown.


Alton Brown is on your side

These quotes, one after the other, made me laugh. I guess Brown doesn't make that good of a soup after all :dance:

[weatherc]

Last time I had french onion soup it came out of a packet. It consisted of dehydrated onion, starch, salt, and brown. I added water, heated it, ate half and threw the rest out. I considered eating it all but I decided to save my willpower in case I ever needed open heart surgery without an anesthetic instead.The difference between onion soup that comes in a packet and real French onion soup is like the difference between... well, I can't even think of a simile that quite captures the amount of difference between these two things. They are just that different, and one is much, much better than the other.

[Fazor]

Just to point out how weird I am... I cannot remember ever having french onion soup. I know I must have at one point, because every time I see it or even hear the words, I think to myself, "Man, I should have some!"

So in other words, I love French Onion soup, despite the fact that I cannot ever recall having it.

[Maksutov]

The difference between onion soup that comes in a packet and real French onion soup is like the difference between... well, I can't even think of a simile that quite captures the amount of difference between these two things. They are just that different, and one is much, much better than the other.It's like the difference between those things they serve at McDonald's that have the consistency of cardboard, and a real hamburger. And that's not even considering what the Arch Villains call a "cheeseburger".

Getting back to edible food, I always thought it was called "French onion soup" because it was a French recipe for onion soup. And in my experience bread and cheese are two essential ingredients.

[Paul Beardsley]

I wonder if cheese and onion crisps should just be called "onion crisps" as the cheese is sort of implied? Or, given Mak's point that bread is also an essential ingredient, but obviously isn't present in cheese and onion crisps, perhaps they should be called "onion without bread crisps"? (That's "oignon sans pain crisps" in Leg Language. Oops, wrong thread.)

[Sticks]

But don't you guys across the pond now call it Freedom Onion Soup to go with the Freedom Fries :razz:

[Maksutov]

That kind of terminology is now passé.

[toejam]

My "Larouse Gastronomique" English edition 1967 differentiates between onion soup and onion soup gratinee. The soup is the same, but the gratinee is served over "slices of bread dried in the oven, arranged in the serving bowl in layers, each layer being covered with grated cheese. Then the top of the soup is sprinkled with cheese & melted butter & then browned in the oven."

The plain onion soup leaves out the cheese & butter but is still served over crouton slices. (if you can call bread dried in the oven a "crouton".)

[novaderrik]

Last time I had french onion soup it came out of a packet. It consisted of dehydrated onion, starch, salt, and brown. I added water, heated it, ate half and threw the rest out. I considered eating it all but I decided to save my willpower in case I ever needed open heart surgery without an anesthetic instead.
the only way i've ever had French Onion soup was the packet style- but instead of adding water to it, you dump the packet in some sour cream and make a really awesome dip for potato chips.
mmm.. chips...

[mike alexander]

Maybe it's similar to German's Chocolate cake, and some guy in Idaho named Billy French published an onion soup recipe in the Ketchum Independent Democrat-Republican Food Notes column. Originally called "Billy's Onion Soup", the apostrophe and s were dropped, resulting in the French Onion Soup of today.

[Charlie in Dayton]

French onion soup topped with some appropriate cheese...yummy...

[Whirlpool]

Maybe it's perfect with French bread .

;)

[NEOWatcher]

the only way i've ever had French Onion soup was the packet style- but instead of adding water to it, you dump the packet in some sour cream and make a really awesome dip for potato chips.
mmm.. chips...
Exactly; packeted onion soup is not really soup...it's an ingredient.

[farmerjumperdon]

You argue with your 94 year old grandma? I mean, maybe if she was in her sixties.

[Argos]

Exactly; packeted onion soup is not really soup...it's an ingredient.

Shake it with buttermilk and you´ll have a delicious paté.

[farmerjumperdon]

All pate I've ever made (or eaten) has included liver (of some creature or another - I usually use chicken) and mushrooms. What kind of pate do you get by mixing instant soup mix (which has got to be about 75% salt) and buttermilk? Sounds bizarre.

Anybody notice all the yummy pop-ups?

[Argos]

What kind of pate do you get by mixing instant soup mix (which has got to be about 75% salt) and buttermilk? Sounds bizarre.

A common finding in parties and receptions down here. Me and my fellow countrymen must be crazy... Why don´t you try it? ;)

[Fazor]

yes, i always thought paté always consisted of some kind of (ground?) raw protine?

[Argos]

Paté is just a general term for spreadable paste. Re Onion paté, of course the contents of a packet [I like the 'Knorr' brand] is diluted in several parts of buttermilk [assuming I´m referring to the same stuff as you are used to]. That does away with the salt to a reasonable level.

[Fazor]

Round these parts, we call spreadable paste sans raw meat "dip" or "spread" :) But thanks for the clarification

[tdvance]

But don't you guys across the pond now call it Freedom Onion Soup to go with the Freedom Fries :razz:

Not anymore--the new French pres. seems to be more "hawkish", if our newspapers are accurate (this time). But Congress did repeal the --order? whatever it was requiring Capitol building eateries to call fried "Freedom Fries".

Todd

[mike alexander]

Has it all been repealed? No more freedom kissing?

[Fazor]

Has it all been repealed? No more freedom kissing?

I lost my freedom of kissing when my g/f moved in with me. :lol:

[galacsi]

It looks like French onion soup with cheese on top is at least as old as your grandmother...

"Soupe a l'oignon.--Si vous desirez gouter a cette soupe si appreciee des disciples de Bacchus, preparez-la selon les indications suivantes: Faites revenir dans due beurre (pour deux litres de lait), un gros oignon, coupe en tranches fines; quand l'oignon est bien dore, mettez le lait et le sel et laissez suire. Preparez ensuite dans votre souiere, de fines tranches de pain que vous recouvrez de fromage de Gruyere rape, continuez ainsi jusqu'a mi-hauteur, versez dessus votre bouillon et servez."
— L'Arte du Bien Manger, Edmond Richardin [Agence General de Librarie et de Publications:Paris] 1913 (p. 517)

[Emphasis mine. Sorry I don't have a translation...my French is far too bad for that.]

Excellent , c'est toujours comme ça maintenant !

http://www.750g.com/fiche_de_cuisine.2.123.4165.htm

There is several way of cooking a "soupe à l'oignon" as it is explained in the link above.

In fact cheese (gruyere or ementhal or comté may be) is not mandatory. But i must say i never ate a soup without it. And it is fun fighting with the threads of molten cheese !

The "soupe à l'oignon" is mostly a winter dish, very appreciated when it is very cold like at Chrismas.

[danscope]

" A day without onion soup....is a day without significance !" Voltaire .

And of course....

" Apple Pie without cheese....is like a kiss without a squeeze !

Blanche on the ranch :)"

[Whirlpool]

The "soupe à l'oignon" is mostly a winter dish, very appreciated when it is very cold like at Chrismas.


Yeah.. perfect for christmas.

:)<dreamyface>

[danscope]

If you like onion soup, try this:

French onion soup

In a stainless steel pan .......



Ingredients:

2 1/2 pounds onions, thinly sliced
2 tablespoons of olive oil
1 tablespoon butter (unsalted )
1/2 teaspoon dry mustard
5 cups chicken broth
5 cups beef broth
1/2 teaspoon dried sage

1/4 cup dry white wine
1 Bay Leaf
Preparation:

Sauté the onions in the oil and butter for 30 minutes, over medium-low heat. Stir in the dry mustard and sauté for an additional 30 minutes

Occasionally, stir the onions to prevent sticking. Add the remaining ingredients and simmer for 45 minutes.
This soup is even better the next day.

And yes, gruyere cheese.... a little ... grated on top of the soup serving
is excellent . I don't try to overwhelm a good soup with too much cheese.
It is onion soup. Not cheese soup. A little gruyere will serve you well.
I like to saute some fresh croutons to float on top. These are done in an
iron skillet with a little butter on medium low heat . They look like short,
thick french fries and compliment a good soup.
Bon Appetit .
Dan

[Neverfly]

GOLLY Dan...

Electrical, carpentry, science... and you COOK too?

If I was a woman I would propose...:neutral:

[mugaliens]

You put cheese in onion soup? First time I've heard of that. I'm pretty sure the French don't put cheese in it. I think it's very likely that granny is correct. Especially when you consider that onions are cheap and cheese expensive. Nowadays dairy subsidies are a couple of hundred million dollars a year in the U.S. and although they started in the 1930's I think it was probably in the fifties that they really took off.

I disagree. I love French onion soup, and all the French restaurants I've ever been to in the French Quarter (about 20 - I used to live there) serve it this way.

The two resturants I went to in Paris France did, too, floating it on bread croutons.

[danscope]

GOLLY Dan...

Electrical, carpentry, science... and you COOK too?

If I was a woman I would propose...:neutral:

Hi, LOL......I'm a renaisance man. I have developed just a few talents...
Best regards, Dan

[Sticks]

If you like onion soup, try this:

French onion soup

In a stainless steel pan .......



Alternatively

Buy a can of soup

Open it

pour contents into a suitable bowl

Zap it in a microwave

Eat

Quick - 3 minutes

[tdvance]

Alternatively

Buy a can of soup

Open it

pour contents into a suitable bowl

Zap it in a microwave

Eat

Quick - 3 minutes

Not as quick, but less work (opening those darn cans and all): go to Applebee's for lunch as I just did and ask for French Onion Soup.

I've done the Campbell's version, but it's a fast way to get soup, but not a way to get a fix for French Onion Soup.

Todd

[Palomar]

Maybe your grandmother is right, but I can't imagine this soup without the toasted baguette on top, smothered in melted Gruyere! Can't imagine why she wouldn't like those yummy additions.

http://allrecipes.com/Recipe/French-Onion-Soup-I/Detail.aspx

The only local restaurant which serves it in my area is Outback Steakhouse.

Will give making my own a try here soon. It's autumn after all; perfect soup season. :)

[mugaliens]

A common finding in parties and receptions down here. Me and my fellow countrymen must be crazy... Why don´t you try it? ;)

But that's not Pâté, which "a form of spreadable paste," and "is generally made from a finely ground or chunky mixture of meats such as liver, and often additional fat, vegetables, herbs, spices, wine and other ingredients."

Could it be that your country simply spells a different local dish the same as what the Western world has long called what is essentially liver paste?

[mugaliens]

Not as quick, but less work (opening those darn cans and all): go to Applebee's for lunch as I just did and ask for French Onion Soup.

I've done the Campbell's version, but it's a fast way to get soup, but not a way to get a fix for French Onion Soup.

Todd

I prefer Lipton's version, with a baguette and the mozzerella on top.

Once I get done with the cheese and baguette, I use the rest as a dip for my sourdough bread while reading a book.

Yum!

[danscope]

Alternatively

Buy a can of soup

Open it

pour contents into a suitable bowl

Zap it in a microwave

Eat

Quick - 3 minutes

Hi, Scratch cooking and better health are not compulsory.....and it does take a little time....but then again, anything worth while is worth a little time and effort. Minus the preservatives and sodium....etc.

Best regards, Dan

[RalofTyr]

The other day I made homemade chicken noodle soup. It was freakin' good.

1 can of chicken broth + one half a can of water.
1 chicken thigh, fried over 1/4 a cup of onions, seasoned.
1/4" X 1/4" garlic, minced and boiled in broth.
Some carrots.
About a fourth of a bag of noodles I had boiled in broth.
The chicken was still bloody on the inside when I chopped it up, so I put it in the boiling broth for a 10 minutes. It was good.


Also, when having cream of something, out of a can (Cream of Mushrooms), use half and half creamer instead of milk. It's soo much better!!!

[mugaliens]

Lately I've been avoiding cooking as much as possible and eating simple things like bananas, applesauce, nuked mash potatoes well lubricated with butter, soggy cereal, sucking on orange slices, kiwi...

Then again, I was violently ill last Sunday and injured my throat. No food for the first three days, then have slowly been ramping things back up since.

Not the most enjoyable way to loose weight...

[Maksutov]

That is a different question.

For what it's worth, Alton Brown is on your side. He had an episode of Good Eats in which he made French onion soup, and he covered it in his beloved Gruyere.Here he is with his French onion soup:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1531/altonbrownenjoyshisfrenoj4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=altonbrownenjoyshisfrenoj4.jpg)

Note the cheese and crouton.

[weatherc]

Here he is with his French onion soup:

http://img136.imageshack.us/img136/1531/altonbrownenjoyshisfrenoj4.th.jpg (http://img136.imageshack.us/my.php?image=altonbrownenjoyshisfrenoj4.jpg)

Note the cheese and crouton.I had seen that episode of Good Eats before. The only problem was that I couldn't remember if Alton had said that this was the true, traditional way to serve the soup. I also couldn't remember if he had his resident Nutritional Anthropologist speak about the soup in that episode, or not.

[Maksutov]

I had seen that episode of Good Eats before. The only problem was that I couldn't remember if Alton had said that this was the true, traditional way to serve the soup.Here's what he had to say while preparing the dish:
Preheat your oven to broil and set the top rack so it's about six inches from the hot stuff. Now, you're gonna need oven-proof bowls. Or better yet, crocks. I picked these up for a song at a restaurant supply store just so I could make French onion soup. Now before you buy or bake any bread make sure the slices are gonna be wide enough to span the mouth of the crock. That way, you can kinda punch out rounds. Bingo! Instant crouton.

Now, to assemble our masterpiece, first thing I want to do is ladle it into the crock, but only until we get to about an inch from the edge. You gotta leave room for the lid. Then take one of the croutons and make sure you put the toasted edge down onto the soup.

Finish is just a matter of sprinkling on lots of cheese. Now I prefer a one-two punch, kind of a combination of grated Parmesan and maybe a smooth, melting cheese like Fontina. If you like the stringy stuff, go with mozzarella, but try grating it with a little bit of lemon juice first. The acid will keep those proteins from making those long, nasty strings.

Once you've got it built, under the broiler for a minutes, two tops. You want to melt the cheese, not brown it.

Now. this might not be pretty to watch, but, this is how you eat French onion soup. The important thing is to get a bite of cheese toast with every spoonful.A chunk of the description (about 50%) was devoted to the croutons and cheese and proper preparation before and once these were added. Therefore it's pretty obvious that he considers these as essential ingredients of French onion soup. I know I do, even though that might disagree with the opinion of one person who wrote a culinary dictionary.
I also couldn't remember if he had his resident Nutritional Anthropologist speak about the soup in that episode, or not.Deborah Duchon (referred to verbally as "Culinary Anthropologist" while being identified by a graphic as "Nutritional Anthropologist") showed up, but provided information only on the history of onions in the Americas.

When it comes to soups made from this particular plant group, my preference is the leek.

[phaishazamkhan]

For what it's worth, Alton Brown is on your side. He had an episode of Good Eats in which he made French onion soup, and he covered it in his beloved Gruyere.

So he's NOT lactose intolerant?

[Gillianren]

So he's NOT lactose intolerant?

He says that he is. Doesn't mean he doesn't love cheese. Besideds, don't they make pills for that?

[phaishazamkhan]

Doesn't mean he doesn't love cheese.

:sick: