Please tell me people aren't this ignorant

[uniqueuponhim]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJlyNv4KU&mode=related&search=

[Tobin Dax]

People apparently don't know the meaning of rotate, either.

[mr obvious]

According to Snopes (hope this link is ok):
http://snopes.com/radiotv/gameshows/millionaire.asp

it's a true occurrence. At least, that's how I read it.

[The Bad Astronomer]

I wrote about this on my blog a while back (http://www.badastronomy.com/bablog/2007/01/05/fried-french/). The comments there are interesting.

[cbacba]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJlyNv4KU&mode=related&search=

Isn't that about the same percentage that think elvis is still alive and that believe in alien abductions?

Considering that many don't seem to have a clue that the sun is a star and that planets are not hot like the sun, there's little wonder that they don't know which object orbits which.

[Mihaita]

Now, people are either stupid or ignorant. That one looks stupid to me, but I have met an ignorant one as well. It was a very old man that died six years ago at the age of 82, to whom I told that people went on the Moon. He was convinced I was mocking him because he said that it was impossible because there is God put His power and people could not have His power. Now I know that people have His powers and that man may have the answers we will find out maybe later than sooner.

[Noclevername]

Isn't that about the same percentage that think elvis is still alive and that believe in alien abductions?

Nah, just the percentage that bother to fill out polls.

[schlaugh]

Now, people are either stupid or ignorant. That one looks stupid to me, but I have met an ignorant one as well....

Made me think of a river guide I met. He was a young man, 30-ish, partly college educated and from a wealthy family. He had spent almost his whole adult life as a river guide in the US or South America (or generally just playing).

We were sitting around the camp one night and I mentioned that the ISS was going to fly overhead that night and we should be able to see it from camp. His reaction was basically "What's an ISS? There's a space station up there?" He wasn't fooling. But at least he had heard of the moon landings. Sort of. In a CT kind of way (sigh...)

[JustAFriend]

Please tell me people aren't this ignorant

Whatever you do, don't go to your local town council meetings....

(We've got people here debating about the 'mind control drugs' in our flouridated water... seriously...)

[isidoor rabi]

The orbits of the heavenly bodies are not dependent on the education of the masses.
This is valid today as it was valid back 10,000 years.

[danscope]

The problem is in some people's idea of selective input. They make a "shoot from the hip" instantaneous judgment about information, and whether they need to know anything about it for "Their world" or not.
RESULT: You get fools who think the amazon is in Scotland, the world is 6000
years old , and that world war 2 was in 1850. Don't let them work on your brakes.
Dan

[Gillianren]

Whatever you do, don't go to your local town council meetings....

(We've got people here debating about the 'mind control drugs' in our flouridated water... seriously...)

You don't have to go to ours; they broadcast 'em on Channel 3. But yeah, it amazes me that fluoridation still manages to be an Evil Commie Plot.

[Peter Wilson]

Please tell me people aren't this ignorant

People aren't that ignorant...it's just a TV show :shifty:

[RobA]

People aren't that ignorant...it's just a TV show :shifty:

Oh, I don't know. Remember, even Sherlock Holmes didn't know that the Earth went round the Sun :whistle:
(of course, Conan-Doyle did :) )

[snowcelt]

Most people are not stupid---they are but fools. Dad and mom were fools and so forth. the secret is to be the informed child; Not only know that your parents et al are fools; but, perhaps what you know may be foolish as well.

[torque of the town]

@RobA

of course, Conan-Doyle did



But, Conan Doyle also believed in fairies.

[Roy Batty]

And mediums etc.

RobA, I'm curious, in what story was that revealed?

[danscope]

When people posing as responsible adults build monuments to the falsehoods
they present as "Truth" in the deliberate spite of science, you have what shall be come known as "Superfools". These characters have hacked a new trail through the jungle. Fate willing, they will dig a big enough hole and jump into it.
Just don't follow them when they beckon.

Dan

[zooball]

I have found through my public outreach that about 90% or more have no clue about space. I honestly think the common person is a victim of information overload and selectively filters out anything that does not pertain to their daily existence. Space comes across more as some form of entertainment than reality. And issues closer to home are for some magical group of elder scientists to figure out and fix, ie. Global Warming. And, if a Democrat sounds the alarm about Global Warming, the argument that follows is invariably based on political hatred, and not the common cause for all humans--the crowd totally misses the point every time!!!! I'm not at all surprised most people have science completely wrong in their minds because they are too wrapped up in emotions, gut feelings, daily trivia, impulsive guesses, and whatever an "authority" tells them to think.

I have a feeling Mother Earth is going to clean house in the next 100 years, and I think this is what some politicians in power are hoping for so they can rebuild the human culture according to their plans. A sort of Greenhouse End Times.

Don't get me started about city council meetings, either. ;)

[RobA]

And mediums etc.

RobA, I'm curious, in what story was that revealed?

The very first one - "A Study in Scarlet" - where Watson's trying to figure out what Holmes does for a living by finding out the sorts of things he knows. Holmes scathingly replies that, now that he's been told about the Sun and Earth, he'll promptly try to forget that fact since it's just useless information that clutters the mind! (editted to add: Holmes didn't claim that the Sun went round the Earth - he was actively disinterested either way).

Just double-checking on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes), that page's author(s) reckon Holmes was just pulling Watson's leg.

It is fascinating how Conan-Doyle, - so willing to go out on a limb with his fairies,etc - could create such a hard-headed logician like Holmes. (I believe the girls who put out those pictures waited until Conan-Doyle died before admitting it was a hoax, since he'd been so kind to them they didn't want to shame him while he was still alive).

For those who haven't discovered them yet, I love the Mary Russell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Laurie_R._King) series of Holmes stories. Holmes' reaction when he finds out about Conan-Doyle and the fairies is classic.

[Gillianren]

Just double-checking on wikipedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sherlock_Holmes), that page's author(s) reckon Holmes was just pulling Watson's leg.

I don't. But then, I never did like Holmes. (Just as a nitpick, "Conan Doyle" isn't hyphenated. It's two separate names.)

[RobA]

Just as a nitpick, "Conan Doyle" isn't hyphenated. It's two separate names.
Gaaahhhh - you got me :surprised Thanks for the pick-up, and now you've got me wondering when I started putting it in (I blame "Spider-Man").

[Gillianren]

Yeah, and I get people for leaving that one out. (The girl behind the counter at Suncoast in our local mall says she doesn't think it would fit on their sign with the hyphen in, but at least she knew it was wrong.)

[TheOncomingStorm]

Please tell me people aren't this ignorant
yes and worse.

[Ilya]

As soon as I saw the thread title -- before I read any of the posts on it, -- my immediate thought was "Yes, they are".

[Swift]

As soon as I saw the thread title -- before I read any of the posts on it, -- my immediate thought was "Yes, they are".
As I've said many times, the expression "No one could be that stupid", should be permanently removed from the English language. There are just too many counterexamples.

[danscope]

For example: People who think the dinosaurs were only 7000 years old,......
......and build a museum to .....uhhrumpf.....try to "prove" their point.
Shame...shame....pity...shame ........

Best regards, Dan

[Identity 4]

oooh..i think ive heard of that museum...
*shakes head* so sad....so sad indeed.. :(

-=Identity 4=-

[snp.gupta]

The more logical and convencing we become, the more people will understand about astronomy and cosmos.

[boppa]

just tonight at dr karls forum- a regular(she's a nice lady but has some very strange ideas) was thinking that the earth didnt rotate arond the sun and that the seasons were caused by this stationary earth tilting back and forth

ok she was willing to be told otherwise but some people seemed surprised that someone could still believe this these days

[danscope]

Yes.... and I find it surprising that these concepts of the tilted earth orbiting the Sun do not take logical root in what should otherwisw be fertile soil.
The demonstrations in physical science class are pretty basic concepts.
Must be too busy gigling with the girlfriends or writing notes.
Have you ever seen Jay Leno's " Jaywalking " ?
I used to think these people were actors just making a buck.
But.....they could be for real. Scary, isn't it? :sad:
Best regards, Dan

[Noclevername]

Every time I think I've figured out just how ignorant people are, I'm unpleasantly surprised to find out they're even worse. :(

[Len Deighton]

For example: People who think the dinosaurs were only 7000 years old,......
......and build a museum to .....uhhrumpf.....try to "prove" their point.
Shame...shame....pity...shame ........

Best regards, Dan

People say all kinds of silly things. I try to think of a way to make money from them, for example, if they say an event is absolutely impossible, I ask them if they'd like to insure me for one million dollars against this impossible event. Usually they then start to maintain that while the event is absolutely impossible, there is a chance it could happen :lol:

But if these people are willing to put up money to build a museum, does that mean they really believe it, or does it just mean they're willing to make money from the people who really believe it?

[danscope]

Hi,
You make an excellent point. Maybe it is just a monument to con artists
everywhere!! It certainly reflects poorly on the chumps who actually believe
that dinosaurs ran around only 5000 years ago. What rubbish.
Like I said: Don't let such people work on your brakes. :)
Best regards, Dan

[jebubb]

A friend of mine put it better than I've ever been able to. Take what you consider to be "average" intelligence, then realize that by definition, most people fall below that mark.

Jim.

[Disinfo Agent]

I thought the scoop was that half of the people were below average. ;)
Welcome to the forum.

[astromark]

Yes and when you tell some that our sun is a star, they do not believe you.

[jebubb]

Yes Disinfo, I worded that wrong. Meant to say half not most. Thanks for the greeting!

Jim.

[Peter Wilson]

Half the people are above-average, which makes the below-average people look bad :mad:

[UFOvsUSO]

It's true,and I read the article years ago.

[01101001]

Half the people are above-average, which makes the below-average people look bad :mad:

Funny things is, way more than half the people you meet in everyday life are above average in intelligence -- because a large portion of those on the way-low end of the scale are institutionalized. Society hides part of the curve.

Another interesting fun-with-statistics item I was reminded of yesterday: most people have an above-average number of legs -- arithmetic average, that is. There are too few with more than 2 legs to offset the fair number with less than 2.

[Doodler]

Is it really so hard to believe that the majority of people in the world are just plain ignorant of facts which don't directly impinge upon their daily trek through the rat maze?

Its not that they're stupid or otherwise mentally deficient, its simply that those particular pieces of information are, in a practical sense, utterly irrelevant to them. They could care less about the orbit of the Earth or the orbit of an electron, its pointless data. They don't see the need to know, so there's no effort to learn it. To the average Joe/Jane on the street, knowing the first thing about the world beyond the atmosphere is nothing more than trivia at best.

[ampassociates]

The weirdest stories are often true. Lets give it the benefit of doubt.

[KaiYeves]

I had a friend who didn't know that dinosaurs were dead. On the other hand, I met an eight-year old who knew the whole story of Lowell, the canali and how he was proven wrong.

[xfahctor]

I know this is an old thread, but I had to dredge it up from the bone yard. I do a lot of political work (no, not turning this to a political discussion, don't worry) and it is the same thing in that field. I'm astounded at how many, even supposedly, educated people, have no idea about the constitution, our system of government, it's proper role, who's in it or anything. If it wasn't such a relevent thing to people's lives, it would be hilarious.
We can blame our education system, a general lack of caring to know and people's obsession with other obviously much more important things like American Idol or Britny Spears' day to day life among many other things.
The saddest fact in all of this is ignorance to both politics and astronomy or even basic laws of science, leads to all kinds of people being taken advantage of in all kinds of ways, by all kinds of people.

[John Jaksich]

Most sadly, some college graduates from of the most prestigious Universities in the world are subject to such fuzzy logic...even on their day of graduation--I had seen questions posed to them with the results disastrous.

It may not be that ignorance is bliss---but bliss breeds ignorance...

[Jeff Root]

xfahctor,

I'm curious about where I rank on the scale of knowledge-ignorance of
things political. Do you have or can you point me to a reasonably good
test that I could take? Somewhere around 30-40 questions, maybe?
I'd like a test of things considered important rather than trivia.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[schlaugh]

Jeff, whether these questions are important, trivial, or somewhere in between, they nonetheless represent what the INS asks of immigrants who want to become US Citizens.

http://usgovinfo.about.com/blinstst.htm

Also:

Naturalization Self Test (http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&ct=res&cd=2&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.uscis.gov%2Fvgn-ext-templating%2Fv%2Findex.jsp%3Fvgnextoid%3D9ff98424f 8304110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD%26vgnextchannel%3D 9ff98424f8304110VgnVCM1000004718190aRCRD&ei=ul1OSd6JA4SS8wTVqKm1Dw&usg=AFQjCNHRRJKE1Idyy6Dm8cJOREm14MME8w&sig2=zYSKv-9GVzU28ENfVMIk1A)

[slang]

I like the subtitle of the Straight Dope (http://www.straightdope.com/) website:



Fighting Ignorance Since 1973
(It's taking longer than we thought)

(Yes I know there was no 'web' in 1973, it allegdly existed as a newspaper column back then)

[xfahctor]

xfahctor,

I'm curious about where I rank on the scale of knowledge-ignorance of
things political. Do you have or can you point me to a reasonably good
test that I could take? Somewhere around 30-40 questions, maybe?
I'd like a test of things considered important rather than trivia.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis
I don't have a ready made "test" myself. The citizenship test is a good place to start I suppose. What I was refering to was far worse though, people who couldn't even identify the vice president, couldn't tell you why they liked a particular candidate other than "he's gonna unite us", people who believe that a president can "fire" a governor, people who thought the persident could overturn prop 8 in california, the list goes on and these aren't even the worst. Don't worry, I'm pretty sure you are well far and above this kind of stuff.

[Rex84]

Please tell me people aren't this ignorant
yes and worse.

Not only are the people that ignorant, they are born pregnant,even the men! And babies are having babies!! Also if you don't go along with their programs and philosophies, they will hunt you down and weed you out! I tell everyone I can to find a legit inside track on the research you are interested in and isolate the information curve. Ride the curve and dominate the curve!

And then there will finally be peace in the galaxy!

[Gillianren]

(Yes I know there was no 'web' in 1973, it allegdly existed as a newspaper column back then)

Allegedly? I have books featuring the old, pre-internet columns!

[Jeff Root]

Newspapers are just an urban legend, Gillian. Everyone knows that.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[Rex84]

One person's newspaper is another person's toilet tissue!

[slang]

Allegedly? I have books featuring the old, pre-internet columns!

Books prove nothing!! *throws some Sibrel hardcovers*

I was just to lazy to check, and didn't want to get called a liar. :)

[Starfury]

I am holding my head in my hands in utter shame right now. People, sadly, are that dumb.

[astromark]

Conditioned learning and knowing what you need to know. Just because you have a obsessive disorder does not rule the rest of humanity mad. The young man in a New York Street Gang has a very different set of needs to the equivalent person living in the jungles of Brazil. I could not care less about your vice president as I live where he can not have a real and present importance. That does not rule me dumb. Its selective importance. My forest dweller does not require the city skills.
Given the right circumstance you could need the survival skills of either. As in 'their' worlds 'they' are supreme. That is not dumb or a measure of inelegance is it?

[لطفيّ]

Yes Disinfo, I worded that wrong. Meant to say half not most. Thanks for the greeting!

Jim.

"Most" might be correct - I don't know. Half of all people are below the median, but the median can be different from the average.

Also, there may be more than one reasonable way to measure the units on an intelligence test. What does it mean for one person to be twice as intelligent as another? It's not exactly the same as measuring mass or length. If one intelligence scale is, for example, a logarithmic transform of another, then the number of people who are above and below average will be different in the two scales.

[closetgeek]

Conditioned learning and knowing what you need to know. Just because you have a obsessive disorder does not rule the rest of humanity mad. The young man in a New York Street Gang has a very different set of needs to the equivalent person living in the jungles of Brazil. I could not care less about your vice president as I live where he can not have a real and present importance. That does not rule me dumb. Its selective importance. My forest dweller does not require the city skills.
Given the right circumstance you could need the survival skills of either. As in 'their' worlds 'they' are supreme. That is not dumb or a measure of inelegance is it?

It really makes no difference to you, to know it, because you are not a resident, but I think the topic is more about US citizens who do not know who the vice president is, or what powers the President actually has. The thread is about ignorance, however, not intelligence.

The third response in The Bad Astronomer's link provides a suggestion that should put some minds at ease, people freeze under pressure. I, for one, once accidentally marked that Louis Armstrong went to the moon, after snickering at the idea of Lance Armstrong being an astronaut. :doh:

[danscope]

Louis Armstrong may have sang...."Fly me to the moon", but...
That's different. :)
Dan

[astromark]

Andy Williams might be able to help you with this... or was it Tony Bennett, and they are Americans...
Yes you are correct Neil Armstrong sang 'Fly me to the moon.' ( In his shower ). and so they did.

I still think you might be being a little hard on all those 'ignorant' folk. Our society has changed. No longer do we need to know whom we pay our taxes to and for.
Charles Darwin would not be to pleased with this but, the fittest and most intelligent of our species are not in charge norr are they breeding faster than the ignorant hords... We are dumbing ourselves down... You can not point or blame any part of society for what comes naturally.:)

[fifelad55]

Go into any bar where I stay (estimates of the number vary from 1,000 + to almost 3,000 or maybe more and ask any of the (predominantly) female staff a simple astronomical question and I can guarantee that at least 95% of them won't have a clue. It's not that they are stupid - far from it and if you believe they are, you do so at your peril - it's just that they are uneducated, very few of them having received more than the most basic of Primary School education.

Many of them are fluent in two languages (Thai and Laos). Quite a few will also speak Khmer (Cambodian). In addition, they can also speak English to a varying degree. I did find one girl in her 20's who couldn't read or write. I can read the Thai script albeit at a painfuly slow pace.

Alan

[01101001]

I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? [...] It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

BA Blog: 47% of Americans need to be launched into a heliocentric orbit (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/13/47-of-americans-need-to-be-launched-into-a-heliocentric-orbit/)


Only 53% of adult Americans know it takes the Earth a year to go around the Sun.

[hhEb09'1]

BA Blog: 47% of Americans need to be launched into a heliocentric orbit (http://blogs.discovermagazine.com/badastronomy/2009/03/13/47-of-americans-need-to-be-launched-into-a-heliocentric-orbit/)From the Science Daily webpage (http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2009/03/090312115133.htm):
Only 47% of adults can roughly approximate the percent of the Earth's surface that is covered with water.*

* The approximately correct answer range for this question was defined as anything between 65% and 75%. Only 15% of respondents answered this question with the exactly correct answer of 70%.
When you take the quiz on the front page of California Academy of Sciences' website (http://www.calacademy.org/), it says 71%. :)

[Jeff Root]

Nitrogen and water are both 70%.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[SpaceCowboy]

A lot of people are just plain stupid these days. haha

[danscope]

There's a difference. When someone is ignorant, they haven't been exposed to the pertinent knowledge.
When someone is stupid, they HAVE been exposed to the pertinent knowledge, but have "Chosen" to not heed, or refused to understand, or could care less about the facts in question, so as to have
"stooped" below their educational station. Someone who knows the frying pan is hot and picks it up without a pot holder is doing a stupid thing.
I think there is a lesson in this for all of us. Speeding in the snow and ice is a stupid thing to do. We "KNOW" it is wrong and that it could mean our life.
Drinking untill we pass out and driving home is stupid.
May you each have a happy St Patrick's day...safely at home.
See you soon, my friends.
Best regards,
Dan

[forrest noble]

uniqueuponhim,

Statistics can be deceiving. 58% could be 29 of 50 people in an impoverished part of town. Also the way that the question was phrased, written, or how the survey was conducted, could have been ambiguous or biased in some way. Maybe a Jay Leno type survey of the dumbest looking people in town?

Like you, I would seriously doubt that the adult population in France as a whole could be this ill informed. Like you said, it would probably be like seeing the same stats from a survey here in the U.S.

[JonClarke]

There's a difference. When someone is ignorant, they haven't been exposed to the pertinent knowledge.
When someone is stupid, they HAVE been exposed to the pertinent knowledge, but have "Chosen" to not heed, or refused to understand, or could care less about the facts in question, so as to have "stooped" below their educational station. Someone who knows the frying pan is hot and picks it up without a pot holder is doing a stupid thing.

There is a third category too. People who are exposed to a particular concept in education but don't retain it because they find it neither useful or interesting. I know people with PhD's in science who couldn't tell you the order of planets, because they are not interested and it is is not relevant to what they do. On the other hand I know manual labours who could because they are interested. I am not exempt. I was taught to do quadratic equations but I could not solve one to save my life, and have not been able to since I left school. And I don't care, either. :)

[danscope]

Hi Jon, You make an excellent point. Some knowledge comes under the heading of " Although I don't use it, I at least know where to find it".
Rather than beeing stupid, it is a defense mechanism to relieve subconcious stress concerning our ability to remember everything. Like you said; you studied quadratic equations so many years ago it isn't funny and although you haven't ever used them, it gives you the confidence to tackle any mathematical problem you encounter, so it's not a wasted effort.
But I can understand a youngster in college thinking..."Why study 'stupid'
quadratic equations; I'm never going to use them!". I think quite often we are simply 'weary' of putting so much time and effort into 'requirements for college credit ' , seeing no redeemable value in that pursuit.
It tests our blind faith in directed education. Supposedly, it builds character.
By now, we must be giants! :)
Best regards,Sir.
Dan

[blueberrydesk]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

:whistle:

[NickW]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

Very funny! :)
Sounds about right to me. :)

BTW, welcome to BAUT.

[HenrikOlsen]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidity?
My, not so funny, answer tends to be: Ignorance is curable.

[Tucson_Tim]

What's the difference between Ignorance and Stupidiy?



I don't know and I don't care.

:whistle:

Good one! :)

Frank Zappa: “Stupidity has a certain charm -- ignorance does not”

[malaidas]

The more logical and convencing we become, the more people will understand about astronomy and cosmos.

Sorry it seems to be the other way round at the moment in some places across the globe.

The more evidence and logical theories we have, the more we are lying, distorting the truth, involved in a government conspiricy to hide the presence of UFO, working for statan.... take your pick.

[MythozDog]

This guy by the name of Philadelphian posed an interesting point about the ScienceDaily article below. Was wondering how Phil would address his point?

ScienceDaily (Apr. 28, 2009) NASA's Swift satellite and an international team of astronomers have found a gamma-ray burst from a star that died when the universe was only 630 million years old, or less than five percent of its present age. The event, dubbed GRB 090423, is the most distant cosmic explosion ever seen


Philadelphian
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Something is wrong with the story. Someone is not thinking clearly.
If the star blew up when the universe was 630 million years old, the source of the blast could have only been 1260 million years from our stars original materials location at the time.
1260 million is 1 billion 260 million. If the universe is 15 billion years old, the gamma rays would have passed us and vanished 13 billion 110million years ago.
What kind of crap are the governments mouthpieces handing out? Do they realize 99.9 human beings are sheeple without cognitive ability?

[slang]

Cute. Perhaps someone should introduce mr. Philadelphian to the concept of expansion. He's only several decades behind on the facts, but that's ok. Some do worse. :)

[MythozDog]

Cute. Perhaps someone should introduce mr. Philadelphian to the concept of expansion. He's only several decades behind on the facts, but that's ok. Some do worse. :)

A little more specific Slang if you don't mind? : ) Are you saying that the universe was expanding at the speed of light before the gamma ray burst initially but has since slowed where as the gamma ray continues unabated and has finally caught up?

[slang]

A little more specific Slang if you don't mind? : ) Are you saying that the universe was expanding at the speed of light before the gamma ray burst initially but has since slowed where as the gamma ray continues unabated and has finally caught up?

I'm pretty tired right now, and don't feel up to writing a full explanation. But I can link you to Ned Wright's Frequently Asked Questions page (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html). He's a very respected source, and if your answer isn't in this page (http://www.astro.ucla.edu/~wright/cosmology_faq.html#FTL), it probably is in one of the linked pages. If that doesn't help you, try searching the questions and answers forum here for the word 'expansion'.

[Jeff Root]

As slang indicates, the question of how far light travels to reach us
from cosmologically-distant sources has been addressed here many times.
Essentially, the light acts like an ant walking at constant speed on a rope
that is stretching. The rope can either be stretching at a constant rate
or the rate of stretching can be changing. Either way, even though the
ant at first is getting farther and farther away from its goal, eventually it
starts to get closer, and finally gets to the far end of the rope.

Try a search on the word 'rope' plus either 'expansion' or 'expand'.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[AndrewJ]

Essentially, the light acts like an ant walking at constant speed on a rope that is stretching.

I was surprised when I first heard of this phenomenon and initially erroneously mixed the analogy with Xeno's paradox.

I have read the threads on the ant-rubber-rope analogy and thought about it in the bath for some nights. This is how I visualize it:

A rubber rope is staked to the ground and stretched at the other end: the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches (the expansion of space increases with distance). A little ant (photon) near the stretched end of the rope walks at a set speed (speed of light) toward the stake (your retina). The stretching is initially faster than the ant's progress (space is expanding faster than c) so the ant initially moves backward relative to the stake (us). However, the ant is moving along the rope (through space) so although retreating from us will proceeed to a point where his rate of acceleration from the stake decreases. Although for the time being he moves backward relative to the stake his progress means his acceleration away from us is ever decreasing. Eventually, he will reach a point whereafter his progress toward the stake will exceed his being stretched away from the stake (expansion of space < c) and he will be able to make ground on the stake (us).

Therefore, the ant will conquer the stretched rope and EM radiation can get to us across superluminally expanding space.

If this is wrong please, please let me know and I can go back to the drawing board.

[nokton]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJlyNv4KU&mode=related&search=

Hi there, what people believe is what they want to, you cannot change it. Disagree with
you can, but learn this, a man convinced against his will, is a man of the same opinion still
Nokton

[01101001]

Hi there, what people believe is what they want to, you cannot change it.

They cannot be persuaded to believe otherwise by good data and sound logic?

We might as well shut BAUT Forum down.

And close the schools, burn the libraries, and disconnect the Internet.

[Gillianren]

You know, people have their beliefs, much less their knowledge of things, change all the time. Many of them are either too religious or too political for this board--but that's rather the point, isn't it? Those are things we hold dear to us, things we consider an important part of who we are, but people do change them.

As for education, well, of course it can change what people think!

[HenrikOlsen]

Therefore, the ant will conquer the stretched rope and EM radiation can get to us across superluminally expanding space.

If this is wrong please, please let me know and I can go back to the drawing board.
It is a bit like one of Xeno's paradoxes(he made four), but turned around.

Think of it this way: if the distance left to travel keeps growing faster than the ant travels, it will never get there.
If the expansion stops, then eventually it will get there.

BTW, the ant analogy has one little twist in that, as the rubber band stretches, the little bit between the ant's legs stretches as well tiring the ant so it has less energy. As it's moving at constant speed this lowered energy has to be expressed as lower frequency, thus red-shifted.

[AndrewJ]

Thanks for the feedback, Henrik.


the ant analogy has one little twist in that, as the rubber band stretches, the little bit between the ant's legs stretches as well tiring the ant so it has less energy. As it's moving at constant speed this lowered energy has to be expressed as lower frequency, thus red-shifted.

I like that, great analogy of EM red-shift!



if the distance left to travel keeps growing faster than the ant travels, it will never get there.
If the expansion stops, then eventually it will get there. (bold by AndrewJ)


So really the ant-rope analogy applies to photons emitted whilst the expansion of space was decelerating from its initial superluminal expansion and before the MES accelarated again due to dark energy (maybe 5 billion years ago)? :think:

[TJMac]

I have a hard time believing this is real.

part removed, adhoms are against the rules of BAUT.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJlyNv4KU&mode=related&search=





I am reminded of the fictional Forrest Gump, who was told by his mother, also fictional, "Stupid is as Stupid Does." I doubt anyone has a monopoly on it, regardless of their locale.

TJ

[MattTheTubaGuy]

Didn't Einstein say
“Two things are infinite: the universe and human stupidity; and I'm not sure about the the universe.”

I really can't believe some of the things some people believe, although I have to admit I am a bit gullible myself.
I used to believe the 'young earth' theory, and that mac book wheel (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s0Gzq-QEt0s), at least until I got pointed out the onion!
Interesting the ant on an elastic string analogy.:)

[tdvance]

I like that video--"everything is just a few hundred clicks away" the man says!

[billy2]

I was surprised when I first heard of this phenomenon and initially erroneously mixed the analogy with Xeno's paradox.

I have read the threads on the ant-rubber-rope analogy and thought about it in the bath for some nights. This is how I visualize it:

A rubber rope is staked to the ground and stretched at the other end: the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches (the expansion of space increases with distance). A little ant (photon) near the stretched end of the rope walks at a set speed (speed of light) toward the stake (your retina).

I never understood this. What about the Ant walking away from your Retina on the same rubber rope towards another persons distant Retina.

[Jeff Root]

A rubber rope is staked to the ground and stretched at the other end:
the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches (the expansion
of space increases with distance). A little ant (photon) near the stretched
end of the rope walks at a set speed (speed of light) toward the stake
(your retina).
I never understood this. What about the Ant walking away from your
Retina on the same rubber rope towards another persons distant Retina.
What about it?

Andrew's discription may be misleading: When he says,
"the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches", he really
means, "the further from the stake, the faster that part of the rope
is moving away from the stake." The stretching is the same along the
entire length of the rope. There is no difference between the two
ends or between the two directions. The rope could be infinitely long,
with ants walking along the rope in both directions, passing over marks
made on the rope at intervals. An ant that walks from one mark to
another mark nearby will make progress toward the second mark from
the beginning of its trip. If it tries to walk to a mark which is far
away, it will initially be getting farther and farther from that mark
as the rope stretches. But as the ant progresses along the rope, there
is less and less stretching between it and the mark it is headed for,
so eventually the ant starts getting closer to it.

This works if the rope is stretching at a constant rate or a slowing
rate. Until 1998 it was assumed that the cosmic expansion was slowing
due to the gravitational attraction of everything in the Universe to
everything else in the Universe. In 1998 it was discovered that the
expansion has been accelerating for the last several billion years.
An increasing rate of stretching like that would make it impossible
for the ant to reach very distant marks on the rope because they
would always be moving away from the ant faster than the ant was
walking toward them.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[billy2]

What about it?

Andrew's discription may be misleading: When he says,
"the further from the stake the more the rubber stretches", he really
means, "the further from the stake, the faster that part of the rope
is moving away from the stake." The stretching is the same along the
entire length of the rope. There is no difference between the two
ends or between the two directions.
-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

Understood. Thing is, and there is a lot of it on this forum, unless you already know in your head what someone's really saying trying to say, maybe from a previous thread, then you end up asking questions like mine. Taking it at face value what Andrew said couldn't be right. If a newbie had invented that analogy and posted it, he'd have been pulled up right away.

[Craigboy]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D9yJlyNv4KU&mode=related&search=
I have a hard time believing statistics, but than again I once new a girl who thought the space shuttle could fly to the moon by than again from the public's point of view why wouldn't it.

[Hungry4info]

To someone not actually much into spaceflight, it may not be obvious why the space shuttle can't go to the moon, so to be honest, I could understand that.

[neilzero]

Keep in mind, some people enjoy pulling your chain by professing outlandish beliefs. Others do it, because it often terminates the discussion quickly. Neil

[iniaes]

I've been told about how everything spins around the earth on perfectly "sperical" orbits. this guy got a very long e-mail, and promptly ignored it. . .

[karadan]

Whatever you do, don't go to your local town council meetings....

(We've got people here debating about the 'mind control drugs' in our flouridated water... seriously...)

Wow.. What country is that in?

[danscope]

Shades of Colonel Jack Ripper ; who went mad as a hatter, and pondered flouridation of the water.
From .... Dr. Strangelove

[baskerbosse]

This reminds me about when I was in the airforce.
It was a particularly clear night and we were sitting a group admiring the night sky.
I made a comment on the vastness of the universe and the billions of suns.
Our commanding officer turned around and said "Do you mean all the stars are SUNS!!"


/Peter

[danscope]

Ah..... a moment of clarity for him ! :)

[astromark]

I do not much like the fact that Joe Public and, Sam Ordinary just do not care as we do for the science of astronomy.

These are testament to a work colleague whom was herd to say... " Something is very wrong... Why is the moon still up its 8. 30 am". ...

I looked across the tool room and wondered why he ever went to school ? and he had meant it. After a quick conversation regarding the twenty eight days cycle and how it happens like clockwork.

He shrugged and said. "No, it goes round every day." and then.. " If Earth were to spin we would be flung off..."

Where do these people come from ?

No. I do not see a dumbing down. I just see 'I could not care less...'

How do we fix that ? I can only plead that we keep opening the astronomy observatories and just maybe once in a while...

Dad or mom will bring the child back... and to the OP ; I am afraid that they are.

[baskerbosse]

Ah..... a moment of clarity for him ! :)

-And 10 minutes of embarrassed silence.. :-)

[danscope]

Intellect starts with the parents and the early child's interest and facination with learning. If that environment is thwarted and quashed by the presence of disturbed individuals which disrupt that environment , less than ideal results ensue. THAT is why parents continue to scrutinize their child's friends and environment.
Raising children builds character . It is a continuing role .
The "Street" is not a role model .

[astromark]

Wow.. ! Most people do not visit this web site. That is not a startling revelation but, is I am afraid true.

The general knowledge of humanity would be enriched and strengthened if they did...

WE, THIS. should be compulsory... or just added to the school curriculum.

An aspiring young politician said; " If you educate them, they wont need us. I need a sheeple* mentality.."

Most of humanity go about there lives with scant regard for things astronomicle. We can not expect that to change.

When a tabloid news media announce a doomsday event... they look up from the paddock... and to us they come for guidance ?

No not always, but when they do a precise and accurate answer must be at hand... or we loose them to the woo woo group.

We just have to except that for most people astronomy, science. Is not part of their lives.

[vonmazur]

"Yonder is Dubhe seen on Earth tonight as it was in the days of Grover Cleveland's presidency whereas this way is Deneb seen as it was in the lifetime of Muhammed . If one somehow travelled to Deneb at very close to c then whenever you looked back you'd measure Earth as closer to you than the distance you would simultaneously measure between Earth and Dubhe."

Wait a minute, "Dubhe" is that the Star Frank Sinatra came from?? Or was it a rock band in the 70's?? or the other one that is too silly to mention??

Dale

[astromark]

Heh..:eh:Dubhe, dubhe doo.. Strangers in the night... Yes good old Frank. No not the other one...:o:Bahahaha...

and there is a fundamentalist group that has myths of interstellar travel... but we might get squished if we talk of it here. :(Oops.

and I think a news item today has some ( little ) point to make regarding this thread...

James Cameron of Avatar fame has been herd to say that we require a greater political will

and a greater need to get humanity onto Mars.

Lifting public awareness and raising the issues.. Its a uphill battle. People are generally complacent.

As much as the small group of astronomy minded people that frequent this forum, care.

The rest of the human race are too busy with Facebook, Skype, Bebo, and all sorts of other essentialist pastimes......

I see them often. Even when driving, texting, texting without looking, ( how does that work? ).

I am afraid the apathy is spreading. We can not win.. ( Some ) People are that ignorant.. but that is there right.

[nokton]

Heh..:eh:Dubhe, dubhe doo.. Strangers in the night... Yes good old Frank. No not the other one...:o:Bahahaha...

and there is a fundamentalist group that has myths of interstellar travel... but we might get squished if we talk of it here. :(Oops.

and I think a news item today has some ( little ) point to make regarding this thread...

James Cameron of Avatar fame has been herd to say that we require a greater political will

and a greater need to get humanity onto Mars.

Lifting public awareness and raising the issues.. Its a uphill battle. People are generally complacent.

As much as the small group of astronomy minded people that frequent this forum, care.

The rest of the human race are too busy with Facebook, Skype, Bebo, and all sorts of other essentialist pastimes......

I see them often. Even when driving, texting, texting without looking, ( how does that work? ).

I am afraid the apathy is spreading. We can not win.. ( Some ) People are that ignorant.. but that is there right.

Hi astro, not seen you so apathetic and depressed. Thought you astro, more in touch with humankind.
the status quo takes second place to parents with families, and breadwinners protecting their jobs.
But, there are some who look upon a wider picture, that includes most on this forum,
You say people are ignorant astro, no, my friend, they have different priorities than you do.
Please astro, be a little more upbeat and positive, I always enjoyed reading your posts.
Nokton.

[astromark]

Looking back across this... should I wait until the 19th of October to answer you... and I agree, no... so here it is then.

I have contributed to the tenure of this thread... that people are that ignorant...Please tell me they are not..

Being VERY careful not to point the finger in ANY direction while thinking this...Lol:eh:

I will not place myself above any other. For reasons such as I am short... :clap:and,

Its insulting. I try not to be that. Its trouble., and infractions can be avoided this way...

It might actually be more reasonable to suggest that people in general are NOT ignorant at all.

Most if not all have had some opportunity to attain a education that disqualifies the word ignorant.

So the premise is wrong... ' People aren't that ignorant. ' Because despite the education opportunity some choose to be.

Astronomy and the sciences have generally failed to be of any importance to warrant any attention at all.

This is astonishing and disappointing. Drawing me to add. The masses do not care.

A pessimist is a informed optimist... SO... So how do we fix it. Because fix it we should. Or try to at the least.

We have a passion for this science astronomy. I can understand why the masses generally do not care.

Its not exciting is it ?

Its hard to foster interest when nothing is actually happening.

Which is in itself a very good thing... because it could get dangerous round here if it did.

But rest easy... because you and I and most of the good people that visit these very pages CARE.

A more interesting point might be... how do we improve the want. To go where no man has gone..... you know the rest.

[CosmicUnderstanding]

I love astronomy and I love learning about the reality of the universe and planet around me. However, if I were to visit a sports forum, I'm sure I could easily come across a "Please tell me people aren't this ignorant about sports" thread. I just care about stuff that truly matters to me personally, which is why I'm a part of this forum now. Sports isn't of any interest to me so I am admittedly very ignorant. Not everyone is interested in space and not everyone has to be interested in space. It's important for the people who are interested to continue furthering their education on the topic though for the greater benefit of humanity. Can you imagine if no one ever took interest in the stars? If every single person on our planet continued caring about trivial things like sports, we'd be history when the Sun eventually explodes.

[Gillianren]

Knowing that the Earth orbits the Sun is slightly more important than, well, most of what we talk about around here is for the common person. And than anything to do with sports other than that you ought to exercise if you're to remain healthy.

[astromark]

Phrased as a question; "Please tell me people aren't this ignorant ?" I am a little bewildered by what 'this' might mean.

Fearing that it to is a sweeping generalization. With a passing regard for humanities future...

It would seem that most of us have a concern of survival concept. Without being overly paranoid... We should show a greater concern.

Redirecting the defense budget to a space program... Its a big ask.

[HenrikOlsen]

The OP included the definition of "this".

[astromark]

Fine, and thanks. So there are some that are so miss informed or uneducated as to not know that the Sun is the central mass object of this solar system...

I was only attempting to widen this discussion into a more general inquirer... The why is related to the busy lifestyles we all live...

This is not just a discussion about why 'this' ignorance of the science of astronomy is apparent. but how can people be so uncaring...

I think the same astonishing results would be tabled if you asked many science questions... Like ' What is a rainbow ? '

[danscope]

It boils down to a lack of intellectual confidence too often found in lazy people. Once they discover the concept of "Why do I need to know this ? " ,
their brain becomes a collander . More interested in their knife or their nailpolish and certainly more interested in their text messaging.
Science makes them cry... as Lewis Black might say. And so , you see them on 'Jaywalking' with Jay Leno . Hmmm.......

[astromark]

Lol ! :eh:Not that it was a question;... but the answer is. 'Yes,. I am afraid they are...':clap:

[Strange]

Knowing that the Earth orbits the Sun is slightly more important than, well, most of what we talk about around here is for the common person.

Is it though? I am surprised that there are people who don't know this but I'm not sure it matters, at least not in a practical sense. If the Astronomer Royal or the President's chief science adviser didn't know, I might be worried. But is it going to make a difference to Jane Doe as she does her job in a machine shop?

[Gillianren]

Since it influences things like the seasons, yes.

[Strange]

Since it influences things like the seasons, yes.

But the seasons will still happen (and people will still understand them) whether some people know about heliocentrism or not. It is shocking and that people don't possibly an indictment of the educational system, but it is quite low on my list of Important Thing Folks Should Know. It wouldn't actually matter if I didn't know, for example. But as long as some people (the right people) know then we are OK. :)

[danscope]

Well, the point here is that.... in a modern world , and given the 'attempt ' at education , and trying to instill a situational awareness ,
there are some people who have a deliberate desire to " not learn anything " , supposedly to free them of responsibility for themselves in that
theater . They are in trouble and don't know it . You don't see them pumping gas , do ya ? No . That job has evaporated .
Incompetence is no way to go through life.

[Jeff Root]

The fact that the Earth orbits the Sun seems to me a particularly
fundamental tidbit of information about our place in the Order
of Things. Other tidbits may have greater practical import, but
don't say as much about how we fit into the Grand Scheme of
things in general.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[senua]

Working in a Science center you hear all sorts of mis conceptions and mis information.
I present planetarium shows and have had my fiar share of creationists moaning at me about telling their children that we are made of star dust and that the Earth is billions of years old.
One woman was surprised to discover that stars were Suns. She thought they were reflections from the Sun.
Another woman didn't know that everything was made of molecules.
The amount of ignorance is astounding.

[danscope]

But she can tell you all about the nail polish she worked with in highschool while some teacher blabbed on and on about gravity and stuff and
planets and stuff an all those retro rockets and stuff. Sounds like a few candidates for "Jaywalking Allstars" . Hmmmmm.....

[danscope]

I think the ignorant people can, at times, make you quite proud of your own education and celibrate the hard work you put into it.
Helps you to appreciate the Baut forum .
Here's to a proper education well earned ..... to everyone .

[Gillianren]

Can I (probably once again) point out that people who don't construct proper sentences only have so much room to criticize someone else's ignorance?

[danscope]

Hi Gillian , Am I guilty of playing with cyber sentences? Tsk tsk . Well I shall accept your criticism .

[99gecko]

Gillian,

There are a few reasons I do not post very often outside of the Fun 'n Games forum. One of them is that most of the time I am here to learn as astronomy and space is not my field. Secondly, is that on several occasions I have encountered comments like yours.

I know that my English is not very good. It is my second language ( I can communicate in three), but I am very proud of the fact that I acquired a university education in English, and work on a daily occurrence in two languages. Therefore with subjects that I am not entirely comfortable with I often make mistakes - written spelling, grammar, construction etc. For many years I have struggled with word choices. Unfortunately in my efforts to correct that, I often make additional grammatical errors. This is not uncommon in my experience. This fact is increasingly so, in that I often do not have much time to generate and review my posts here.

I most firmly believe The fact that I struggle with the English language should not deter from the content of my posts. I am most certain from looking at BAUT member's locations, that there are other members that likely are here with English not as their mother tongue, and feel the same way. Just because this forum operates in English, one should not assume English is native to all members.

I would like to suggest to you that some consideration be given when making statements such as yours in post #124. In my humble opinion, to do otherwise is approaching a straw-man fallacy position, or at worse, passive censorship.

I value your opinions and arguements, but I would hope you would value the content of the thoughts of your fellow members in return.

cheers.

[Gillianren]

Your English is excellent, as it happens. It also happens that I know several of the people at whom that comment was aimed speak English as a first language. I can also assure you that several of our non-native speakers ask me to correct them. I have assured those members that, when they make errors, I will.

[Swift]

Let's not turn this thread into a grammar debate, or into a debate as whether someone should correct others' grammar.

[caveman1917]

I can also assure you that several of our non-native speakers ask me to correct them. I have assured those members that, when they make errors, I will.

Would you put me on that list please? I know my english is far from decent, so a chance to learn would be appreciated :)

ETA: i hope this post didn't go against Swift's warning.

[Kyrre]

I would also be joining in for the grammar lessons, and find it actually close to the topic: it seems to be a close correlation between bothering to write well and having something worthwile to say. Grammatical errors can't bedevil the clearest argument chain, but sloppy writing is something different from honest mistakes, and the latter seem to go hand in hand with sloppy thinking.

[profloater]

There seems to be a lot of condescension confusing ignorance with stupidity and this ignorance is not necessarily a personal fault. The OP was about appreciating that the Earth spins, explaining the clear observation that the sun appears to orbit around the earth. If you are not told that in a clear way it would be a huge intellectual leap to guess that the earth is round and rotates in space. The issue is education (again) and motivation of students (again) and not stupidity. I cannot remember the point at which I was told about the earth spinning etc but it must have been very early in childhood and I wonder if I lived in an age of ignorance, would I ever work it out?

[Spoons]

... Grammatical errors can't bedevil the clearest argument chain, but sloppy writing is something different from honest mistakes, and the latter seem to go hand in hand with sloppy thinking.
You mean the former, right? That sloppy writing and sloppy thinking go hand in hand? I assume that was an honest mistake. ;)

[slang]

You mean the former, right? That sloppy writing and sloppy thinking go hand in hand? I assume that was an honest mistake. ;)

Ouch! But yes. :)

[astromark]

To the OP... Please tell me people are not this ignorant. OK. I can say People are not that ignorant, but that would be a lie.

The general masses simply have so little care for the science of astronomy that when some obscure statement is made,

Little or no knowledge is apparent. Nubaru is coming and will destroy life on Earth.. That is simply 'not true'.

However.. even a quick search across even this forum leaves you wondering where this rubbish comes from.

and why does it capture such enthusiastic fervent hysteria... ignorance rules. It would seem.

I have mentioned this previously...

A 40 year old came across the truck stop depo.. " What's the Moon in the daytime sky for ?"

At three pm on a clear day.. I said. ' Mark it on your calendar.. It will be there again in 28 days.'

He replied... " No its wrong, there's something wrong.." I replied with ' Google it. They will know.'

He never did come back at me... Did he leave to build a bunker...?:)

The truth is.. He did not care enough to enquire.. complacency is the enemy.

[Luckmeister]

A 40 year old came across the truck stop depo.. " What's the Moon in the daytime sky for ?"

At three pm on a clear day.. I said. ' Mark it on your calendar.. It will be there again in 28 days.'

He replied... " No its wrong, there's something wrong.." I replied with ' Google it. They will know.'

He never did come back at me... Did he leave to build a bunker...?:)

The truth is.. He did not care enough to enquire.. complacency is the enemy.

Or he may have had no idea what "Google it" meant.

[slang]

"What's the Moon in the daytime sky for ?"

That is ignorant! It might just as well be against something.

[Swift]

I'm reminded of this:

The sun was shining on the sea,
Shining with all his might:
He did his very best to make
The billows smooth and bright--
And this was odd, because it was
The middle of the night.

The moon was shining sulkily,
Because she thought the sun
Had got no business to be there
After the day was done--
"It's very rude of him," she said,
"To come and spoil the fun!"

:)

[matterdoc]

I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around.


Simple mechanics shows us that no free body can orbit around another moving body in any type of closed geometrical path. Sun is a moving body. Yet every text book and all literature show earth as orbiting around the sun in elliptical path. An ellipse is a closed geometrical figure. This incorrect view introduced too many errors in cosmology.

[Hornblower]

Simple mechanics shows us that no free body can orbit around another moving body in any type of closed geometrical path. Sun is a moving body. Yet every text book and all literature show earth as orbiting around the sun in elliptical path. An ellipse is a closed geometrical figure. This incorrect view introduced too many errors in cosmology.

If we observe from a frame of reference in which the solar system is moving across our line of sight, of course the Earth will appear to be moving in a looping, open path. That path can be described by the vector sum of the translational motion of the system and the orbital motion in an elliptical path around the Earth-Sun barycenter. When we transform our viewpoint to make the barycenter appear to be stationary, the Earth's observed motion becomes a closed ellipse around the barycenter.

Can you show us, in appropriate mathematical detail, why you think there is something incorrect about this analysis?

[astromark]

This;
Originally Posted by uniqueuponhim Quote;
I have a hard time believing this is real. I *might* expect something like this from the US, but France? Can anyone confirm whether or not this is real, or if it was staged? It's hard for me to believe that 400 years after Galileo, 58% of people still don't know that the earth orbits about the sun, not the other way around. End Quote...

I can assure you that a frighteningly large number of people know so little of things astronomicle as to render this 'TRUE'.
That they simply do not care is also 'TRUE'.

and then;

Simple mechanics shows us that no free body can orbit around another moving body in any type of closed geometrical path. Sun is a moving body. Yet every text book and all literature show earth as orbiting around the sun in elliptical path. An ellipse is a closed geometrical figure. This incorrect view introduced too many errors in cosmology.

Your point is misguided if not just wrong. That the sun is moving as Earth ( and everything else ) orbits it is a FACT.

The presence of the gravity well that is not motionless does not suggest a stable orbit of it can not be found.

It has. Is and we are here as proof of it... What are you talking about ?

[Haumean]

Astronomy and space industry are presented to the general public as a "waste of tax payers money", I'm speechless when I hear something like "why wasting all these billions just to do a little research..."

Poeple tend to ignore that space is the future.

[Jeff Root]

Space *might* be the future. There are an awful lot of "ifs".

Of course, if Space *isn't* the future, then there probably
isn't as much of a future as many people want.

-- Jeff, in Minneapolis

[KaiYeves]

Astronomy and space industry are presented to the general public as a "waste of tax payers money", I'm speechless when I hear something like "why wasting all these billions just to do a little research..."

Poeple tend to ignore that space is the future.
Welcome to BAUT, 'cause you seem like my kind of guy!