Star Trek, Star Wars and cloaking devices

[snowcelt]

I think that you would need three channels. Channel one would be a deconstruction beam. The second channel would be the transport. The third---well, what else? This beam would have to be a fead-back 'beam'. beaming to a transport sight and from a transport source, the local would have to be a known
source. All locals/transports would have to be initiated from a primary source.

[SollyLama]

Question: What did the Federation get in return for not developing cloaking technology? I know they mentioned it somewhere.

Cloaking has proven ineffective anyway. In at least 2 episodes (one was where the Romulan that looked like Tasha Yar) the Enterprise was able to track, very well, the movements of cloaked Romulan vessels. I'm fuzzy here, but I think it was some Tachyon emission or sub-space distortion they were able to detect.

What's worse, the Federation apparently hasn't bothered with cloak-detection equipment. Geordi and Data just seem to come up with the answer off the cuff. Later episodes do not take advantage of this discovery and the Enterprise remains at the mercy of cloaked vessels. Too much pot on the ship I guess as Geordi seems to have short-term memory loss.

Am I wrong, or didn't the Borg beam over to the Enterprise with it's shields raised? I know they might possess the technology to do that, but since it wasn't even mentioned, I suspect poor continuity on the part of the writers.

One more question: Would vessels as large as the capital ships in ST exert a noticable gravity field on a nearby ship? After all, they are able to create Earth-levels of artificial gravity. Even if it's artificial, it's simulating the gravity created by 1 Earth mass.

[Colt]

Just read Solly's post while trying to post mine (got an error).

I think that the Fed's compensation is that the Romulans do not create trouble or something along those lines. I think in that episode the tachyon emission was a malfunction with the cloaking device.

Just because it is the Enterprise-D does not mean that they will have the latest technology and developments in research. I think that almost all research is done in the Sol system and the Enterprise only goes back there every once in a while. And while the Federation might develop new tracking techniques the Romulans will have advanced their cloaking technology. Remember that the only time the Federation has violated that treaty is when the Pegasus was equipped with an Interphase Generator (piecing this together by reading entries in the Encyclopedia), this would allow it to be cloaked normally but also able to move through normal matter.. Coincidentally, it was stuck in solid rock because of a malfunction. Another entry, "Treaty of Algernon". Apparently that was where it was decided that the Federation could not develop cloaking technology. This was after the Terran-Romulan Nuclear War (supposedly the Federation was formed sometime during the war or shortly thereafter, this could actually come up as a huge story arc on Enterprise if things are played right).

Now, my original post:

Don't any of you have a Star Trek: TNG Technical Manual? If you are as fanatical about this stuff as I am (most of you seem to be..) then you need a copy.

I will try to sum up the section on transporters which is about seven pages long. I'll mostly just give tidbits of information to help the discussion along.


Pattern buffer Doppler compensation - The matter stream is briefly held in the pattern buffer, which allows the system to compensate for the Doppler shift between the ship and the transport destination. The pattern buffer also acts as a safety device in case of system malfunction, permitting transport ot be aborted to another chamber. Pg.103


Pattern buffer - This superconducting tokamak device delays transmission of the matter stream so that Doppler compensators can correct for relative motion between the emitter array and the target. Pg.104

So it would appear that there is an actual transportation of material along an energy pathway. I have theorized before that the transporters are not as perfect as they appear to be.. Like bits go missing sometimes and that is why there is a resevoir of stored material, to replace those missing bits. I think that in one of the episodes there is mention of the transporter damaging your brain so that you develop a sort of disease.

*runs to get ST Encyclopaedia*

Ah, here we go:

Transporter Psychosis - Rare medical disorder caused by a breakdown of neurochemical molecules during transport. Transporter psychosis was first diagnosed in 2209 by researchers on planet Delinia II. The condition affected the body's motor functions, as well as autonomic systems and higher brain functions. Victims were found to suffer from paranoid delusions, multi-infarct (infarct?) dementia, tactile and visual hallucinations, and psychogenic hysteria. Peripheral symptoms included sleplessness, accelerated heart rate, myopia, muscular spasms, and dyhdration. The problem was elminated around 2319 with teh development of the multiplex pattern buffer. Lieutenant Reginald Barclay, suffering from acute fear of transporting, believed he might have been experiencing transporter psychosis. ("Realm of Fear"[TNG]). Pg. 349

Pondering this, it comes to reason that transporters should not be able to transport through objects (or into buildings). Either way, whether it is a transmission of data or data and matter then I think that something solid would interfere with it in a very bad way. And thinking of this also it is obvious why a thunder storm could easily interfere with the transporter beam. What if you did try to transport into a building? Would the matter stream be splashed all over the top of the building, Riker turns into a fine spray of dust.. The way that Riker was replicated with the transporter when it was reflected back makes sense. Electrical storms can do strange things to radio and other comm systems; reflecting and disrupting the transmission.

The largest problem I see with Stuart's concept of it collecting local matter to form the transported person is that there should be a hole or something where the person materializes at. Also, think of the implications of transporting into a ship.. The transporter wouldn't be able to say "Look, that is the warp core, don't take matter from that for materilization." It would collect indiscrimnately. There is also the case of the required material not being available at the site.

One other error that I don't see the ST universe as being able to get around is site-to-site transportation (inside of the ship at least). There would have to be Emitter Arrays all over the inside of the ship for this to work. Of course they could be placed in locations like Engineering and Sickbay.

I do not watch Star Trek or Star Wars to nitpick, I watch them for entertainment and my fascination with SF. Though I am a very big Trek Techie. :D

Edit: The genius stretches thin. -Colt

[Firefox]

I think in that episode the tachyon emission was a malfunction with the cloaking device.

According to the Encyclopedia, detecting cloaked ships requires a fleet of ships emitting a grid of tachyon particles. There was no mention of malfunctioning cloaking devices, unless you're suggesting that every Romulan ship had problems.

There is another example of a tachyon grid employed for the same purpose, used by the Klingons to protect their Ty'Gokor space station.


Apparently that was where it was decided that the Federation could not develop cloaking technology. This was after the Terran-Romulan Nuclear War (supposedly the Federation was formed sometime during the war or shortly thereafter, this could actually come up as a huge story arc on Enterprise if things are played right).

The entry in the Encyclopedia gives no mention as to what the Federation would gain from the Treaty, just that they signed it "in good faith."


Don't any of you have a Star Trek: TNG Technical Manual? If you are as fanatical about this stuff as I am (most of you seem to be..) then you need a copy.

I have a copy, but unfortunately, I've read that the tech manuals were declared by Paramount to be "speculative", and have no bearing on the canon. I wouldn't blame them, especially considering the glaring errors in the DS9 manual.

Going back to an older post:


I actually got the notion from Star Wars that they had to calculate a path around all of the known objects along their trip, that is why Solo says something about the computer needing time to do this.

That's part of it, but that doesn't mean ships traveling in hyperspace are completely blind. They are able to detect so-called "mass shadows" that exist in hyperspace. These are apparently what make hyperdrive travel dangerous in terms of navigation.

At any rate, I doubt any handicaps in regards to sensor use and hyperspace are outweighed by the benefits hyperdrive possesses, both economically, and strategically. While it was estimated Voyager would have had to cross the galaxy from Delta Quadrant to Earth in 75 years, a ship, such as the Sith Infiltrator, could have made the same journey in a day or so, to say nothing about the inherent hazards posed by those dirty, explosive warp cores employed on Federation vessels.

One thing I've learned in regards to cloaking technology in the Star Wars universe, is that none are invulnerable to what is called a Crystal Gravfield Trap Device. It's an expensive system used on command ships and other high-priority ships and facilities, that can detect the gravitational effect of a cloaked ship. I would imagine that even a ship using the phase cloak developed for the Pegasus would not escape detection. Even a ship like that would have to exert gravitational forces.


Adam

[Colt]

I think in that episode the tachyon emission was a malfunction with the cloaking device.

According to the Encyclopedia, detecting cloaked ships requires a fleet of ships emitting a grid of tachyon particles. There was no mention of malfunctioning cloaking devices, unless you're suggesting that every Romulan ship had problems.

There is another example of a tachyon grid employed for the same purpose, used by the Klingons to protect their Ty'Gokor space station.


Apparently that was where it was decided that the Federation could not develop cloaking technology. This was after the Terran-Romulan Nuclear War (supposedly the Federation was formed sometime during the war or shortly thereafter, this could actually come up as a huge story arc on Enterprise if things are played right).

The entry in the Encyclopedia gives no mention as to what the Federation would gain from the Treaty, just that they signed it "in good faith."


Don't any of you have a Star Trek: TNG Technical Manual? If you are as fanatical about this stuff as I am (most of you seem to be..) then you need a copy.

I have a copy, but unfortunately, I've read that the tech manuals were declared by Paramount to be "speculative", and have no bearing on the canon. I wouldn't blame them, especially considering the glaring errors in the DS9 manual.

Going back to an older post:


I actually got the notion from Star Wars that they had to calculate a path around all of the known objects along their trip, that is why Solo says something about the computer needing time to do this.

That's part of it, but that doesn't mean ships traveling in hyperspace are completely blind. They are able to detect so-called "mass shadows" that exist in hyperspace. These are apparently what make hyperdrive travel dangerous in terms of navigation.

At any rate, I doubt any handicaps in regards to sensor use and hyperspace are outweighed by the benefits hyperdrive possesses, both economically, and strategically. While it was estimated Voyager would have had to cross the galaxy from Delta Quadrant to Earth in 75 years, a ship, such as the Sith Infiltrator, could have made the same journey in a day or so, to say nothing about the inherent hazards posed by those dirty, explosive warp cores employed on Federation vessels.

One thing I've learned in regards to cloaking technology in the Star Wars universe, is that none are invulnerable to what is called a Crystal Gravfield Trap Device. It's an expensive system used on command ships and other high-priority ships and facilities, that can detect the gravitational effect of a cloaked ship. I would imagine that even a ship using the phase cloak developed for the Pegasus would not escape detection. Even a ship like that would have to exert gravitational forces.


Adam

I know that they can use a tachyon grid to detect cloaked ships but I also remember an episode where a cloaked Romulan ship was leaking something and so was detected. Another obvious way to track cloaked ships, but is ignored, is to track their plasma trail from the impulse engines.

I am referencing the TNG technical manual, the only one I have and it has been pretty damn reliable as far as being consistent. I have heard that the DS9 Tech Manual has problems also but I have never been able to get my hands on one so I don't know. -Colt

[Comixx]

Well, speaking of Star Wars, check out this link (http://www.vampireuk.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/star.wmv)...pay close attention to the black background...

[Firefox]

I know that they can use a tachyon grid to detect cloaked ships but I also remember an episode where a cloaked Romulan ship was leaking something and so was detected. Another obvious way to track cloaked ships, but is ignored, is to track their plasma trail from the impulse engines.

That's true. Irregardless, even cloaked ships give off some form of emissions that will make it vulnerable to detection, be it from its propulsion system, or even internal power.

One analogue would be to that of submarines. Modern submarine designs involve insulating the interior bulkheads against the pressure hulls, to reduce residual noise. There are also subs that go around with cowlings over their propellers (Typhoon, Resolution, and Seawolf classes come to mind,) to mask them from sound detection. Despite that, there's always the risk that someone will inadvertently bang shut a hatch, or drop something on the deck.

To the point, there will always be some means to detect the ships, and as it's done in reality, both sides will work to avoid or create means of detection.

As for the tachyon grid, I wouldn't mind seeing it used more often, instead of being relegated to "one-shot wonder" status.



Adam

[Wingnut Ninja]

I like how they made the interior of the Bird of Prey in the movies look like a U-Boat, right down to the periscope. I was just waiting for them to start speaking with German accents. :D

[Stuart]

J Don't any of you have a Star Trek: TNG Technical Manual? If you are as fanatical about this stuff as I am (most of you seem to be..) then you need a copy. I will try to sum up the section on transporters which is about seven pages long. I'll mostly just give tidbits of information to help the discussion along.

Unfortunately neither the Encylopedia (and most especially the Technical manuals) are Canon. To quote the invaluable and erudite Michael Wong.


John Ordover, the senior editor of Paramount Novels, stated that "nothing is canon save what you see on-screen" and also that the technical manuals are only useful "to the extent that they accurately reflect what has been seen onscreen. All else is speculation". Moreover, Gene Roddenberry himself publicly dismissed all of the Star Trek novels and technical books as irrelevant when ST:TMP came out, and he never gave any indication that this policy would ever change.

So what does this mean? It means that if you go with Paramount's policy, "reality" is seen in the films and televised episodes. Anything else is either a description of canon events, an interpretation of canon events, or pure speculation. This is not surprising; if you look at the show and compare it to the TM (for example), there seem to be more inconsistencies than consistencies.

This means that the films and episodes are canon. The screenplays would be detailed descriptions of those canon episodes. The Encyclopedia would be an interpretation of those canon episodes. The Technical Manual would be speculation based on some of those canon episodes, and the novels have no relevance whatsoever, since they aren't part of the official continuity.

Descriptions of canon events such as the screenplays or a viewer's notes aren't always 100% accurate, but they're nevertheless the best source of information apart from actual MPEG captures and screenshots (which would be impractical to compile for the entire Star Trek canon). Interpretations such as the Encyclopedia or a fan's interpretations are only useful if the author goes to the bother of listing his sources and explaining his reasoning (which the author of the Encylopedia doesn't). Speculation is basically useless.

The problem with trying to work out "how" Startrek technology could function is that series continuity is so poor that whatever position one finds, its possible to get something else that contradicts it. I think that's why Paramount don't consider books as part of their Canon while Star Wars does (to a limited extent). I think the two- or three-stream data + energy (+ possibly activating) streams solution using local raw materials for the transformation givers the best overall fit. The key point is though that it is plausible and doesn't demand the transporter impose velocity components at the arrival point.

[Stuart]

Question: What did the Federation get in return for not developing cloaking technology? I know they mentioned it somewhere.

The Federation agreement not to develop cloaking technology is fascinating. Its the only example I can find of an assymetric arms limitation treaty. Normally, such treaties only exist by being imposed on a loser by the victor. This gives rise to an interesting possibility. That at some point in the recent past, the Federation was decisively defeated by the Romulans.

We know throughout TOS there was great and growing tension between the military and civilian components of the Federation. If, sometime shortly after the TOS era there was a Romulan-Federation war in which the Federation suffered serious reverses and had to accept a dictated (and extremely unfavorable) peace treaty, that may explain why the military in the Federation was discredited and neutered by the civilian government (it may also be that the other terms of the treaty put severe limitations on what the federation could do). Some evidence for this is the contemptuous tone of Romulan comments when they appear in TNG (we've had other things to worry about but we're back now" and their total disregard for Federation ground fighting capability -they send 2,000 ground troops to conquer Vulcan. 2,000 troops no matter how good isn't an invasion force, its an occupation force - it assumes there will be no effective opposition.

[Wingnut Ninja]

Ah, but thanks to Enterprise, we see that the [proto-]Federation was already a budding incompetencracy even before the war, so it's unlikely that it would only have devolved militarily solely as a result of a subsequent peace treaty. I was under the impression that they're just so enthralled by their own toys that they ignore even basic common sense, and only survive because of the repeated against-the-odds victories by heroes like Kirk and Picard (who, by my estimates, have personally killed 30% of the hostile aliens in the galaxy).

[Stuart]

Ah, but thanks to Enterprise, we see that the [proto-]Federation was already a budding incompetencracy even before the war, so it's unlikely that it would only have devolved militarily solely as a result of a subsequent peace treaty. I was under the impression that they're just so enthralled by their own toys that they ignore even basic common sense, and only survive because of the repeated against-the-odds victories by heroes like Kirk and Picard (who, by my estimates, have personally killed 30% of the hostile aliens in the galaxy).

Very good points. However, I get the sense that something very traumatic happened between TOS and TNG. I agree that may have been the culmination of a long-standing trend but I think something brought it to a head. That highly assymetic "treaty" is one symptom. Romulan contempt for the Federation is another indicator. There's another hint in the following excerpt


TNG Season 3, Ep# 68: "Tin Man"

WORF: Romulan warbird, closing. They're arming main distruptors, Captain.
PICARD: Go to Red Alert -- shields at maximum.
RIKER: Worf, arm photon torpedoes and stand by.
WORF: Aye, sir.
...
PICARD: Damage report.
WORF: No casualties reported. Seventy percent loss to main shields, sir.

The suggestion here is that Romulan warbirds dramatically outgun Federation starships. Here, a single volley took the Enterprise's shields down by 70%. Note also how Federation starships keep exploding in DS9 after relatively trivial damage (any modern warship designer who produced as centralized and vulnerable design as the Enterprise would be booted out of NAVSEA)

It seems that for all its posturing, the Federation is actually a weak and relatively ineffectual power. That suggests that its "alliance " with the Klingons isn't one of equals but a dominant-dependent one in which the Federation is the dependent. That, in turn, suggests the cause of tension in that alliance; its Klingon frustration with a junior partner that keeps behaving as if its the dominant member of the pair (rather like US frustration with France at this time).

[Wingnut Ninja]

I get the sense that something very traumatic happened between TOS and TNG.

I bet it had something to do with Planet X. :-?

[tjm220]

I get the sense that something very traumatic happened between TOS and TNG.

I bet it had something to do with Planet X. :-?

Planet Q? :D

[Glom]

any modern warship designer who produced as centralized and vulnerable design as the Enterprise would be booted out of NAVSEA

Be fair, antimatter is a tricky thing. Of course that's what the ejection system is for. :roll:

[Wingnut Ninja]

Yeah, it would be nice if, since they bothered to put in a warp core ejection system, they managed to make it work more than 10% of the time.

[dgruss23]

any modern warship designer who produced as centralized and vulnerable design as the Enterprise would be booted out of NAVSEA

Be fair, antimatter is a tricky thing. Of course that's what the ejection system is for. :roll:

Speaking of antimatter in ST, Commander Data has a positronic brain. Assuming they actually mean positrons (positive electrons) - how exactly do the trek tech specs address the issue of keeping his positronic head from exploding? What's the containment? What about all those times they need to open his head up to remove/insert chips?

[pmcolt]

Speaking of antimatter in ST, Commander Data has a positronic brain. Assuming they actually mean positrons (positive electrons) - how exactly do the trek tech specs address the issue of keeping his positronic head from exploding? What's the containment? What about all those times they need to open his head up to remove/insert chips?

I think the "positronic brain" thing was a reference to Asimov's robots. As for keeping him contained, seems like positrons could be guided by magnetic fields. Or maybe they're conducted through wires made of anti-copper, and there's a force-field surrounding his brain.

So, does Data have an emergency brain ejection system in case containment fails in his positronic brain?

[Colt]

Positronic (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?lastnode_id=495410&node_id=121731), if you can't find something through normal channels, check Everything2.com :)

Maybe we are reading too much into all of this, it is SF after all.

Stuart, where do you get those quotes from? What do you have, the entire series scripts? :o

I believe that the Federation is the most powerful group in the Alpha Quadrant. They use their technology to stay ahead. From what I have seen of the Romulans they seem to have very powerful ships but are fairly small in numbers. Look at the D'deridex cruisers, I think that there are only six of them but they are bigger than the E-D and are more powerful by brute force (these are the Romulans, think of how many weapons they probably have loaded on one ship compared to the Federation).

The Enterprise Nx-01 looks more like a submarine/spaceship than the plush carpeting and accomadations on the other ships. I like it.

I am pretty certain the Terran-Romulan nuclear war is canon. It is supposed to happen somewhere around 2155. Supposedly the Romulans didn't have warp technology at that time (they left Vulcan a long time ago). This meant that while they had numbers we had fast, advanced ships in small numbers. Here is the mention of the Terran-Romulan nuclear war I found in the Encyclopedia just now under Romulan Neutral Zone: "The Neutral Zone was established around 2160 after a conflict between Earth and the Romulans. That conflict had been fought with early space vessels using primitive atomic weapons." I am guessing that they just flew their ships up in a line facing each other and started lobbing high grade nuclear weapons at each other. This theory coming from later wars where they did the exact same thing except with new weapons.

I know that the Encyclopedia and Technical Manuals are not canon (would one being shown on air and referenced make it canon?) but they are the closest thing to printed reference material that we have. I believe in them most of the time because they were written by the same people (at least the Encyclopedia and TNG manual) who write stuff for the shows.

Anyway, I don't feel good. -Colt

[Glom]

It was established that there was an Earth-Romulan conflict in the 22nd century from the dialogue in 'Balance of Terror' [TOS].

[Firefox]

I believe that the Federation is the most powerful group in the Alpha Quadrant. They use their technology to stay ahead.

The Breen seemed to have been able to make short work of Federation ships. The only vessels that were apparently invulnerable to the Breen's energy-draining weapons were Klingon ships (something to do with tritium, or other technobabble.) I'd say the Federation, while possessing aesthetically-appealing ships and weapons, is on par with other powers in the quadrant.


From what I have seen of the Romulans they seem to have very powerful ships but are fairly small in numbers. Look at the D'deridex cruisers, I think that there are only six of them

There were quite a few of them in "The Die is Cast," as well as later episodes in the Dominion War, when the Romulans formed an alliance with the Federation.


but they are bigger than the E-D and are more powerful by brute force (these are the Romulans, think of how many weapons they probably have loaded on one ship compared to the Federation).

As far as I can tell, the only real disadvantage D'deridex-class vessels have is that they cannot sustain as high a warp speed as the Galaxy-class starships, but they make up for it in size and firepower. That statistic was also made early in the TNG series, so it's possible the Romulans may have made advances in speed and weaponry since then.


I believe in them most of the time because they were written by the same people (at least the Encyclopedia and TNG manual) who write stuff for the shows.

While written by the same people, you have to accept what Paramount said, as far as determining what is canon, and what is not. As Stuart pointed out, you can only use the encyclopedia as a reference to the series, and the tech manuals are apocryphal, at best. While it's consistent in itself, that falls apart when it's compared to the canon.


Adam

[EDIT]Last statement

[daver]

It was established that there was an Earth-Romulan conflict in the 22nd century from the dialogue in 'Balance of Terror' [TOS].
At the time, neither had warp engines. After the war, Earth developed warp engines, and the Romulans developed the cloaking device and the plasma torpedo. Apparently the war was very nasty--no Romulan bodies were recovered intact enough to realize the resemblence between Romulans and Vulcans.

A sublight war implies that Romulus must be within a dozen light years or so of Earth, unless the early Federation had some sort of superlight drive that was so clunky/dangerous that it was dropped like a hot potato (well, maybe more forcefully--more like an atomic grenade) when warp engines were developed (possibly like some of Heinlein's star drives, where you have to accelerate to some high fraction of the speed of light before you can engage the drive, or possibly like Pournelle's Alderson drive, except if you miss the Alderson point and apply the drive field you explode).

[Wingnut Ninja]

So the Earth/Romulan war happened before warp drive? Looks like we've already missed it with Enterprise, then.

[Firefox]

At the time, neither had warp engines.

From what I've gathered, the Federation had warp drive at the time of the war. The Romulans did not. I suppose in that way Enterprise doesn't ruin the continuity.

Of course, it certainly does in other areas. I still can't believe how much larger NX-01 is compared to what's supposed to be the later Daedalus-class.


Adam

[pmcolt]

Except Earth has had warp drive since 2061, when an alcoholic living in Montana launched the first warp ship atop a modified ICBM. The Vulcans were rather interested in this. And (should spoiler space be added here?) Archer & crew bumped into a Romulan minefield and ships and had no idea who they were.

I don't see how the war could've been conducted if both sides didn't have warp drive. If both sides were limited to sublight, the war would've taken decades, and if only one side had warp drive, that would seem to be a significant technological advantage.

[Mark Skarr]

I don't see how the war could've been conducted if both sides didn't have warp drive. If both sides were limited to sublight, the war would've taken decades, and if only one side had warp drive, that would seem to be a significant technological advantage.

Exactly. WWII pilots talk about how devistating the ME-262 was when it was airborne. Imagine being able to shoot at your target then jump to warp 1! By the time their computers had detected you, you would be somewhere else.

Now . . . the counterpoint to this could be that's why the Romulans developed the cloaking device. If we can't see them coming, we can't interdict their movements.
Again, sub-point, how could you have a Romulan Space Empire without warp travel? And since the Romulans are supposedly off-shots of Vulcans . . . where did their Warp Travel go?
UNGH! Brain hurts. Trying to make sense. . .

[David Hall]

The way I saw it explained in a ST book once was that the Romulans had warp travel, but only in the form of a small number of large carrier ships that were kept safely "behind the lines" as it were. The smaller tactical craft that the federation actually encountered were limited to sublight speeds.

[Mark Skarr]

Oh, okay. Well, that makes sense. On the other hand, it could just be retcon covering up for earlier lack of logic. Either way, the Federation would have a massive technological edge. They could disable the carrier ships in insterstellar space and the "fighters" would be stranded. Seems like a REALLY bad way to wage a war.

[Glom]

A quick note since the Phoenix was brought up. I believe I read somewhere that the Titan II rocket was the ICBM in question. If you watch First Contact, you'll see people wandering around right near the roof of the silo as the rocket launches. The problem is that the Titan II uses hypergolic propellants which are toxic.

[daver]

[Now . . . the counterpoint to this could be that's why the Romulans developed the cloaking device. If we can't see them coming, we can't interdict their movements.

The first Romulan war was fought to a standstill--a peace treaty was arranged and a neutral zone set up without either side coming into contact. Probably before the era of universal translators. The war being fought to a standstill seems to imply that no side had a technological edge. If the Earth forces had a warp drive i don't see how this could happen. Remember that the Romulans didn't have a cloak or the plasma torpedo at this time. I suppose they could have developed disrupters while the Earth forces relied on atomic missiles, but that doesn't seem all that likely.


Again, sub-point, how could you have a Romulan Space Empire without warp travel? And since the Romulans are supposedly off-shots of Vulcans . . . where did their Warp Travel go?
UNGH! Brain hurts. Trying to make sense. . .

You can't make it make sense. Romulus has to be close to Vulcan. Romulus has to be close to earth. I don't know if Earth had made contact with the Vulcans at the time of the Romulan war--if they did, the Vulcans must have suspected who the Romulans were, but didn't want to disclose that.

Anyway, there's some sort of intellectual satsifaction to be gotten by trying to shoehorn some consistency into Star Trek. It can't be done cleanly; the challenge i suppose is to see how few changes have to be made.

And one of the necessary changes seems to be that there were pre-warp methods of travelling faster than light. Even the Enterprise, with its warp engines disabled, seems to be able to travel FTL, just not very FTL (the second pilot implied that the Enterprise could reach an inhabited system in months or years after its warp engines were disabled).

[pmcolt]

Since humans discovered warp travel in 2061 and the Federation was founded in 2161, the war must've occurred sometime between those dates. Earth seems to have only a minimal deep space fleet in NX-01's time period.

Perhaps the Romulans have a significant sublight fleet operating in their solar system and a few neighboring systems. In this case, perhaps the war stalemated for the following reasons:

The Romulans couldn't launch any strikes on Earth targets more than a few light-years away, but could wipe out any Earth ships entering their space. Earth could reach any Romulan system, but couldn't muster enough of a fleet to destroy the Romulan coast guard.

Earth mistakenly believed that the Romulans had faster ships and might strike deep into Earth space at any time. The Romulans mistakenly believed that if the war didn't end soon, Earth would launch a massive fleet to wipe out the Romulans.

They both come to the bargaining table when they realize that those sneaky Vulcans started the war, hoping to wipe out that imputent Vulcan offshoot race and those upstart Humans in one fell swoop.

[Mark Skarr]

You can't make it make sense. Romulus has to be close to Vulcan. Romulus has to be close to earth. I don't know if Earth had made contact with the Vulcans at the time of the Romulan war--if they did, the Vulcans must have suspected who the Romulans were, but didn't want to disclose that.

Well, since the Vulcans were the first race humans made contact with. . .. But that's just splitting hairs. I'm sure you know that. But, according to Enterprise the Vulcans are very secretive, so them not telling us about their dirty laundry wouldn't be a big surprise.

[Colt]

The Enterprise episode "Minefield" proves that the war has not happened yet (why I have the date of about 2155). IIRC in that episode the mines had an early form of cloaking technology on them which could be detected in one way or the other, just not visually (I've only seen the episode once). The episode also keeps along the timeline of not seeing the Romulans face-to-face (they used only radio, no visual in the show).

The point of not being able to recover any bodies during the Terran-Romulan war supports the idea of nuclear weapons, when you vaporize their ship you can't exactly determine what they looked like. An idea to this is that the Terran ships nuked the dead ship as a matter of course because you wouldn't want to start turning your ship away and have a nuke fired at you. That or the Romulans self-destruct when they know the battle is lost ("Ramming speed!").

I also remember hearing something about the Romulans using slow carrier ships to carry around their early Birds of Prey which had no warp engines. I am guessing that the Romulans would have their carriers very heavily armed so as to fend off attackers until it could drop smaller ships. I made the statement earlier that the Romulans must have left Vulcan (presumably after their war between emotion and logic) in sub-light ships long ago. In that way they have evolved some and their language has changed so much that the translator had problems with it.

http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/schematics/prefed_ships.htm (scroll down to the Phoenix) makes the point that the Titan II could not possibly have lifted the Phoenix so they made up a more advanced one.

-Colt

[Mark Skarr]

I also remember hearing something about the Romulans using slow carrier ships to carry around their early Birds of Prey which had no warp engines. I am guessing that the Romulans would have their carriers very heavily armed so as to fend off attackers until it could drop smaller ships.

If the war was fought with nuclear missiles anything heavily armored enough to surivive a nuclear strike would be far, FAR more deadly than anything it could carry. I think we're trying to put too much into what Gene Roddenberry probably didn't think too much about. If they were just using Kenetic Kill missiles then you could (in theory) have enough armor to stop a hit. But, then you'd be REALLY heavy and not likely be able to dodge a nuclear missile. But, if you really wanted to mess with your foe, you could turn your nukes into blast-pumped x-ray lasers and then when they start to dodge BANG-ZAPP!

Okay, I'm thinking about this way too much.

[pmcolt]

My personal theory is that Archer starts the Earth-Romulan war. The time period's about right, and Enterprise is in the general vicinity. Plus Archer has already ticked off the Klingons, Vulcans, and a handful of other alien races. I wrote up a humorous script about Archer's first encounter with the Romulans, but "Minefield" pretty much invalidated it. Not that I expect the writers to follow my personal view of the ST universe.

Heavy armor may not be a factor againts nuclear missiles in the ST universe. In "Balance of Terror," Enterprise (barely) survived a nuclear blast with whatever armor it had (I believe its shields were down). In the Enterprise time period, NX-01 seems to be fast and maneuverable, but its torpedoes seem to travel rather slowly. During the war, survival may simply depend on whether your ship is fast enough, and your navigator good enough, to dodge whatever the enemy fires at you.

[Glom]

Archer is so self-centred and arrogant that he'll probably take the liberty of declaring war because a Romulan complained about Porthos making a mess on one of their planets while Archer was wasting ship's resources to take a pompous stroll.

[Wingnut Ninja]

I bet Archer then proceeds to kill of most of the Romulans in existence as well...

Also, how can anything in the Star Trek universe describe atomic weapons as "primitive"? Atomic weapons are more powerful than any other (standard) weapon even in the 24th century. I mean, you don't call a lunar rover "primitive" just because it uses a millenia-old technology (wheels). Photon torpedoes, depending on the target, do anything from singeing the hull to blowing up the entire ship. A hydrogen bomb would take out an entire fleet (judging from the distances between most ships). Not only that, it could probably do it before they even noticed; warp in an unmanned missile, detonate, rinse and repeat.

[dgruss23]

wingnut ninja wrote: A hydrogen bomb would take out an entire fleet (judging from the distances between most ships). Not only that, it could probably do it before they even noticed; warp in an unmanned missile, detonate, rinse and repeat.

Would it? People too close to a hydrogen bomb are killed by the high energy radiation and the general mahem it causes on buildings ect. In space you would still have the high energy radiation, but would there be shock waves capable of ripping a ship apart? After all, there's no air to carry a compressional force or burn things via combustion.

If I'm right about this I suppose it might make an ideal weapon - destroys the crew (with the radiation) but leaves the ships intact to be taken over.

[Wingnut Ninja]

Now that I think about it, I'm not sure exactly how it would do its damage. I remember Rendezvous with Rama (or was it one of the sequels?) dealt with the effects of a nuke in space. It seems that even though there is no air for it to make a shockwave with, the consensus was that it could still do some pretty nasty damage to the Ramamobile. I mean, that energy has to go somewhere, right?

Radiation would probably be stopped by shields, but I don't know how much "polarized hull plating" would do.

[pmcolt]

The three main effects of nuclear weapons are radiation, blast, and thermal effects. In space, radiation probably wouldn't be affected too much, but the blast effects would probably disappear since there's no medium to carry a shockwave.

I googled for "effects of nuclear weapons in space," and the first page that seemed relevant was here (http://www.hq.nasa.gov/office/pao/History/conghand/nuclear.htm). It seems to say that the effects of nuclear radiation would increase due to the lack of atmosphere, while thermal and blast damage would both disappear.

Not having read Rendezvous with Rama, I'll have to add it to my increasingly long list of things to read.

{edit: removed extra closing tag}

[Pinemarten]

Try and bump Rama to higher on your list, you will not regret it. The same for Ringworld, if it there as well.

[Colt]

*cheers for Ringworld and Rama* Though the last few books (haven't read them in a while) of the Rama series were kind of odd.

There are actually nukes made to put out a gigantic burst of radiation, Neutron Bombs (http://www.everything2.com/index.pl?lastnode_id=1136844&node_id=69770). These would be ideal for use in space as proximity weapons (meaning you just have to detonate them near the target, not touching it). And if it did touch the ship even the size of a small neutron bomb would vaporize the ship. Another concept not mentioned on Everything2 (It lies!) is that a Neutron Bomb would kill off all of the people and stop defensive systems in their tracks while leaving documents and equipment ready for retrieval by friendly forces. :wink: -Colt

[Pinemarten]

And let us not forget why neutron bombs were banned. The radiation goes away fast; to the point that within a month or two, we can walk in and take their stuff.

[g99]

In Illegal Alien. One weapon that is used is a mono-filament wire. the user just welds it and clotheslines' a person. Bang, thew guy is instantly headless.

Imagine this as a net stetched between two ships. Yikes!

[Avatar28]

I guess I'm a bit late to mention it but in regards to the transporters, my understanding from reading the technical manuals and what I've seen on the series, etc is basically that the transporter scans the person to the be transported down to the subatomic level, converts their mass to energy, sends it down the transporter beam, then reconstructs it at the other end. I believe that seems to be made pretty clear, at least to me.

Secondly, there are two different types of transporters, personnel and cargo. The personnel transporters are used for people and sensitive cargo. They have a much higher resolution. Cargo transporters only scan down to either the molecular or atomic level (I forget which, but I think it's molecular) and thus uses less power.

According to the tech manual, replicators work exactly like transporters. Basically, they have a stock of biomass that is transported from the cargo hold and then instead of being reconstructed in it's original form, it's reconstructed using a stored pattern. Replicator patterns are also only precise to the molecular level, which is why some people think the food isn't quite as good as the real thing.

Also, we know that the navigation shields are capable of stopping kinetic impacts. Think about it. What happens when you hit a bit of dust while you're doing, oh, .5c. Assuming that it weighs .01 grams (which is probably a bit heavy, but whatever) that's something like 2.25 million joules of energy. Quite a wallop. Now, if you're at impulse there's a good chance you're in a star system of some sort, so there's a reasonable chance of hitting something much heavier. Say a kg or so (for easy math). So that would be 22.5 BILLION joules of energy. Without a good shielding of some sort, that could make for a REALLY bad day.

[daver]

The Romulans couldn't launch any strikes on Earth targets more than a few light-years away, but could wipe out any Earth ships entering their space. Earth could reach any Romulan system, but couldn't muster enough of a fleet to destroy the Romulan coast guard.


Battle tactics should make it obvious whether or not the Romulans have FTL.

Ten earth ships fly into romulan space, surround a lone romulan ship and blast it into oblivion before help can arrive. Repeat until there are no more lone Romulan ships. Space is big, light is slow. The earth forces should be able to bottle the Romulan forces up into an area maybe a light hour across.

Maybe the Romulans can accelerate at thousands of g's. The Romulan ships win any fight they're in, until they run out of fuel and missiles. Earth forces can dodge in, fire, go back to base to replenish. So again, the Romulans are confined to a single system.

I don't believe the Earth forces would be satisfied with confining the Romulans to a single system--it's only going to be a matter of time before the Romulans discover FTL, and then they'll be a real menace. On the other hand, Earth is probably a democracy, and might jump at a chance for peace, regardless of how stupid it would be in the long run.

[captain swoop]

I get the sense that something very traumatic happened between TOS and TNG.

It seems that for all its posturing, the Federation is actually a weak and relatively ineffectual power. That suggests that its "alliance " with the Klingons isn't one of equals but a dominant-dependent one in which the Federation is the dependent. That, in turn, suggests the cause of tension in that alliance; its Klingon frustration with a junior partner that keeps behaving as if its the dominant member of the pair (rather like US frustration with France at this time).


It's all just plot devices to put the Enterprise or whatever in a situation that needs negotiation and diplomacy to overcome. Remember one of the key Bridge crew on TNG Enterprise is the ships Counselor!!

IF Enterprise had big guns and could blast its way out of any situation there would be no opportunity to reconfigure everything to produce a new wave or partical. Also don't forget Picard has to talk sense into all the warring parties and settle everything without violence.

As for the lack of cloaking I think the 'treaty' was an 'ad-hoc' invention to allow for the plot.

[Stuart]

Be fair, antimatter is a tricky thing. Of course that's what the ejection system is for. :roll:

Its not just the anti-matter system; its the whole design philosophy. The combat system designs I've worked on have been designed so they fail gracefully - that is as the system gets damaged it reroutes itself and reconfigures itself so as to keep basic functions going regardless. We can do this two ways. one is to link the related systems into a LAN for fast reaction and then link the LANs at the appropriate nodes. That's called a Federated system and works pretty well. The other is a distributed system in which all the various systems are linked to all other systems via a databus net. That's called a Distributed System. Its very hard to destroy but is a voracious consumer of computer power and can be hard to get working right. Federated systems are usually about two years late and 50 percent over budget; Distributed Systems up to five years late and usually about 300 percent over budget. If either system is hurt and a hole blon in it, the routing software keeps hunting for a way around the hole until it finds one.

Repeatedly on all series, relatively minor damage (not causing visible hull ruptures) takes the whole ship down. That smacks of the old-fashioned centralized system in which a single massive computer runs everything. We did it that way in the 1950s but gave it up by the mid-1970s.

[Stuart]

I believe that the Federation is the most powerful group in the Alpha Quadrant. They use their technology to stay ahead. From what I have seen of the Romulans they seem to have very powerful ships but are fairly small in numbers. Look at the D'deridex cruisers, I think that there are only six of them but they are bigger than the E-D and are more powerful by brute force (these are the Romulans, think of how many weapons they probably have loaded on one ship compared to the Federation).

Powerful? Lets look at some evidence.


TNG Season 1, Ep# 15: "Angel One"

DATA: The border outpost reports a contingent of seven Romulan battlecruisers within sensor range. The USS Berlin has answered their distress call, and is standing by. However, should hostilities erupt, the outpost and the starship will be outgunned. It is felt that the Enterprise's
presence in the area will be a vital show of force.
TASHA: Some show of force. The Enterprise may be able to fly on autopilot. But with that virus knocking down our crew, we're going to be in sorry shape if things turn ugly.

Lets think about this. Seven Romulan battlecruisers are converging on a Federation border outpost, and the Federation can only respond with one starship, possibly two? In a critical sector like the Romulan Neutral Zone? OK, the Romulans have the initiative but there's something seriously wrong here. Is this an isolated incident? Lets see.


NG Season 7, Ep# 177: "All Good Things"
NAKAMURA: I'm initiating afleetwide Yellow Alert. Starfleet intelligence has picked up some disturbing reports from the Romulan Empire. It appears that at least thirty Warbirds have been pulled from other assignments and are heading for the Neutral Zone.
PICARD: Is there any indication why they would make such a blatantly aggressive move?
NAKAMURA: Our operatives on Romulus have indicated that there appears to be something happening in the Neutral Zone -- specifically, in the Devron System. Our own long range scans have picked up some kind of spatial anomaly in the area, but we can't tell what it is.
PICARD: What are our orders?
NAKAMURA: This is a delicate situation. I'm deploying fifteen starships along our side of the Neutral Zone. I want you to go there as well -- see if you can find out what's going on in the Devron System.

This is stunning. The entire Federation is put on high alert because of the movement of just thirty Romulan warbirds. The Federation military response is just fifteen ships (which means they're heavily outgunned, allowing for the fact that Romulan warbirds dramatically outgun Federation ships). Probably won't matter much given Picard's famous battle tactic of "Ill give you to a count of three. One, two, two and a half, OK I surrender"
No matter where we look, the signs of Federation military weakness and incompetence are everywhere. Its no wonder the Klingons (arguably the real dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant) are fed up with Federation pretensions.

[Avatar28]

This is stunning. The entire Federation is put on high alert because of the movement of just thirty Romulan warbirds. The Federation military response is just fifteen ships (which means they're heavily outgunned, allowing for the fact that Romulan warbirds dramatically outgun Federation ships). Probably won't matter much given Picard's famous battle tactic of "Ill give you to a count of three. One, two, two and a half, OK I surrender"
No matter where we look, the signs of Federation military weakness and incompetence are everywhere. Its no wonder the Klingons (arguably the real dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant) are fed up with Federation pretensions.

That or perhaps the Federation was confident that their 15 ships were a match for the 30 warbirds.

[Stuart]

That or perhaps the Federation was confident that their 15 ships were a match for the 30 warbirds.
There's an old military expression; don't tap it, thump it. In short, when planning military operations, one doesn't commit just barely adequate forces, one goes for the highest possible level of overkillthat can be organized. Now, we know that Romulan BoP outgun Federation starships handily (again, look at the earlier quote - one volley from a BoP takes the E-D shields down by 70 percent. Interestingly, we have the following.


TNG Season 4, Ep# 100: "Redemption Part 1"
PICARD: The Bortas should have twice the firepower of a Bird of Prey.
RIKER: Her weapons systems were hit pretty hard... they haven't brought them back on-line yet.
Since we know a BoP can take down 70 percent of E-Ds shields witha volley and Picard says the firepower of a Klingon heavy cruiser is roughly twice that of a Bird of Prey its reasonable to assume that a Klingon heavy cruiser can take out the E-D with a single salvo.

Putting evidence together, it appears that the Romulan ships are short-ranged but heavily armed. That tends to suggest that their campaigns would be island hopping in the good, old-fashioned sense. Seizing operational bases and then exploiting them for a forward push.

It appears that the pre Dominion war pecking order in the Alpha Quadrant is Klingon > Romulan > Federation > Cardassia > Ferenghi. Even the status of Federation vs Cardassia is questionable since it appears the Cardassians at leats managed to fight the Federation to a standstill.

[pmcolt]

No matter where we look, the signs of Federation military weakness and incompetence are everywhere. Its no wonder the Klingons (arguably the real dominant power in the Alpha Quadrant) are fed up with Federation pretensions.

The impression I've gotten is that Federation military strategy seems to rely on holding off the enemy long enough to bring its industrial might to bear. They're completely unprepared for out-of-the blue attacks.

During the first Borg incursion, Enterprise was initially the only starship within range. Even with several days' notice, Starfleet was only able to gather 39 starships, and this is less than 10ly from Earth. In other situations, Enterprise is often the only starship available.

During DS9, we saw a brief war with the Klingons, but I only have fuzzy memories of it. However, when the first Dominion threat appeared, Starfleet assigned Defiant to DS9. One starship. When they launched a rescue mission into Dominion space, potentially hostile territory, they sent in a massive fleet of... USS Odyssey. Which didn't last too long.

Despite this, by the time the Dominion war gets into full swing, we see large fleets composed of old Miranda and Excelsior-class starships, Galaxy, Defiant, and Akira-class ships.

If they can hold off an initial invasion, Starfleet seems to have enough time to inform their captains to "stop boldly going and get back here!" And probably to pull a bunch of old ships out of retirement, call up the reserves, and start rushing ships out of the construction yards. The longer they can hold out, the bigger the fleet they can prepare.

Given that the Federation is supposed to span some big number of light-years, and their most threatening neighbors have become allies (Klingons), turned isolationist (Romulans), or just plain don't matter (Cardassians), Starfleet Command probably was just becoming complacent pre-Dominion war.

[ToSeek]

Enterprise was initially the only starship within range.

Sounds like a good start to a Star Trek drinking game. :D

[Glom]

The fifth season was the DS9's best, where it produced some of its most outstanding episodes, but the military tactics weren't significantly greater.

In 'Nor the Battle to the Strong', the USS Farragut was alone sent to engge Klingon forces at Ajilon Prime. Surprise, surprise, it was destroyed and so Sisko had to order the Defiant 8) to be taken there. Sisko was a bit cavalier with his ship as well. The difference between Sisko and Archer, is that the Defiant 8) is Sisko's own private tool that he uses for what missions he chooses, while Enterprise is Archer's play thing.

It was great at the end of the season to see huge task forces, the way it should be. Nothing beats that shot of the Defiant 8) and the Rotarran flying into that huge Federation/Klingon task force for season closers. :D

[dgruss23]

pmcolt wrote: The impression I've gotten is that Federation military strategy seems to rely on holding off the enemy long enough to bring its industrial might to bear. They're completely unprepared for out-of-the blue attacks.


Sound like the exact opposite strategy of the Empire - which builds a monstrous fleet of gigantic warships and superweapons to deal with miniscule threats from basically a bunch of terrified starsystems that dare not step out of line.

[Avatar28]

I think Colt's right. The Fed IS the largest force in the quadrant. The other empires are for the most part just made up of one race, not dozens as the others are. The Federation's power is more in the industrial/economic realm, as well as in it's wealth of cultures and peoples, more than military. Think of the United States in WWII. We didn't have an overly powerful military at the beginning, but once the industrial machine got rolling, the US became a mighty force. The Federation is probably the same way.

Given time to get rolling (along with some remedial training in tactics and weapons design), I think the Federation would be pretty much unstoppable. Perhaps that's one of the reasons the Klingons DO tolerate the alliance. Because they know that in the event of a war, they provide the initial military support while the Federation juggernaut builds up it's power, then they both kick serious butt together with the Fed providing a lot of the power the Klingons providing the tactical direction. Of course, I STILL think they would get slaughtered by modern military for the most part.

You know, with all this time travel they seem to be able to do, why don't they just zap back to the 20th century, grab a few good military commanders, and hop back to the 24th century with them. Let THEM run the military. I guarantee you that the next time the borg showed up the Federation would be ready and waiting to mop the floor with them.

[daver]

OK. The Federation is a pacifist democracy. Despite evidence to the contrary, the basic belief is that if we don't threaten them, they won't attack us (the citizenry believe that all other alien races are also pacifistic). So the response to an invasion is to stall for time until Starship-sized replicators are built and the enemy can be swamped. Upon victory, anyone who has shown any sign of military competence is demoted or sent to a mental institution to redirect their anti-social tendencies. Military vessels are converted to cargo ships or frying pans, and holodecks installed on any remaining vessels to monitor any aggressive fantasies.

[Jocke]

Enterprise was initially the only starship within range.

Sounds like a good start to a Star Trek drinking game. :D

I could have sworn I saw a Star Trek drinking game somewhere, but I don't know where...
Although I did find a list of "50 things that will never happen on Star Trek (http://www.skrattnet.se/filmtv/star_trek_50_inte_star_trek.asp)".
Joke's on you though, it's in Swedish... :wink:

[edit]Gee, that was hard to find... *cough*Google (http://www.google.com/search?q=Star+Trek+drinking+game&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=sv&lr=)*cough*

[Wingnut Ninja]

That or perhaps the Federation was confident that their 15 ships were a match for the 30 warbirds.

That was my impression. They don't say how powerful each warbird is; they may be smaller models that won't hold up one-to-one.

[Colt]

I think Colt's right. The Fed IS the largest force in the quadrant. The other empires are for the most part just made up of one race, not dozens as the others are. The Federation's power is more in the industrial/economic realm, as well as in it's wealth of cultures and peoples, more than military. Think of the United States in WWII. We didn't have an overly powerful military at the beginning, but once the industrial machine got rolling, the US became a mighty force. The Federation is probably the same way.

Given time to get rolling (along with some remedial training in tactics and weapons design), I think the Federation would be pretty much unstoppable. Perhaps that's one of the reasons the Klingons DO tolerate the alliance. Because they know that in the event of a war, they provide the initial military support while the Federation juggernaut builds up it's power, then they both kick serious butt together with the Fed providing a lot of the power the Klingons providing the tactical direction. Of course, I STILL think they would get slaughtered by modern military for the most part.

You know, with all this time travel they seem to be able to do, why don't they just zap back to the 20th century, grab a few good military commanders, and hop back to the 24th century with them. Let THEM run the military. I guarantee you that the next time the borg showed up the Federation would be ready and waiting to mop the floor with them.

This is the impression that I have always gotten from Star Trek, that it is a mirror of the world when the show was created. Here (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=3839&start=25) is a thread in which I give a list of what the ST races corresponded to in the world. And regardless of anything which I said in that thread, the Federation acts alot like the USA, it is an American show afterall. -Colt

[Colt]

I forgot to add this.

*does this from memory* There are two types of Bird of Prey which the Romulans have. There is the smaller one which theys hare with the Klingons and holds about 15 people and then there are the larger versions as seen in TNG. My speculation to this is that they went by the motto of "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." so they just enlarged the design, alot. -Colt

[snowcelt]

[quote="Avatar28"]I think Colt's right. The Fed IS the largest force in the quadrant. The other empires are for the most part just made up of one race, not dozens as the others are. The Federation's power is more in the industrial/economic realm, as well as in it's wealth of cultures and peoples, more than military. Think of the United States in WWII. We didn't have an overly powerful military at the beginning, but once the industrial machine got rolling, the US became a mighty force. The Federation is probably the same way.

It has been my impression that in this era of warfare (late 20th/early 21st cent.) that if you are going to go to war you better have what you need at the on set because wars are short and fast and a nation would not have time to bring on new replacements because the war would be over? This makes me think that in future warfare, the time to replace lost gear would be even more unlikely.

[g99]

See what really got me is the way they stock their ship with specialists. There is no redundancy or replacements available if one is killed.

There is one doctor with a few assistants. (and the EMH does not count for Enterprise)

One compitent engineer (altought this can be filled by the science officer once in a while)

One science officer

one lead security official who is alos the sole Weapons specialist.

[frenat]

See what really got me is the way they stock their ship with specialists. There is no redundancy or replacements available if one is killed.


well that's just because they are too cheap to hire hundreds of actors :wink:

[captain swoop]

See what really got me is the way they stock their ship with specialists. There is no redundancy or replacements available if one is killed.

There is one doctor with a few assistants. (and the EMH does not count for Enterprise)

One compitent engineer (altought this can be filled by the science officer once in a while)

One science officer

one lead security official who is alos the sole Weapons specialist.

Not strictly true, we see the chief engineer, chief science officer etc. It's called Cast Economy, too many faces are hard to keep track of and lots of regular speaking parts cost a lot of money. Graduates from the Academy seem to have an in depth knowledge of most specialities apart from medical.

[captain swoop]

Remember the Federation is about exploration and discovery not military conquest. TOS was set in a hostile Cold War world, TNG is set after the fall of Communism, I think it reflected this.

NATO won the cold war without having to go to war, diplomacy, treaty and economic strength.

[Stuart]

I think Colt's right. The Fed IS the largest force in the quadrant. The other empires are for the most part just made up of one race, not dozens as the others are.
I don't think this is correct. In fact, given the surrounding circumstances I don't think it can possibly be. That would assume that the Klingons and Romulans during their travels never encountered another intelligent species and the Federation has a monopoly of such contacts. However, there's another aspect to the subject. If we look at any Starfleet ship, they are crewed by humans almost exclusively. The number of non-humans (even including non-humans who look human such as betazoids) who are part of a crew is so small its an almost-vanishing percentage. To all intents and purposes Starship crews are humans and humans only. We are only aware of the small percentage of non-humans on the ships because we see the ship in-depth on a regular basis. We don't see Klingon or Romulan ships the same way. Our contact with them is passing and almost invariably restricted to a bridge crew. If we had a series set on a Klingon ship where contact with Starfleet ships is equally restricted, we'd probably have the impression that the Federation was purely human.


The Federation's power is more in the industrial/economic realm, as well as in it's wealth of cultures and peoples, more than military. Think of the United States in WWII. We didn't have an overly powerful military at the beginning, but once the industrial machine got rolling, the US became a mighty force. The Federation is probably the same way.

Firstly I'd dispute the basic assumption; the economic and industrial strength of the Federation. The Federation is a communist state run by a highly-centralized bureaucracy. To all intents and purposes, there is no private enterprise, no private transportation and movement is severely restricted. These are not the attributes of a strong industry and economy. The comparison with the US in WW2 falls at that point. US economic power is based around mobilizing the tremendous strength of its private sector. In the Federation, there is no private sector to harness.


Daver - OK. The Federation is a pacifist democracy.
There's no evidence the Federation is any sort of democracy (pacifist or otherwise). There's a lot of evidence that economically its communist and politically its a military dictatorship. This puts an interesting light on the irrational hatred of the Ferenghi by the way.

Take a look at the following quotation.


TNG Season 6, Ep# 129: "Man of the People"
ALKAR: I am grateful for the Federation's offer to escort me, but if I arrive at Rekag-Seronia on the Enterprise, the armed Flagship of Starfleet, my mission as a Peace negotiator will be compromised. There must be a Federation transport ship in the area that could take me there.

ADMIRAL: However, we also recognize that safety is an issue -- not just yours, but the crew that escorts you. To send you on an unarmed transport puts everyone at risk. I think it's best if you proceed to Rekag-Seronia aboard the Enterprise.

This is immensely significant to understanding the economic and political background to the Federation. The only two alternatives available to Ambassador Alkar are a "Federation transport ship" and a Starfleet warship. In other words, he has two forms of government-owned transportation to choose from. The option of a privately owned vessel is never discussed, even though that is the ideal solution to this particular problem. The obvious explanation to this is that private transportation (and private communications) do not exist in the Federation. Total state control of transport and communications is a defining feature of both marxist states and of dictatorships. The dicatorial powers of Starfleet are shown here.


TNG Season 7, Ep# 156: "Gambit Part 1"
SANDERS: Commander, no one is allowed on the surface without prior authorization from the Federation Science Council.

So, a military organization is the governing authority for a centralized government-run science council which can deny access to certain planets which it deems scientifically valuable? Can anybody say Soviet Academy of Science

This impression is reinforced by:


TNG Season 7, Ep# 161: "Force of Nature"
SEROVA: Our planet is already being affected. We have measured large gravitational shifts throughout our system.
RABAL: If something isn't done, our planet will become uninhabitable.
GEORDI: Captain, I've heard this theory before. Their research was evaluated by the Federation Science Council a few years ago. Their claims just didn't hold up.
This is a classic example of why socialist bureaucracies eventually fail. In a more open and independent research environment, some researchers would have probably looked into the situation further, perhaps finding ways to experimentally test and verify these claims. In this case, a single governing body announces that it's not worth looking into, and all scientific inquiry ceases. Later in the same episode, Data makes reference to placing a request with the Federation Science Council for research efforts. Again, there seems to be no other source of scientific research funding but the government-run Federation Science Council; a stifling environment in which to conduct research.


Despite evidence to the contrary, the basic belief is that if we don't threaten them, they won't attack us (the citizenry believe that all other alien races are also pacifistic).

Actually, the Federation is not pacifist at all; its militarily aggressive but incompetent. Take the following example.


TNG Season 7, Ep# 176: "Pre-emptive Strike"
NECHAYEV: Evek manages to make the Cardassians sound like helpless sheep being preyed on by Federation wolves. The truth is, we caught the Cardassian government supplying its colonies in the Demilitarized Zone with weapons.
PICARD: Gul Evek assures me that practice has stopped.
NECHAYEV: Ah. How comforting. he Maquis are moving beyond self-defense. Their ranks are growing... they've acquired ships, weapons. they seem to be preparing for a more aggressive military posture. We have to put a stop to them, before the entire Demilitarized Zone ignites.

There are several interesting things about this. One is that even after discovering Cardassian interference in the DMZ, Captain Picard and Admiral Nechayev both agree to crack down on their own side in this little skirmish, rather than levelling the playing field by playing tit for tat with the Cardassians. yet, they're quite happy to drop the boom on the colonies in the DMZ - even though they have withdarwn Federation membership and protection from those colonies. There is only one explanation for this readiness to shoot up colonists and refrain from confronting Cardassians - the Cardassians can shoot back. This leads to another observation - this spineless behaviour must be based on pure fear. The Federation must be so afraid of a possible escalation with Cardassia that they'll do anything to prevent it. They'll even attack and imprison their own people. Since individual Federation ships appear to outclass Cardassian warships, the Cardassians must have a military advantage of some sort. The Cardassians fought the Federation to a standstill despite being heavily outgunned and outnumbered. The only real factor left is quality; the Federation's military incompetence must be so startling that they are unable to take down even a medium-sized power - suggesting they are one themselves.


Their response to an invasion is to stall for time until Starship-sized replicators are built and the enemy can be swamped.

Starships are not and cannot be replicated. Consider the following


NG Season 7, Ep# 158: "Phantasms"
PICARD VO: Captain's Log, supplemental. The creatures infesting the Enterprise have been completely eliminated. We believe the infestation originated within the warp core we obtained on Starbase Eighty-four.
GEORDI: This conduit was manufactured on Thanatos Seven using a new interphasic fusion process. We think that process must've attracted the organisms to the conduit, where they lay dormant ... until we activated the warp core.
Replication is a very limited technique. Across the series it becomes obvious that many substances and pieces of equipment simply cannot be replicated. Here, obviously, if they're experimenting with various fusion processes in order to make their warp conduits, they must not be able to replicate them. Therefore, starbase spare-parts requirements cannot be met by simply saying that starbases have huge industrial replicators.


Upon victory, anyone who has shown any sign of military competence is demoted or sent to a mental institution to redirect their anti-social tendencies. Military vessels are converted to cargo ships or frying pans, and holodecks installed on any remaining vessels to monitor any aggressive fantasies.
Anybody spell Gulag?

There's another problem with the Federation mobilization principle. Where do they get the crews from? If we look at the Uk in both WW1 and WW2, the small size of initial armed forces was a major constraint on mobilization. There just weren't enough trained soldiers to train the recruits. Asa result the British had severe manpower shortages throughout WW2. In WW1 the situation was made much worse by the destruction of the original trained cadre in 1914/15. That meant there was virtually no skilled training cadre, a factor that explains much of the sad story of 1915 - 1918. The problem isn't top leadership, its senior NCOs and junior officers. The effects of the Dominion War mobilization on Starfleet offiicer/enlisted quality must have been a catastrophic blow.

[Glom]

A few years ago, I wrote a letter to Phil Farrand, author of The Nitpickers Guide for Next Generation Trekkers and follow up books. I gave a run down of some nits in Voyager and First Contact I'd found, but afterwards, I also wrote a short piece on pretty much what you were saying, Stuart, although not in such a professional way. I thought it peculiar also that the Gene Roddenberry would write a series where the good guys were communists in the middle of the Cold War.

Things looked slightly brighter during the period of the Classic movies. In those, Starfleet was treated like it was, a military organisation, whose constant butting in annoyed civilian scientists such as David Marcus.

Personally, I prefer the Ferengi.

[g99]

Amazing stuart. You really got me thinking there. Not that i think about it, it seems that you are right.


So who did Roddenbery make out to be the Western non-communitst factions?

See I origonally thought the Romulans to be Communist (and i still do). Who is the most democratic? Not the Vulcans, Not the Ferengi (i think), Not the cardassians. The only ones i can think of is the Klingons. The vote for their leaders.

[Avatar28]

No, the Romulans are actually a republic. Note the senate and the like. However, I would compare them more with ancient Rome than with the US.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've SEEN any major powers that I could say would be the ST equivalent of the USA. Probably have seen some minor planetary governments, but no major powers.

[g99]

I said the Knlingons, but they seem more like a stylized version of Japan than the U.S.A.

But that i can think of, they are the most democratic.

[Rich]

No, the Romulans are actually a republic. Note the senate and the like. However, I would compare them more with ancient Rome than with the US.

Come to think of it, I don't think I've SEEN any major powers that I could say would be the ST equivalent of the USA. Probably have seen some minor planetary governments, but no major powers.

Isn't it the "Imperial Romulan Senate"?

And g99, the Klingons elect an Emperor... kind of reminds me of how Popes get elected, violence and all (historically speaking of course). After that election it's not much of a democracy.

[Colt]

I thought that the Federation president was elected?

Stuart, do you even like Star Trek? If not, why do you apparently know so much about it? And where are you getting all of these quotes?! *starts thinking that Stuart must be an ex-writer*..

And yes, the Federation is communistic. Just because they are called a Federation does not mean that they are a democracy. :P If you look up the definitions for "federation" and "federal" they sound more like a communist state than a democracy. Of course there is nothing wrong with partial-communism, the reason it won't work in the modern day is because there are power-hungry people who are willing to take over.

I think that the reason we do not see many private enterprises on Star Trek is that all of the shows have been set on ships which are in Starfleet, a military/exploration organization so of course we are going to see more of that than anything else. -Colt

[Colt]

The Romulans aren't half as bad as most episodes make them out to be. -Colt

[captain swoop]

Several points.

There are non human crews but they tend to be complete crews with their own ships, this has been refered to on lotd of occasions in TNG.

Military standoffs are essential to the plots, If all that Picard had to do was call up a task force and wipe the enemy out there would be no point or interest. Similarly if the Enterprise is given unlimited replicators then it's an easy get out for any sticky situation. As it is they cop out of too many problems by suddenly discovering a new partical or 'reconfiguring' everything.
A good example is Dr Who, he had a device called the 'Sonic Screwdriver'. When first encountered with John Pertwee it was used for unscrewing bolts or opening locks. By the time Tom Baker left it could do all sorts of wonderful things and was written out of as being a plot hole getter outer. Similarly with K-9 the robot dog, if the Doc was in trouble he just zoomed up and zapped everyone.
Star Trekisn't about space exploration, or military hardware and tactics or even Sc-Fi. Star Trek is a about the interplay of characters and their reactions to situations and each other, about overcoming the odds and winning through.

[Glom]

Don't say that! If BA learns that there's no sci-fi value in Trek, he'll lock this thread. :P

[Stuart]

Stuart, do you even like Star Trek?
I liked TOS which was a remarkable achievement for its day. The first two series of TNG were pretty grim and it went downhill from there. Voyager was gruesomely awful and Enterprise has failed to reach that standard. DS9 varied from the excellent to the dreadful, sometimes in the same episode.


*starts thinking that Stuart must be an ex-writer*..
Smile when you say that stranger..........


And yes, the Federation is communistic. Just because they are called a Federation does not mean that they are a democracy. If you look up the definitions for "federation" and "federal" they sound more like a communist state than a democracy. Of course there is nothing wrong with partial-communism, the reason it won't work in the modern day is because there are power-hungry people who are willing to take over.
This is a very standard apologia for the excesses of communist regimes. I'm one of the people who has actually read Das Kapital in its entirity (don't try that at home kiddies, its a sure recipe for a serious case of brain pain). Its difficult to decide whether Karl marx was incredibly naive or exremely dishonest. His basic philosophy was that if the State is given supreme power, then it will not abuse that power. In fact, a study of the failed communist regimes has shown that the communist ideology can only be brought about by the use of unrelenting state coercion. Communist ideology, by its very nature, can only be effected by a police state with supreme power invsted in and used by the state. The reason why it doesn't work is because it can't; the basic mechanisms proposed are not conducive to an efficient and effective state system. Its nothing to do with power-hungry people taking over (except in that the ideology can only be applied by people whose basic nature is power-hungry) . Pol Pot in Cambodia was a classic communist and his regime was taken straight out of communist theory. They didn't call the result "the killing fields" for nothing.


I think that the reason we do not see many private enterprises on Star Trek is that all of the shows have been set on ships which are in Starfleet, a military/exploration organization so of course we are going to see more of that than anything else.

The problem is we don't see anything that even hints of a private sector or even private possessions. There isn't a trade mark or logo visible anywhere in any of the series. Not even in Quark's bar - when did you last see a bar without advertisements for the appropriate products? We never hear about a private corporation within the Federation. A good example is the DS9 episode "Prodigal Daughter", which features a mining company founded by Ezri's parents and operates out of New Sydney. It quickly becomes apparent that New Sydney is a city on a non-Federation world and their financial dealings were handled with precious substances instead of Federation credits? Note also that Federation "credits" are not taken seriously by anybody outside the Federation. Another critical sign of Federation economic and political weakness. To get how serious that is, try travelling with a pocket full of US dollars. You'll find that not only are they accepted worldwide, in many (most?) countries you'll get a discount on the price of your purchase if you offer the seller a greenback or two. in payment - in preference to the local currency. Acceptance of currency is a key indicator of a nation-state's wealth, power and prominence. What's the actual instrument of inter-power trade in the ST Universe? Gulprest Latinum - the Ferengi currency. That tells us a lot about the relative economic strength of the Federation and the Ferengi.

[Stuart]

There are non human crews but they tend to be complete crews with their own ships, this has been refered to on lotd of occasions in TNG.
That is correct, but the same could be said to apply to the Romulans and Klingons. We've never seen an all-Vulcan or all-Betazoid crew in Star Trek; they're just spoken of. So other Romulan and Klingon ships could be crewed by other races from their empires. Incidently, there is some evidence that is correct for the Klingons - look at the difference between TOS Klingons and those appearing later. Its pretty obvious that Kirk and co ran into ships crewed by a different race from the Klingon Empire.


Military standoffs are essential to the plots, If all that Picard had to do was call up a task force and wipe the enemy out there would be no point or interest. Similarly if the Enterprise is given unlimited replicators then it's an easy get out for any sticky situation. As it is they cop out of too many problems by suddenly discovering a new particle or 'reconfiguring' everything.
AKA technobabble. As to the other point, remember we're trying to figure out how the Federation as shown in thes eries works and is situated (in an astro-political sense) . The dramatic resons behind the decisions aren't really our concern.


Star Trek isn't about space exploration, or military hardware and tactics or even Sc-Fi. Star Trek is a about the interplay of characters and their reactions to situations and each other, about overcoming the odds and winning through.
Your last comment is true about all drama. Its so general that it really lacks meaning; all stories, in the final analysis are "about the interplay of characters and their reactions to situations and each other, about overcoming the odds and winning through". That applies to The Illiad or The Epic of Gilgamesh as much as Star Trek or to the novels of Dornford Yates.

Star Trek is science fiction; more importantly it's about a sub-set of science fiction that deals with space travel and space hardware. It very specifically is about those subjects. If it wasn't, it would be indistinguisable from The Guiding Light. Star Trek, however, makes another claim - it and its supporters claim that its realistic, scientifically based and depicts an attainable future. What we're showing here is that its basic presumptions are so faulty that whatever aspect of the show we look at, whether its astronomy, economics, politics or military, the whole show falls apart. It's Bad Economics, Bad Politics, Bad Military and Bad Science all merge together to form a cohesive whole that's the ultimate in Bad Astronomy.

[snowcelt]

Stuart: I will, without a doubt, stick my foot in my mouth: but, did not Marx say that there would be a transition in which the government would have to carry the revolution to the end? An end where, finally, the people would be able to govern themselves without government? The reality of whether this kind of ideology works or not can only be proven by time. The latest round of communism has failed, but, it is not dead.

In the far future of ST, it has been mentioned more than once that people of this era are beyond material wants. Communisim? Maybe. But one thing we know is that the 24th century is not Kansas anymore Toto.

[SollyLama]

It seems to me that Federation Credits are only good OUTSIDE of the Federation. I distinctly recall Picard telling someone (from the past I believe) that they no longer value any form of currency. He then uttered an eerily marxist statement about everyone's needs being filled by the Federation. Forgot the episode though.

So does that mean that to join the Federation a civilization must utterly forgo their use of currency?

What about the poker games? They could just be friendly games with no value attached to the chips, however that would make for a pointless game. Every hand would invite a huge bluff as losing means nothing.

ST represents the ultimate in welfare state. Hey, they predicted the Clinton Administration! But really, why would anyone go through the difficulty of Starfleet Academy (or any job) if all your needs are provided free of charge? What body determines what your 'needs' are?

Ah, fanatical imperialism must be the answer. The Federation brainwashes it's citizens into not only accepting whatever the gov't determines to be their 'needs' but also to dedicate their lives to spreading that system to everyone they encounter.

As to why we don't see much racial diversity in enemy ship crews, perhaps that is because these cultures do not tolerate the existence of the conquered cultures. Maybe the Klingons just kill any inhabitants of planets they capture, for example. We know the Cardassians esentially enslaved the Bajorans. It makes sense that they may be servants on ships, but not allowed onto the bridge for security purposes. Given the Romulans fixation on secrecy, it would make sense for them to kill anyone on a planet they capture.

This leads to the issue of actually inhabiting the places they conquer though. Assuming the conquest was to exploit resources, these empires would quickly run out of bodies to do the resource exploitation.

[Firefox]

A good read on the communist nature of the Federation would be found here. (http://www.stardestroyer.net/Empire/Essays/Trek-Marxism.html) I suppose the political discussion should be dropped, anyways.


Adam

[Glom]

Stuart's marvellous when he's has conviction. :P

So you thought DS9 was good in places? What parts did you like? Personally, I liked the Ferengi aspect, up until they Federationified it and it became crappy towards the end of the seventh season. I also liked the alternate universe. Nana Visitor was brilliant IMO. Episodes I liked best include 'The Seige of AR-558' (I know we nitpicked that, but I still thought it was well done despite the holes), 'Duet', 'Call to Arms' (who could beat that closing shot?), 'In the Pale Moonlight', 'The Ascent', 'The Ship', 'Hard Time' and 'The Forsaken' (I love Lwaxana Troi).

So here's my idea for a spinoff. Lwaxana Troi gets made Federation ambassador to Ferenginar at around the fourth season of DS9, when the Ferengi Alliance was at its most fun. With the Federation and the Klingons on the brink of war and the Klingons occupying Cardassian territory, Lwaxana finds herself each week involved in some wacky way with the business schemes of Grand Nagus Zek, which very frequently will involve a Defiant 8) class starship, which is brought in simply because it's gorgeous.

Alright, there's no need to be cruel. It was just an idea. :( :oops:

[snowcelt]

SollyLama: You should take a look outside of your countries view! There are many countries that are socialist and manage quit well. Do you actually think that people are singualarily motivated by cash? A culture that finds motivation in something beyond cash should not be derided. Why do people aspire to great heights in the U.S. when all is supplied? Well, at least in the eyes of an African or a Haitian.

All can see that the Federation is a gang of under achievers. One minute the Vulcans are Man's mentors, the next thing, man is running the Federation. Man just happens to be the ones that take control. How? IT WAS A COMMUNIST PLOT!

[Val Trottan]

I thought that the "official" explaination for the differences in TOS Klingons and NG Klingons was:

TOS Klingons: Part of a genetic experiment to make Klingons less intimidating and alien-looking to humans so that an eventual takeover could be had easily.

NG Klingons: Unaltered Klingons, all who know about the failed genetic experiments and don't discuss it. Worf, on the DSN episode where they time travel back to the Trouble with Tribbles episode spills the beans — from what I remember about this.
I think he tries to sidetrack the question when posed by either the Captain or Dax.

[Glom]

The idea is that the citizens of the Federation seek to better themselves and the rest of humanity. It's very noble, if unfathomable. Of course, what Stuart said about the economics of the Federation still holds. There is not much sign of private enterprise such that the state does appear marxist.

[captain swoop]

I thought that the "official" explaination for the differences in TOS Klingons and NG Klingons was:

TOS Klingons: Part of a genetic experiment to make Klingons less intimidating and alien-looking to humans so that an eventual takeover could be had easily.

NG Klingons: Unaltered Klingons, all who know about the failed genetic experiments and don't discuss it. Worf, on the DSN episode where they time travel back to the Trouble with Tribbles episode spills the beans ? from what I remember about this.
I think he tries to sidetrack the question when posed by either the Captain or Dax.

In the episode of DS9 where they go back in time to TOS Enterprise, the Doc sees an original Klingon and asks Worf 'What happened?"

Worf replied 'We don't talk about it'

As for not needing money, that was in the episode where they find a bunch of frozen 20thC types and explain to the agressive business man that the persuit of wealth and goods doesn't happen anymore as they have replicators.

[captain swoop]

The idea is that the citizens of the Federation seek to better themselves and the rest of humanity. It's very noble, if unfathomable. Of course, what Stuart said about the economics of the Federation still holds. There is not much sign of private enterprise such that the state does appear marxist.

What's the point of private enterprise when you can replicate things?

Anyway don't forget it's about space exploration in the 24th C not business practice.

[Stuart]

Stuart: I will, without a doubt, stick my foot in my mouth: but, did not Marx say that there would be a transition in which the government would have to carry the revolution to the end? An end where, finally, the people would be able to govern themselves without government? The reality of whether this kind of ideology works or not can only be proven by time. The latest round of communism has failed, but, it is not dead.

MArx lists ten commandments for the establishment of his Utopian State. Lets look at them.

1. Abolition of property in land and application of all rents of land to public purposes.

2. A heavy progressive or graduated income tax.

3. Abolition of all rights of inheritance.

4. Confiscation of the property of all emigrants and rebels. (Note From me - This one needs a little explanation. Marx defines "emigrants" as anybody who attempts to move away from the location assigned to him by the state and "rebels" as anybody who does not comply with duties and functions the state imposes upon him.)

5. Centralization of credit in the banks of the state, by means of a national bank with state capital and an exclusive monopoly.

6. Centralization of the means of communication and transport in the hands of the state.

7. Extension of factories and instruments of production owned by the state; the bringing into cultivation of waste lands, and the improvement of the soil generally in accordance with a common plan.

8. Equal obligation of all to work. Establishment of industrial armies, especially for agriculture.

9. Combination of agriculture with manufacturing industries; gradual abolition of all the distinction between town and country by a more equable distribution of the populace over the country.

10. Free education for all children in public schools. (Another note from me - this also needs some explanation. Marx is not merely advocating the creation of public schools but the elimination of the family and parental input in child upbringing. His system envisages taking children away from their parents almost at birth and bringing them up in state boarding schools. He explicitly states that those schools should be integrated with industrial facilities so that children work and go to school at the same time. Marx doesn't abolish child labor, his proposals institutionalize and extend it. at the expense of child education.

Note the constant references to "the state". Who runs this state? Marx tells us in another passage. He states that "the state" should be run by a cadre consisting of communists who "have no interests separate and apart from those of the proletariat as a whole." In short, far from the statement that the state would wither and die, Marx sees it as being run by a small self-perpetuating cadre of true believers whose criteria for acceptance into that cadre is unquestioning obedience to the dogma. Looked at this way, its quite clear that, far from being perversions of the Marxist ideal, the works of people like Pol Pot, Stalin and Mao Zedong are communism in its purest form. What marx actually said about the state withering away referred to the capitalist parts dying away, leaving only the institutions of the communist state to be run by the cadre of communist true believers.

How does this impinge on astronomy? Note the bit about the state having total control of the means of communication. This means people like Bart Sibrel and Nancy Lieder have complete and unrestricted ability to control what information is available and what is not, provided they are part of that ruling elite. Think that's a joke? Back in the 1930s, a guy called Lysenko came up with a theory of "genetics" that stated imposed changes in external circumstances altered the genetic code. In short, cut off a mouse's tail and, after several generations of such treatment, mice would be born without tails (I'm not making this up, promise). Lysenkoism was well-suited to the new Marxist state since its suggested that human behavior could be permanently changed (to create the "New Soviet Man") by changing society (there are echoes of that in Star Trek). Lysenkoism became the accepted scientific truth in the USSR and it was impossible to dispute it. There was simply no communications system by which it could be done. Lysenkoism had many effects on the USSR, all bad, but one is worth mentioning. Lysenkoism suggests that exposure to radiation was something to which a victim could build up tolerance. It also predicted that the acquired tolerance to radiation could be passed on genetically. Therefore, in the Soviet nuclear industry during the 1950s, it was cmmonplace to expose pregnant women to radiation so they would produce babies with higher tolerances for radioactive exposure. (The same thing was done in the chemical industry except using exposure to toxic chemicals).

Lysenko was Bad Genetics; however it was the Marxist system that allowed Bad Science to become established. Star Trek's doing the same; because it clothes itself in a veneer of scientific plausibility, its providing fertile growth medium for Bad Astronomy to take hold and grow.

[Stuart]

I thought that the "official" explaination for the differences in TOS Klingons and NG Klingons was:

TOS Klingons: Part of a genetic experiment to make Klingons less intimidating and alien-looking to humans so that an eventual takeover could be had easily.

NG Klingons: Unaltered Klingons, all who know about the failed genetic experiments and don't discuss it. Worf, on the DSN episode where they time travel back to the Trouble with Tribbles episode spills the beans — from what I remember about this. I think he tries to sidetrack the question when posed by either the Captain or Dax.

He just doesn't answer. I think the "Different race, same empire" explanation is a lot simpler and complies with Occams Razor. Canon says nothing to explain the discrepancy.

[Stuart]

What's the point of private enterprise when you can replicate things? Anyway don't forget it's about space exploration in the 24th C not business practice.

Replication is very limited and requires feedstock so there is a cost attached. It can be seen as an efficient means of mass production more than anything else. We see again and again that many substances and complex machinery simply cannot be replicated.

[SeanF]

I thought that the "official" explaination for the differences in TOS Klingons and NG Klingons was:

TOS Klingons: Part of a genetic experiment to make Klingons less intimidating and alien-looking to humans so that an eventual takeover could be had easily.

NG Klingons: Unaltered Klingons, all who know about the failed genetic experiments and don't discuss it. Worf, on the DSN episode where they time travel back to the Trouble with Tribbles episode spills the beans — from what I remember about this. I think he tries to sidetrack the question when posed by either the Captain or Dax.

He just doesn't answer. I think the "Different race, same empire" explanation is a lot simpler and complies with Occams Razor. Canon says nothing to explain the discrepancy.

"Different race, same empire" doesn't cut it because three characters (Kor, Klang, and Koloth) have appeared in both makeup forms (played by the same actors) in different series . . .

[Stuart]

"Different race, same empire" doesn't cut it because three characters (Kor, Klang, and Koloth) have appeared in both makeup forms (played by the same actors) in different series . . .
Trans-racial adoptions into notable families to improve empire solidarity?

[snowcelt]

Stuart: You scare the s*** out of me. :wink: But a few nitpiks are in order, I believe. Sorry, I have not the skill to bring up quotes with any skill; therefore, I will try to rebutte your cogency by refering to the numbers that you have so kindly supplied. I have the horrid feeling that by the time I finish I will find myself in a communist country. Time to examine reality.

1. In many parts of my country a land owner only has rights to the surface of the land. Canada has some of the western world's highest tax. But we also have a half assed social net.

2. If you are rich you have a responsibility. Philanthropists are few and far between. Tax the *******s.

3. Why should your s**thead kid get what you earned? As a republican, surely you can see where this can lead (hereditary like the English monarchy)?

[SeanF]

"Different race, same empire" doesn't cut it because three characters (Kor, Klang, and Koloth) have appeared in both makeup forms (played by the same actors) in different series . . .
Trans-racial adoptions into notable families to improve empire solidarity?
Well, it was obviously supposed to be the same guys, not children/fathers (adopted or otherwise), although I don't know if that was specifically stated anywhere. You've got access to all those scripts - any references in "Blood Oath," "Sword of Kahless," or "Once More Unto the Breach" regarding these characters interactions with Kirk? :)

[Val Trottan]

Hmmm.
It's been a while since I saw DSN.
I am positive that I heard that explaination somewheres "official." Maybe in one of the books or mags on Star Trek.
At least, the way it was presented to me lead me to believe that it was what the Trek Universe came up with dealing with that particular issue.
Didn't phase me. Retcons happen all the time in fiction, although mostly in comics.

The Mighty Thor is one example.
The Green Lantern is another.
I think they also changed a lot of Superman over the years, adding in a lot of Kryptonian specifics not mentioned in the originals.

[snowcelt]

4. This one is not something I have noted in my country. Would'nt want to see it either.

5. Here is a bag of snakes. What is the state? In Canada, the various banks have free will. But, there is a pressure to join so that this nation can 'compete' with the rest of the world. But Stuart, you surely know that your country, like mine has a banking industry that is 'independent'. But the money supply is controlled by the state. In the U.S. there seems to be a psuedo independence because the Fed is run by private concerns. Monopoly? Does it matter who's?

6. Is there not intrusive regulation already? D.O.T. in Canada, F.A.A. in the U.S.? Communication is being compromised as we speak. Can you not see that government and the corporations have already engaged. The wedding band is but a generation away.

[snowcelt]

7. What? There is no federal welfare to ensure that the arms industry is not well protected from competion? Energy is not a state protected entity? If you try and say that the creation of a vibrant state like Arizona (in the middle of a waste land) as not a government creation? What the heck is not communism?

8. If you do not work you die. the rest is outdated.

9. outdated.

10. This is a hard one. The argument has been made that childern are being raised in a creche like world already. Parents have seemed to have abandoned responsibility of their children to the state already. The states function in school seems to go more from the three 'Rs', to how to be a basic human.

I know I am only looking at this society we live in with a limited veiw. But, if none can see that we are running into a world of socialist ** ASP, better wake the f*** up!

In the 24th century we will be a heck of a lot more militant then Roddenberry thought. Why? Because we will still be mean hairless apes.

[Glom]

That's harsh.

[dgruss23]

This has been a great thread, but now I fear its getting too far off topic and will be locked. Lets hope we get this back on track before the BA decides enough is enough.

[frenat]

I think the "Different race, same empire" explanation is a lot simpler and complies with Occams Razor. Canon says nothing to explain the discrepancy.

gee and all this time I thought it was just due to the low budget of TOS :wink:

[daver]

Hmm, i thought i posted this but i didn't see it.

We see a few private traders in TOS: the merchant with Captain Pike lusting over the green Orion slave girls, Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones. There might be others, but i don't remember them. Interesting that all merchants i remember are low lifes, whose activities border on the criminal.

[SollyLama]

You should take a look outside of your countries view! There are many countries that are socialist and manage quit well.
That's why America shares super-power status with anyone else, huh? When the US dollar isn't the GLOBAL standard against which countries currency must compete, I'll buy that argument.

[Colt]

I am not even going to remark on all of this.. It has become just a little too in-depth and heated. Too much political stuff. :cry:

Ex Astris Scientia's (http://www.ex-astris-scientia.org/inconsistencies1a.htm) thoughts on the Klingon problem. -Colt

[captain swoop]

Klingons and Romulans in TOS were just seen as pastiches of different Earth political systems, rememeber it was all about the Cold War.

Any TV prog is a product of it's time, that's why in TNG we had all the 'new Age' lets be nice stuff, In the 90s we had DS9 holding onto the edge of civilisation against the forces of anarchy and chaos.

As for traders on the edge of 'civilised' space being dodgy semi-criminals, well, that's an old stereotype, if they were legit why would they be out there?

[Pinemarten]

Holy Dip Batman!
Is this thread cruising to a BA record?

I wish I had the time to bone up on the preceeding posts; but I don't.

Should it be left alone, condensed, or....?
I am simply curious, no poll is needed.

[Stuart]

This has been a great thread, but now I fear its getting too far off topic and will be locked. Lets hope we get this back on track before the BA decides enough is enough.

Indeed so; the diversion into politics was regrettable - however, it does bring into focus an interesting aspect of the Federation and Bad Astronomy.

One of the noticable themes of Voyager and some parts of Deep Space Nine is the emphasis on mystical philosphies of various types. With, by the way, the overt statement that there is a sound paranormal basis for such religious beliefs (note that this does not extend to Christianity - although there was a chapel scene in TOS, in the later seriei, the writers go out of their way to include every religious belief except Christianity). As examples, we have the stress laid on "Indian Spirit Guides" in the early Voyager episodes. It appears in the Star Trek universe, praying to "Indian Spirit Guides" is appropriate while praying to "Christian Saints" is not. My guess is that this has had two profound effects on Federation culture. One is that its an effect of the total state control of communications - it needs only one fanatic in a position of authority to tilt coverage and dissemination in the direction of pseudoscience - and it suggests that emphasis on hard science is dying as a result. The other is that the pool of scientific information available in the Federation is becoming steadily contaminated with pseudoscientific data that goes unchallenged because the state-controlled communications networks won't allow such challenges (nor will the state-run scientific research associations fund such challenges).

We can see the same thing happening in the US in areas where the "creation science" idiots use positions gained on school boards etc to suppress hard science in favor of their pseudoscience. That necessarily means that teaching of science in general suffers badly. Thus, Bad Astronomy, Bad Science and Bad Physics all are linked in that they are products of monopolistic communications and research capabilities. As Michael Wong points out "A society structured thusly (Stu - one where religious/pseudoscience is indivisible from the state and cannot be effectively challenged) cannot possibly thrive in a technological era. It is not a coincidence that the rise of science coincided with the rise of the secular state (more than half of the scientists throughout all of human history lived during the 20th century). The development of science and technology require a strong rational mindset and an environment open to revolutionary ideas, not a mindless adherence to dogma and an environment hostile to diversity."

Given that the spread of Pseudoscience seems to extend beyond the Federation (the Klingons seem particularly hit by the phenomena),does it not seem that the whole of the Klingon/Romulan/Federation/others nexus is collapsing? That the growth of Pseudoscience in general is a large part of that collapse? Makes the work of sites like this very important.

[captain swoop]

In Voyager it isn't Pseudoscientific though, it works. I think there is a distinction drawn between religion and 'folkways', things that work but haven't been explained by science yet, it allows the script writers to have a bunch of plot variations available that wouldn't exist otherwise. Like the use of 'The Force' in the 1st 3 Star Wars films, before it became an all powerful 'kung foo' thing.

[snowcelt]

Given that the spread of Pseudoscience seems to extend beyond the Federation (the Klingons seem particularly hit by the phenomena),does it not seem that the whole of the Klingon/Romulan/Federation/others nexus is collapsing? That the growth of Pseudoscience in general is a large part of that collapse? Makes the work of sites like this very important.[/quote]

Stuart posted the above with good reason. I think that pseudoscience has become a phenomenon that none can deny. All we can do is debunk. One way all of us can do this is by pointing out the realities of projected B.S. Many youths grasp scientific reality through the medium of S.F. Time to show that science is real---not some type of star treckie kind of crap. Do not get me wrong. I like ST. However, debunking pseudo stuff is entertaining for all of us that know, and educational to those who do not.

As far as cloaking devises go, I think that this tech is a metaphor. Those that use this tech are clocked, those, like the Fed, do not use this tech because they have no need (think in a democratic world/universe). The tech is not beyond the Fed! This restriction is like the old anti-ballistic treaty of the 60s. One where you say 'sure', when you can't do 'anything' anyways. If we were to take a good look (and I have seen some good one's in this thread already), we would see that these tech advantages only work for those powers that have an aggressive agenda. Or at worst unilateral agendas. If anyone thinks that my thoughts have any bearing to the present day you are only partially correct.

[Glom]

Long live BABB.

Watch 'The Fifth Race'. You haven't seen Stargate SG-1 until you've seen 'The Fifth Race'. That is how you get spiritual in a TV series without getting pseudoscientific.

[g99]

Hmmmm...Don't remember that episode Glom. Can you give us a synopsis?

[Colt]

Buahahahahaha.. The things you can find through Googling (http://www.google.com) :The Fifth Race (http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s2/215.shtml)

-Colt

[g99]

ahhh...thanks colt! :-)

[Colt]

You're welcome! -Colt

[Glom]

Great link, Colt.

[SollyLama]

proof positive that the Federation is so militarily weak that it should be wiped from the face of the galaxy.

Picard gets kidnapped and tortured by the romulans. The captain of the flagship of the fleet gets snatched and tortured and the federation does NOTHING. Can you say "Act of War?"
Wasn't Riker captured once too? When he thought he was in an asylum.

Think the Klingons would let that fly?????

[pulsar4529]

Buahahahahaha.. The things you can find through Googling (http://www.google.com) :The Fifth Race (http://www.gateworld.net/sg1/s2/215.shtml)


wow, that link is impressive. Thanks for the link Colt!

[Colt]

:D -Colt

[Stuart]

We see a few private traders in TOS: the merchant with Captain Pike lusting over the green Orion slave girls, Harry Mudd, Cyrano Jones. There might be others, but i don't remember them. Interesting that all merchants i remember are low lifes, whose activities border on the criminal.

There is a very revealing quote from early on in Startrek TNG.


TNG Season 1, Ep# 7: "The Last Outpost"
DATA: The Ferengi are... well, the best description may be "traders."
PICARD: What kind of "traders"?
DATA: A more accurate comparison modern scholars have drawn from Earth history cites the ocean-going "Yankee Traders" of eighteenth and nineteenth century America, sir.
RIKER: From the history of my forebears? "Yankee Traders?"
DATA (nods): Who sail, in this case the galaxy, in search of
mercantile and territorial opportunity.
RIKER: And are those scholars saying the Ferengi may not
be too different from us?
DATA: Hardly, sir. I believe this analogy refers to the nefarious capitalist manner in which the Ferengi are known to conduct their affairs of commerce.
The emphasis is mine. This is a very interesting example froma pivotal episode - the one that introduces the Ferengi to the Startrek Universe. Its apparent that by this time, even the word capitalism has acquired a very negative context, with the assumption that those who practice it are, at best, potential criminals. A further study of the text of this episode reinforces this position (and, by the way, reveals that the Ferengi are very much the "good guys" of the Startrek universe)


"The Last Outpost"
LETEK: And there is even more! We can prove the humans are destroyers of legal commerce ... also that they selfishly withhold vital technology from backward worlds...
MORDOC: And necessary defensive weapons, too. We Ferengi are now challenge this human madness.

This passage also suggests the real reason for the hostility between the Federation and the Ferengi. It is fairly obvious that the Federation has been attempting to restrict Ferengi trade activities, a set of actions that reveals much about their mind-set. Historically, free trade has generally led to a removal of barriers and blurring differences between neighbouring societies (for example, take the prevalence of McDonalds restaurants around the world - or the presence of Pizza restaurants in the USA). The Ferengi obviously take the present-day US position, that trade barriers hurt rather than helping. In contrast, the Federation clearly feels that trade barriers must be maintained, if necessary by force, even if neither trading partner wants them. They want primitive societies to remain primitive indefinitely (it's for their own good, of course, and not for the purpose of perpetuating the Federation's regional hegemony), and poor societies to remain poor indefinitely (unless, of course, they ask to join the Federation).

Looked at this way, its hard to avoid the conclusion that, in the war with the Dominion, the wrong side won.

[captain swoop]

snip


The Ferengi obviously take the present-day US position, that trade barriers hurt rather than helping. In contrast, the Federation clearly feels that trade barriers must be maintained, if necessary by force, even if neither trading partner wants them. They want primitive societies to remain primitive indefinitely (it's for their own good, of course, and not for the purpose of perpetuating the Federation's regional hegemony), and poor societies to remain poor indefinitely (unless, of course, they ask to join the Federation).

Looked at this way, its hard to avoid the conclusion that, in the war with the Dominion, the wrong side won.


But the US attitude to free trade does hurt.

If the US wanted free trade it would remove it's own punative tarrif on steel imports and the massive subsidy that US farmers get.

USA also applies tarrifs to processed agricultural or mineral products. This means that an developing country is free to sell raw materials to the USA but any processing is hit with tarrifs. For example Copper ore comes in but refined copper is banned.

How is this free trade?

Federation Prime Directive is designed to protect primative worlds from interferance and exploitation.

What would have happened to 14th Century Europe if the French had started to trade with the Ferrengi but other countries couldn't?

This was dealt with by Dr Who in Season 11 'The time Warrior'.
Linx a Sontaran has provided a robber baron called Irongron with advanced weapons to use in attacks on neighbouring castles.
The Doctor helps Sir Edward of Wessex to repel one such attack, then he and Sarah conspire to drug the food in Irongron's kitchens so that the weapons can be removed while the men are unconscious.

[tracer]

What would have happened to 14th Century Europe if the French had started to trade with the Ferrengi but other countries couldn't?
We already know that the French have traded with the Coneheads, after all.

[QuagmaPhage]

In contrast, the Federation clearly feels that trade barriers must be maintained, if necessary by force, even if neither trading partner wants them. They want primitive societies to remain primitive indefinitely (it's for their own good, of course, and not for the purpose of perpetuating the Federation's regional hegemony), and poor societies to remain poor indefinitely (unless, of course, they ask to join the Federation).


The Federation don't want primitive societies to remain primitive, but they want them to develop on their own, and learn the dangers of technology by themselves instead of having some level of culture and technology applied from seemingly mighty aliens. This is clearly seen in the TNG episodes Who's watching the Watchers? (3rd season) and First Contact (4th season).

It's a lesson learnt on Earth where "primitive" societies historically have suffered tremendously and some have been destroyed when they came in contact with more developed societies (mostly Europeans in the last 500 hundred years).

[Glom]

Stargate SG-1 follows similar principles, except this time, Earth is at the receiving end of the arrogant superior races. The Tollan constantly refused to give Earth advanced technology despite the fact that they once saved them from a Goa'uld attack, with the help of the Nox, Lya ('Pretense'). When the Tollan began to explore space, they encountered another inhabited planet in their system, which had a more primitive society. They made contact with them only when they had advanced to a certain point, which placed them on par with Earth. The Tollan gave them some advanced technology to improve their economy, but instead, they used it for war and destroyed their planet within a day. This shifted Tollan in its orbit setting a cataclysmic chain of events in action, which led to the Tollan being forced to relocated to a new homeworld. Hence there was an extreme resistance to sharing technology with more primitive cultures.

[Colt]

Most of the examples of withholding technology in Star Trek have good reasons, like those state above. However there are times when it seem unnecessarily strict. There are also times when I also get the feeling that the Federation is bullying less technologically advanced (can you call a civilization with Warp primitive?) civilizations into joining the Federation for whatever reason. -Colt

[Glom]

You may be referring to 'First Contact' [TNG]. I agree they displayed some very arrogant behaviour. Not to mention sorry observation skills. Couldn't they realise that the Malcorians weren't the most accepting people in the galaxy?

[snowcelt]

I love this thread. But, I think that there has to be a reality. I have seen almost all that can be seen on this post. If, we look at what has been stated before, I see that there are points betwixted. I see real thought. Say what you want to say: We (mankind) would have had to have came up with the tech aforementioned, otherwise we would have become the slaves of the galactics. Bejorians would be bad slaves; and, as we all know, we (humans) are good at it.

[Glom]

Not wanting this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?t=6302) to get too OT, I would like to shift the conversation hither (cool word) as this thread has gone beyond OT and entered the realm of The Stuart Show (I'd watch 8) ).

Earlier here, Stuart reviewed military portrayal in 'The Seige of AR-558' [DS9], he did the same thing about 'Starship Down' [DS9] in the other thread. But, I was wondering if Stuart could give us his opinions of these military oriented episodes.

'Balance of Terror' [TOS]
'The Best of Both Worlds' [TNG]
'The Ship' [DS9]
'Nor the Battle to the Strong' [DS9]
'Empok Nor' [DS9]
'Call to Arms' [DS9]
'A Time to Stand' [DS9]
'Sacrifice of Angels' [DS9]

[Doodler]

Personally, I thought Babylon 5 handled the technological disparity in the early seasons rather well. The Earth Alliance was considered a major power after it beat the Dilgar back with martial cunning and strategy to overcome a technology handicap which gave them a bit of backbone which propelled Humans into the ranks of the major powers, but its fight with the Minbari was devastatingly lopsided until the Narns traded them for advanced weapons, which turned the Minbari War from a one sided slaughter into a painful world by world advance that cost them dearly even as they continued on towards Earth. They still plowed the Earth Alliance, but not without cost. The technical disparity remained in place even into the second and third seasons, with the humans still using rotating sections to generate gravity and certain cruisers in complete zero gravity altogether, only barely breached when the Whitestar was introduced. Even then, its technology was beyond human capability, we were simply allowed to sit in the command chair. Then on into the Vorlon, Shadow and other First Ones, who can be forgiven for having technology well into hand waving territory considering the level of advancement they possessed.

Sure you can chew on the concept of hyperspace, and the Not-So-Great Machine of Epsilon III, but credit where its due, they did about a A- job of covering the idea of disparate technology.

[mike alexander]

Sorry if i missed it, but this is a loooong thread.

The plot of the original cloaking story is just about a direct steal (erase. It is a direct steal) from the movie "The Enemy Below", Bob Mitchum and Curt Jurgens. Even as a kid I noticed that.

[captain swoop]

Sorry if i missed it, but this is a loooong thread.

The plot of the original cloaking story is just about a direct steal (erase. It is a direct steal) from the movie "The Enemy Below", Bob Mitchum and Curt Jurgens. Even as a kid I noticed that.

Saw that film a few days ago on the BBC, quite good as submarine films go.

[Gremalkyn]

I own it (I am a sub junkie). I also like that it was referenced in "Crimson Tide," during the bus-loading scene.

[Colt]

How did it reference it? I haven't actually seen the movie, I want to know though. :D -Colt

[Gremalkyn]

Two of the officers are discussing the cast of the movie, like a submariner's trivia game. Quite appropriate, considering the officers serve on a modern SSN.

The question is: who played the German captain?

The officers debate back and forth, until a really large enlisted sits in the seat in front of them.

The enlisted subsequently "steps on it" and is challenged to give the correct answer. The enlisted fails, and has to do push-ups.

[Gremalkyn]

(Just because I like these kinds of connections)

"The Enemy Below" also stars David Hedison as Lt. Ware (Executive Officer [XO]) for the destroyer. Hedison would later play Capt. Lee B. Crane on "Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea," my first sci-fi memory. I would have seen *originals,* not reruns. :D

(See? Told you I was a sub junkie!)

[Doodler]

I was under the impression Balance of Terror was a deliberate homage to the Enemy Below?

[daver]

I was under the impression Balance of Terror was a deliberate homage to the Enemy Below?

Yes. This is mentioned in one of the TOS books (probably one of Gerrold's). He also mentions that the other Romulan story (The Enterprise Incident) started out as a retelling of (i think) the Pueblo incident, but underwent some serious changes.

[Stuart]

But, I was wondering if Stuart could give us his opinions of these military oriented episodes.

'Balance of Terror' [TOS]
'The Best of Both Worlds' [TNG]
'The Ship' [DS9]
'Nor the Battle to the Strong' [DS9]
'Empok Nor' [DS9]
'Call to Arms' [DS9]
'A Time to Stand' [DS9]
'Sacrifice of Angels' [DS9]

I haven't time to do these all at once so I'll try do fit them in as can. Starting with Balance of Terror.

In my opinion this is one of the better (if not one of the best) TOS episodes. As pointed out, the plot is stolen from "The Enemy Below" which was also something of a watermark in the depiction of two sides in a conflict. One of the key things about "The Enemy Below" was the virtual equality of the two sides in technical terms - the DE and the submarine were virtually evenly matched. That was historically correct; a US DE was considered an even match for a Type IX U-boat. This carries over into the TOS episode; the two sides (and the two Captains) are evenly matched.

Earlier, we had a string where we were talking about how a war in space would actually be fought. In many ways, Balance of Terror comes close to what we were considering. The Romulan ship has a one-hit one-kill weapons system, its limitation being that its a straight-runner and a slow one at that. Both Captains are depending upon deception and misdirection to offset the weaknesses of their ships and maximize their tactical advantages.

This episode also discounts the claim that's been made here to the effect that a realistic depeiction of sensors and weapons couldn't be done because of the need for "dramatic tension". Balance of Terror with its sensor problems and the threat of the Romulan weapon drips dramatic tension. This shows that the "dramatic tension" argument is really a feeble excuse for lousy scriptwriting and poor direction/production.

By the way, question often asked; why does the E run backwards from the Plasma shot instead of going off at an angle? Its all a question of vectors - going sideways reduces the amount of seperation (or increases the rate of loss of seperation) between ship and incoming. If the sideways motion isn't enough to get the ship clear of the incoming (a factor determined by the diameter of the pattern), running straight backwards is a better bet.

Another interesting point; E is virtually disabled by a nuclear device (yield unknown but probably not that high). This points out something that we've noted before. Star Fleet sensors cannot detect nuclear devices because of the presence of actinides. This means shooting down starships in orbit is a very easy task. Jam the sensors, then put a really big (or even better a cluster of really big) devices in an intercept orbit.

Sensors is a key point here and we are learning something that becomes more obvious throughout the episodes right up to the end of Voyager. Star Fleet sensors really are not very good. TOS is a bit hard to get hard quotes on (their definition of performance is - very wisely - kept wooly). TNG is more forthcoming; for example


TNG Season 1, Ep# 5: "Haven"
VALEDA: An incoming vessel has bypassed our stargate, violating our law. It has refused all attempts at communication. ... (several minutes pass)
DATA: Unidentified vessel. Traveling sub-warp speed, bearing two-three-five, mark seven.
PICARD: Sub-warp? It's several hours away then? ...
PICARD: Exactly when will they reach Haven?
DATA: Exactly thirteen hours, nine minutes, twenty-one...

Interesting, a potential target was able to approach so closely that it was only a few hours away (at sublight speed and therefroe presumably very low technology!) before being detected by the Enterprise's sensors.


TNG Season 1, Ep# 10: "The Battle"
RIKER: The Picard Maneuver! Mister Data, what is the defense against that?
DATA: There is no defense, sir.
RIKER: Then devise one! Fast!
DATA: I have computed a possibility, Commander. Since even deep space contains trace gases, sir, a vessel in the Picard maneuver might seem to disappear, but our sensors could locate any sudden compression of those gases..

This links back to Balance of Terror in a fascinating way. According to Data, they have no countermeasure to determine which image of the Stargazer represents its true position. This means that the superluminal sensor systems of the Enterprise-D have no capability of countering barrage jamming, deception jamming or the use of decoys (for all its flub, the "Picard Manoeuver" is simply very crude deception jamming. In addition, their positional resolution is poor; they can locate ships with subspace sensors but not with enough accuracy to target them, which means that their sensors still suffer from the chronic limitations mentioned in the Balance of Terror. It seems very odd that in a century of technical development facing a known stealthed threat, nobody has addressed that problem.

We can pull a lot more examples of this but the general message is quite clear. Starfleet sensors have good range against targets moving at warp speeds but very limited range against sub-warp speed targets. They have poor positional data and extreme vulnerability to electronic warfare. A modern radio-electronic warfare unit would have a field day with them. Based on this and other examples, they'd take down all communications and sensor data.

Another interesting foreshadow here is the behavior of the bridge crew on E. Spock is treated with what can only be described as contemptuous disregard and, in the briefing room, Stiles gives an outburst that puts a new meaning to the word insubordination. In a real military organization, he would be in the brig so fast his feet wouldn't touch the floor; instead, he gets a mild "sit-down Mister". This is an early example of the vicious racist attitudes that permeate Star Trek and become more pronounced as the various series develop. In contrast, when a Romulan officer steps out of line, he's instantly disciplined and demoted. A useful indication that, in reality, the Federation are the bad guys and the Romulans are the good guys. A good example of the racist attitudes that permeate the Star Trek scripts.


TNG Season 1, Ep# 20: "Heart of Glory"
PICARD: Where are they now?
TASHA: They are with Worf on Deck Seventeen.
PICARD: Deck Seventeen?
TASHA: Yes, sir -- next to the auxiliary turbolift to the Battle Bridge. Shall I alert Lieutenant Worf?
PICARD: No. Send a security team to Deck Seventeen.
RIKER: Captain, you don't think Worf would allow them access to the Battle Bridge?
PICARD: Right now, Number One, we cannot assume anything.

Hang on a second; Worf is a commissioned officer and a graduate of Star Fleet Academy yet both Riker and Picard no longer trust Lieutenant (note at least two promotions under his belt) Worf, simply because he's with other Klingons and they assume that his loyalties are therefore in doubt. OK, assume you read in the newspaper that a local white police officer had discovered that two black suspects are in the custody of a black police officer, and had immediately acted on the assumption that the officer could no longer be trusted. You'd take a pretty dismal view of the white officer's fitness for duty. Viewed in that light Star Fleet attitudes are pretty grim, aren't they?

Balance of Terror is a great episode, not just because its a good story (albeit a copied one) but because if we look hard enough we can see the real ugly face of Star Fleet peering out from under the benign expression.

[Glom]

I haven't time to do these all at once so I'll try do fit them in as can.

There's no rush. :)


In my opinion this is one of the better (if not one of the best) TOS episodes.

This is one of my top ranked Classic episodes along with 'The Return of the Archons', 'A Taste of Armageddon', 'This Side of Paradise', 'The Devil in the Dark' and 'A Private Little War'.


As pointed out, the plot is stolen from "The Enemy Below" which was also something of a watermark in the depiction of two sides in a conflict.

The episode worked brilliantly because of the counterpoint with the Romulan Commander. Mark Lenard is a great actor. It's rare to see this kind of three dimensional portrayal of an enemy. Not even SG1 is that intelligent. If the enemy is a battle is shown, it's usually just for the purposes of making them seem either uncompromisingly evil and menacing such that you don't have sympathy (SG1) or pathetic nobodies that you don't care about on principles (VGR or ENT). One thing to note though is that DS9 occasionally would have episodes that tried to explore the Jem'Hadar side of things to some degree ('Rocks and Shoals')


This carries over into the TOS episode; the two sides (and the two Captains) are evenly matched.

The interesting thing was that they were evenly matched for different reasons. The Romulan Bird of Prey was quite primitive overall; it had limited speed and defensive capabilities and it's sensors weren't as good, but it had the ace in hole of the invisibility screen and the weapon o' mass destruction. The Enterprise by contrast was a better all round ship, with superior speed, sensors and defenses, but of course lacked anything particularly special. The two commanders had to work around the disadvantages of each of their ships and use the advantages.


This episode also discounts the claim that's been made here to the effect that a realistic depeiction of sensors and weapons couldn't be done because of the need for "dramatic tension". Balance of Terror with its sensor problems and the threat of the Romulan weapon drips dramatic tension. This shows that the "dramatic tension" argument is really a feeble excuse for lousy scriptwriting and poor direction/production.

I completely agree! I'd like one of those battles that aren't just special effects extravaganzas. You'll notice how there were very limited exterior shots, probably because of limited budget and technology, but it mattered not one slip of latinum. The portrayal of the crew under battle conditions was what made it dramatic. 'Starship Down' [DS9] did a similar thing, albeit not as well, but it was a good try. But 'Balance of Terror' also showed that episodes pitting strategic, military mind against strategic, military mind make for far greater battles than episodes that just try to awe us with effects and technobabble ways of killing the enemy.


Another interesting point; E is virtually disabled by a nuclear device (yield unknown but probably not that high).

This also gives us something that tends to be forgotten later on: weapons that can actually do damage.

[Doodler]

I dunno about taking out the starship with a nuke bit, it was detonated 100m from the hull. Any modern ship should have been vaporized by the energy release.

As for the demonstration of a three dimensional enemy commander, Star Trek TOS did it again later with Khan both in Space Seed and then later in an amazing reprise in STII which puts Ricardo Montalban's performance on par with Mark Leonard's in the same way the story itself using the starship duel in the nebula recreated the same tension as the standoff in the Neutral Zone. Christopher Lloyd's portrayal of Commander Kruge was another 3 dimensional and very well executed role of an enemy commander, both in his role as a tactician and a Klingon (I point out Kruge's reaction to his Targ dying as a prime example of this, both Lloyd's acting and the writing that went into Kruge, you could believe this character, there was more to him than orders barked at a subordinate.) God, those were the glory days. I miss them BAD...

Of the three I have to put STII as the best of them. It was the best balance of characterization and special effects of any of the bunch. It was a story first, sci fi movie second and it just clicked. I wish to the Great Bird himself that the current breed of writers would hold themselves to that standard.

[Stuart]

I dunno about taking out the starship with a nuke bit, it was detonated 100m from the hull. Any modern ship should have been vaporized by the energy release.

Depends on the yield; a one kiloton initiation has a fireball radius of around 30 meters and its 500 rem circle is 840 meters. Being in space, of course, a lot of nuclear effects won't happen. The hull is going to provide a lot of protection by absorbing gamma. On the other hand if we were to toss a 350 kiloton device (standard US strategic warhead), the fireball radius is 350 meters so a good chunk of the saucer just ceases to exist. The 500 rem circle is something like 2.6 kilometers. Now, if we go to five megatons (like one of the old city-busters, there are very few of these left now, the fireball radius is 820 meters so the E is vaporized.


God, those were the glory days. I miss them BAD.
Aye, that they were. How the mighty have fallen.

[wedgebert]

I dunno about taking out the starship with a nuke bit, it was detonated 100m from the hull. Any modern ship should have been vaporized by the energy release.

Depends on the yield; a one kiloton initiation has a fireball radius of around 30 meters and its 500 rem circle is 840 meters. Being in space, of course, a lot of nuclear effects won't happen. The hull is going to provide a lot of protection by absorbing gamma. On the other hand if we were to toss a 350 kiloton device (standard US strategic warhead), the fireball radius is 350 meters so a good chunk of the saucer just ceases to exist. The 500 rem circle is something like 2.6 kilometers. Now, if we go to five megatons (like one of the old city-busters, there are very few of these left now, the fireball radius is 820 meters so the E is vaporized.


God, those were the glory days. I miss them BAD.
Aye, that they were. How the mighty have fallen.

Actually, there wouldn't be a fireball in space A nuke in space would just be a giant flash of light along with a massive release of non-visible radiation.

A starship hull isn't going to help much against the radiation levels a nuke puts out (depending on yield of course). I might absorb a lot of the gamma radiation, but that's going to cause the hull itself to heat up and it can cause it to break apart as well.

I'd wager that a kiloton nuke going off 100 meters from your hull is going to cause serious problems to both the hull and the crew inside.

But if you want to use nukes in space, you're better off using bomb-pumped lasers. Those are weapons where a nuclear bomb goes off, and the effects are focused into a laser and directed at a target. They're one shot weapons, but are very powerful since you're not wasting power in a full sphere like a normal bomb. Plus they have a longer range.

[Stuart]

Actually, there wouldn't be a fireball in space A nuke in space would just be a giant flash of light along with a massive release of non-visible radiation. A starship hull isn't going to help much against the radiation levels a nuke puts out (depending on yield of course). I might absorb a lot of the gamma radiation, but that's going to cause the hull itself to heat up and it can cause it to break apart as well. I'd wager that a kiloton nuke going off 100 meters from your hull is going to cause serious problems to both the hull and the crew inside.

True; the primary killing system is the sleet of radiation the device produces. There was a lot of work done on the design of space-initiated nuclear devices back in the old days of Nike-Zeus. The designs used a lot of tricks to up the radiation yield at the expense of the blast and thermal effects. One of them was to wrap the device in gold foil. The "explosive" effects of an initiation in space are astonishingly limited; 100 meters probably would protect a reasonably heavily-constructed space ship from damage from a 1 kiloton initiation. Unless the warhead was heavily doped using tricks, I believe the hull would provide enough protection to limit radiation damage to the crew. In Balance of Terror, the nuclear device used was IIRC a scuttling charge. So it was probably a pretty conventional device.

By the way. most of the radioactive product from an initiation comes from debris being sucked into the fireball. That ain't going to happen much in space. We never really worried much about gamma. If blast and flash are going to reduce a victim to the size and appearance of a McDonalds hamburger, irradiating them as well isn't a productive use of resources. As a friend of mine put it, it isn't the explosion that kills you, its the fall to the bottom of the crater.

[RBG]

"Don't forget, Star Trek has Vulcan and Betazoid telepathy."


Example of Betazoid Empath telepathy:

Seething alien on screen.

Empath: "Captain, I sense that he is angry."

RBG

[Glom]

JONAS: Still, I'm usually a lot better at reading people.

CHEKOV: Major, why wasn't I told about the X-302?

JONAS: For example, it might not be obvious to some people, but this man is really upset.

Jonas is clearly Betazoid.

:lol:

[captain swoop]

snip

This episode also discounts the claim that's been made here to the effect that a realistic depeiction of sensors and weapons couldn't be done because of the need for "dramatic tension". Balance of Terror with its sensor problems and the threat of the Romulan weapon drips dramatic tension. This shows that the "dramatic tension" argument is really a feeble excuse for lousy scriptwriting and poor direction/production.

I disagree, this iws a perfect example of where the sensor deficiencies are completely a plot device to raise tension, if the sensors had been better then there goes the entire plot.

[Glom]

Let this thread live!

[captain swoop]

Let this thread live!


It's worse than that, It's dead Jim.

[Colt]

I remember this therad.. It's like a poltergeist. Good when making noise. :wink: -Colt

[Zamboni]

It's worse than that, It's dead Jim.

Spock: Live long and prosper...

I didn't read any of the posts in this thread so don't expect anything new or fresh from me.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Let this thread live!


It's worse than that, It's dead Jim.

Quick, you get its Tricorder.

I'll get its Wallet!

[Wingnut Ninja]

Hey, this thread just doesn't die, does it? Anyway, I thought I'd point out that


the Not-So-Great Machine of Epsilon III

sounds perfect for The Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy.

[Glom]

Getting back to the issue of the TR-116, O'Brien said that a projectile weapon was under research to be used in energy dampened environments (probably like the planet in 'Paradise' [DS9]), but it was abandoned in favour of regenerative phasers.

First, if you're in an energy dampening field, regenerative or not, the phaser won't work.

Second, what does it mean for a phaser to be regenerative. We know what regenerative shields mean, but phasers aren't known to loose power. The other explanation I can think of is one that violates the laws of thermodynamics The phaser never runs out of energy. Still, what do you expect?

But, clearly the TR-116 was under development for combat purposes, but for the reasons demonstrated by Stuart, it's crap! And why do they need to develop a projectile weapon? Just dust of the old records and use an M-16 or something. The arrogance of Starfleet is amazing. They never even think of using projectile weapons when it is shown that they are so much better.

[Zamboni]

What the...? Who brought this thread back up? Besides, there's another thread (or more) discussing projectile weapons vs energy weapons.

Regenerative phasers means rechargeable phasers; regular phasers use energy cartrige like current weapons.