Spammers

[Fraser]

Okay, I know we've been inundated with spammers in the last few weeks. Unfortunately, this is just the price of our rising popularity. Since the board is one of the larger forums on the Internet.

I've implemented a new feature for the moderators that lets us blow away all traces of a spammer in one click. It's easy, even fun to do this.

So if you're the first one to spot a spammer, just click the little red triangle at the top right hand side of the post to report them. One of the mods will swoop in within minutes and clean it up.

Let me know if you notice anything strange.

[Dragon Star]

Awesome, great move! I will be on the lookout...:shifty:

[Maksutov]

Okay, I know we've been inundated with spammers in the last few weeks. Unfortunately, this is just the price of our rising popularity. Since the board is one of the larger forums on the Internet.

I've implemented a new feature for the moderators that lets us blow away all traces of a spammer in one click. It's easy, even fun to do this.

So if you're the first one to spot a spammer, just click the little red triangle at the top right hand side of the post to report them. One of the mods will swoop in within minutes and clean it up.

Let me know if you notice anything strange.I've noticed a lot of strange stuff in the Conspiracy Theories and Against the Mainstream forums.

Oh, you mean as a result of the new anti-spammer functionality. Not yet.

An idea occurred to me as I was reading your post. Even though this is a "one click deletes all spammer traces" feature, it still takes a moderator to do the clicking. If there's no mod logged on to the BAUT BB, then the spam will stay up for however long it takes for one to log on.

It was proposed that some "regular" members be given the means to delete spam. Now some of the mods have made good points about giving regular members too much authority, expressing concerns about abuse, etc. On the other hand doing so would allow for near real-time deletion of the spam.

My idea is to follow through with the proposal, only have some applet running in the background that stores the deleted spam in a folder that can be reviewed by mods at their convenience. If this applet identifies who deleted each spam, then abuse or just plain mistakes would be easy to correct and any misidentified spam posts could be undeleted.

Just a thought about helping to expedite the removal of such obnoxious junk from the BAUT BB.

[Dragon Star]

Actually, that's a great idea, a way to trace it would be great...IF it were put into effect.

Also, if this is to be placed into effect, do it in private, not public as to who gains these abilities.

[The Supreme Canuck]

No, keep it open. It would be best for people to know who can do stuff like that, so they can be held accountable.

[Dragon Star]

No, that is what the software tracking is for, if everyone knows who has the ability then it defeats the purpose, and drops a lot more responsibility on them with other members to keep this place clean, which is a good thing until a mistake is made, and that makes problems. Keep it on the down low.:shhh:;)

[The Supreme Canuck]

Respectfully, I disagree. If someone is going to get the power to delete individual posts, I want to know who they are.

[Dragon Star]

What is the difference? Either way if they mess up they are delt with...

Say for example I was elected as one of five selected for this deletion ability and this is public, I am certainly not a highly respected member here, so people would probably have problems with me being part of this just because I make frequent reports...then the selections would be based off of popularity instead of usefulness...I can't agree with that.

[The Supreme Canuck]

First, BAUT has a tradition of open moderation. That's come in handy before, and continues to do so. It means that every member here knows that he or she is being treated fairly, as the process is open to all. You can see what the mods do.

Second, it's good for people to be able to object to an appointment. It allows for discussion as to why a person is worthy of the appointment or not. In the end, the best person for the job is generally selected. BAUT members will not select for popularity. They will select for usefulness. That said, if they do disagree with an appointment, they should be able to express that disapproval to the mods team. They can act on it, or not. It's their board. But if the selections are secret, that opportunity is lost, and so is the opportunity for the best appointment to be made.

[Frog march]

Are you talking about spam DS or posts/threads that just break the rules?

[Dragon Star]

Understood, but the fact is you don't know how many times I have reported spam nor I do you, so it is in fact based off of popularity.

[Dragon Star]

Are you talking about spam DS or posts/threads that just break the rules?

Strictly spam, anything more and your a moderator.

[The Supreme Canuck]

Understood, but the fact is you don't know how many times I have reported spam nor I do you, so it is in fact based off of popularity.

Granted, no one knows that. But the mods do know. Also, I see a big difference between reporting a post, and deleting it. One is advising. The other is taking action.

Now, the way I see this working out is having the mods choose people who they know are effective, and then announcing it. If anyone thinks that an appointment is unacceptable, they can then voice why they think it is so. If it is something along the lines of "he breaks rules consistantly" or "she has PMed me saying she would delete all my posts if she could," then there may be cause for concern. While objections may indeed be based on popularity (though I do not believe that members here would stoop so low), the final appointments are made by the mods. What's so bad about giving them information that would allow them to possibly make a better decision?

[Dragon Star]

I believe we have come to an agreement dear friend.:D

[The Supreme Canuck]

Hm. Excellent. That worked out quite nicely, I think.

:)

[Dragon Star]

So, erm, what do you think Fraser? Mods?

[Frog march]

I think that it is important that a team of spam deleters should have a name like "The Spamrammers" or something.

[Dragon Star]

Effectiveness first, technicalities later.:D

[mickal555]

I think it's a great idea, all too often I see spam when I'm on and even though it's 7pm where I am, mods don't arrive for a couple of hours sometimes...

I can't imagine how effective that spam would seem to spammers....

[Fraser]

This would be my preference. I'm happy to trust members and give them that ability. Unfortunately, the software doesn't seem to be able to give members the ability to delete other posts and move them. Only moderators. There's a new version of the software coming out with a whole new set of features, including a shared trash bin where deleted stuff can be reviewed.

Until then, I think you'll agree that we're pretty responsive with the SPAM, and this solution makes it as painless as possible to implement for the moderators.

[antoniseb]

Another possibility would be to look for a new moderator who is typically awake and has his email up during the least moderated hours from 0400UT to 1000UT.

[Dragon Star]

This would be my preference. I'm happy to trust members and give them that ability. Unfortunately, the software doesn't seem to be able to give members the ability to delete other posts and move them. Only moderators. There's a new version of the software coming out with a whole new set of features, including a shared trash bin where deleted stuff can be reviewed.

Really? I know other forums that have the ability to give members moderator abilities that are selected by Administrators...and I would think there is a way around it.

I think it works like this, you make a member a moderator, then you can restrict the abilities they have, including restricting them from seeing certain sections of the private sections of the forum. Look into it and see if you can't find something like a moderator-restriction that lets you do control those things, I will poke around Google and see if I can dig up a mod or something...

[Kaptain K]

Come on! I see spam. I report it. It goes away. No big deal. Have we become such an "instant gratification" society that we can't wait for, at most, a couple of hours for a mod to delete spam?

Reminds me of a panel in Family Circus:
Jeffey: "I wish we really could nuke it. The microwave takes too long!"

[Frog march]

I quite like having the odd bit of spam around, it give it a kind of urban quality to the place.

[Dragon Star]

If the spammers know without a doubt that as soon as they post spam that it is going to disappear without any effect, why would they waste their time? They will just move on to the next forum...

Example: Country A attacks another country B, country B then instantly annihilates country A without a second thought, who else is going to bother to even try it?

[Frog march]

If the spammers know without a doubt that as soon as they post spam that it is going to disappear without any effect, why would they waste their time? They will just move on to the next forum...

Example: Country A attacks another country B, country B then instantly annihilates country A without a second thought, who else is going to bother to even try it?

come on dragon star, I think annihilating another country over a bit of spam is going too far.;)

[Dragon Star]

Behold the power of processed random meat.:razz:

[antoniseb]

If the spammers know without a doubt that as soon as they post spam that it is going to disappear without any effect, why would they waste their time? They will just move on to the next forum...

With the spam-bots, they don't care. We're in their database, and they have no reason to remove us. Spammers sell there services based on multiples of 1000 forums that they post the message to.

[Dragon Star]

Ah, the bots, hadn't thought of that.:doh:

[Nereid]

So what happens in unmoderated, or lightly moderated, fora? Do they sink into the black hole at the heart of the server, under the crushing weight of all the spam? Do the members of a spammed-to-death forum rush around looking for an un-spammed forum (like BAUT)?

[Maksutov]

Come on! I see spam. I report it. It goes away. No big deal. Have we become such an "instant gratification" society that we can't wait for, at most, a couple of hours for a mod to delete spam?

Reminds me of a panel in Family Circus:
Jeffey: "I wish we really could nuke it. The microwave takes too long!"It has nothing to do with instant gratification. Instead a lot of spam contains or has links to some really raunchy stuff. If it's up for a couple hours, then there's a good chance members of the group mentioned in Rule 3 will see it or have the site blocked by a filter.
3. Language

No cursing. This goes along with being polite. This website is read by a lot of kids, including young school kids who want to learn about astronomy, space, and space exploration. The Universe is a marvelous place, full of beauty and wonder, and if you despoil it by using bad language you will quickly invoke the ire of the administrators and moderators. Think of the language used on TV during an after-school special and you'll get the idea. Deliberately misspelled bad words, or replacing key letters with different characters or numbers will not be tolerated. Same goes with adult topics -- talk about them somewhere else. If you do need to post something risqué, stick with arcane scientific terminology.

This includes avatars: since you can upload an image to be your avatar, use care in choosing that image. The numerous spam posts that violate this rule need to be deleted immediately.

[Gillianren]

I was on an undermoderated forum once, but I don't recall really seeing spam, just the same threads started over and over again by newbies. Could've been the software; it was pretty primitive given that this was just about a year ago.

I'd also like to point out that, to me at least, it seems that popularity around here is largely based on ability. This isn't universally true, but let's face it, the reason ToSeek (for example) is so popular is the whole "here's 57 things a day that you might be interested in" that we usually are.

[Dragon Star]

Agreed, but people do hold a lot of hidden grudges on this forum...but I guess that's not really the problem at the moment, I was unable to find anything along the lines of mods to allow an admin to restrict the abilities of a moderator, looks like a new moderator is in the wind...

[antoniseb]

Thanks guys, that new spam tool is nice. Good hunting.

[Kaptain K]

Speaking only for myself, spam is just a minor nuisance. On a forum, I just report it. In my e-mail, I just delete it (and immediately empty the deleted file folder, just in case). Why anybody responds to spam is beyond my comprehension, but I guess enough do to make it worthwhile to the spammers.

[umop ap!sdn]

Expanding on what Dragon Star said, I would be surprised if vBulletin didn't have the capability to set up a special member group that can move threads and see a custom hidden forum. Select members could move spam threads into said forum, out of sight of everyone else, where they would sit pending moderator deletion.

But I admit I have no idea whether the permissions have enough granularity to grant only the moving of threads, nor how much logging takes place in these circumstances.

[Fraser]

You can set moderators and super moderators, but you can't create partial-mods. I'll check out the features of the next version, there are some pretty cool functions available. I'll also take a look at the plugins. I wouldn't be surprised if someone hasn't created this already.

[Dragon Star]

I have talked to a few admin and they say that they would be surprised if they didn't have the feature...so it's probably out there, but finding it is a whole other can of worms.

[suntrack2]

I don't know the definition of "spammer" yet. what are the disadvantage of "spamming". (I really don't know hence asking here).

[Frog march]

I joined another forum the other day and they got to new registrations while I was there, they didn't post spam but they had spam links as there "home webaddress" and as their "interest".

[Gillianren]

I don't know the definition of "spammer" yet. what are the disadvantage of "spamming". (I really don't know hence asking here).

"Spam" is the term for undesired e-mail/posts on the forum; a "spammer" is one who produces spam. Apparently, the Hormel company (who make the canned meat product called "SPAM") has kind of caved on the subject, because people aren't going to stop misusing their product name. On the internet, spam is advertising.

[ToSeek]

We moderators now have a big yellow-on-blue button just to the left of the edit button on each post that says "Spam". I'm getting used to it, but it first it looks as if the system doesn't think much of anyone's posts. ;)

[R.A.F.]

As I've always suspected...the Mods do have the best "toys". :)

[Dragon Star]

Rub it in ToSeek...rub it in. :p

[ToSeek]

I just noticed that posts by admins and moderators lack this same button. ;)

[Kaptain K]

R H I P

[Dragon Star]

I just noticed that posts by admins and moderators lack this same button. ;)

Ok, now your pushing it.:D

Holey shnikies, congratulations on 18 grand ToSeek!:clap:

[ToSeek]

Ok, now your pushing it.:D

Holey shnikies, congratulations on 18 grand ToSeek!:clap:

Thank you. I want to ban somebody just to celebrate. ;)

[Dragon Star]

Hey, if you give me permission to make another account for the sole purpose of posting spam, I will give you that opportunity!:lol:

I can't believe you have like seven times as many post as I do, I feel like I have been here for years now and I only have 2 thousand something.:lol:

[ToSeek]

Your join date is officially last October - your posts-per-day is only slightly less than mine.

I did ban a spammer already this morning, so we'll count that as the celebration. It's cool just pressing that button, confirming it, and watching as they vanish.

[Kaptain K]

I have been here for years and I only have a little over 4300 posts. Of course, I can always claim quality trumps quantity! ;)

[Frog march]

does the "SPAM" button give you a "are you sure? Y/N"?

[Roy Batty]

Whether it does or not I'm sure a lovely Viking chorus sound effect is invoked... :)

[Dragon Star]

Your join date is officially last October - your posts-per-day is only slightly less than mine.

Yea, but my posts consist of practically nothing, so I don't count them.

[ToSeek]

does the "SPAM" button give you a "are you sure? Y/N"?

Yes, it comes up with a whole new screen of options that you then have to confirm. Fortunately, one accidental click isn't going to banish one of you guys forever.

[Dragon Star]

*snicker* Too bad for you, eh?:D

"But, it was an accident!"

[ToSeek]

ToSeek, you got some splainin' to do!

[Tobin Dax]

I can't believe you have like seven times as many post as I do, I feel like I have been here for years now and I only have 2 thousand something.:lol:

That's just because he spams the board with all those news stories. ;)

[Captain Kidd]

I can't believe you have like seven times as many post as I do, I feel like I have been here for years now and I only have 2 thousand something.:lol:He didn't get his very own Wikipedia entry (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toseek) for nothing. ;)

[Roy Batty]

Somebody needs to update that Wiki entry to 'just made his 18,000th' post... & darn quick too else that'll be out of date! ;)

[Dragon Star]

That's just because he spams the board with all those news stories. ;)

Yea, and all that smart talk as well! What kind of forum does he think this is?;)

[Maksutov]

That's just because he spams the board with all those news stories. ;)You forgot what the Ministry of Love says:


SPAM IS CONTENT!

CONTENT IS SPAM!

WE HAVE ALWAYS BEEN AT WAR WITH OCEANIA!

OUR TERROR ALERT LEVEL HAS ALWAYS BEEN YELLOW OR HIGHER!

http://www.geekandproud.net/terror/terror.jpg (http://www.bautforum.com/%3Ca%20href=)

WE ALL LOVE BIG BROTHER!

[Maksutov]

Remember,

http://img54.imageshack.us/img54/6683/19848yp.th.jpg (http://img54.imageshack.us/my.php?image=19848yp.jpg)

[Swift]

We moderators now have a big yellow-on-blue button just to the left of the edit button on each post that says "Spam". I'm getting used to it, but it first it looks as if the system doesn't think much of anyone's posts. ;)
Does the button look something like this...
http://cache.boston.com/images/bostondirtdogs//Headline_Archives/panic-button.jpg ;)

[ToSeek]

More like this (click to see it full-sized):

2934

[Doodler]

Ah, the bots, hadn't thought of that.:doh:

Very very little, if any, spam is someone actually at the keyboard anymore. You just cannot get the volume of postage out of flesh and blood fingers that you can a human being.

It might seem like an annoyance, but has there ever been any consideration given to a verification code on posting? Something minor, like four or five characters. Stick it on the log in, just to try and stymie a few of the bots on the way in. Some might get through by people who's computers are cookiefied and compromised by spyware, but might cut the percentages down, oh, to a quarter or less of what they are now?

[Captain Kidd]

More like this (click to see it full-sized):

2934
Looks more like 5 pam to me. :)

Don't we have a visual verification code or something so that spam bots can't register?

[Maksutov]

More like this (click to see it full-sized):

2934
http://img71.imageshack.us/img71/1852/toseek5lj.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Kirk: Well,...First Officer,...that looked...nice, but......every...time I clicked on it...to...delete some...outrageous......baloney in the CT forum,......it...didn't...work! (long pause) Scotty?
Scotty: Och, Captain!
Kirk: How about fixing...this Spock button that...doesn't...work?
Scotty: I'm afrrraid I canna do that, what with the engines being overrrtaxed and the dilithium crrrystals being worrrn by Uhurrra, in the prrrettiest places, ach, sucha lovely...
Kirk: OK, Mr. Scott. thank you for...trying. Mr. Chekov?
Chekov: Yes, keptin.
Kirk: I need you to go to engineering and capture some photons from the antimatter reactor.
Chekov: Yes, keptin.
Kirk: My title is Captain, not keptin.
Chekov: Yes, sir.
Kirk: Keep it up officer and you'll wind up on a...well, you know the term...
Chekov: Yes I do sir.
Kirk: Say it!
Chekov: Oh no, sir.
Kirk: Say...it...!
Chekov: I'd vind up on a nu-cle-ur wessel.
Kirk: Ah, that's...better!
Chekov: Tank you, keptin! (runs off bridge)
Uhura: Captain, I've got a subspace transmission coming in, from Starfleet!
Kirk: Put it on the big TV over at the front of the set.
Uhura: Just a minute Captain. My panties are riding up again. Darn that Gene, he can never leave them alone. OK, there's your signal.
Starfleet: Keptin Kirk?
Kirk: (wincing) Y...e...s?
Starfleet: Sorry, sir, but you've been preempted.
Kirk: What...is..."pre...empted...?"
Starfleet: This rerun of a rerun of a rerun of an original series that was canceled back in 1969 is being preempted so the networks can broadcast a new movie by a writer, director, and producer they've never heard of.
Kirk: Who....is...that? KAHN!!!!????!!!!
Starfleet: No, it's a move called THX 1138 by some guy named George Lucas...

[Swift]

Alternative ending

Uhura: Captain, I've got a subspace transmission coming in, from Starfleet!
Kirk: Put it on the big TV over at the front of the set.

<switch POV to big TV>
<technocolor static is replaced with video of Star Fleet Admiral>
<Admiral opens mouth to speak, when screen is filled with pop-up announcments>

Voice-over 1: Would you like to talk to hot single female humanoids who want to communicate just with you? Text "hot1" on sub-space channel 12".
Voice-over 2: Great investment opportunities in dilithium crystal mines!!!!!! Make billions in gold-pressed latinum from your own data terminal!!!!
Voice-over 3: Venus Drug, Brekkian plague cure, Jem’Hader White, Viagra, all without a Chief Medical Officers orders!!.
Kirk: Dang spammers, Uhura, signal the mods that we need some bannings and we need them now!

[Maksutov]

WTG, Swift!

:clap::clap::clap::clap::clap:

Dang, my laugh muscles are hurting so bad!!

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/froehlich/a065.gif

http://www.cosgan.de/images/smilie/froehlich/a080.gif

[Nicolas]

In the meantime, I have reported 3 Babbling spammers in one minute :)

[antoniseb]

It's been a busy night/morning for spam here.

[peter eldergill]

Another one in Babbling....

Pete

Gone already...well done!

[Van Rijn]

A heads up: (http://www.universetoday.com/) As a couple of other folks noticed there was a confusing new thread/post by a first time user with a repeated spam link in the punctuation. (http://www.badastronomy.com/) In hindsight it was obvious, (http://www.universetoday.com/) but I missed it when I glanced at the post. (http://www.badastronomy.com/)

I've edited this post to add example punctuation/links. (http://www.bautforum.com/) They're somewhat self-referential. :)

[Frog march]

I saw the funny shaped punctuation marks but thought nothing of it. They look like this , (http://www.google.com/)

[Nicolas]

I've also seen that but overlooked the link :)

[Maksutov]

I saw the funny shaped punctuation marks but thought nothing of it. They look like this , (http://www.google.com/)
I've also seen that but overlooked the link :)Same here. Sake and spam, what a waste of good liquid!

[Maksutov]

Thanks, antoniseb, for cleaning things up!

[Tog]

Are we posting in the spam thread once we report them? Would that cut down on multiple reports, or just cause more problems?

[Maksutov]

Are we posting in the spam thread once we report them?Not necessarily. That last one just needed to be part of an alert re semi-hidden porn link coding.
Would that cut down on multiple reports, or just cause more problems?TTBOMK multiple reports shouldn't bother the mods.

[Tog]

Okay. I wondered becasue the three that I saw tonight all had replies. I thought maybe I missed something.:)

[Maksutov]

Okay. I wondered becasue the three that I saw tonight all had replies. I thought maybe I missed something.:)One was mistaken by me as a legitimate post. The other was replied to in order to have fun with it until a mod showed up to delete it. The third one I don't recall.

[ToSeek]

I love checking my email in the morning and finding that half of it is reports from BAUT.... ;)

[Roy Batty]

You need to get out more, to ah, um, conventions & things. Oh, nevermind. :D

[Maksutov]

OK, I checked the code on this one


Hello admin!
Veri good info!
Good content, eautiful design, thank !and didn't find anything nasty. What did I miss?

Betcha it's something embedded in the script...

[Frog march]

I think it is like the other one with the link to Google, it is just someone taking their software for a test drive. Well that's my bet.

[ToSeek]

I'm leaving those alone for now.

[Gillianren]

I wish there were some sort of button we could use so we didn't have to enter text when reporting spam.

[Van Rijn]

Well, it doesn't need to be much. I used to get fancy, but now my comment is usually something like "Porn spam" or "internet pharmacy ad."

[Frog march]

I had an idea that some spambots would go around making linkless posts and then some weeks later another spambot would go around editing those posts and then inserting links. Is that possible?

[Gillianren]

Well, it doesn't need to be much. I used to get fancy, but now my comment is usually something like "Porn spam" or "internet pharmacy ad."

Actually, I tend to write "Viking!" Though sometimes, it's "obscene Viking," "religious Viking," or "yet another Viking."

[Frog march]

those spammers have got some Gaul.;)

edit-Astrix the gaul

[Dragon Star]

I keep it simple. "Spam" Because I am cool like that...

[Van Rijn]

I keep it simple. "Spam" Because I am cool like that...

Uh, right. Cool as the core of a supernova . . . Nay. Rather, cool as the primordial universe . . . :cool:

[Tog]

I had an idea that some spambots would go around making linkless posts and then some weeks later another spambot would go around editing those posts and then inserting links. Is that possible?

Well Bot 2 would need the same user name as bot 1 to be able to edit, so it might work if it just came back and edited the first post. But then, would that pop it back to the current list? If it's a week old not many are likely to run across it.

My reports are usually a description like ad spam of it's beasic, but for any that saw the Tibet tourism ad, it was really cool. Still spam, but very attractive, articulate, and informative spam. It even mentioned Venus. So it was almost on topic spam if there is such a thing. It got a bigger write up.

[AitchJay]

So what happens in unmoderated, or lightly moderated, fora? Do they sink into the black hole at the heart of the server, under the crushing weight of all the spam? Do the members of a spammed-to-death forum rush around looking for an un-spammed forum (like BAUT)?

Yes, they do. :o

I found this forum by spending more time at bablog because my favourite badscience forum got spammed to death. Literally.

Once the software was upgraded from xdforum to php it got much better.

Don't think I haven't grown to like you all, I just have to share my time.. :D

[triplebird]

...what happens in unmoderated, or lightly moderated, fora?

You get...

SPAM in the back of my car, SPAM every place that you are...



With apologies to Weird Al. :)

[Dragon Star]

Uh, right. Cool as the core of a supernova . . . Nay. Rather, cool as the primordial universe . . . :cool:

*Snicker*

Yep, I can pull off hot and cool at the same time, now that is talent. :razz:

[Maksutov]

Yes, they do. :o

I found this forum by spending more time at bablog because my favourite badscience forum got spammed to death. Literally.

Once the software was upgraded from xdforum to php it got much better.

Don't think I haven't grown to like you all, I just have to share my time.. :DYou know, at one time I thought php stood for phil plait. ;)

Which reminds me about something that's always caused me to wonder:

If the BA goes to a full-service restaurant that is offering an "all-you-can-eat" special, when the waitress comes over and says, "Hi, I'm Vampira and I'll be your server tonight.", does the BA point at the special in the menu, then pick up the largest piece of dinnerware, hand it to the waitress, and say, "Phil Plait!"?

:think:

[Halcyon Dayz]

If the BA goes to a full-service restaurant that is offering an "all-you-can-eat" special, when the waitress comes over and says, "Hi, I'm Vampira and I'll be your server tonight.", does the BA point at the special in the menu, then pick up the largest piece of dinnerware, hand it to the waitress, and say, "Phil Plait!"?

:think:
* groan *

[Frog march]

no that's the BadGastonomer.

[Maksutov]

no that's the BadGastonomer.LOL! Good one! :clap::clap::clap:

[Nicolas]

You know, at one time I thought php stood for phil plait. ;)

:D

That one would be suitable for the "when I was a kid" thread.

Except for the fact that you're really, really old. ;)

[antoniseb]

I suppose spam is a classic example of bad gastonomy.

[Maksutov]

I suppose spam is a classic example of bad gastonomy.If properly prepared, then before and after. Part of the problem may be the "shingle" it's typically served on.

[mickal555]

Well Bot 2 would need the same user name as bot 1 to be able to edit, so it might work if it just came back and edited the first post. But then, would that pop it back to the current list? If it's a week old not many are likely to run across it.

snip...


But it will still point this web-site to the page and bost it's page rank...

[Lance]

Exactly.

The spammers often don't care if you actually read their posts. They just want the links back to their sites on as many pages as they can so it boosts their Google rankings.

[Frog march]

I have read that the more popular your site(and the more links to your site) the more often that google's spiders will crawl your site. If you have a very popular site like, I suppose, CNN there would always be crawlers around; BAUT might rate well enough to have crawlers every few minutes but that would be enough for spam that was left up for half an hour.

[Lance]

Believe it or not, but even IRU (http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/Forums/) has GoogleBots crawling around it most of the time. Not always, but almost always.

[Dragon Star]

Believe it or not, but even IRU (http://www.illuminati-r-us.com/Forums/) has GoogleBots crawling around it most of the time. Not always, but almost always.

Yea, I notice them quite often, but there is very little/no spam there thankfully.

[Dragon Star]

Ok, I think I just might have got an idea...but let me ask this first.

Every time I sign into my account, my IP address is recorded correct?

[ToSeek]

Ok, I think I just might have got an idea...but let me ask this first.

Every time I sign into my account, my IP address is recorded correct?

Yes, and we moderators can see the IP address any post was entered from.

[Dragon Star]

Perfect!

How about this: We make one account and give it moderator status, then select a few members that will be able to access the account under any circumstance that would require it, but only for certain actions (removing spam exc...) Because as ToSeek stated, it can be tracked as to who and at what times and what actions were applied with which members, preventing any slip up's. There is only one problem with the idea as I see it and that is that it would give the select members the ability to see the private area's, but I believe that Fraser can prevent this, but I am not familiar with phpBB...other then that I think it could work.

What do you think?

[HenrikOlsen]

Familiarity with phpbb is irrelevant, the board uses vBulletin.

The problem with using one account for multiple users is that they won't get the notifications when others report spam unless they're logged in as that user.
Additionally, I doubt the system is coded for working well with multiple people logged in to the same account at the same time.

[Tog]

Guildportal is a system that set up complete websites for games. They have 5 levels of permission settings, almost all of which are customizable. Super-admins are the only ones that can promote members and configure the other settings, but everything else from forum moderation to page layout can be set to any other level. You can also have people that are not members of that particualr site act as forum mods for specific forums. This is a free site for online games. It makes me wonder if something similar is available for a dedicated forum like this.

and right now would actually be a great time to have it...:mad:

[Nicolas]

The Private Area of this board, that's the room with the lush plants in the corners, the room orchestra, leather seats, mini bar and all the women, right? ;)

[antoniseb]

The Private Area of this board, that's the room with the lush plants in the corners, the room orchestra, leather seats, mini bar and all the women, right? ;)

Close, it's where mods can talk about religion, politics, adult topics, and make ad hom attacks. Mostly these days, it is a lot of posts about specific spam and trolls, and a few people who are too slowly learning the polite customs of BAUT.

[Nicolas]

"Is this Spam, ma'm?" 101

When you see a post that might be spam, you can check the following items:

*is the user's registration date the same date as his first post?
*is this his only post?
*does the post contain no text specifically pointing to BAUT or its topics, so only things like "nice forum you have here!"?
*if you search the post content on google, does that give many hits from other forums where it is also the first post by a member?
*Has the member left open most personal details in his profile?
*Are the details he did fill in seemingly inconsistent with his posting style?
*is the post located in BABBling?


If the answer to most of these questions is "yes", you most probably are seeing spam.

Do not reply to it in any way, just hit the red triangle and tell the mods in a short message you think it is spam.

Spam does not need to contain a link or strange message. Lots of spam are just spambot tests and the like.

(here's what you wanted to have in this thread antoniseb :))

[antoniseb]

Spam does not need to contain a link or strange message. Lots of spam are just spambot tests and the like.

Some spam is simply to get the alleged poster's name onto as many forums as possible to increase some Google parameter.

[Argos]

What about giving secret powers to posters? I mean, everytime someone clicked the spam report button the post could be immediately sent to an area where the mods could examine it and make a decision. I think that almost everytime someone bothers reporting a spam the thread most likely does deserve going to the trash bin.

[ToSeek]

I've suggested that all first-time posts, especially if they start a new thread, be required to be approved by a moderator before appearing, but Fraser is concerned about discouraging new posters. But I think 99% of these are spam, so this approach (IMHO) would be worth it.

[antoniseb]

My recent experience is that about 85% are spam, but the point is still valid. So many forums are getting spammed that this kind of procedure is getting to be standard issue.

[Tinaa]

There is no "undo" when we hit the spam button, so we are very careful about who gets it!

[Tog]

About haow many get reported from members that turn out NOT to be spam? (Just curoius to see how well we do).

[ToSeek]

About haow many get reported from members that turn out NOT to be spam? (Just curoius to see how well we do).

I don't think I've seen any messages reported as spam that weren't. If there are, they're few and far between.

[Dragon Star]

Familiarity with phpbb is irrelevant, the board uses vBulletin.

You knew what I meant.:p


The problem with using one account for multiple users is that they won't get the notifications when others report spam unless they're logged in as that user.

The whole point is for the selected members too be able to deal with it on sight, which is faster then notification while using the new posts feature, as many of us do. Otherwise your just making another moderator, but the way I see it is 5 members can cover a lot more time and ground then one moderator.




Additionally, I doubt the system is coded for working well with multiple people logged in to the same account at the same time.

I see no problem with it, I can have two seprate windows open at the same time on one account, link to two different places simultaniously and I will get a result with both windows.

[HenrikOlsen]

I see no problem with it, I can have two seprate windows open at the same time on one account, link to two different places simultaniously and I will get a result with both windows.
That's still only one session, with the same cookies for both.

To test it you'd have to either use two machines, or eg. FireFox and IE at the same time.

[Frog march]

what about first posts by new members only have to be checked by a mod if they contain a link?

[Nicolas]

As said, a lot of recent spam does not contain a link, as it are tests or google word rank upcrankers :).

Today, we had a new poster who fell in my 101 Spam course criterions except for the contents of his post (which were related to the topic of this board) and linked to that the google hit test, and the forum in which his post was placed. So we should quarantaine possible spam if we do something automatically, certainly not delete. If that were the case, we would have lost a genuine member today :).

[cjl]

That's still only one session, with the same cookies for both.

To test it you'd have to either use two machines, or eg. FireFox and IE at the same time.

I've done that many times - sometimes I have a window open in each firefox and IE on both of my comps (4 different simultaneous sessions in total). Never had a problem...

[Dragon Star]

My point exactly...

[Frog march]

I think I will just make a test,

testgooglecrawlers

see how long it takes before this word gets a BAUT hit on google.

[HenrikOlsen]

I just tried googling for testgooglecrawlers, it didn't find any yet.

[Frog march]

Your search - testgooglecrawlers - did not match any documents

no hit at 07:19bst


edit:snap!!

[Frog march]

still no hit

[Dragon Star]

The crawlers have seen it already more then likely, but it has to be entered into a quite large database first.

[Maksutov]

Well, it seems the least a few regular members should be able to do is put spammers and their posts on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!

Keeps the board clean all the time, makes life easier for the mods, and of course maintains Omega House as the most prestigious, elitist frat.

[Dragon Star]

Yea, but going about it is not as easy as it sounds, still haven't quite figured out how it could be done...other then the village bicycle idea I had.

One account made for a few members to use to catch the spam.

It seems to be the easiest solution.

[Roy Batty]

Well, it seems the least a few regular members should be able to do is put spammers and their posts on DOUBLE SECRET PROBATION!

Keeps the board clean all the time, makes life easier for the mods, and of course maintains Omega House as the most prestigious, elitist frat.

I think we should put Neidermeyer on it, he's a sneaky little .... :D;)

[GDwarf]

I dislike the 'approving first post' policy, it has pros and cons, and I think that the cons outweigh the pros, you scare away members, they try to post, if the mods are all absent it can take hours, it places a further burden on anyone allowed to approve the post, etc. etc.

However, I have no idea how much spam this forum gets, as the mods are doing a great job (The most obvious sign of a good mod team is that you have no idea how bad the forum really is and can't even guess.), so I obviously can't give a fully-informed opinion.


*is the user's registration date the same date as his first post? Mine is
*is this his only post? For a time mine was
*does the post contain no text specifically pointing to BAUT or its topics, so only things like "nice forum you have here!"?
*if you search the post content on google, does that give many hits from other forums where it is also the first post by a member?
*Has the member left open most personal details in his profile? I do
*Are the details he did fill in seemingly inconsistent with his posting style? Quite possibly, I tend to be rather random in those fields, not wanting to give out personal info.
*is the post located in BABBling? That's where almost all of mine were
As you can see, telling spam from normal posts can be difficult at times, however, a good sign is if the post contains:
Nothing but links
One link with no explanation
One link and the explanation is the same as the thread title
A link that seems unrelated to the rest of the post

Now, that's hardly definitive, as there are legitimate posts that fail that test, but on this forum they're fairly rare.

[Dragon Star]

Also, post names that make no sense or relevancy to the forum, and contain symbols instead of words are growing more common it seems to me.

[Lance]

Moderators: How many reports (http://www.bautforum.com/images/buttons/report.gif clicks) does the average piece of spam generate?

The phpBB main support forum has an area where you can request a specific mod be written for you. I would guess vBulletin should have something similar.

Request a mod that will automatically quarantine any post that receives (for example) 3 spam reports from 3 different users (important) so the moderator team can review it and deal with it appropriately.

[Dragon Star]

If it can be requested, that would be awesome.

Thanks for the input, that could be our best bet.:D

[Frog march]

well here is their forum

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/

[antoniseb]

During the times when the mods are around there are usually zero to three alerts (abot 20% of the spams are caught by mods before anyone sees them). Late night spams often get three to seven alerts each during their few hours of being visible.

[Kesh]

I wonder if the board software supports a "Report Spam" button, separate from the normal Report Post button. Might make it easier, designating posts reported as Spam get sent to one specific group of moderators, while others deal with regular reported issues.

[ToSeek]

I don't think that would make a whole lot of difference - 95% of what we deal with are spam. The "real" complaints are few and far between.

[Dragon Star]

Yea, adding yet another button won't help much.

I have a question, which is better for you mods, reporting the post and not leaving a "reported" not along with it, or leaving a "reported" note so others know it's already reported?

[ToSeek]

I'd vote for sticking in a "reported" note. The last spam thread had five notifications associated with it.

[Dragon Star]

Yea, ok.

I thought the situation would go as fallows:

As long as a Mod is logged in, don't bother leaving a note.

But when one isn't, leave a note so their aren't thousands of notifications.

[Roy Batty]

I was going to ask about this myself. I seem to remember the BA saying once that it was more difficult to get rid of the OP if people went on & replied. But that was probably quite a long time ago (on a board s/w far far away) & now the mods have nice new gadgets to play with. Oooh look, shiny spam button!! :):)

[Dragon Star]

That's why I asked, I wasn't sure if they had to highlight each post or just the OP for removal/moving.

But I suppose it would still be better then getting 10 notifications for a spam either way you look at it.:)

[Roy Batty]

That's why I asked, I wasn't sure if they had to highlight each post or just the OP for removal/moving.

But I suppose it would still be better then getting 10 notifications for a spam either way you look at it.:)
Yep. I'll start adding a 'Reported' post like others have now then :)

[Dragon Star]

Same here. I suggest everyone reading this do the same to lighten the load on the mods.:)

[ToSeek]

We just have to click the "spam" button on the OP. The only real risk might be clicking the "spam" button on the "Reported" post by mistake, but fortunately there's an "Are you sure?" page before anything is actually done, and I at least am very careful to be sure that I'm sure before going ahead.

[Lance]

It's a shame the software isn't smart enough to only send a notice the first time a post is reported. Reply notifications are only sent the first time a thread is replied to, not every time, until you visit the thread again.

[Captain Kidd]

Isn't there a plug-in to do one of those enter the visual code anti-bot lines on registering? That'd keep at least the fully automated bots from registering.

[Fraser]

There is one of those visual code things. It's not bots registering, but actual humans... very desperate, low-paid humans.

[Dragon Star]

well here is their forum

http://www.vbulletin.com/forum/

I did a quick look through and found nothing of the sort that we were looking for. Darn.

Do you have any extra ideas Fraser? Also, what do you think about the single mod account for multiple users idea?

[01101001]

one of those enter the visual code anti-bot lines

"Captcha (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Captcha)"

[Captain Kidd]

Humans really? (That was probably said earlier and I missed it.) Huh, didn't think anybout could do enough volume by hand to make anything off of it.

[Roy Batty]

Well once they've manually registered with the boards, then i'm sure there are scripts they can use to automatically post to them.

[ToSeek]

There is one of those visual code things. It's not bots registering, but actual humans... very desperate, low-paid humans.

I used to think being a telemarketer was the bottom of the barrel. I may have to change my mind.

[Dragon Star]

Should I remind you that telemarketers can't be removed with a button? ;)

[Frog march]

Results 1 - 1 of about 2 for testgooglecrawlers

yay!!!, it only took 3days.

[Fraser]

Exactly. The largest forums are indexed by Google non-stop, so there's a real incentive to post SPAM links here. Any place that isn't so vigilant will let them slide a few days and give them backlinks that raise their profile in Google's index. I'm sure that if any large forum doesn't stay on top of the problem, it'll get bogged down by spam links in days, and rendered useless.

The next version of vbulletin has some interesting features that we might be able to use for our purposes, so I'm waiting until it's out of beta. If it doesn't do exactly what we want, then I'll try and get things customized.

I really like the "three report" vote idea, where if a certain number of members report a post/thread, it's taken offline for review by the moderators. I'll suggest that to the vbulletin team.

[Gillianren]

Should I remind you that telemarketers can't be removed with a button? ;)

No, but you can get rid of them all by going on the no-call list. You can't do that with spammers.

And, yeah, having worked telemarketing, the spammer job sounds a lot worse. Poor souls.

[Dragon Star]

My mom put us on that list...three times, and we get about 10 calls a day.

[Kaptain K]

I'm sure that if any large forum doesn't stay on top of the problem, it'll get bogged down by spam links in days, and rendered useless.
Like GLP which refuses to use vbulletin, php or any other commercial bulletin board software, because "it might have a back door". :rolleyes: Consequently there are times when there are page after page of spam. Often the site will be shut down while the mods have to manually clean the board. :doh: I'm glad I've (mostly) broken myself of that addiction!

[Frog march]

But with GLP it isn't spambots it is just some kid with nothing to do starting hundreds of nonsense threads just to spam up the board while the mods are asleep.

[peter eldergill]

On a (slightly) different topic, there is a post in the CT area by a single time poster who has posted the exact same post at another forum ( a math forum, Jay has provided a link to it) and I'm assuming at others as well

It's not an offensive post and is not advertising, but could it be considered spam? I asked in the thread if it's a bannable offence (not that I want him banned, I'm just curious)

Pete

[Kaptain K]

But with GLP it isn't spambots it is just some kid with nothing to do starting hundreds of nonsense threads just to spam up the board while the mods are asleep.
True...but spam is spam. It has the same effect, whatever the motivation.

[01101001]

On a (slightly) different topic, there is a post in the CT area by a single time poster who has posted the exact same post at another forum[...]
I presume it's A scientific approach to proving whether man landed on the moon - photogrammetric rec (http://www.bautforum.com/showthread.php?p=779793#post779793), if anyone else is curious.

[peter eldergill]

Yeah..sorry 'bout my laziness there

Pete

[antoniseb]

One or two related forums getting dupicate texts is not spam so much as just a minor infraction of forum rules. Real spam is sent to some multiple of a thousand forums at a time.

[Fraser]

On a (slightly) different topic, there is a post in the CT area by a single time poster who has posted the exact same post at another forum ( a math forum, Jay has provided a link to it) and I'm assuming at others as well

It's not an offensive post and is not advertising, but could it be considered spam? I asked in the thread if it's a bannable offence (not that I want him banned, I'm just curious)

Pete

I wouldn't consider that spamming at all. They're shopping around for the best community.

[ToSeek]

I wouldn't consider that spamming at all. They're shopping around for the best community.

Well, if they're here, they've found it, right? ;)

[peter eldergill]

Well, if they're here, they've found it, right?

I don't think he posted again, though

[Frog march]

I really like the "three report" vote idea, where if a certain number of members report a post/thread, it's taken offline for review by the moderators. I'll suggest that to the vbulletin team.

perhaps it should have the feature that only accounts that had been active for say 1week or 1month should be allowed to report in this way, this would prevent someone creating three sockpupets and then going around the forum deleting posts.

[Moose]

Perhaps something that only activates at a given user level? In our case, the "senior poster" level at 100 posts would be a pretty reasonable balance to keep socks from attacking that functionality, but still keeping the vast majority of good-standing members able to help out.

[Dragon Star]

Perhaps something that only activates at a given user level? In our case, the "senior poster" level at 100 posts would be a pretty reasonable balance to keep socks from attacking that functionality, but still keeping the vast majority of good-standing members able to help out.

Although it sounds good, that means anyone who lurks can't report even if they have been here for years, and that's not fair.

I say a month is a reasonable amount of time. What would be best is if they could still have the ability to report, but it not count toward the 3 reports number for removal. But this would be irrelevant if it was kept on the DL, that way new members wouldn't know about the ability.

[antoniseb]

I have a request for the spam-spotters. Please don't post in the spam thread telling everyone else that it is reported. On the face of it, this seems like a *very* useful thing to do, and once we get this all sorted out, we may ask for you to do it again, but there was an error in the anti-spam tool that ended up putting Frog March into a partially banned state. He had posted a "reported" post in that thread, which doubtless has something to do with how this error banned him. I'm asking this as a precaution.

[Dragon Star]

I have a request for the spam-spotters. Please don't post in the spam thread telling everyone else that it is reported. On the face of it, this seems like a *very* useful thing to do, and once we get this all sorted out, we may ask for you to do it again, but there was an error in the anti-spam tool that ended up putting Frog March into a partially banned state. He had posted a "reported" post in that thread, which doubtless has something to do with how this error banned him. I'm asking this as a precaution.

Ouch, ok, sure thing. Thanks for the heads up. :)

[Roy Batty]

:eek: I've done a few 'reported' posts ever since this (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=781154&postcount=149) came up earlier in this thread.
Will just go back to directly reporting the spam until I hear differently now.

Sounds like a rampant anti-spam AI has been unleashed... :)

[Tensor]

:eek: I've done a few 'reported' posts ever since this (http://www.bautforum.com/showpost.php?p=781154&postcount=149) came up earlier in this thread.
Will just go back to directly reporting the spam until I hear differently now.

Sounds like a rampant anti-spam AI has been unleashed... :)

I reported the same post as Frog March (probably before him as his reported post wasn't there at the time). I thought about putting a reported post in there. Looks like it's a good thing I didn't.

[antoniseb]

I don't know why the anti-spam tool choked this time. I'm sure it was just a low-probability fluke. Still, it is not zero probability.

[Fraser]

Yeah, from this point on, don't put a "Post Reported" message into the same thread as the SPAM. We don't mind getting multiple reports, they're easy to deal with. I don't want any valued members getting accidently banned and deleted. In this case it put Frog March into a strange limbo, so I'm thinking it's a bug with the deletion utility... sigh. :-(

[Roy Batty]

He's still not completely all back, when I click on his profile I get a prohibited to look at it message:

Roy Batty, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

[antoniseb]

He's still not completely all back, when I click on his profile I get a prohibited to look at it message:

Roy Batty, you do not have permission to access this page. This could be due to one of several reasons:

1. Your user account may not have sufficient privileges to access this page. Are you trying to edit someone else's post, access administrative features or some other privileged system?
2. If you are trying to post, the administrator may have disabled your account, or it may be awaiting activation.

I (with moderator privilege) get the same message.

[ToSeek]

Me, too.

[Dragon Star]

I don't want any valued members getting accidentally banned and deleted.
Oh, well in that case I can keep on labeling, eh? :razz: :D

[Fraser]

Okay, repaired the forum database and I think that fixed Frog March's public profile:
http://www.bautforum.com/member.php?u=5144

Anyone not able to see it?

[Frog march]

I seem to be able to post now.. so no more 'report' posts then.

[Fraser]

Phew. Welcome back. :-)

[ToSeek]

I seem to be able to post now.. so no more 'report' posts then.

Consider it the moral equivalent of juggling chainsaws. ;)

[Swift]

I seem to be able to post now.. so no more 'report' posts then.
So, now that you have had this near-banning experience, can you tell us what it was like on the other side? Was there a bright light and celestial music? :D

[antoniseb]

I seem to be able to post now.. so no more 'report' posts then.

Thanks for being easy-going about all this.

[Frog march]

perhaps people could still post 'reported' in a spam thread, but the moderators could have to delete all non-spam posts before deleting the thread, then the software wouldn't get confused.

[antoniseb]

That could work. Though that means that moderators get another step.

[Dragon Star]

It all depends on what the effects of having lots of SPAM reports are VS. deleting reported posts.

So, which is harder?

[ToSeek]

I'd prefer multiple spam reports to having to do the extra work - all the spam reports do is clog my inbox, but they're easy to deal with.

[Dragon Star]

Alright, you have at least 2 sitting in your box now. :D

[Frog march]

I thought the paypal advertising spam was a protection raket spam, "we keep advertising", I thought that would be scary.

[Dragon Star]

Gah, we are at SPAM war!

Arm ye report buttons!

[Frog march]

now maha vailo has put a 'reported' post on the ad spam. OH dear.

[Dragon Star]

I PM'ed him and Nowhere Man both about it, so they know now.

[ToSeek]

Alright, you have at least 2 sitting in your box now. :D

More like 12. Fortunately, Spam Decimator was smart enough to delete all three threads when I told it about one.

And it doesn't seem to have banned anyone this time.

[Dragon Star]

12? Holy hell...

You need a "Clear Spam Box" button. :D

[ToSeek]

I have a special mailbox in my mail program just for BAUT spam reports, so it's easy to deal with them in a group, if need be.

[Dragon Star]

Oh, that's nice!

I wish we could get something implemented that would be more effective...

[umop ap!sdn]

Alright, you have at least 2 sitting in your box now. :D
LOL! :D

[ToSeek]

Oh, that's nice!

I wish we could get something implemented that would be more effective...

Short of making everyone on here a moderator, I'm not sure what we could do. As it is, most spam messages are gone within half-an-hour.

[Dragon Star]

Yea, we are pretty efficient, but it could be better.

I really think we need to look toward a new moderator that's on when others are not, we seem to have dropped a few mod's over time anyways.:neutral: Poor Antoniseb and ToSeek bare most of the load.

[ToSeek]

Tinaa has also been doing a lot. And Wolverine was really on top of things until his recent sabbatical. 90% of the time when I check a spam report either antoniseb or Tinaa has gotten to it first.

[Dragon Star]

:doh:

Sorry I left you out Tinaa!

[antoniseb]

Yes, Tinaa is great! BTW, Duane doesn't hit the spam so often, but he covers threads the rest of us won't look at.

[ToSeek]

As does Nereid.

[antoniseb]

Yes. Or more accurately (since I *look at* the threads Nereid handles), Nereid does an astounding amount of research keeping people honest. It is easy to remove spam compared to the hours that Nereid puts in.

[Tinaa]

Ahhh *blush* Y'all are too kind! I try to read as many threads as possible and am astounded at the vast array of knowledge shared by both the members and the other mods.

Like antoniseb said, hitting the spam button is nothing, moderating the ATM section takes work!

[ToSeek]

Well, I sometimes look at them, but then I groan and go away. Usually for quite a long time. ;)

[Fraser]

Yes. Or more accurately (since I *look at* the threads Nereid handles), Nereid does an astounding amount of research keeping people honest. It is easy to remove spam compared to the hours that Nereid puts in.

Yeah, the spammers are a minor annoyance. Especially now that we've got the spam button. I know the injustice of it drives you crazy, but don't worry about it.