PDA

View Full Version : Who else hates switching times?



JS Princeton
2003-Apr-06, 07:17 AM
Oh, I do. If I am travelling, I don't mind switching time zones, but Daylight Savings Time versus Standard Time irks me to no end. First of all, why is it that Daylight Savings Time lasts longer than Standard Time? I know the answer of course (that Standard Time is closer to Solar Time), and granted it's only by a few weeks, but that still makes me feel like it's a stupid thing to switch back and forth. Why can't it be Daylight Savings Time always? Is it really that awful to have the sun come up late in the wintertime?

Harumph... I guess I'm just grumpy about losing an hour a sleep.

RafaelAustin
2003-Apr-06, 08:01 AM
Put me in the 'discontent' column! In fact the clock just switched over! I'm minus one hour right now!

Colt
2003-Apr-06, 08:27 AM
Could someone explain what standard and daylight savings time is exactly, please? I had heard that it was so the Japanese couldn't find us in WWII to bomb Anchorage.. I think this probably just rumor though. -Colt

RafaelAustin
2003-Apr-06, 09:42 AM
Well, I found this site (http://webexhibits.org/daylightsaving/c.html) on Daylight Savings Time. Goes back to Ben Franklin.

Glom
2003-Apr-06, 10:45 AM
I'd rather we stayed on Greenwich Mean Time over here. It means I can start my observin' earlier.

kilopi
2003-Apr-06, 10:59 AM
First of all, why is it that Daylight Savings Time lasts longer than Standard Time? I know the answer of course (that Standard Time is closer to Solar Time), and granted it's only by a few weeks, but that still makes me feel like it's a stupid thing to switch back and forth.
Why is Standard Time being closer to Solar Time a reason for DST lasting longer then ST?

And it hasn't always, has it?

SAMU
2003-Apr-06, 11:02 AM
Daylight savings time was so in olden days greedy buisiness owners could use their workers more hours without burning candles for light. They just got them up earlier when the sun came up earlier in the summer. They didn't know about biological cycles. These days, even though they don't need to conserve candles and though they know about physiological cycles, they just don't care or they like mucking up people just because they can.

Evil villans, mumble, gripe, revolution, gillotine.

David Hall
2003-Apr-06, 11:54 AM
When I lived in the US I always questioned the necessity of DST. I wondered why we couldn't just stay on the same time. But since moving to Japan, which doesn't have DST, I've actually been missing it. I'll tell you, it's no fun trying to get your last few hours of sleep in the morning when the Sun comes up before 5 am. And it sure would be nice to have everything stay light later in the evening. I could finish my late classes or other chores and still go out at twilight to catch satellites and early evening phenomena like Mercury.

Hmm. stay on DST all year round...that might work. In the winter it'd still be dark even late in the morning, but you'd have more light in the evening. I like that idea. I never liked mornings anyway, I prefer to sleep through them.

Glom
2003-Apr-06, 12:04 PM
It seems that the is strong feeling that we should do away with this summer time stuff. However, there is massive division over which one to choose.

John Kierein
2003-Apr-06, 12:45 PM
It's Daylight Saving Time, not Savings according to the Today Show folks. Nice to correct the Princeton guy.
Anyhow I'm working in Tucson at the moment and it's always Mountain Standard Time here. But the Airline folks always screw it up and announce it as Pacific time in the summer.
I think in Australian places, Daylight Saving Time may be a change of only a half hour. How's that for a compromise??

Chuck
2003-Apr-06, 01:31 PM
Arizona doesn't go on daylight saving time. I consider it an evil plot to make me miss the first hour of Monday Night Football once per year.

JS Princeton
2003-Apr-06, 05:21 PM
First of all, why is it that Daylight Savings Time lasts longer than Standard Time? I know the answer of course (that Standard Time is closer to Solar Time), and granted it's only by a few weeks, but that still makes me feel like it's a stupid thing to switch back and forth.
Why is Standard Time being closer to Solar Time a reason for DST lasting longer then ST?

And it hasn't always, has it?

Yeah, that was a bit nebulous. I'm just saying that it would seem to me since DST lasts longer than ST, shouldn't we call DST Standard? The reason we don't, of course, is because ST is closer to Solar Time.

Talk about confusing.

I really don't have an explanation for why DST is longer than ST.

Comixx
2003-Apr-06, 07:26 PM
I'm in Phoenix too, so no DST for me...I'm GMT -7 all year 'round.

Of course, that really messes up trying to stay in contact with out-of-state relatives and friends when you're not sure if they're 2 or 3 hours ahead/behind THIS month...sigh...it's an antiquated idea that needs to be abolished. Maybe we should abolish DST at the same time we finally convert to metric. I can dream, cant I?

Dickenmeyer
2003-Apr-06, 07:34 PM
Here in Indiana we don't go on daylight savings time (except for a couple of little slices of the state near Chicago and Cincinnatti) so we don't have to inconvenience the livestock. There's a whole lot of argument about it in the state legislature every year but nobody can decide whether we should align ourselves with Eastern Time or Central Time so by not changing we get to be both.

darkhunter
2003-Apr-06, 07:35 PM
Could be worse: the hodge-podge of times (each town clock set to it's own local time) before they invented time zones....

kilopi
2003-Apr-06, 10:41 PM
Yeah, that was a bit nebulous. I'm just saying that it would seem to me since DST lasts longer than ST, shouldn't we call DST Standard? The reason we don't, of course, is because ST is closer to Solar Time.
Yep, pretty much. Some years, in the USA, we've had DST year-round.

It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business. Too much inertia and expense, I guess.

SeanF
2003-Apr-07, 01:12 AM
Here in Indiana we don't go on daylight savings time . . . so we don't have to inconvenience the livestock.

The page Rafael posted made a similar point with a chicken farmer quoted as saying, "The chickens do not adapt to the changed clock until several weeks have gone by so the first week of April and the last week of October are very frustrating for us."

I'm curious as to why farmers would feel the need to milk the cows or whatever by the artificial clock instead of by the natural clock? It's not like the chickens need to run on the same 9-to-5 schedule as office workers, do they?


It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.

It boggles my mind that you seem to think that's not exactly what we're doing. :)

freddo
2003-Apr-07, 01:25 AM
My opinion on the topic changes depending on the time shift.. Here in Oz we've just come down off DST so I gained an hour..... Ask me again when Daylight Savings resumes, and I'll be one unhappy chappy.

My extra hour BTW was used in gaining some extra zz's - but wasted bcause it fell on a Sat (i think) nite, and Sundays are sleep-in days anyway.

kilopi
2003-Apr-07, 08:54 AM
It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.

It boggles my mind that you seem to think that's not exactly what we're doing.
It boggles my mind that two people can use the same words to talk about the same subject, and mean two different things. :)

But then, I like being boggled.

kucharek
2003-Apr-07, 09:21 AM
In Germany, DST is called "Sommerzeit" (Summertime). In 1947, we even had a "Hochsommerzeit" (Midsummertime). Normally, Germany is GMT +1.
6 April 1947 it went to GMT+2 and 11 May 1947 to GMT+3. On 29 June 1947 it went back to GMT+2 and finally on 5 October 1947 back to GMT+1.
This was during the time, Germany was under allied occupation (The FRG was proclaimed on 23 May 1949).

Poor cows. (*)

Harald

(*) That refers to that they had to adopt to new milking times four times that year, not to that they had to give milk in an occupied Germany... ;-)

beskeptical
2003-Apr-07, 09:31 AM
Personally, I'd like to see the day changed to 26 or so hours instead of 24. We could all get more sleep. :D

logicboy
2003-Apr-07, 02:07 PM
I am in Scottsdale, AZ and I work on New York Time because by job revolves around the stock market :( so this time of the year I have to be at work at 4:30am. One standard time please!!!!
I only get about 4hrs sleep this time of year because for some reason I cant go to bed before 10:00 pm. It's just not right.

kucharek
2003-Apr-07, 02:11 PM
I am in Scottsdale, AZ and I work on New York Time because by job revolves around the stock market :( so this time of the year I have to be at work at 4:30am. One standard time please!!!!
I only get about 4hrs sleep this time of year because for some reason I cant go to bed before 10:00 pm. It's just not right.

Come to Old Europe, the time zone where you have plenty of time to sleep out and have a nice breakfast before working for the stock market in NY... :-)

Harald

ToSeek
2003-Apr-07, 02:16 PM
Why can't it be Daylight Savings Time always?

It was for at least one winter during the 70s energy crisis. There was some concern, though, about situations like children standing at the bus stop in the morning in the dark (instead of in daylight).

I'm not sure what to think: I'm bleary-eyed today, but then I was already starting to get up earlier because the Sun was rising so much earlier, so DST is just a reflection of reality - I was already setting my alarm an hour earlier as of a week or so ago.

CJSF
2003-Apr-07, 02:22 PM
I just think it's so American (as in USA) to change TIME instead of modifying our habits. If you want to have stuff open when it's still light out, CHANGE STORE HOURS. I mean, why not just shift work schedules by one hour come spring?

Wouldn't it make more sense from an energy conservation perspective to have DST in the WINTER?

CJSF

P.S.
I used to have my watch always set to EST, year 'round in protest, until my wife forbade it. She used to use my watches to see what time it was and would be late for appointments.

logicboy
2003-Apr-07, 02:34 PM
Come to Old Europe, the time zone where you have plenty of time to sleep out and have a nice breakfast before working for the stock market in NY... :-)

Harald

breakfast whats that :) my breakfast consists of coffee and this morning included Peanut M&M's

Moose
2003-Apr-07, 02:38 PM
I'm sure I have an opinion on the subject, but I'm too sleep-short from missing that hour to really know. :o

I'll let you know once my sleep patterns normalize. Like, say, in autumn when 6am is no longer ungodly early.

:oops:
^
Me, holding my breath to get my hour of sleep back.

ToSeek
2003-Apr-07, 04:04 PM
I just think it's so American (as in USA) to change TIME instead of modifying our habits. If you want to have stuff open when it's still light out, CHANGE STORE HOURS. I mean, why not just shift work schedules by one hour come spring?


I think it says something about America that if the president went on television and said that he was issuing a directive that everyone was required by law to get up an hour earlier the next morning that there would be riots in the streets, but if he just says to adjust your clocks (thus causing the same thing to happen), the most people do is go on a message board and complain.

ljbrs
2003-Apr-07, 04:46 PM
kilopi wrote:
It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.


It boggles my mind that you seem to think that's not exactly what we're doing.
_________________
SeanF



I think you missed kilopi's point. I believe that he (kilopi) meant that, instead of changing time each year, simply change work schedules for once and for all and let the time zone remain the same for once and for all. (Correct me if I am wrong, kilopi). I realize that time zones are dependent upon the Sun's being overhead at the point of change. However, unless you live directly under the time zone marker, the Sun is never overhead, anyway. So it is an unrealistic position for the rest of us.

I simply hate time-zone change. I believe that this time this year, I have out-thunk them all. I purposely keep my waking and sleeping times the same, so when the time zone changes, my waking and sleeping are unaffected, with the exception that the sun is at a different position for most of the day. Of course, getting used to a varying work schedule can be a real pain!

Whatever. The golfers want to play golf. The astronomers want the night sky. We cannot please them all.

ljbrs :wink:

daver
2003-Apr-07, 05:39 PM
Why can't it be Daylight Savings Time always?

It was for at least one winter during the 70s energy crisis. There was some concern, though, about situations like children standing at the bus stop in the morning in the dark (instead of in daylight).

I'm not sure what to think: I'm bleary-eyed today, but then I was already starting to get up earlier because the Sun was rising so much earlier, so DST is just a reflection of reality - I was already setting my alarm an hour earlier as of a week or so ago.

Yep, i remember. I got some nice views of Venus on the school bus.

Traffic accidents are said to go up whenever we switch times.

I think we ought to go to sidereal time. That way everyone on earth can be on the same time zone, and morning people and evening people can be equally annoyed. We get an extra day in the year. Hmm. Even better, everyone goes on sidereal time, but offset by your zodiacal sign. People whose sun sign is Pisces have their personal midnight when Pisces is overhead (well, pick a Pisces). This should allow for much greater utilization of freeways. All businesses by necessity become 24 hour businesses (well, 23 hours, 57 minutes). There would actually be a rationale for asking someone's sign.

SeanF
2003-Apr-07, 06:17 PM
kilopi wrote:
It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.


It boggles my mind that you seem to think that's not exactly what we're doing.
_________________
SeanF



I think you missed kilopi's point. I believe that he (kilopi) meant that, instead of changing time each year, simply change work schedules for once and for all and let the time zone remain the same for once and for all.

Well, I wondered if he meant changing permanently rather than back-and-forth every year, but that would imply he's equating any advantage to doing it during the summer with an advantage to doing it all year long, and that doesn't seem like the k-pi we've come to know and love, either . . .

kilopi
2003-Apr-07, 06:20 PM
I think it says something about America that if the president went on television and said that he was issuing a directive that everyone was required by law to get up an hour earlier the next morning that there would be riots in the streets, but if he just says to adjust your clocks (thus causing the same thing to happen), the most people do is go on a message board and complain.
I see the source of our disagreement there.

You think that it has to be the government that makes the change, in either case. I think people can pretty much make up their own mind. They just don't. Must be all those government schools. :)


Well, I wondered if he meant changing permanently rather than back-and-forth every year, but that would imply he's equating any advantage to doing it during the summer with an advantage to doing it all year long, and that doesn't seem like the k-pi we've come to know and love, either . . .
Incredibly, there are people who advocate permanent full time DST. I believe the argument is that in the winter it doesn't matter, what you lose on one end you gain on the other anyway.

And, Sean, if you ever need someone whacked or a body disposed of, just let me know. We're family.

Glom
2003-Apr-07, 06:21 PM
I think we ought to go to sidereal time. That way everyone on earth can be on the same time zone, and morning people and evening people can be equally annoyed.

A noble sentiment but sidereal time is local just like solar time. We would still have time zones. The only difference is that we'd have our lunch at midnight in spring.

kilopi
2003-Apr-07, 06:27 PM
A noble sentiment but sidereal time is local just like solar time. We would still have time zones. The only difference is that we'd have our lunch at midnight in spring.
Uh, Glom, under daver's scheme, only one twelfth of the folk around you would be eating lunch at midnight. Everybody would have their personal time. So to speak.

A sidereal day is closer to 23h56m, however.

SeanF
2003-Apr-07, 06:56 PM
I think it says something about America that if the president went on television and said that he was issuing a directive that everyone was required by law to get up an hour earlier the next morning that there would be riots in the streets, but if he just says to adjust your clocks (thus causing the same thing to happen), the most people do is go on a message board and complain.
I see the source of our disagreement there.

You think that it has to be the government that makes the change, in either case. I think people can pretty much make up their own mind. They just don't. Must be all those government schools. :)

I don't know about that. Certainly, you can choose to stay on Standard Time if you like, but your boss may not appreciate you waltzing in at "your" 8:00 (if you tango in, or maybe foxtrot, you might be okay). And if you try to go to the bank at 4:30, you're in for a disappointment.


Well, I wondered if he meant changing permanently rather than back-and-forth every year, but that would imply he's equating any advantage to doing it during the summer with an advantage to doing it all year long, and that doesn't seem like the k-pi we've come to know and love, either . . .
Incredibly, there are people who advocate permanent full time DST. I believe the argument is that in the winter it doesn't matter, what you lose on one end you gain on the other anyway.

Okay, you don't advocate year-round DST, so I'm concluding that you don't care for DST at all. Fair enough.

I'm still confused about your statement to which I initially responded. Do you mean to say that not only do you not see any advantage to the back-and-forth, but you don't even see how their could be an advantage to it?


And, Sean, if you ever need someone whacked or a body disposed of, just let me know. We're family.

Well, everybody's been pretty nice to me lately, but I'll keep this in mind! :)

kilopi
2003-Apr-07, 07:17 PM
I'm still confused about your statement to which I initially responded. Do you mean to say that not only do you not see any advantage to the back-and-forth, but you don't even see how their could be an advantage to it?
I think I understand the pros and cons pretty well, and why there is considered an advantage. H*ck, I even understood when Denver pressed the Colorado legislature to go on permanent Daylight Saving Time to deal with their pollution problem. I was sitting in traffic on I-225 at the time. I may even be able to answer your chicken farmer question, weird as that situation is, even though I'm not a chicken farmer. The explanation that I was given was that the farm chores are pretty much laid out in order each day, and one of them is a trip into town for supplies. If the farmer doesn't also go on DST, the stores are closed by the time they get there (or, closed an hour early, or (fill in the blank) ).

Glom
2003-Apr-07, 07:20 PM
Uh, Glom, under daver's scheme, only one twelfth of the folk around you would be eating lunch at midnight. Everybody would have their personal time. So to speak.

A sidereal day is closer to 23h56m, however.

:-? If we used sidereal time then during spring, 00h00 would be the time of noon approx (well, on the vernal equinox specifically).

ljbrs
2003-Apr-07, 07:30 PM
I think that the whole problem with time zone changes is [b]change itself[b/]. The time-zone change really throws you for a loop if you are at all sensitive to time. In addition, in the summer, it forces you to wait longer (and to stay awake longer) to get in sufficient astronomical observing time (if there is any such thing as sufficient astronomical observing time). One needs adequate sleep to survive.

ljbrs :( ZZZZzzzzzz....

beskeptical
2003-Apr-07, 08:51 PM
On the other hand, as a native Californian who migrated north, it does make a big difference which latitiude one is at. In the summer here daylight lasts until 2200 (10PM). In the winter it gets dark at 1600 (4PM). I think changing the clocks does matter, but only for a short time, then it's a wash.

What I hate is always forgetting which is standard and which is daylight, and, when to subtract 7 hours and when to subtract 8 from UTC. :roll:

SeanF
2003-Apr-07, 09:17 PM
I'm still confused about your statement to which I initially responded. Do you mean to say that not only do you not see any advantage to the back-and-forth, but you don't even see how their could be an advantage to it?
I think I understand the pros and cons pretty well, and why there is considered an advantage. H*ck, I even understood when Denver pressed the Colorado legislature to go on permanent Daylight Saving Time to deal with their pollution problem. I was sitting in traffic on I-225 at the time.
You're a tough guy to pin down, you know that? You said:

It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.
Could you please expound on this a bit? I'm not entirely sure what your point was.

I may even be able to answer your chicken farmer question, weird as that situation is, even though I'm not a chicken farmer. The explanation that I was given was that the farm chores are pretty much laid out in order each day, and one of them is a trip into town for supplies. If the farmer doesn't also go on DST, the stores are closed by the time they get there (or, closed an hour early, or (fill in the blank) ).
Well, that makes a certain amount of sense. I would think it should still be possible to keep the cows and chickens on a set schedule and not change their clocks, but what do I know?

By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to criticize the wording of the original poll. It doesn't seem fair that the only "Pro-DST" option gives a specific reason (and a rather cynical one at that - the responses certainly don't seem to indicate that farmers are strong supporters of DST). Where's the "Let's keep DST because it makes sense and is a good idea" option? :)

kilopi
2003-Apr-07, 10:05 PM
You're a tough guy to pin down, you know that? You said:

It boggles my mind that if there is an advantage to it, why we just don't change the hours we wake and do business.
Could you please expound on this a bit? I'm not entirely sure what your point was.
I think I see. You took my first comment as implying that I didn't think that there was an advantage.

But no, if it gets light at 5am ST and dark at 7 pm (I know, it's seldom exactly symmetric), and you have to be at work at 8am, and you work till 5 pm, then you have to burn energy from 7 pm till bedtime, whereas you probably got up at 6am and wasted that first hour of daylight. It may even have disturbed your sleep.

Why do we all go to work at 8am? I dunno, it just causes traffic jams. I'm liking daver's idea where everyone has their own personal time and schedules get spread out. Let all those Pisces work with other Pisces, they deserve each other. :)

It seems to me that if there is a net advantage, it should have worked its way in and manifested itself in the marketplace somehow.


Well, that makes a certain amount of sense. I would think it should still be possible to keep the cows and chickens on a set schedule and not change their clocks, but what do I know?
I don't even think there are a lot of such farm operations anymore. That may be the reason that the chickens have to get reset--they're in French-range pens, and their caretakers work 9 to 5.


By the way, I'd like to take this opportunity to criticize the wording of the original poll. It doesn't seem fair that the only "Pro-DST" option gives a specific reason (and a rather cynical one at that - the responses certainly don't seem to indicate that farmers are strong supporters of DST). Where's the "Let's keep DST because it makes sense and is a good idea" option? :)
You mean besides the first one? :)

ljbrs
2003-Apr-08, 01:24 AM
Problem:

If everybody in a Time Zone woke up at daylight's first rays, then every person in that Time Zone would be waking at slightly different times and the Time Zone would be meaningless as an inflexible measurement of time. The same would hold at night, since everybody would experience darkness at different times in each Time Zone. We would all be crazy mixed up people. How does one direct one's personal clock to set itself exactly according to the setting Sun? Perhaps someone could devise a special mechanism to do that impossible job.

Who is to prevent anyone from turning off the alarm and going right back to sleep, canceling out the benefits of a flexible time zone clock?

Now, who here on BABB can get sillier than that?

ljbrs :roll:

SeanF
2003-Apr-08, 01:46 PM
It seems to me that if there is a net advantage, it should have worked its way in and manifested itself in the marketplace somehow.

Because they're different marketplaces. Take a specific example; DST in the summer benefits pro baseball because they get an extra hour before they have to turn the lights on. They could accomplish the same thing on Standard Time by just starting the games at 6:00 instead of 7:00, but that would cause attendance problems if everybody works until 5:00. For the banks/businesses, there's really no distinction between 8-5 and 7-4, so they've got no inherent reason to adopt DST on their own.

In other words, DST benefits citizens after they're home from work (and, I suppose, it benefits the electric company), but it doesn't directly benefit the businesses the citizens work for.




Where's the "Let's keep DST because it makes sense and is a good idea" option? :)
You mean besides the first one? :)

Well, yeah. The first one says to use DST all year long, which ain't what I'd propose. :)

ToSeek
2003-Apr-08, 03:57 PM
We would all be crazy mixed up people.

And this would be different because ... ?


:D

nebularain
2003-Apr-08, 04:07 PM
I think what is meant by the farmers is that while everyone else's business'schedules adjusts to the new time, farm animals don't. So, the farmer who has to feed his animals at 5:30 am standard time (I don't know what time exactly, I just know they seem to have to get up pretty early) under daylight savings he has to feed them at 4:30 am! :o Then he has to wait an extra hour for any in-town business.

Poor guys!

kilopi
2003-Apr-08, 06:43 PM
OK, that makes sense, so the honoring farmers and Ben Franklin means doing it both ways, ST and DST?

tracer
2003-Apr-08, 07:26 PM
You know what I hate most about Daylight Saving Time?

The fact that this new Bulletin Board software doesn't let you specify that you're in a time zone that uses Daylight Saving Time. I had to manually go and change my profile from displaying times as GMT-8hrs. to GMT-7hrs.

FP
2003-Apr-08, 08:32 PM
Ireally dislike the change. In March the sun is right in my eyes as I drive to work in the morning. By the end of the month it is rising early enough so that it is not a problem. Then, BOOM, the time changes and I get it right in the eyes for another month! :evil:

Glom
2003-Apr-08, 08:54 PM
The fact that this new Bulletin Board software doesn't let you specify that you're in a time zone that uses Daylight Saving Time. I had to manually go and change my profile from displaying times as GMT-8hrs. to GMT-7hrs.

But then, the old software didn't let you specify a timezone at all.