Lightsabers

[OngoingWalnut]

I know this is Bad Astronomy.com....but answer this, if you will.

Q: Is it possible for lightsabers to work in real life? Or is it a figment of Lucas's imagination? /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_confused.gif

http://www.lucasforums.com/images/smilies/duel.gif

[Paul Best]

They are almost certainly a figment of his imagination. Though when I was back in school we did try to figure out even within the realm of more reasonable science fiction how exactly to make one work...

You could for instance send out a jet of plasma with a particular charge, thanks to a monopole magnet. Then in the next split second you'd "flip" the monopole and pull the particles back in. You can imagine just how much of a pain that would cause. The blades
of these would also repel eachother if crossed, but they'd have to be timed exactly.

Or you could make what would be in essance a very powerful blowtorch (which seems to actually be what lightsabers are) but then
you'd be able to cut right through somebody elses blade.

About the most realistic thing you could do would be to work out how to put a laser of decent power with a lifespan of maybe a few
hours, into the handle of a sword, with a loop of fiberoptic cable instead of a blade.
And even thats no match for a good blaster at your side.

[GrapesOfWrath]

On 2002-10-07 19:11, Paul Best wrote:
And even thats no match for a good blaster at your side.

Ah, the death of romance. Or, I should say, the romance of death. Whatever.

[Kaptain K]

Also note that in Episode One, one of the Jedi sticks his lightsaber into a bankvault-like door and in a couple of minutes, the door is slagged down! How are they powered? Antimatter?

[Doodler]

The explanation I read was they can use almost any available power source because the energy loop (a tight parabolic laser beam was what I always thought they were) fed back in upon itself and lost little power. Hence, it constantly recycled itself.

Addendum: My source on this was the Star Wars RPG 2nd Edition. So who knows what Lucas originally intended.
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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Doodler on 2002-10-08 09:54 ]</font>

[David Hall]

Actually, considering the amounts of energy thrown around willy-nilly in the Star Wars universe, I'd say they probably have learned how to tap into the zero-point energy of the universe, giving them an almost infinite supply. As for the need for energy packs and other power sources, I'd rationalize them by saying that you need a small amount of energy on hand to start up the ZPE generators in the first place.

And perhaps half of the skill in making your own lightsaber is in making a ZPE generator small enough to fit into a handle. Most others are probably too large for portable use, or too unstable to be tapped into for more than an instant. So maybe a blaster could tap into it long enough for a short burst, but can't generate a constant beam, and starships can have large generators able to power all their systems, but only a lightsaber can pull as much ZPE as it needs over a long time and in such a small package.

Just trying to rationalize things away here.

[Chuck]

I always assumed that the light sabre focused The Force which is known to be everywhere.

[TinFoilHat]

Here's a good page about lightsabers, including what we can conclude about their physics:

http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres.htm

In short: we can't reproduce something that works just like a lightsaber with today's technology, and really can't more that guess at how one might work. Lucas didn't base them off anything real.

[Doodler]

Thoroughly fascinating. I wonder what they'll make of Count Dooku's lightsaber.

[n810]

One might also consider the the concept of the "variable sword" presented in Larry Niven's Ringworld. Take a piece of impossibly strong monofiliment, put a handle on one end and a visual reference on the other (so you know how long it is)and enclose the monofiliment in a stasis field. Cuts through anything. If you added a lightsource in the handle you would have a lightsaber.

Of course it's all just fantasy right now...

And I'm betting that the skill in constructing your own lightsaber lies in not killing yourself in the process.

[Avatar28]

My thought on them has always been that it's some sort of tightly focused forcefield. I guess it's no more scientific than any other explanation, but if you're going to have deflector shields then why not do it that way. It might explain how it's able to reflect blaster shots, too.

[Krel]

There is an old space opera weapon called a 'Force Blade'. It is a handle containing a force field projector that projects a blade-shaped force field, which can be of knife, or sword lenghth. Sometimes the blades were illuminated.

Although he might not have known of the force blade, George Lucas 'borrowed' from a lot of differnt sources without acknowlegment of the sources.

David.

[Bad Engineer]

Although he might not have known of the force blade, George Lucas 'borrowed' from a lot of differnt sources without acknowlegment of the sources.

I'm not sure that's entirely true (that he never acknowledged the sources). I'm pretty sure I recall reading that Lucas was a fan of Akiro Kurasawa, and that he admitted that his idea behind Star Wars was inspired by Hidden Fortress

BE

[frenat]

You guys might want to check these links out. They are not real in the sense that they will cut through anything of course but they are about as close as we can get now.
http://www.high-techmagic.com/Lightsabers.html
http://www.buystarwarsstuff.com/lightsabers.shtml

[David Hall]

It might be more accurate to say that Lucas was "heavily influenced" by many sources, rather than that he borrowed from them.

That said, it is common knowledge that the original Star Wars was very closely modelled on The Hidden Fortress.

Another heavy influence on George and Star Wars was Joseph Campbell (http://ibelgique.ifrance.com/sw-anthropo/txt/camptexteanglais.html) and his work on myths and archetypes.

[Krel]

I was talking about designs in the films. When it was released it was well known that parts of the Imperial Walkers were copied from a designers paintings, I think it was Syd Mead. This was probably a homage on the part of the model makers, but it was noted.

When we went see "Return Of The Jedi", a friend of mine told us later that Jabba was from the later "Dune" novels.

People have noted that Han Solo's costume resembles the space heros for Al Williamson's work.

There used to be a convention game back in the 80s where you were to name what Lucas borrowed, and from where.

I'm sorry if I gave the impression that he was stealing things. To me, he was/is getting classic SF, and space opera images out where people could see them. It has gotten more people interested in Science Fiction, and I think that, that's a good thing.

David.

[Dragon9]

How about this... The beam of a lightsaber isn't actually a laser but a telescoping rod of a special material. This material can be heated to extremely high temperatures while only radiating a tiny fraction of it's thermal energy in the form of visible light. The surface temperature of the bar might be 100,000 degrees but it only radiates enought energy to look bright. In other words, it's just a glowing sword that is extremely hot to touch.

The power source for the saber could be a compact antimatter reactor in the handle. When turned on the bar extends out, when turned off it retracts.

Is material with such properties possible? Who knows, but I believe that this would reporoduce the properties of the lightsaber we have seen in the movies.

[xriso]

On 2002-10-22 20:20, Dragon9 wrote:
How about this... The beam of a lightsaber isn't actually a laser but a telescoping rod of a special material. This material can be heated to extremely high temperatures while only radiating a tiny fraction of it's thermal energy in the form of visible light. The surface temperature of the bar might be 100,000 degrees but it only radiates enought energy to look bright. In other words, it's just a glowing sword that is extremely hot to touch.

The power source for the saber could be a compact antimatter reactor in the handle. When turned on the bar extends out, when turned off it retracts.

Is material with such properties possible? Who knows, but I believe that this would reporoduce the properties of the lightsaber we have seen in the movies.


Hey, that seems to work. It's a bit of play on the meaning of the word "light saber", but only slightly. I think this might also explain why the "laser"s in Star Wars are visible and have significant travel time, i.e. they shoot this superheated material.

It also explains why these light-emitting objects can block each other (light saber fights, blocking a "laser" with light saber).


<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: xriso on 2002-10-22 22:30 ]</font>

[Mr. X]

I always sort of assumed it was Force powered but what do I know! /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_razz.gif

Except for the part in Shadows of the Empire where it is said that R2-D2 could turn Luke's new lightsabre... disturbing...

[Firefox]

It also explains why these light-emitting objects can block each other (light saber fights, blocking a "laser" with light saber).

The only problem with this is that the "lasers" in Star Wars don't behave like lasers. According to some of the written works in the Expanded Universe, the lasers, such as those fired by fighters and ships, or hand weapons, are actually plasma-based. In other words, they aren't beams of light, since they don't propogate at c, among other effects. I would imagine some other mechanism powers lightsabers, not the Force, let alone anything we can think of. Probably some sort of Incredible Plot Device (IPD). ::shrug::


-Adam

[Colt]

http://www.trekbbs.com/ubb/Forum8/HTML/002892.html A heated debate over Star Wars and lightsabers and all of the other crap Star Was puts out (no offense, I like it but some of it is complete, contrived **..). Don't throw it off as just a SW vs ST thread, the guys on there are pretty damn intelligent and really tried to beat some sense into the troll. -Colt

[Raja]

Stopping by from the JREF boards...

A little while ago, these links were posted on the JREF Banter board:

http://www.geocities.com/lasersword2001/Lightsabre/LightsabreConstructionV1.html
http://reallightsabre.cjb.net/
http://www.geocities.com/lasersword2001/Lightsabre/pictures.html

Apparently, this guy has designed and is building what he thinks will be a working, real "lightsabre." More rational minds believe he has designed a needlessly complex electromagnet. (He also believes he is a psyhic [sic] and telekinetic who can actually tap into "the Force," but that's beside the point...)

Hmm...high voltage circuitry and compressed hydrogen...

So, would anyone here care to attempt to talk him down?

R.

[David Hall]

On 2002-11-06 06:18, Raja wrote:

Hmm...high voltage circuitry and compressed hydrogen...

So, would anyone here care to attempt to talk him down?


Nah, let's let Darwin run it's course. We might just have the ultimate award winner here. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_biggrin.gif

[Colt]

A Darwin Award for this guy sounds about right. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif Though hydrogen is not that volatile, as most people think. -Colt

[Kaptain K]

Plenty of bad science on that page. For one, he talks about "hydrogen trioxide" but gives the formula "H3O". H3O+ is known as the hydronium ion. He then calls it hydrogen peroxide, which of course, is H2O2.

Sheesh!

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<font size=-1>[ This Message was edited by: Kaptain K on 2002-11-07 07:04 ]</font>

[Gramma loreto]

On 2002-10-07 19:11, Paul Best wrote:
You could for instance send out a jet of plasma with a particular charge, thanks to a monopole magnet. Then in the next split second you'd "flip" the monopole and pull the particles back in. You can imagine just how much of a pain that would cause.


An idea along those lines came to me many, many years ago when I was in training for avionic sensors maintenance...specifically, while learning about Cathode Ray Tubes in closed-circuit television systems. In the CRT, pretty much the same thing is done with a beam of electrons.

Conceptually then, it seems distantly plausible that the same could be done with higher energy particles at higher densities. Now, what to do about the multi-megagauss field you have to generate...

[cigarette_repairman]

At this link posted earlier in this thread http://www.synicon.com.au/sw/ls/sabres4.htm there was one particularly interesting theory. I know there are some great minds on this BB and I would be interested in knowing what people think of "Model Six" on that page (scroll down nearly to the bottom). It seems to take into account most the observed aspects of the Star Wars light saber such as the light it gives off and the way that it blocks another light saber blade and the apparent mass of the blade when it is swinging (the real reason for that apparent mass of course is that the lightsaber props had actual "blades" that were later lit up by special effects but that is no fun)

Here are a couple excerpts from the Model Six idea:

According to astrophysicist Yakov Borisovich Zel'dovich, a rapidly spinning conductor will cause the creation of virtual particle radiation at its surface. Particle production is controlled by the charge, angular velocity (of rotation) and radius of this charged conductor.

...Such charged fields would tend to repel one-another (if they are of like polarity), which means the blades would BLOCK one another.

Such a tight rapidly spinning charged superconducting field would rend (tear) through most matter by stripping off electrons which bind atoms together.

NOTE: Mr Forge would like to say that all the above, which having its roots in 'real' physics, is speculative, and must be taken with "several solar masses of sodium chloride"

There is a lot more to it if you follow the link to the page.

Never having spent time researching "the Star wars universe" Iam not qualified to provide a really definitive answer...
I always envisioned the light sabre as a laser based weapon. Possibly the beam is phased in such a way as to create interference patterns and limit the effective length. C'mon Laser guys is there an optical version of "VSWR"?:)

[Swordmanraiden]

I thought i saw a real light saber in the mall for like $5k

[mallen]

On 2002-11-07 11:45, Gramma loreto wrote:
Conceptually then, it seems distantly plausible that the same could be done with higher energy particles at higher densities. Now, what to do about the multi-megagauss field you have to generate...


WARNING: Remove loose change from pockets before using. /phpBB/images/smiles/icon_smile.gif

- Mike

[AstroAnimeFreak]

i just had a thought. is there any chance that plasma or any other highly volitle gaseous or laser capable materials, could possibly be magnetic? i have a slight idea crawing around in my skull, but if nothing is magnetic, then wel, it'll stay in my inmagination. although i'll tell everyone what it is once i find out if something exists!