The Best aero/space fighter in Science Fiction

[Jpax2003]

I thought we might have a thread that is for the unsung heros of space combat -- the light fast and maneuverable fighter craft. Actually, it can be an attack or light bomber craft too, but something smaller than a destroyer, cruiser or dreadnaught type of capital ship. I think you all know what I mean.

Anyways, I like the similar designs of the SW X-wing and B5 Star furies, especially the Thunderbolt Starfuries, but I think the similarly designed GunStar from The Last Starfighter is better than both. It carries lasers, particle beams, various rocket propelled missiles. It has interstellar range with an onboard FTL, and stealth and jamming capability. I think the two-crew design is better than a single operator. And of course, it has the kamikazi-style "Death Blossom" berzerker attack mode.

What's your favorite space fighter craft?

[Bilateralrope]

I like the starfurry fighters because they are the most realistic design for a starfighter that I've seen. And they have the best launch sequence. Who else actually drops their fighters into space ?

I'm not sure if the thunderbolts are the best design for an air and space fighter, but their design had the added problem of having to fit in a starfurry launch bay

[Togusa]

Anyways, I like the similar designs of the SW X-wing and B5 Star furies, especially the Thunderbolt Starfuries, but I think the similarly designed GunStar from The Last Starfighter is better than both. It carries lasers, particle beams, various rocket propelled missiles. It has interstellar range with an onboard FTL, and stealth and jamming capability. I think the two-crew design is better than a single operator. And of course, it has the kamikazi-style "Death Blossom" berzerker attack mode.
And the movie has legendary thespians like Robert Preston and Dan O'Herlihy playing aliens. :)

I thought that the GunStar was a very good design -- a fighter obviously designed for three-dimensional combat in space, with thrusters capable of pointing it (and any of its weapons) in any direction at the tap of the appropriate control almost instantly. And this nearly a decade before the similarly-designed Starfury. (Disclaimer: I'm not suggesting that the Starfury is a rip-off of the GunStar.)


What's your favorite space fighter craft?
A few I can think of:

- The YF-19 (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/plus/yf-19.htm) and YF-21 (http://www.mahq.net/mecha/macross/plus/yf-21.htm) variable fighters from "Macross Plus", particularly the latter because it was based on the Northrop-McDonnell Douglas YF-23 Advanced Tactical Fighter prototype (http://www.wpafb.af.mil/museum/research/fighter/f23.htm). (I have an artbook for "Macross Plus" that notes this, along with the fact that the OAV's mechanical designer and director took private air combat training as prep work for the series' climactic dogfight between the YF-19 and YF-21).

- The Skygrasper (http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/mechanics/veh_skygrasper.html) from "Gundam SEED". Although designed mainly to transport special weapons modules to the show's "hero mech", the Strike Gundam (http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/mechanics/ms_strike.html), the atmospheric fighter can use those weapons modules itself in a pinch. One of my favorite Skygrasper configurations has it carrying the weapons of the Strike Gundam's "Launcher" configuration (http://www.gundamofficial.com/worlds/ce/mechanics/ms_strikelauncher.html), which includes a huge 320mm "hyper impulse cannon" powerful enough to blow out the side of a space colony -- think of an F-15 armed with a battleship main gun.

- I thought the Hammerhead fighters from the Fox show "Space: Above and Beyond" were a rather striking combination of atmospheric and space fighter designs, along with the concept of the pilots boarding the fighter by getting into a cockpit capsule which is then docked into the rest of the vehicle. (BTW, I hear the show's coming to DVD later this year or early next year, at least in the US.)

- Activision and Warthog created the warp-capable Valkyrie fighter (not to be confused with the transformable space fighter of the same name from "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross", aka "Robotech: The Macross Saga") for the PlayStation game "Star Trek Invasion", but I'm not sure how, or even if, these craft are considered part of the ST canon, even though "Star Trek Invasion" was a licensed Star Trek game.

[Bilateralrope]

- Activision and Warthog created the warp-capable Valkyrie fighter (not to be confused with the transformable space fighter of the same name from "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross", aka "Robotech: The Macross Saga") for the PlayStation game "Star Trek Invasion", but I'm not sure how, or even if, these craft are considered part of the ST canon, even though "Star Trek Invasion" was a licensed Star Trek game.

For star trek, only the shows are cannon.

Could someone please ind me a picture of these gunstar fighters ?

[Jpax2003]

The Last Starfighter movie at IMDB (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0087597/)

There is a side view at Starship Dimensions (http://www.merzo.net/index.html). Click on the 10X tab and the Gunstar is most of the way down on the far right side. They also have other space fighters there too. BTW, you can click and move the images to be side by side for comparison.

Here's an interesting site (http://members.fortunecity.com/wendhausen/BRStarshipsv3/profile/laststarfighter/gunstar.htm) I goggled that had some images. I think the images are take of a model. The main page has links to other spacecraft as well.

edit to add:
Here (http://www.meshweaver.com/frames/Portfolio/htms/gstar.htm) is a site where a fan made their own meshes. The images are high res.

Here (http://www.cylon.org/films/last-intro-01.html) is a site with a good synopsis of the movie.

Edit 2 to add:
Here (http://www.arcticgraphics.com/thelaststarfighter.html) is a technical article on the making of the CGI on The Last Starfighter. Halfway down is a drawing of original Gunstar design. Time constraints made them stick with a more geometric design. While I think the original design would be better in an aerospace role, the eventual design seems better suited for a space-primary role. THe movie design also looks like a more heavil armored design. I could see both being useful in a sequel. I'd be interested in writing that.

[Kizarvexis]

- Activision and Warthog created the warp-capable Valkyrie fighter (not to be confused with the transformable space fighter of the same name from "Super Dimensional Fortress Macross", aka "Robotech: The Macross Saga") for the PlayStation game "Star Trek Invasion", but I'm not sure how, or even if, these craft are considered part of the ST canon, even though "Star Trek Invasion" was a licensed Star Trek game.

For star trek, only the shows are cannon.

Could someone please ind me a picture of these gunstar fighters ?

Here is a page with pics of the Gunstar. (http://members.fortunecity.com/wendhausen/BRStarshipsv3/profile/laststarfighter/gunstar2.htm)

I like the Aurora Starfury and the Thunderbolt from Babylon 5. The two seat Badger Starfury is pretty cool as well. The Narn Frazi was cool and the Minbari Nial had the interesting layout for the pilot.

Kizarvexis

[The Supreme Canuck]

I've always liked the B-Wing and Imperial Shuttle from Star Wars. I really couldn't say why.

[Daniel H.]

I favor the various Starfury designs followed by the Gunstar. They are simply the best space fighter designs I've seen.

[Bilateralrope]

Looking at these pics of the gunstar fighters, the only significant dfference is that the pilots in the gunstars is further foward than the pilot in a starfury. This would put him further away from the center of rotation, meaning that he would feel more centrifugal force as the ship spins . This would reduce the maximum rate of ratation.

[Jpax2003]

Looking at these pics of the gunstar fighters, the only significant dfference is that the pilots in the gunstars is further foward than the pilot in a starfury. This would put him further away from the center of rotation, meaning that he would feel more centrifugal force as the ship spins . This would reduce the maximum rate of ratation.

True, but you're thinking of the Gunner. The Pilot/Navigator is closer to the COG. However it's hard to tell where the COG actually is, but the mass appears to be toward the rear. A very quick pivot might be painful on the gunner, but less so for the pilot, and such a maneuver may be intended for evasion. Since the Gunstar uses gun turrets, the need to point the craft in battle is less important, but the increased visibility is arguably more important. If you look closely at the Gunstar designs it appears to have 5 turreted guns, with two to the rear, two to the front, slightly off center above, and one on the centerline bottom with an clear field of fire for most of that hemisphere.

I like the Starfuries, but they appear to only fire forward. The Thunderbolts do appear to carry rockets, but I don't recall them on the regular Starfuries. I think the Thunderbolts may also have a crew of 2. I'm not familiar with any other type of Starfury, but Kizarvexis mentioned other varieties.

[Jpax2003]

Copied from the Starship thread, that that's cool with everyone.


Now that is an ugly, bulky starfighter. :lol:

(What's with the empty space between the missile launchers? No openings to indicate ramscoops or anything... :-? )

Fuel storage? It may be a storage area that holds missle pods to be loaded into the firing bays.

[Lianachan]

I really like the TIE series from Star Wars - particularly the Interceptor and Vader's prototype of the Advanced.

Still with Star Wars, I also really like Jango & Boba Fett's ship Slave I. I think it's probably small enough to qualify...

[captain swoop]

I like the Tie fighters, they look like they are designed for combat in space and not to look like what people expect fighters to be.
Not very good allround vision though.

[Lianachan]

I like the Tie fighters, they look like they are designed for combat in space and not to look like what people expect fighters to be.
Yup. No wings as such. I like that aspect of them too.

Not very good allround vision though.
Yes, not ideal. No shields, either, as you're not expected to be concerned about your safety if you're flying one. Still - fast, maneouvrable, well armed, cool looking and even better sounding.

Note for pedants: Sound!? In space!? Yes. I know.

[PhantomWolf]

Yes, not ideal. No shields, either, as you're not expected to be concerned about your safety if you're flying one.

Early on the Imperials believed in skill be shown in testing enviroments, this is why the TIE-fighters were fast and manoevourable, but without shields. As a result, few Imperial pilots survived past their first encounters. Those that survived five combat missions were promoted to the faster and more robust TIE-Intercepter as they had shown themselves to be a superior pilot. The best of the best were later issued with TIE-Advanced which sported both a hyperdrive and shields making it more of a 1-1 match with the Rebel Craft. Unfortunately the Empire was in decline by then and so they didn't have the affect that they would of had they been in popular use during and before the Battle of Endor.

Later on when the Imperial Remanant didn't have quite the population resourses, shields were introduced to the Interceptors and Fighters as well so that pilots weren't lost quite so easily to the New Republic forces which had by then introduced the tougher E-Wings.

Also, though they are more nimble in space than any of the Rebel/New Republic fighters, in a atmosphere the solar panels mean that it is hard to slip sideways and they lose out to the more aerodynamic craft such as the X-Wing and A-Wing, so....

[Lianachan]

Yes, not ideal. No shields, either, as you're not expected to be concerned about your safety if you're flying one.

Early on the Imperials believed in skill be shown in testing enviroments, this is why the TIE-fighters were fast and manoevourable, but without shields. As a result, few Imperial pilots survived past their first encounters. Those that survived five combat missions were promoted to the faster and more robust TIE-Intercepter as they had shown themselves to be a superior pilot. The best of the best were later issued with TIE-Advanced which sported both a hyperdrive and shields making it more of a 1-1 match with the Rebel Craft. Unfortunately the Empire was in decline by then and so they didn't have the affect that they would of had they been in popular use during and before the Battle of Endor.

Later on when the Imperial Remanant didn't have quite the population resourses, shields were introduced to the Interceptors and Fighters as well so that pilots weren't lost quite so easily to the New Republic forces which had by then introduced the tougher E-Wings.

Also, though they are more nimble in space than any of the Rebel/New Republic fighters, in a atmosphere the solar panels mean that it is hard to slip sideways and they lose out to the more aerodynamic craft such as the X-Wing and A-Wing, so....

Yup. All very EU though. I've always liked the parallel between the Luftwaffe during WWII and the Empire, in that they were both introducing astonishing machines which could really have made a difference if they'd been around a couple of years earlier.

[PhantomWolf]

Yup. All very EU though. I've always liked the parallel between the Luftwaffe during WWII and the Empire, in that they were both introducing astonishing machines which could really have made a difference if they'd been around a couple of years earlier.

True, though for me, while the Films provide the skeleton the Expanded Universe is the meat and flavour that fills in and creates the overall atmosphere of SW.

Of course the Empire has more in common then just the lateness of the Tech after all it was modelled after both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, something that can be seen very well in the Imperial Uniforms (c.f. the Nazi Officer Uniforms.)

Of course the space fights also had their origins back in WWII as well with Lucas using footage from the Battle of Britian and other WWII air battles for the inspriation for the SW space battles. This is the reason that SW fighters act like airplanes even in space.

[Kemal]

The Star Fury of Babylon5 looks the best and seems well designed.

But star fighters do not make much sense to me. I do not see how dogfights could happen in space when you can see your enemy coming from across the solar system. You must put in life support for the pilot, retrieve the pilot, etc. So why not just use an armed unmanned drone? No need for years of training a pilot, just put in a flight program. And it can take more G forces.

Maybe if they are more like patrol boats that go out behind a planet/moon or something it would make sense, but as fighters they seem somewhat unlikely.

[Lianachan]

Yup. All very EU though. I've always liked the parallel between the Luftwaffe during WWII and the Empire, in that they were both introducing astonishing machines which could really have made a difference if they'd been around a couple of years earlier.

True, though for me, while the Films provide the skeleton the Expanded Universe is the meat and flavour that fills in and creates the overall atmosphere of SW.

Of course the Empire has more in common then just the lateness of the Tech after all it was modelled after both Nazi Germany and Soviet Russia, something that can be seen very well in the Imperial Uniforms (c.f. the Nazi Officer Uniforms.)

Of course the space fights also had their origins back in WWII as well with Lucas using footage from the Battle of Britian and other WWII air battles for the inspriation for the SW space battles. This is the reason that SW fighters act like airplanes even in space.

Yup. Some of that is, as you no doubt know, mentioned on the "Bonus" DVD that comes with the OT DVD set.

[PhantomWolf]

Fighters serve the same purpose as Military Aircraft today do. After all you could ask what the point of Naval Aircraft is when you can park a destroyer off the coast and assualt the opponent into the stone age with Cruise missiles.

Also Fighters improve the numbers game. 50 fighters are harder to knock out than 1 capital ship. They also provide screens to stop bombing attacks, or for doing and protection for bombing runs on the opponent.

Finally just as with a Aircraft Carrier, they allow the fleet to attack an area without putting the major capital ships in harms way.

Using some sort of droid or distance controlled fighter might sound good, but they are vulnerable to jamming amongst other things.

[captain swoop]

with the ai and computer technology of the Empire completely automated ships should be a doddle.

[Lianachan]

with the ai and computer technology of the Empire completely automated ships should be a doddle.

Especially considering there already were droid fighters in the Star Wars story, fighting in the Clone Wars. A useful bit of technology that would have been worth using, probably.

[mid]

with the ai and computer technology of the Empire completely automated ships should be a doddle.

One of the things the Prequel trilogy highlights is that droid fighters aren't considered a tactical match for their cloned opposition in the Star Wars universe, however.

[Halcyon Dayz]

A droid fighter would have been able to make high-g turns.
The sharpest turns as allowed by engineering rather than biology.

I always wondered why there weren't any fighters in the Star Trek universe.
All the required technology seems to have been available.

[teddyv]

A droid fighter would have been able to make high-g turns.
The sharpest turns as allowed by engineering rather than biology.

I always wondered why there weren't any fighters in the Star Trek universe.
All the required technology seems to have been available.

I recall only one incident of evidence of Federation fighters, that was in TNG in the Borg episode (Best of Both Worlds?) as the Cube passes Jupiter and wipes out 3 small craft. I haven't seen many DS9 so maybe there are more.

It did bug me that ST essentially treated its capital ships as fighters, (eg the battle at Wolf 359 from the first episode of DS9). Artificial gravity or not, thats a lot of stress on a crew of 400+.

[Gullible Jones]

The Starfuries are nice, but the 4 wings are overly redundant.

(I assume the Starfury is designed for subsonic flight in atmosphere, as well as spaceflight?)

[Lycus]

(I assume the Starfury is designed for subsonic flight in atmosphere, as well as spaceflight?)
I think the Thunderbolts were, but not the regular Starfuries.

[Doodler]

For best looking fighter, I'm with the B-Wing. Its got a compact and sleek profile in cruise mode, a very hard to target profile in combat mode, and enough firepower to make a capital ship captain sit up and take notice.

[Sock Munkey]

One thing that amuses me about the robotech fighters in "gerwalk mode" is that operating an air vehicle at ground level like that creates an air cushion effect which is actually very effecient at low to medium seeds.
A rare case of something that "looks cool" turning out to be right!

[Jpax2003]

A droid fighter would have been able to make high-g turns.
The sharpest turns as allowed by engineering rather than biology.

I always wondered why there weren't any fighters in the Star Trek universe.
All the required technology seems to have been available.

I recall only one incident of evidence of Federation fighters, that was in TNG in the Borg episode (Best of Both Worlds?) as the Cube passes Jupiter and wipes out 3 small craft. I haven't seen many DS9 so maybe there are more.

It did bug me that ST essentially treated its capital ships as fighters, (eg the battle at Wolf 359 from the first episode of DS9). Artificial gravity or not, thats a lot of stress on a crew of 400+.

Didn't Wesley Crusher get into trouble performing an outlawed maneuver with a fighter squad?

I think Halcyon is right about forces, but a better tactic might be a pivot which is low g. THe B5 Starfuries (and Whitestars and other medium class vessels) pivot as they pass a vessel to keep guns on target. Turreted guns would create even less g-force concerns. The gunstar is the only space fighter I am aware of with a multi-turreted design, although many capital ships from different armadas have turrets.

[Halcyon Dayz]

In combat you have to more or less randomly change your vector in
order to not get shot yourself. The tighter you can turn, the harder you are to hit.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

In combat you have to more or less randomly change your vector in
order to not get shot yourself. The tighter you can turn, the harder you are to hit.

That's the Point, we're Making ...

Any Space Craft, has a Zero-Turn Radius ...

All you Have to Do, Is Spin 180º Laterally, Thrust until Forward Velocity Equals Zero, and Then Spin 90º, in The Preferred Direction, Before Reengaging Thrust.

It's Simple, Even a Child, could Do it!

[Halcyon Dayz]

Tight turn is indeed not a good term.

What I mean is that if you can accelerate at 20g you can change
your vector a lot faster then when you can't take more than 8g.

[Jpax2003]

Ah, but the craft will need to pivot and thrust so the g forces could always be taken on the back or however it is safest for the crew. but consider raw accelertion too. A vessel could pivot 90º and thrust at x velocity or pivot 45º and thrust at 2x velocity to get the same effect.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Ah, but the craft will need to pivot and thrust so the g forces could always be taken on the back or however it is safest for the crew. but consider raw accelertion too. A vessel could pivot 90º and thrust at x velocity or pivot 45º and thrust at 2x velocity to get the same effect.

Not Exactly, it'd then have an Increased Acceleration, in the Forward Direction:


x
/\
x |
/\ |
This: |____> y As Opposed, to This: |____> y

[Jpax2003]

Well, if a craft is evading fire from a pursuer it could move in a perpendicular direction at one speed or make a less accute angle with an increased speed.. You're right it wouldn't be 45º, 30º I think for twice the speed.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Well, if a craft is evading fire from a pursuer it could move in a perpendicular direction at one speed or make a less accute angle with an increased speed.. You're right it wouldn't be 45º, 30º I think for twice the speed.

Yeah, that Sounds about Riight ...

I'd Just LOVE, to See a Game, that Actually Incorporates this Stuff!

With the Right Programmer, the Physics Engine, Would be Easy!!!

Hey Eburacum45, What's the ETA, on Freehauler, Now a Days?

[Daniel H.]

The Starfuries are nice, but the 4 wings are overly redundant.

(I assume the Starfury is designed for subsonic flight in atmosphere, as well as spaceflight?)

Wait, do you mean the four airfoils for the Starfury designs that have them are overly redundant, or the four wings with engines on them are overly redundant? Because the four engine design is part of what makes the Starfury an excellent space fighter craft. The airfoils were given to a later model as an acknowledgement that occasionally the fighters were going to need to enter an atmosphere for things like escorting a shuttle.

[Bilateralrope]

A droid fighter would have been able to make high-g turns.
The sharpest turns as allowed by engineering rather than biology.
<snip>
<snip>
It did bug me that ST essentially treated its capital ships as fighters, (eg the battle at Wolf 359 from the first episode of DS9). Artificial gravity or not, thats a lot of stress on a crew of 400+.

Remember that both star trek and star wars have inertial damper tech which can counter the g-forces produced by high turning and acceleration, providing that the g forces are predictable. As far as I can tell, the only important differences between the operations of artifical gravity and inertial dampers is that the dampers should be stronger, and much eaiser to alter their strength and direction. They would probably both be generated by the same system

[Bilateralrope]

Well, if a craft is evading fire from a pursuer it could move in a perpendicular direction at one speed or make a less accute angle with an increased speed.. You're right it wouldn't be 45º, 30º I think for twice the speed.

Yeah, that Sounds about Riight ...

I'd Just LOVE, to See a Game, that Actually Incorporates this Stuff!

With the Right Programmer, the Physics Engine, Would be Easy!!!

Hey Eburacum45, What's the ETA, on Freehauler, Now a Days?

When I first joined I asked for a list of such games in this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=385211&highlight=#385211). Some do exist

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Well, if a craft is evading fire from a pursuer it could move in a perpendicular direction at one speed or make a less accute angle with an increased speed.. You're right it wouldn't be 45º, 30º I think for twice the speed.

Yeah, that Sounds about Riight ...

I'd Just LOVE, to See a Game, that Actually Incorporates this Stuff!

With the Right Programmer, the Physics Engine, Would be Easy!!!

Hey Eburacum45, What's the ETA, on Freehauler, Now a Days?

When I first joined I asked for a list of such games in this thread (http://www.badastronomy.com/phpBB/viewtopic.php?p=385211&highlight=#385211). Some do exist

I Remember that Thread ...

Never could get that Babylon 5 Game to Work, though; Something about An OpenGL Problem ...

Anyway, I'm Downloading X-Plane, now!

[Bilateralrope]

Fighters serve the same purpose as Military Aircraft today do. After all you could ask what the point of Naval Aircraft is when you can park a destroyer off the coast and assualt the opponent into the stone age with Cruise missiles.

Also Fighters improve the numbers game. 50 fighters are harder to knock out than 1 capital ship. They also provide screens to stop bombing attacks, or for doing and protection for bombing runs on the opponent.

Finally just as with a Aircraft Carrier, they allow the fleet to attack an area without putting the major capital ships in harms way.

Using some sort of droid or distance controlled fighter might sound good, but they are vulnerable to jamming amongst other things.

Also, a fighter group can easily be in multiple places at once, unlike a captial ship which can only be in one place at a time.

I can't think of any sci-fi series that didn't have the armed forces using fighter craft, except for star trek.

[eburacum45]

Without inertia damping, a pilot becomes a liability in a space fighter; you would want them to have robot crews less subject to gee force problems.

Guided missiles, essentially, with an electronic brain.

The problem with intelligent robots is they are subject to the Dark Star effect;
you sometimes have to argue philosophy with them to get them to fight.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

Without inertia damping, a pilot becomes a liability in a space fighter; you would want them to have robot crews less subject to gee force problems.

Guided missiles, essentially, with an electronic brain.

The problem with intelligent robots is they are subject to the Dark Star effect;
you sometimes have to argue philosophy with them to get them to fight.

Ah ...

The Old, "Naw, they're Not People, they're Just The ENEMY!" Polemic, Riight?

Well, it Works on People, After All ...

So, as per My Earlier Question, How Goes Freehauler; Do you Guys, Have an ETA, Yet?

[Bilateralrope]

The problem with intelligent robots is they are subject to the Dark Star effect;
you sometimes have to argue philosophy with them to get them to fight.

If that happens, whoever programed them made a mistake and should probably be fired

[jamestox]

The problem with intelligent robots is they are subject to the Dark Star effect;
you sometimes have to argue philosophy with them to get them to fight.

If that happens, whoever programed them made a mistake and should probably be fired

Heh. Just remember - in the future, as it is in the present and was in the past, "Our brave young fighters are using weapons systems built by the lowest bidder. "

[Sock Munkey]

Why is it that everyone thinks that robots sophisticated enough for autonomous combat are going to be sophisticated enough for advanced philosophy 101?
The pinhead-sized brain of a bumblebee is able to handle takeoffs, landings, complex evasive manuvers, navigation, scouting, seeking out specific targets, attack, defense of it's home base, and friend-or-foe recognition out in the real world.
They do not sit around wondering if they should have free elections instead of a queen.

[Jpax2003]

Why is it that everyone thinks that robots sophisticated enough for autonomous combat are going to be sophisticated enough for advanced philosophy 101?
The pinhead-sized brain of a bumblebee is able to handle takeoffs, landings, complex evasive manuvers, navigation, scouting, seeking out specific targets, attack, defense of it's home base, and friend-or-foe recognition out in the real world.
They do not sit around wondering if they should have free elections instead of a queen.

I bet bumble bees don't wonder how they are able to fly because it violates physics either. :D

[Roy Batty]

Sounds like a load of clap fling to me 8)

[Daniel H.]

If the lowest bidder comes up with a combat AI that's not only sentient, but debates philosophy, then the contractor bid way to low.

[Gullible Jones]

Starfighters would probably be like UCAVs... Basically missiles with a combat-oriented AI, communication hardware, and ranged weapons. Cheap to manufacture, autonomous, light, fast, maneuverable, heavily armed, not afraid to kamakaze when necessary, and not intelligent, creative, or versatile enough to do anything other than what they're programmed for. They would be able to figure out what to do in most situations - form a defensive cloud around their capital ship, swarm the nearest targets, whatever - could communicate with each other and the capital ship to coordinate their movements, and, when things get hairy, could recieve specific orders from their capital ship.

[Lycus]

What about control via virtual reality? You'll have human pilots, but they'll be flying the ships from somewhere much more safe. If their ship gets destroyed, no big deal, they'll just take command of a new one.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

What about control via virtual reality? You'll have human pilots, but they'll be flying the ships from somewhere much more safe. If their ship gets destroyed, no big deal, they'll just take command of a new one.

Three Words:

Speed of Light!

Relativity's a Real Bummer ...

Huh?

[Halcyon Dayz]

Launch a squadron of fighters of which only one is manned.

The leader also commands the other fighters which have AI.
His own ship has AI too, so he can concentrate on tactics.
They should be indistinguishable from each other, and not accelerate
at more then 8g unless in combat.
The drones can be sent off individually or in groups to perform specific tasks.
Otherwise they follow and protect the leader, and attack the same target.

[Bilateralrope]

What about control via virtual reality? You'll have human pilots, but they'll be flying the ships from somewhere much more safe. If their ship gets destroyed, no big deal, they'll just take command of a new one.

What happens if they get jammed ?

[Nereth]

What about control via virtual reality? You'll have human pilots, but they'll be flying the ships from somewhere much more safe. If their ship gets destroyed, no big deal, they'll just take command of a new one.

What happens if they get jammed ?

I thought a lot about this question and came up with an idea that I am not entirely sure would work or not. First is it possible to disrupt a laser used to transfer information with the exception of just getting in the way. Since ships being able to move I dont see placing something in front of the receiver as a real viable option. Basic idea is you have one ship that is able to receive laser transmissions from smaller drone ships and vice versa. There would be a number of receivers on each ship to receive signals from any angle. The transmission lasers would be placed on small turrets as to beable to communicate with the mothership at any angle.

Anyways if you guys can poke holes in this idea be my guest any information you could provide would be much apriciated.

[Gullible Jones]

Yep, speed of light is a problem... And not the only one. At relativistic speeds, human pilots would be rendered useless - our reflexes are just not fast enough for stuff like that.

[Bilateralrope]

What about control via virtual reality? You'll have human pilots, but they'll be flying the ships from somewhere much more safe. If their ship gets destroyed, no big deal, they'll just take command of a new one.

What happens if they get jammed ?

I thought a lot about this question and came up with an idea that I am not entirely sure would work or not. First is it possible to disrupt a laser used to transfer information with the exception of just getting in the way. Since ships being able to move I dont see placing something in front of the receiver as a real viable option. Basic idea is you have one ship that is able to receive laser transmissions from smaller drone ships and vice versa. There would be a number of receivers on each ship to receive signals from any angle. The transmission lasers would be placed on small turrets as to beable to communicate with the mothership at any angle.

Anyways if you guys can poke holes in this idea be my guest any information you could provide would be much apriciated.

If someone manages to take out the control ship (which must be in line of sight) then the drones would become useless.

With all the junk flying aroud (enemy drones, your drones, wreckage, etc) chances are that something would cross over the beam, disuripting it for a small time. You would then have to restablish the link. If they go behind a large object (like anothe capital ship) the signal would be lost for a longer period of time, and if they don't go behind it the enemy has an eaiser time finding the control ship.

Also, if by chance, your beam hits an enemy sensor they would know which direction you are in (encryption could prevent them understanding what you actualy sent)

Sure, having various objects set up to realy the signal would reduce these problems, but each one owuld add some lag to the signal, and make it more complex as each drone would have to track multiple relays.

As for the sci-fi series that use pilots instead of AI's, I can't think of a single one where the pilots don't outpreform the AI's in piloting the fighters

[Nereth]

I actually thought just tossing a smoke bomb near the main ship may end up making it useless or better yet attaching something that could cloud the recievers with smoke although that might make a pretty interesting fight with ships manuvering to try and just communicate with eachother instead of just trying to gain a tactical advantage with position.

[PhantomWolf]

I actually thought just tossing a smoke bomb near the main ship may end up making it useless or better yet attaching something that could cloud the recievers with smoke although that might make a pretty interesting fight with ships manuvering to try and just communicate with eachother instead of just trying to gain a tactical advantage with position.

I'm not totally sure that a smoke bomb would have much effect in space.

[ChesleyFan]

I always thought some of the designs from the Colony Wars PSOne games were pretty cool...

[Nereth]

I actually thought just tossing a smoke bomb near the main ship may end up making it useless or better yet attaching something that could cloud the recievers with smoke although that might make a pretty interesting fight with ships manuvering to try and just communicate with eachother instead of just trying to gain a tactical advantage with position.

I'm not totally sure that a smoke bomb would have much effect in space.

Hrm... your right. Maybe if it was some kind of sticky substance, making me think of space paintball now. :lol:

[LewDux]

Hrm... your right. Maybe if it was some kind of sticky substance, making me think of space paintball now. :lol:
Raspberry jam :roll:

[HenrikOlsen]

I prefer the Stovepipe design from Niven and Pournelle's Footfall (http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/redirect?path=ASIN/0345323440&link_code=as2&camp=1789&tag=henrikolsen &creative=9325), perfectly realistic and buildable today.
Idea is, pull the main guns off a battleship, to each of them add autoloader, lifesupport for a few hours, maneuvering trusters, targeting radar, one volunteer(preferably with no family).
Pull a lot of them to intersecting orbit with an Orion type (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Project_Orion) carrier and let them loose, then watch the pretty lights.

[PhantomWolf]

Hrm... your right. Maybe if it was some kind of sticky substance, making me think of space paintball now. :lol:
Raspberry jam :roll:

There's only one man who would dare give me the raspberry; Lonestar!

[Sock Munkey]

At distances where the speed of light limit becomes a factor you can't effectively engage in battle with lasers because by the time the light from the target ship reaches you and the light from your laser reaches where it appears to be it will be long gone. Engaging in slight random easive manuvers makes a ship pretty much unhittable at distances greater than say, the orbit of mercury.

[Jpax2003]

At distances where the speed of light limit becomes a factor you can't effectively engage in battle with lasers because by the time the light from the target ship reaches you and the light from your laser reaches where it appears to be it will be long gone. Engaging in slight random easive manuvers makes a ship pretty much unhittable at distances greater than say, the orbit of mercury.

From what starting location, sun? Earth?

I think that battles may be fought from thousands of klicks but not millions.

[CMartin]

What about the great Moonbase Alpha Eagles. They at least LOOK like a real spacecraft. That was always my favorite as a kid- although just about any starfighter from any other movie could destroy them...

[Sock Munkey]

I was thinking of Mercury's orbit radius and a large capital ship for this example, allthough if your craft is small and agile a distance comparable to that of the Moon's orbit radius around the earth will do.

[Jpax2003]

I was thinking of Mercury's orbit radius and a large capital ship for this example, allthough if your craft is small and agile a distance comparable to that of the Moon's orbit radius around the earth will do.

This thread is about space fighters not capital ships.

[DukePaul]

If I must go to war please put me in an advanced prototype Gunstar. I want to look good in battle and that baby looks good.

[Sock Munkey]

The point of my posts was how close one would have to be to effectively engage in battle of any kind and to demonstrate that small quick fighters would usually be an asset over larger ships.

[Jpax2003]

The point of my posts was how close one would have to be to effectively engage in battle of any kind and to demonstrate that small quick fighters would usually be an asset over larger ships.

Ah, ok. But don't forget that the capital ships might have more powerful reactors to charge beam weapons, larger and more efficient propulsion, and better armor. However, I still think that fightercraft will have a place in space combat.