Never forget - Auschwitz liberation

[Swift]

Today marks the 60th anniversary of the liberation of Auschwitz. It is estimated that 1.5 million people died there. CNN.com (http://www.cnn.com/SPECIALS/2005/auschwitz/) has a special page marking the event.

[Krevel]

A friend of my dad's was amongst the troops who liberated some of the camps, although I don't think he was at Auschwitz. Even as a little boy, I was taken aback by his stories.

Few things make me more angry than those who would argue that the Holocaust was a hoax.

We should never, ever, forget. But for some people, it seems far too easy to forget rather than confront the reality.

[Paul Beardsley]

Few things make me more angry than those who would argue that the Holocaust was a hoax.

Agreed. The moon hoax people are annoying enough, but the Holocaust Deniers are orders of magnitude worse.

[Kristophe]

There will always be someone, somewhere, who wants to pick a fight with people about something. The important thing is that there are people who do not deny the holocaust, and they outnumber the holocause deniers.

[Tranquility]

It's a bit daft to deny an event with the historical significance of the holocaust, though I think most of the argument is not whether it actually happened or not, rather the scale at which is happened - whether the numbers were exaggerated or not.

[Swift]

There will always be someone, somewhere, who wants to pick a fight with people about something. The important thing is that there are people who do not deny the holocaust, and they outnumber the holocause deniers.
I guess, but by that argument, why do we fuss about the Moon landing HBs and the PXers? We outnumber them, we win, case closed. I suspect, that's not quite correct.

[Swift]

It's a bit daft to deny an event with the historical significance of the holocaust, though I think most of the argument is not whether it actually happened or not, rather the scale at which is happened - whether the numbers were exaggerated or not.
Maybe more than a bit daft, but most of the stuff I've seen or heard is actually an outright claim that it never happened, not some argument over how many died. I've always suspected that such claims are mostly motivated by "political" views and making history match those views, rather than a careful analysis of historic evidence.

[Argos]

A toast to liberty!

[zebo-the-fat]

We should never forget, but it is worth remembering that the victims were not only jews, disabled people, those with mental illness, homosexuals, gypsy's and negro's were also victims (maybe others as well).
The victimisation of the jews was not a sudden thing, it was a steady stream of little things which gradualy built up, (one day they were not permited bicycles, then they were not allowed to own a business etc.) This is one reason why I am alarmed by the british government deciding that it is ok to put people under the equivilant of house arrest because they are suspected terrorists. If you have evidence - take it to court and then lock them up, if there is no evidence leave them alone. What happened to "Innocent until proved guilty"? I fear it may be the start of a slippery slope - deeply worrying. :(

/end rant

[Laser Jock]

There will always be someone, somewhere, who wants to pick a fight with people about something. The important thing is that there are people who do not deny the holocaust, and they outnumber the holocause deniers.

Perhaps in the US, but there are parts of the world where it is "common knowledge" that the Holocaust is as "Zionist Lie". Look here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7100), here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 83104), and especially here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 78204). More links can be found (if you can stomach them) here (http://memri.org/antisemitism.html).

BTW, the site I've linked to (the Middle East Media Research Institute) is an extremely interesting site. Very educational.

[Doodler]

We should never forget, but it is worth remembering that the victims were not only jews, disabled people, those with mental illness, homosexuals, gypsy's and negro's were also victims (maybe others as well).
The victimisation of the jews was not a sudden thing, it was a steady stream of little things which gradualy built up, (one day they were not permited bicycles, then they were not allowed to own a business etc.) This is one reason why I am alarmed by the british government deciding that it is ok to put people under the equivilant of house arrest because they are suspected terrorists. If you have evidence - take it to court and then lock them up, if there is no evidence leave them alone. What happened to "Innocent until proved guilty"? I fear it may be the start of a slippery slope - deeply worrying. :(

/end rant


Something similar has been in effect in the US with high profile cases. Trial By Media. Basically, the media gets their hands on a hot case and slant it any which way but loose. Particularly celebrity and sex abuse.

One co-worker of my mother's spent time in prison in one locally hyped case where his daughter accused him. A year or so later, it came out that she was lying and made the accusation to get back at her father for some punishment or another. His reputation and credentials are still in shambles.

Another guy I know lost his security clearance because of false accusations that got hyped because of their nature. He never did get that back, even after the accusation was investigated and found to be so blatantly false that the woman ended up being charged with purjury.

Presumption of innocence is something of an oxymoron in my eyes anymore.

[Bad jcsd]

Perhaps in the US, but there are parts of the world where it is "common knowledge" that the Holocaust is as "Zionist Lie". Look here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7100), here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 83104), and especially here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 78204). More links can be found (if you can stomach them) here (http://memri.org/antisemitism.html).

BTW, the site I've linked to (the Middle East Media Research Institute) is an extremely interesting site. Very educational.

That's what I don't like, you're dragging 21st century politics into it.

MEMRI are a 'hasbara' site, i.e. basically an Israeli propaganda site. There are much better groups for the study of worldwide antisemtism that are not poltically motivated, for example the Vidal Sassoon Inetrnational Centre.

[Doodler]

More OT, while remembering these places and the nightmares that took place, uttering the words "Never Forget" as a mantra, one must remember that this isn't the only place the nightmare of genocide occurred, and that even today, there are places that are being "forgotten".

If "Never Again" is going to be more than a platitude, it has to reach farther than Europe, because it is happening again, and its approaching that same horrible level again.

[Tranquility]

I was just about to post on MEMRI. They're biased towards the Israeli side of Middle Eastern politics, quoting mostly articles that contain the worst possible quotes on the Arab/Muslim side. I won't delve too much into this since it's politics, but here's an article from The Guardian by Brian Whitaker regarding MEMRI, along with a rebuttal from the organization itself:

http://www.guardian.co.uk/elsewhere/journalist/story/0,7792,773258,00.html

We all feel bad for the Holocaust victims, but let's not turn this into a political argument, by quoting articles from a biased source. Also, people who question the story of the Holocaust are not only Muslims or Arabs. You said "parts of the world", but you only quoted a Middle Eastern news source.

[Laser Jock]

Perhaps in the US, but there are parts of the world where it is "common knowledge" that the Holocaust is as "Zionist Lie". Look here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=archives&Area=sd&ID=SP7100), here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 83104), and especially here (http://memri.org/bin/articles.cgi?Page=subjects&Area=antisemitism&ID=SP 78204). More links can be found (if you can stomach them) here (http://memri.org/antisemitism.html).

BTW, the site I've linked to (the Middle East Media Research Institute) is an extremely interesting site. Very educational.

That's what I don't like, you're dragging 21st century politics into it.

MEMRI are a 'hasbara' site, i.e. basically an Israeli propaganda site. There are much better groups for the study of worldwide antisemtism that are not poltically motivated, for example the Vidal Sassoon Inetrnational Centre.

I'm sorry if you took it that way. I will look into it more closely, but I would never have considered them a "propaganda site". They just translate things in the Middle East press. Now whether what they choose to translate is representative of the entire Middle East press, well, that's a separate question that I'm not really able to answer (Although I have been to Egypt briefly, and what I read on MEMRI is not all that different than what I saw in English-written Egyptian papers while I was there).

My point still stands (even if you don't like the source): anti-Semitism and holocaust denial is still a very real current problem in the Middle East. I do not have exact numbers, but I would guess that in many countries in that region, a majority of the citizens would deny the truth of the Holocaust. I find that very troubling.


We all feel bad for the Holocaust victims, but let's not turn this into a political argument, by quoting articles from a biased source. Also, people who question the story of the Holocaust are not only Muslims or Arabs. You said "parts of the world", but you only quoted a Middle Eastern news source.

You are correct; there are many besides these who would deny the holocaust. However, I was responding to Kristophe's assertion that the HD's are out numbered. I know of no other countries besides possibly ones in the middle-east where this may not be true. Thanks for the link, I will look into it more closely.

[Swift]

More OT, while remembering these places and the nightmares that took place, uttering the words "Never Forget" as a mantra, one must remember that this isn't the only place the nightmare of genocide occurred, and that even today, there are places that are being "forgotten".

If "Never Again" is going to be more than a platitude, it has to reach farther than Europe, because it is happening again, and its approaching that same horrible level again.
Absolutely. Genocides happened before WWII and happened after. That is what makes it so important, our species must constantly work to end this, IMHO.
This (http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/) website lists and links many during the 20th century

Bosnia-Herzegovina: 1992-1995 - 200,000 Deaths
Rwanda: 1994 - 800,000 Deaths
Pol Pot in Cambodia: 1975-1979 - 2,000,000 Deaths
Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths
Rape of Nanking: 1937-1938 - 300,000 Deaths
Stalin's Forced Famine: 1932-1933 - 7,000,000 Deaths
Armenians in Turkey: 1915-1918 - 1,500,000 Deaths

This (http://www.genocidewatch.org/internationalcampaign.htm) website lists this:

1.5 million Armenians. 3 million Ukrainians. 6 million Jews. 250,000 Gypsies. 6 million Slavs. 25 million Russians. 25 million Chinese. 1 million Ibos. 1.5 million Bengalis. 200,000 Guatemalans. 1.7 million Cambodians. 500,000 Indonesians. 200,000 East Timorese. 250,000 Burundians. 500,000 Ugandans. 2 million Sudanese. 800,000 Rwandans. 2 million North Koreans. 10,000 Kosovars. Genocides and other mass murders killed more people in the twentieth century than all the wars combined.

I really wonder about our species sometimes. :(

[Doodler]

More OT, while remembering these places and the nightmares that took place, uttering the words "Never Forget" as a mantra, one must remember that this isn't the only place the nightmare of genocide occurred, and that even today, there are places that are being "forgotten".

If "Never Again" is going to be more than a platitude, it has to reach farther than Europe, because it is happening again, and its approaching that same horrible level again.
Absolutely. Genocides happened before WWII and happened after. That is what makes it so important, our species must constantly work to end this, IMHO.

/bow

You read my intented message perfectly.

[Bad jcsd]

MEMRI aren't outright dishonest however they do have a poltical agenda (one that they originally stated, but they no longer do) and they have in the past robbed aritcle of thir context (for example a News story about Egypt trying to sue 'the Jews' for the theft of the cup in the bibilical story of Joseph, the story was a MEMRI translation of a spoof artcile in a ME paper howvere this context was not included and the sotry was reported in the western media as fact).

Certainly antisemtism is a probelm in the Middle east, I just don't think MEMRI is the best place to go to try to gauge the actual problem.

[Tranquility]

Anti-semitism is a problem indeed in the Middle East, but it's also present in Europe. I can't remember how many times I read about racist chants in European stadiums against either blacks or Africans or Jews, etc.
OTOH anger towards Jews in the Middle East is an inability to differentiate between Jews and Israelis. I mean I expect there to be some sort of animosity between certain Arabs (particularly Palestinians) against Israelis because of the ongoing problems in Palestine, but the problem is the lack of understanding that Israel, being a state, is not a wholesome representation of Judaism. As a result, animosity towards Israel mutates into general anti-semitism which can lead to beliefs such as the denial of the Holocaust (which as mentioned was not only against Jews).

[Maha Vailo]

Sad stuff. I wish I could do something to prevent genocide and anti-Semitism from happening again. How do I change the nations that are doing such things into loving, caring, kind nations? What is the exact process by which hatred is turned into love in this world.

Anybody have any ideas?

- Maha " :cry: " Vailo

[Richard of Chelmsford]

A friend of my dad's was amongst the troops who liberated some of the camps, although I don't think he was at Auschwitz. Even as a little boy, I was taken aback by his stories.

Few things make me more angry than those who would argue that the Holocaust was a hoax.

We should never, ever, forget. But for some people, it seems far too easy to forget rather than confront the reality.

Of course we should never ever forget, but we will.

We've already forgotten the Russian Great Purges, which killed SIX TIMES the number which the Holocaust killed.

Plus the genocide last century in China.

Plus the American murder victims of the year 2001 which accounted for TEN TIMES the number of those killed in 911.

Never forget? :^o

[Swift]

Sad stuff. I wish I could do something to prevent genocide and anti-Semitism from happening again. How do I change the nations that are doing such things into loving, caring, kind nations? What is the exact process by which hatred is turned into love in this world.

Anybody have any ideas?

- Maha " :cry: " Vailo
Those are the big questions. I don't suspect we'll come up with the answers. All we can do are our little parts. Support organizations that promote understanding, support political leaders who do the same, and in your daily life act accordingly to your fellow humans. Even this board is a little of that - here are people from around the world, discussing all kinds of things, and keeping it polite. Maybe its a start.

Richard of Chelmsford, I don't think "Never forget" is a lie(you used the :^o ). You are right, we will forget. Or we will never even learn of some of the terrible things. But as I said to Maha, we can do our parts to see that such things are not repeated. Will they.... of course, I've lived among my fellow humans for too long to think otherwise. But I like the alternative to trying (not trying) even less. :-?

[Richard of Chelmsford]

OK.

[farmerjumperdon]

I'm not sure there is a solution; worse yet, I don't think we've even figured out the problem. Best I've seen yet are descriptions of the symptoms. It seems that every party, faction, nation, state, etc. that has ever come to a station that allows them to abuse power for the sake of material or political gain, . . . has done so. Not to be overly dark, ominous, or pessimistic; but it could be a flaw in our species. Perhaps a genetic mutation in the process of our speciation. How else can it be that we have ascended to a position that allows us, more than any other creature & perhaps as the only creature, to contemplate our existence, to think totally in the abstract, to vision far into the future; and yet we can not seem to halt mass murder stemming from racial hatred and greed for resources. There might not be a solution.

[Gillianren]

Nazi Holocaust: 1938-1945 - 6,000,000 Deaths

I knew this number was going to appear. this is an inaccurate number--no, it's not too high. it's too low.

this number only counts Jews. and yes, it is a horrible thing that 6,000,000 of one ethnic/religious group was slaughtered, and a mere 100,000 Gypsies doesn't approach it. but my research, and I did a lot of research (I did a speech on Gentiles in the concentration camps for Academic Decathlon when I was in hs), indicates that as many as 6,500,000 Gentiles were killed in the Holocaust--and no, that figure doesn't include deaths due to the war itself.

yes, okay, I'm really touchy on this subject. my great-grandmother was a Gypsy. (Romany, if you want to be precise, and, if I've located her home region properly, from Transylvania.) this means that I almost certainly have relatives killed in the woods and buried in mass graves. Gypsies didn't usually make it into the camps.

[Brady Yoon]

We should never forget, but it is worth remembering that the victims were not only jews, disabled people, those with mental illness, homosexuals, gypsy's and negro's were also victims (maybe others as well).
The victimisation of the jews was not a sudden thing, it was a steady stream of little things which gradualy built up, (one day they were not permited bicycles, then they were not allowed to own a business etc.) This is one reason why I am alarmed by the british government deciding that it is ok to put people under the equivilant of house arrest because they are suspected terrorists. If you have evidence - take it to court and then lock them up, if there is no evidence leave them alone. What happened to "Innocent until proved guilty"? I fear it may be the start of a slippery slope - deeply worrying. :(

/end rant

I am beginning to see Anti-Muslim propaganda in schools. Innocent people are being made fun of as terrorists and the such.

And the conflict between Jews and Muslims has seen no improvement, and Anti-Americanism is everywhere.

It's distressing how much hate there still is. I sincerely hope that Bush's policies will alleviate the problems. I don't want my children growing up in a world full of hate and anger. The past generations have paid enough blood for that. :(

[farmerjumperdon]

I don't see how the Bush administration can possibly be seen as contributing to world peace, or a more peaceful world. And it is not just him. Those in power in our country practice situational ethics, always have. Whatever is best for them at the moment, which usually means whatever will generate the most short to mid-term profits, is deemed as the best thing to do.

We have brought down governments, assassinated leaders, installed puppet regimes, replaced them when they disobeyed orders, and in general behaved like every other world power in past history. Our leaders are either so short-sighted they don't see the pattern (making them grossly incompetent as leaders), or they just figure why shouldn't we have our turn? Every other powerhouse in history got to take their turn at stomping on everybody before they were eventually brought in line. Why not the U.S.? Just consider it part of the natural cycle of one of our species predominant behavioral characteristics.

Funny that so many think we will be indefinitely invincible. For how many centuries did some of our predecessors think they too were invulnerable? We've only been around for 2 centuries, and only ascended to the top of the heap in the last 50 to 70 years. But we are following the same pattern. We are the most wasteful, most greedy, most susceptble society to the flavor-of-the-day / throw-away / I want it now - I want it cheap - I want it perfect propoganda that come out of Madison Avenue yet. (Was that a sentence?).

We are repeating the past on an unprecedented scale and with unprecedented efficiency. Nothing is too sacred and nothing will be left unprofited from. I hope when the ride is over, someone has learned something. It will be such a waste if it just leads into the next ring of the spiral.

[Lurker]

Since this country was founded, each generation of Americans has been summoned to give testimony to its national loyalty. The graves of young Americans who answered the call to service surround the globe. Now the trumpet summons us again... not as a call to bear arms, though arms we need. . .

not as a call to battle... though embattled we are. . .but a call to bear the burden of a long twilight struggle. . .year in and year out, rejoicing in hope, patient in tribulation. . .a struggle against the common enemies of man: tyranny. . .poverty. . .disease. . .and war itself.

-- John F. Kennedy


I don't know.... I could have backed this effort...

I don't see the point of all the hate though...

[Maha Vailo]

Well then, why do people hate? How can hate be turned to love, both between individuals and between ethnic groups? What is the exact process by which hatred becomes love? How can I become a more loving person myself, and how I can I spread it to others? How do I know which organizations and politicians work to promote understanding?

All these questions are important to the story I'm writing, so please answer them thoroughly (and preferably optimisticallly).

I'm afraid that if we cannot put and end to hatred, hatred will put an end to us, so please help me in any way you can. The world can't wait.

- Maha Vailo

[farmerjumperdon]

Hate and anger are just manifestations of fear. Racial hatred is all based on fear. It may truly be fear of the unknown, or it may be based on some perception, accurate or not. Again, I believe it may be part of our genetic survival make-up. How else do you explain the incredible greed and gluttony demonstrated by so many different cultures over the course of history. And the ease with which we justify killing each other if it means access to cheap resources. Does anyone think we are involved in the Middle Eaast for anything other than cheap oil? We are so willing to invade countries and do dastardly things to anybody that threatens our supply lines. Does anybody else see the hypocrisy? We ignore genocide on the scale of hundreds of thousands or even millions, then invade Iraq to knock off a 2-bit dictator like Hussein, who just happens to be sitting on top of the world's 2nd largest reserve of oil. All the while making up some convoluted and ever-changing pack of lies about why we did it. Despicable. And it appears at least a majority of Americans are buying it. Yeah, sometimes I worry about our species too.

[Swift]

Well then, why do people hate?
I think a lot of it is "taught", that is, you pick it up at a young age from parents, friends, etc. There is a song from the musical South Pacific that discusses this..

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!

I think farmerjumperdon is right that a lot of hate comes from fear, including fear of the unknown (unknown cultures, unknown beliefs). I was lucky as a child that my parents belonged to the Society for Ethical Culture and I went to their Sunday school. We learned comparative religions and cultures, with the belief that the more you know about others, the more you can understand them and be tolerant of differences.

I think that when you understand the people you hate as actual people, and not as abstracts concepts, you can become more tolerant and understanding too. I applaud programs where, for example, Arab and Israeli teenagers meet each other in person.

[Lurker]

I think a lot of it is "taught", that is, you pick it up at a young age from parents, friends, etc. There is a song from the musical South Pacific that discusses this..

You've got to be taught before it's too late,
Before you are six or seven or eight,
To hate all the people your relatives hate,
You've got to be carefully taught!


I forget now... is it the Jesuits who say:

'Give us a boy until the age of six, and he is ours for life'
This is not about religion, it's about influence. I think Swift is right. We teach our children in the early years. We teach other children through the influence our children have on other children. We are the influence that makes the difference.

I will admit that when Rose first told me she was Iranian, I had more than a few gut level negative reactions. Since those first days, she has told me that she felt some of the same. Today if it were allowed, I would gladly trade my health for her illness, the world needs gentle spirits like hers.

We are taught, but we can still learn...

[farmerjumperdon]

Absolutely correct. What's the saying? "Kids are like wet cement. Whatever lands on them makes an impression." Imagine the impressions that are made to the average kid growing up in an industrialized, high-tech, media intensive environment such as what exists in most industrialized nations. It's amazing anybody matures into well adjusted adults.

[Gillianren]

when I was in high school, I read about a study that proved that chimpanzee babies learn to fear what their parents show a fear reaction to. (my speech coach wouldn't let me use this study; she said I was calling homophobic judges monkeys.) the real reason the Nazis, just as an example, got away w/their atrocities was that Jews, Gypsies, et al, had been persecuted to a greater or lesser extent in those regions for, in many cases, centuries. the first step is to identify your own fears. the second is to work to overcome them. the third, and I think most important, is to avoid instilling them in your children.

[Maha Vailo]

All well and good, Gillianren, but how do I identify my fears and work to eliminate them? I don't have children to spread tolerance to (if only I knew how), but can I use my friends instead?

Also, no seems to have gone in detail as how ethnic groups might go from hate to love. I really need some help with the backstory of my future-Balkans story, and I'm stuck.

- Maha Vailo

[JohnD]

All,
The reasons or not for humans doing this to each other have been discussed, and I'm none the wiser. Another aspect that puzzles me is that ever since photographs have been available, and movies, the perpetrators have taken pictures of their victims being tortured.

The Nazis did and right up to date, in Iraq, the people who mistreat prisoners take photographs. (British and Americans - no political point) Surely they don't expect to pass these around in the pub, or even among friends when they get home? And get away with it?
The British soldier who took such pics is on trial because he took the roll of film to his local photo development shop, whose staff took it straight to the police - he just didn't think that his and his platoon's actions could be considered unacceptable.
Is it just trophies, a modern equivalent of scalps or shrunken heads?

John

[Gillianren]

All well and good, Gillianren, but how do I identify my fears and work to eliminate them? I don't have children to spread tolerance to (if only I knew how), but can I use my friends instead?

Also, no seems to have gone in detail as how ethnic groups might go from hate to love. I really need some help with the backstory of my future-Balkans story, and I'm stuck.

ask yourself who you say you hate. analyze your behavior. that's the best answer I've got for you. even look at when you feel uncomfortable around people, why do you feel uncomfortable?

ethnic groups can only change when the individuals w/in them make a concious effort to change. the same is true of political and sociological groups. there is no answer beyond each person trying to make the change.

I do think it's possible to influence other people if you show them where they are showing a negative reaction. however, they have to be willing to be influenced, which takes a certain degree of open-mindedness in the first place.

[Maha Vailo]

ethnic groups can only change when the individuals w/in them make a concious effort to change. the same is true of political and sociological groups. there is no answer beyond each person trying to make the change.

So, what prompts individuals to make this change? And what is the process by which they change?

- Maha (am I asking too many questions?) Vailo

[Gillianren]

So, what prompts individuals to make this change? And what is the process by which they change?

- Maha (am I asking too many questions?) Vailo

no, no, asking questions is part of the process. in fact, I think that's what prompts individuals to change--saying, "why are things the way they are? how can we make them different?" and the process of change is the process of asking questions.

[farmerjumperdon]

Individuals change for 2 reasons:

1 - The pain of the status quo becomes greater than the perceived pain of some other alternative; and . . .

2 - Thru the living of new experiences.

I believe Gillianren stated that society or groups change only because the individuals within change. That is exactly correct, or as the saying goes - The world changes one funeral at a time. But seriously, meaningful change only occurs at the individual level, and we resist change as if it were death itself, when in actuality the fact that something has the potential to initiate change may be the very definition of life.

Anyway, change in the flavor of #1 comes about because of a personal desire from within to live a different future state. It is change initiated based on an internal vision of the self. That's really glossing over it, but I want to focus on #2.

Flavor #2 is where relationships and influence of others are more important. Change still can only occur at the individual level, and at the will of the individual, but is initiated because of an experience created through a relationship. The mission of a change agent is to create new experiences, which will change people's beliefs, which gives them new rules to live by, which will cause them to generate new behaviors, provide them with a different result, reinforcing the new belief. Their new behaviors lead to them creating new experiences for others, and so on and so forth. This is a variant on the Franklin Reality Model (FRM).

Using the FMR as a springboard, I've taken to creating charts & graphs as a means of modeling what I see as the drivers of human behavior. One of the credos of what I currently call Models for Effective Living is that there be No Judgement, lest you want the conversation to end. If there is no conversation, there can be no understanding. If you can't talk about a thing, you can never change it. This is going to get way too long quickly, so I'll cut to the end.

What you can do to effect change is to provide others with new experiences that will provide them with new possibilities for interacting with the world.

Given the choice between changing and proving they do not have to; 95% of the people get busy working on the proof.

[Maha Vailo]

Very nice explanation, farmerjumperdon. But now I have 3 more questions:

1. Could you explain #1 in a little more detail? You only "glossed over it," as you said.

2. Could you describe the Franklin Reality Model, your charts and graphs, and your "Models for Effective Living" in a lot more detail (and I mean a lot more detail!)? You've piqued my curiosity.

and 3. How am I to provide these new experiences for interacting in new ways to my fellow countrymen?

That was a very well-done post. Keep up the good work! =D>

- Maha Vailo

[farmerjumperdon]

OK then, but I better go home to do that.

[Maha Vailo]

OK then, but I better go home to do that.

How long will it be before you can go home to explain all this? I'm not impatient, just curious.

- Maha Vailo

[farmerjumperdon]

Alrighty Maha Vailo, you asked for it. Here goes. Hope expectations are not more than I can meet in a simple post.

First, a little background. I’m a charts & graphs (C&G) guy by nature. Formal education is PoliSci, Geography, & Econ. Goes w/o saying I’m a visual learner. I’m an organization freak, up to, but not quite to the point of being anal (some friends would disagree). My philosophy is that every thing has it’s place and purpose, every person has something to contribute (those 2 could be one and the same), and that everything that is knowable can be found out by seeking to understand.

I have always had an insatiable appetite for why people do the things they do. It boggled my mind from a very early age that there was so much pain and suffering being caused unto people by other people. It did not seem very reasonable to kill people for reasons that could easily be turned around and used against you. No logic to it at all. So I became a student of human behavior at a very young age. I think by 4th grade I was totally consumed by class distinctions, separatist behavior, elitist attitudes, and in general the really nasty way people often treated each other. Then, in my teenage years an interesting set of circumstances forced me to deal with racial hatred (my own) in my old stomping grounds on the South Side of Chicago. Suddenly, what was an academic obsession became a personal reality.

I spent the next few years knocking around, crusading in my reckless, youthful manner whenever I could against what I saw as the myths behind racial hatred. This mostly took the form of ranting and raving at whoever would stand still long enough to listen. When I finally went back to school it served to reinforce my beliefs and put a nice formal framework around what I had been feeling; especially my studies in philosophy, geography, and history. The most valuable things I learned were how people learn and how to objectively observe and model processes.

Shortly after graduation, I got exposed to several things that just really clicked for me:

 Exposure to a leadership tool called The Franklin Reality Model (FRM). Very interesting approach to understanding basic human needs and how those needs drive behaviors. Of all the management training I got “volunteered” for, this was the best, and the only one that was a new way of seeing.
 Volunteer work with wayward teens. I knew it was going to be a wild ride when I arrived at my 1st assignment early (teacher not in room) and the 1st conversation I overheard was a discussion on the distinction between a parole officer and a probation officer.
 Taking a couple courses from an organization called Landmark Education. A fairly radical approach to studying Those Darn Humans. It is loosely based on some of the 60’s era schools of self-examination, but very well thought out, disciplined, and mature. None of the mystical or pop-psych junk.

So I’m doing my schtick with the kids. It’s a program for kids the system has pretty much written off. A desperate last chance attempt to at least get them a diploma and try to prepare them for “the real world.” My job was to impress upon them the importance of financial preparedness. Stuff like savings, insurance, planning, etc. They are literally falling asleep in their chairs, and who can blame them? I’m just another suit rambling on about things with which they can not even identify. Obviously, I’m not making a difference.

On day 3 (it was an 8 week assignment) I walk in and say something like “Who wants to talk about health care financing, . . . and who wants to talk about who we are, what we are, and how we got the way we are, and how we ended up here, today, right now, in this room? Who wants to fill out another job application, . . . and who wants to learn the secrets to Life, the Universe, and Everything?” (I steal material on a very regular basis).

Ohmygod! We had the most amazing conversations. We talked about being honest with your self about your self, being honest with others, integrity, the games we run on people, relationships, possibilities versus probabilities, basic human needs, hierarchies of needs accountability, visioning the future, and a whole boatload of other topics and tools I invented or pirated over the previous 20 years of my being a student of human behavior. We talked about the effectiveness of robbing the local Taco Bell, getting knocked up at the age of 15, smoking cigarettes, abusing drugs, alcohol, or other people, and all sorts of other behaviors. The emphasis was to seek to understand why each behavior was chosen.

It was awesome, but I figured there would be a 50% chance I would not be let back in the door. It turned out the feedback from the kids was very positive. So I started writing it all down and continue developing the concepts. It is so far an 80-page manuscript I call Models for Effective Living (M4EL).

The basic concept is that all humans act out, with all good intent, behaviors they think will meet their perceived needs. The only exception granted is for people who lack a fundamental awareness of their personal capabilities and limitations. Awareness of the self, and of the self’s needs are of course a critical requirement for effective behavior. Those without the ability to recognize their own needs, capabilities, or limitations must be taken care of by others; and I am very stingy at granting that exception. Those who are capable of self-awareness know their limits and must consider them in their choices.

I’m not a formally trained therapist or counselor, which IMO is not necessary for anything but the most troubled people. What I am gifted at is facilitating honest conversations. The cornerstone of those conversations is No Judgement. Labeling someone as bad or wrong only serves to end any meaningful dialog. Passing judgement damages the relationship, causes barriers to go up, the conversation to close down, and the topic shifts to something superficial like the weather or sports. As the old saying goes, if you can’t talk about it, you can’t fix it.

Being honest about your deepest held principles does make most people feel vulnerable. It requires trust that you will not be judged. Radical Honesty (another great read) is not a license to be hurtful. A relationship is also necessary because the conversations often become confrontational. What is to be confronted however, is the effectiveness of the behavior and the belief that is driving it. Having a meaningful dialog about a behavior, and illustrating that it will not lead to a preferred vision of the future; or better yet, giving real life examples of it’s ineffectiveness is one way a change agent generates new experiences for people. Those new and different experiences are how principles get altered, and how individuals change. It is a slow process.

While this has been quite a rant for a post, it is painfully brief in trying to communicate the topic at hand, and leaves it open to dangerous levels of interpretation. So much should be included. Thank you for the interest. Someday if enough people are interested, I may sell a few books. Until then I’ll continue to enjoy coaching teenagers in examining the effectiveness of their behaviors.

Oh, and the C&Gs. Being a visual learner, I find that new concepts are much easier to learn when they come in picture form. When the topics at hand are so esoteric, pictures help most everybody. This was confirmed when I wrote some articles for a company newsletter. So I started modeling the concepts into C&Gs. I’ve got a light cone diagram that has experiences in the past, visioning in the future (as well as a few other minor features) that I call the Possibility/Probability Diagram. I’ve got a pie chart that pokes fun at the What you know – What you don’t know – What you don’t know you don’t know model. I’ve put my own spin and additions on the FRM, though I bet it would still be a copyright infringement.

OK, enough. I know you want more detail, but in the book it takes 10 pages just to get the ball rolling.

And the standard ending: Don’t smoke, unless you want to spend the rest of your life trying to quit; finish high school, if for no other reason that it is your last shot at free education; and use your heart and your brain to set yourself upon a definite major purpose and go to work on it, . . . Right Now, Right Where You Stand.

(My guess is that most BABBlers can scratch off the middle item).
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[Maha Vailo]

Now I'm even more confused. I still feel I'm still in the dark about how change occurs and how it turns hate to love, both among individuals and groups.

Farmerjumperdon, is it possible to transcribe your manuscripts into a .pdf file (for instance) and E-mail it to me so I can use it as research material? It's pretty useless to describe a concept to someone who doesn't have access to the original notes.

Also, can anyone other than farmerjumperdon give me advice/help/inspiration regarding changing hate to love? I appreciate getting input from many sources.

- Maha Vailo

[farmerjumperdon]

OK. An application of the concept to a theoretical situation.

Let's say I know someone who scribbled racial slurs on a bathroom wall, then got caught doing it, by the leader of their racial peer group. Oh hell, this is going to get way too complicated. I'm just going to paste the article here. It appears to be just us posting anyway at this point.

Models for Effective Living – Part IX
The End of an –Ism

I spent most of my youth in a racially charged environment. As early as I can remember, the basis for every joke and insult I heard from the adults around me were about race or ethnicity. They were the experiences that led to beliefs that would take years to show themselves as ineffective adult behaviors.

In a series of moves that involved skipping around the inner and outer ring suburbs and finally landing us in the super-boonies,* we lived in 5 very different places by the time I was 10. There was one similarity however; all were very segregated environments. My exposure to people of other races was negligible. High school graduation was with a class of about 500, and there were 3 or 4 non-white kids, . . . I think. Can’t even be sure because I had NO interaction with them at all. My world was 99% white and 1% ignored.

The funny thing is, (funny weird, not funny ha-ha), I had no negative experiences to justify my belief that blacks were bad and to be avoided. All my filters were the result of what other people believed. I had built up a solid wall of beliefs based solely on other people’s beliefs. This is the very essence of dogma, a belief that can only be supported by itself. Similar to the beliefs that support addiction, it is also the hardest kind of belief to dislodge. It is a tautology, a mirror reflecting in another mirror, stubbornly refusing to let in anything more than it’s own image of itself. Even if I would’ve had an isolated negative experience with a black individual, I’m certain it would have served to further solidify my beliefs about all black people.

My beliefs did not appear, at that time, to be a hindrance to me. That changed dramatically when I entered the working world. One of my first jobs was at a GE factory that manufactured kitchen equipment for restaurants. The workforce was about 50/50, black and white. People were at least superficially friendly most of the time, but there were underlying tensions in exportable quantities.

I quickly fell into a peer group of employees that felt comfortable; which means they were mostly male, mostly late teens to early 30’s, and all white. I did strike up conversations with a couple of black men – Eric, in his mid twenties; and Milt, who to me seemed really old at the time but was probably about 50. As rewarding as these individual relationships were to me, they were strangely subservient to the uneasy and superficial group to group relationship between the whites and the blacks. These contradictory beliefs (that black people were to be avoided and that Eric and Milt were becoming my friends) were the seeds that would force me to do some soul-searching.

Part of belonging to any peer group is to act out behaviors that demonstrate your shared values. A common behavior in our plant was to cover the walls with graffiti. Not the artistic kind that can take the form of beautiful murals; this was nasty, ugly stuff laden with profanity and racial slurs. Naturally, I joined in on the game. Then one day I got caught big time with my pants down, literally! I was in the can, taking care of business, and decided the stall door needed some fresh graffiti. So I outlined and colored in a short and very nasty bit of lowbrow wisdom. I made it big and bold to cover the previous expressions of others that had been there before me.

Then it happened. As I finished my contribution to the wall of unfounded hate, I heard someone leave the room! In my aggressive coloring activity the marker was squeaking so loudly I had not heard the person enter. Busted! But by who? Uncertain of whom had come and gone, and of whether or not they knew who was in the stall, I went uneasily about my business the rest of the morning and early afternoon. I thought I might have escaped identification, and was swearing to myself over and over that I would never do it again.

One of my duties as the Materials Handler for the machine shop was to take everybody’s snack and beverage order at morning and afternoon break, and bring the goodies down to the department on a cafeteria cart. These were the two times each day when everyone in the area was gathered together for a few minutes. That afternoon it was also one of those times that I would find out who my friends really were.

Using the models, let’s examine the situation described so far. I grew up harboring some very strong racist beliefs. Those beliefs were the result of experiences (interactions) with the adults in my life. The behavior generated by those beliefs served to solidify my standing with my peers. This was very effective at meeting one of the four basic human needs, to belong.** Those beliefs also created filters through which I saw everything, filters which added meaning where there wasn’t any, which modified the view to fit my biased assumptions, and that distorted the scenery and kept me from seeing and thinking as clearly as possible.

There were also contradictions starting to crop up. One of the Seven Natural Laws of Human Behavior is that the mind abhors contradictions (once they are recognized as such). When contradictions are brought to the conscious mind, something has got to give. We are forced to reconcile the differences. Either my racist beliefs had no foundation, or Eric and Milt were not my friends; there was no room in a sane mind for such a fundamental contradiction.

Back to the story. I arrive back in the department with the afternoon snacks. Everyone is gathering around, picking up their goodies, and someone makes casual mention of the bold new graffiti in the men’s room. I’m trying not to meet anyone’s eyes when I hear a loud voice, “You did that one didn’t you Donny Dark?”, (a nickname from one of the movies of the time). I look up and am shocked to see that the person letting everyone know of my deed is Rick. He is the informal leader of the white guys, and he is announcing to everyone that I am the author of the latest and largest racial slur adorning the bathroom walls. I’ve never been so embarrassed in my life - before that or ever since.

As people started drifting away from the food pick-up area I caught a glance from Eric. He was just shaking his head in disbelief and was obviously very disappointed in me. Rick had trotted away looking almost gleeful. He seemed oddly happy with what he had done. When I finally raised my head, the only person still there was Milt. He seemed sad, but also had a look of understanding and wisdom. He looked me right in the eye and in a fatherly manner asked, “Do you really mean what you wrote in there?” In what was still a very sheepish tone I replied that I did not. It seemed strange at the time to hear myself saying that I did not believe what I had scrawled on the wall. How could anyone, including myself, be certain I was being truthful and not just saying what someone wanted to hear? The answer is that I had just been stripped bare, cut to the bone, and laid wide open by the very person to whom I was seeking approval. I was mentally traumatized and, at that moment, not even capable of deception. (This strikes me as similar to some of the techniques used to gain a confession from a criminal).

Bringing the model back to bear again, let’s take a look at more of what was happening. Uncovering Rick’s behavior is interesting. He and I were both striving to meet the need of belonging, to feel important. My way was to act out behavior that I thought would gain approval in my peer group. His way was to put me down as a way of making himself even more important. I was looking for friendship, and found it where I least expected. He was looking to reinforce his importance, and was willing to sacrifice a naïve young follower to do so.

It is very tempting to pass judgement on the parties involved; Rick and myself. However, in an ironic twist, doing so would only expose the filters of those passing judgement. Any labeling of right and wrong immediately draws a line of division, reduces or eliminates communication, and guarantees reconciliation will not happen (in the form of growth by one party or another). Achieving maximum effectiveness at building relationships and influencing change (in other words, being effective at living), requires dropping judgement and accepting people for who they are. It demands recognition that everyone does the best they can to meet their perceived needs based on what they believe to be true.

Milt knew this. Through the wisdom of his age and experience, he knew that the most effective way to influence change (growth) was by building a relationship and nurturing trust. He did that not by passing judgement, but by providing an experience that challenged my existing beliefs. Faced with fundamentally contradicting beliefs, I was forced to make a choice. I had to reconcile my belief that black people were bad and not to be trusted with the new experiences I had been a part of with Milt, Eric, and Rick. I made a choice, which to this day, remains one of the defining and unforgettable moments of my life.

*The boonies are anyplace outside of the contiguous urban development known as the suburbs. For super-boonies, think gravel roads.
**A quick recap of the 4 basic needs – survival, belonging, love, and stimulus.