Would We Mistake Signals from ET?

[ToSeek]

Would We Mistake Signals from ET? (http://www.universetoday.com/am/publish/mistake_et_signals.html?2122004)


Researchers from the University of Michigan think that the current programs to search for extraterrestrial intelligence (SETI) might not be able to distinguish signals from the noise of nearby stars. They showed how an efficient message sent through radio waves is nearly indistinguishable from the ordinary thermal radiation coming from stars. If extraterrestrial civilizations have been transmitting for a long time, they'll probably have optimized their communications to save power, and so we won't recognize it when we hear it.

[Ilya]

That's nothing new. Contrary to the popular belief, SETI is not looking for "leakage" from ET civilizations, but for deliberate signals, designed to be as conspicuous as possible.

[N C More]

Well, if this is true then it could explain why SETI has found "zip". The concluding sentence says it well:


Said Newman: "Our message is that, even for the people who do believe this, they're probably wasting their time. If they did pick up a signal from little green men, it would probably look like a star to them and they would just pass over it and move on to the next thing."


Maybe we've just been "passing them by"? :o

[Evan]

I think it would be pretty hard to miss Earth for a very long distance. The Pave-Paws phased array radars put out continous 500 kw tight beams on 420-450 mhz aimed at the sky, 24/7. Should stand out like a light house. We should try looking on similar frequencies.

[ZaphodBeeblebrox]

I think it would be pretty hard to miss Earth for a very long distance. The Pave-Paws phased array radars put out continous 500 kw tight beams on 420-450 mhz aimed at the sky, 24/7. Should stand out like a light house. We should try looking on similar frequencies.

Only Problem is, such Searches would ONLY find Aliens, with a Martial History, and not those, with More Peaceful Intentions.

Also, such groups are NOT Exactly My Idea of First Contact, Material.

Hmmm ... Perhaps that's WHY, No One, has Discovered Us; Simply Put, they Don't Want to ...

[Evan]

Well, if they are within 24 ly of us then they have the opportunity to discover us (PavePaws began operating in 1980). I think such a civilization would be the most interesting to talk to as they would likely be the most like us. It isn't likely they will come here and kick our butt.

[Russ]

Personnally, I think SETI and similar efforts are pointless. We can't even communicate effectively with other species on our own planet. What makes us think we can recognize communication that is from creatures that are, biologically and evelutionarily speaking, TOTALLY unrelated to us?

Get a meaningful conversation going with dolphins or elephants and I'll reconsider my position.

Yeah, yeah, I know, your dog does what you tell him. All that means is that he was smart enough to learn your language and you weren't smart enough to learn his. :wink: :lol:

[Chip]

...radars put out continuous 500 kw tight beams on 420-450 mhz aimed at the sky, 24/7. Should stand out like a light house. We should try looking on similar frequencies.Only Problem is, such Searches would ONLY find Aliens, with a Martial History, and not those, with More Peaceful Intentions...Perhaps that's WHY, No One, has Discovered Us; Simply Put, they Don't Want to ...

Known as the "We're the Klingons" theory. (In many ways we are.) But I think they are so alien that our concepts of 'warlike' and 'peaceful' probably don't apply.

Perhaps one way to distinguish alien signals from stars, if such signals exist and are akin to what is described in the article, would be to construct in concept a Bletchley Park Style Enigma-Bombe simulation Decipher Computer. (Except without the Poles helping with knowledge of the mechanical design.)

http://www.gchq.gov.uk/about/bletchley.html

In short, like the code-breakers of WWII, search for a presumed alien "crib" - by way of analogy, an encrypted signal (at first indistinguishable from normal star noise) whose hidden pattern is assumed or simply guessed, based on patterns of organization.

Not talking about hidden 'messages' that we can understand - (which is what the Bletchley Park people were after,) but rather just patterns emerging from the noise, realized by constructing a series of possible mathematical patterns (a "bombe") within a presumed (guessed) "crib" pattern.

What I'm talking about is somewhat along the mindset of building what we guess might be an alien pattern while receiving actual raw data deciphered through every possible combination. Deciphering by presumption.

To modify an analogy: A million monkeys with headphones on, typing in a room, all trained to respond to the five most numerous patterns in nature. Then over the headphones comes someone reading Mark Twain, or James Joyce, the comics from the Sunday paper or playing Beethoven' 5th. The monkeys won't retype these things, but one of the monkeys over time might type repeated patterns representing an unknown intelligent signal. Though we can't understand the meaning, that pattern in and of itself could prove the existence of an outside intelligence.

[Russ]

Hey Chip: What if the aliens are "Wind Talkers"? We'll never be able to understand them! :x :wink: :lol:

[Evan]

Russ said

Yeah, yeah, I know, your dog does what you tell him. All that means is that he was smart enough to learn your language and you weren't smart enough to learn his.

Ha! I have a Karelian Bear Dog. I can understand her just fine. She has a complete repretoire of grumbles, whines, and various barks that all have specific meaning. She is a terrible back seat driver and rides with us to and from work every day. She makes grumbling comments on my driving, especially when I take what she considers a wrong turn. When out in the yard I can easily tell from her bark if she has spotted some deer, a person walking up the driveway or a squirrel. When she wants to go out she emits a hypersonic whine.

This isn't unique. The Bear Dogs are known for this and are very unlike other breeds of dogs as they have all the original wolf instincts intact.

[Chip]

Hey Chip: What if the aliens are "Wind Talkers"? We'll never be able to understand them! :x :wink: :lol:

Good one :D - the point however is not to understand what they are saying, but rather that they are there.

[Russ]

Hey Chip: What if the aliens are "Wind Talkers"? We'll never be able to understand them! :x :wink: :lol:

Good one :D - the point however is not to understand what they are saying, but rather that they are there.

I actually knew that. :) I just wanted to joke with you a little about WW-II communications coding systems. ;) :lol:

[Sticks]

This kind of reminds me of the problem in reverse.

When at Jodrel Bank, regular signal were received from a part of the sky, it was thought possible to be from an alien civilisation and a certain part of the graph was given the intitials LGM (Little Green Men). Then of course they correctly determined that it was a natural phenomenon and the announcement of the discovery of Pulsars was annnounced to the world.

[Russ]

This kind of reminds me of the problem in reverse.

When at Jodrel Bank, regular signal were received from a part of the sky, it was thought possible to be from an alien civilisation and a certain part of the graph was given the intitials LGM (Little Green Men). Then of course they correctly determined that it was a natural phenomenon and the announcement of the discovery of Pulsars was annnounced to the world.

Wasn't Jodrel also the site of the "WOW!" signal. You know, where one of the scientists was going over the previous night's printouts and saw a data set that really surprised him. He wrote WOW with arrows pointing to the data.

The signal was deturmined to not be terresterial but was never seen again, so it could not be claimed as ET.

[Sticks]

I thought that was at the Arecebo dish or some other RT in the US

[Nethius]

even if we did hear them, would we understand it?

[Evan]

How long would it take you to figure out that a sequence of prime numbers is not natural?

The Arecibo Message (http://rip.physics.unk.edu/Astronomy/73by23.html)

[Chip]

even if we did hear them, would we understand it?

If we were sure we picked up a pattern from an alien source, that would imply quite a lot.

(Before ever understanding what the signals were about, it would be the greatest discovery in human history.)

[eburacum45]

I think it would be pretty hard to miss Earth for a very long distance. The Pave-Paws phased array radars put out continous 500 kw tight beams on 420-450 mhz aimed at the sky, 24/7. Should stand out like a light house. We should try looking on similar frequencies.

Only Problem is, such Searches would ONLY find Aliens, with a Martial History, and not those, with More Peaceful Intentions.



A peaceful civilisation might use powerful radar to detect asteroids; no-one, whether alien or not, could be enthusiastic about having asteroids drop on them unannounced.

[aurora]

Get a meaningful conversation going with dolphins or elephants and I'll reconsider my position.


Sort of off-topic, but I just read an article about a study of Prairie Dogs. Apparently, their yips and calls communicate things like "Hawk overhead" and "human with a yellow shirt nearby".

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/healthscience/story/1892040p-9824592c.html


"So far, I think we are showing the most sophisticated communication system that anyone has shown in animals," Slobodchikoff said.

and


The prairie dogs have calls for various predators but also for elk, deer, antelope and cows.

"It's as if they're trying to inform one another what's out there," Slobodchikoff said.

So far, he has recorded at least 20 different "words."

[Russ]

Get a meaningful conversation going with dolphins or elephants and I'll reconsider my position.


Sort of off-topic, but I just read an article about a study of Prairie Dogs. Apparently, their yips and calls communicate things like "Hawk overhead" and "human with a yellow shirt nearby".

http://www.sacbee.com/24hour/healthscience/story/1892040p-9824592c.html


"So far, I think we are showing the most sophisticated communication system that anyone has shown in animals," Slobodchikoff said.

and


The prairie dogs have calls for various predators but also for elk, deer, antelope and cows.

"It's as if they're trying to inform one another what's out there," Slobodchikoff said.

So far, he has recorded at least 20 different "words."

This is interesting. What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them? What was their reply? Did they warn him of the hawk over head?

[Donnie B.]

This is interesting. What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them? What was their reply? Did they warn him of the hawk over head?
They would have, except the hawk got them while they were chatting about the yellow shirt.

Seriously, though, recent developments make it even less likely that we'll pick up any stray signals from ET. For example, much of our communications traffic now runs through optical fiber, which doesn't "leak" signals into space. And our wireless comm is moving toward spread spectrum, which is very difficult to distinguish from random noise if you don't know the exact technique being used. If we've made these improvements, other technological civilizations (if any) probably have too.

[Evan]

The radars won't be turned off any time soon.

[aurora]

This is interesting. What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them? What was their reply? Did they warn him of the hawk over head?

Obviously, a "meaningful conversation" to a prairie dog is limited to chatting about which creatures have wandered into or over the town, or maybe some other basic factoids about their life. They are unlikely to talk to you about nuclear physics or reality TV. :P

Nonetheless, it is rather exciting that the researchers were able to decode the messages.

[Swift]

Obviously, a "meaningful conversation" to a prairie dog is limited to chatting about which creatures have wandered into or over the town, or maybe some other basic factoids about their life. They are unlikely to talk to you about nuclear physics or reality TV. :P

Nonetheless, it is rather exciting that the researchers were able to decode the messages.
The fact that they don't talk about reality TV proves they are an intelligent lifeform. :lol:

[One Skunk Todd]

What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them?

He said: "Have you seen a little monkey getting into trouble around here?"

Oh wait, maybe that was a yellow hat....

[Swift]

What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them?

He said: "Have you seen a little monkey getting into trouble around here?"

Oh wait, maybe that was a yellow hat....
hmmmm, curious.

:wink:

[Tom Mazanec]

According to Rasa's book Mongoose Watch the Dwarf Mongoose has a "language" as complicated as the prarie dog's if not more so.

[Russ]

This is interesting. What did the guy in the yellow shirt say back to them? What was their reply? Did they warn him of the hawk over head?

Obviously, a "meaningful conversation" to a prairie dog is limited to chatting about which creatures have wandered into or over the town, or maybe some other basic factoids about their life. They are unlikely to talk to you about nuclear physics or reality TV. :P

I agree. I don't think I indicated that the conversation had to be sophisticated, just meaningful. "Hey Bucky, watch out for the hawk soaring near the Sun. Love the guy in the yellow shirt." "I've got him yellow guy." would count.


Nonetheless, it is rather exciting that the researchers were able to decode the messages.

Again I agree. Maybe we do have a chance to decode whatever ET sends us. ;) :lol: