Russians I have known

[William Thompson]

All of the Russians I have known have insisted that the moon landings were fake. Then I find that they lack the education or patience to listen otherwise.

Is this common with Russian people?

[Swift]

I doubt that, but many of the Russians I've know have been scientists.

[William Thompson]

Are they well known? I might mention them one day to my Russian friends.

[William Thompson]

I want to know how many Russians think it was a hoax. I tried googling it but found nothing.

[LaurelHS]

Alexei Leonov is Russian and he has described the Apollo hoax theories as "total ignorance."
http://rt.com/news/i-armstrong-bouncing-moon/

[R.A.F.]

I want to know how many Russians think it was a hoax.

Is the opinion of Russians in any way relevant to the validity of Apollo??


Or should I say, why is the opinion of Russians in any way relevant to the validity of Apollo?

[Solfe]

This isn't very scientific but if you look in a Wikipedia article you will see a list of languages down the side. For a language to appear on the list, there has to be a corresponding article in that language. There isn't one for Russian (Русский), so I would imagine that the Moon Landing Hoax isn't a significant/important idea with Russian speakers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moon_landing_conspiracy_theories

Correction: on further study, they have a stub.

[glappkaeft]

I have met some Russian exchange students with some really weird ideas (shrinking earth vs continental drift for instance) when we have our public astronomy events. The sample size is to small though to draw conclusions.

However I have read studies (long time ago - no link) that in circumstances where the population doesn't trust the state sponsored media (basically any dictatorship) that informal rumor/conspiracy based "news reporting" are likely to form. We could be seeing a pattern that formed during the Soviet union. OTOH I see the same pattern with many badly educated Swedes so it could just be you sample of Russians. OTTH the same thing applies to the "I don't trust the government" woo moment in the US who exhibit signs both bad education and distrust of media.

How is that for a definate answer? ;)

[R.A.F.]

The sample size is to small though to draw conclusions.

Which "prompts" me to ask the OP, "how many Russians have you known"?

[Gillianren]

The Soviet government accepted Apollo as fact, though whether that's good or bad so far as the modern Russian is concerned, I don't know.

[gwiz]

Here's a Russian technical magazine saying the hoax is rubbish, and the Russians tracked Apollo to the moon:
http://www.novosti-kosmonavtiki.ru/content/numbers/271/03.shtml

[Extravoice]

FWIW, I personally know two people born in Russia, and one born in (Soviet) Ukraine. Two were born before the Apollo landings, and one after. All three scoff at the Apollo hoax theory.

[ngc3314]

I read a two-volume Russian history of the space race (by Anton Pervushin) in which the author goes to some pains to say that not only are the Apollo-hoax theories nonsense, but information in any village library in Russia is sufficient to show this. I've also worked with an astronomer in the Cuban ministry of science, engineering, and environment (CITMA), who does a lot of outreach (and has even been recognized on the streets of Beijing from dubbed TV appearances). He says that it is not the official position of the Cuban government that the landings were faked, but that he does know of some local schoolteachers who have pushed the idea because it fit so well with political winds.

[slang]

Are they well known? I might mention them one day to my Russian friends.


Alexei Leonov is Russian and he has described the Apollo hoax theories as "total ignorance."

And if your Russian buddies don't know who Alexei Leonov is, they immediately disqualify themselves from talking about anything early human spaceflight related. Not that it would stop them..

[publiusr]

I seem to remember how space museums in Russia are really going through hard times, and how reactionary thinking is really taking off. Space, music and culture are what I know Russians for--that and chess. I consider Botvinnik as outclassing Fischer in terms of staying power...

[William Thompson]

Thanks for the good posts and good rhetorical questions.

[JayUtah]

All the Russians I've asked about the Moon landings were Soviet space engineers. They all think it was real.

[R.A.F.]

Thanks for the good posts and good rhetorical questions.

"How many Russians do you know"?...is not a "rhetorical" question...so, "how many Russians do you know??

[HenrikOlsen]

All the Russians I've asked about the Moon landings were Soviet space engineers. They all think it was real.
Is this an example of confirmation bias or of biased sampling? :)

[Glom]

Is this an example of confirmation bias or of biased sampling? :)

In a way, but it depends on your objective. A sample biased towards people who know about such things is quite a legitimate sample to use in this case.

[El Jefe]

Same here. I know exactly one Russian...a former Soviet Flight Director. He thinks the moon landings were real.

[Mellow]

I know 4 Russians and 2 people from the Ukraine. All of them believe the Americans went to the moon and returned, of the 6 people mentioned, 3 work in IT, 1 person is a plasterer and 2 are homemakers.

[CounterWeight]

This thread actually got me to log in for the first time in years. I know many,many Russians and Ukrainian people (in the hundreds) and have visited both many times - speak the language but not well. Many are very good close, long time friends. Many of the older ones grew up in the USSR time. My own experience is that I have never heard one mention of this 'hoax theory'.

[Skeelton]

Delurking again! Can’t resist :)
I think I should explain whole situation to some extent.

The Russian mass media is literally FLOODED with pseudo-scientific, anti-scientific crap and conspiracy theories. Yes, even "mainstream" sources. Since early perestroika years. It started with "remote healer" Anatoly Kashpirovsky and "live water charger" Chumak on Soviet Central TV Channel in 1989 and went straight downhill. UFOlogy, paranormal, astrology, "pyramid mysteries", "Jewish conspiracies", "free energy" and numerous conspiracy theories are routinely presented as fact or at least as "one side of dispute". Homeopathy reappeared in bizarre incarnation masking as "herbal medicine". Now homeopathic "drugs" are sold alongside of "mainstream" drugs in most post-soviet countries. AFAIK even Nibiru made appearance sometime on mainstream TV as "asteroid incoming, SCIENTISTS say we gonna die" curiosity.
Recentry and in bizarre twist, conspiracy theories usually associated with american "far right" gained popularity: 9/11 conspiracies, New World Order, Bilderberg group, vaccines are poison, artificial HIV, there is no HIV virus, new diseases/viruses are manufactured in laboratories (proponents imply Creationism?) , FED conspiracies, and yes even Obama birth certificate conspirologists exist in Russia now! :)

Now wonder Lunar landing conspiracies are widespread in Russia.
Scientists, engineers and simply educated, intelligent russians exist, but I guess they feel like besieged minority in ocean of pseudoscience.

[R.A.F.]

No(w?) wonder Lunar landing conspiracies are widespread in Russia.

This thread is an effort to determine "if" that is true or not...it certainly isn't "established fact", as you very strongly imply.

[CounterWeight]

Honestly... reading RIAA Novosti, ITAR Tass, etc... I don't see it.

Those I know are skeptical by nature but open minded.

As far as pseudo science and bent quasi factoids and extremeism as you mention - much of the source of that is the english speaking world? At least that is my personal experience - no one holds a candle to us... we just have too much leasure time, media access, disposable income to come up with and consume it all. Many lands and countries I have visited and lived in - folks are far more consumed in the act of survival and have only a fraction of our exposure to it all.

I do have 4 or 5 of the "NASA conspiracy" books - all are in english, published in english speaking countries by english speaking companies, and I have yet to encounter one in a bookstore in the Ukraine or Russia, doesn't mean they don't exist - just I have not seen one (yes I do look) but have not been back since about 2007.

I mean no disrespect whatsoever, but the title of this thread... speaks for itself in that it so odd and different from my experience that it deserves at least some sort of fair and reasoned response.

[Skeelton]

Oh please...
I lived in Soviet Union, experienced all that Big Crash personally and firsthand, watched Russian TV (dropped that bad habit quite few years ago), read russian papers and I still live in post-soviet country.
So I can say with high degree of confidence, yes, Moon hoax theories are quite popular in Russia, and by extension in other post soviet countries also.

I do not have any oficial poll results, but google search "Были ли американцы на луне?" (Were the Americans on the moon? Common used sentence by conspirologists.) - does return 903.000 hits for me, so at least we can say that moon landing conspiracy theories is hot topic russian-speaking internet.

Book publishing is expensive business in Russia, but if you want russian language "Lunar conspiracy" book, I would suggest Лунная афера США by Юрий Мухин :)

[NEOWatcher]

I do not have any oficial poll results, but google search "Были ли американцы на луне?" (Were the Americans on the moon? Common used sentence by conspirologists.) - does return 903.000 hits for me, so at least we can say that moon landing conspiracy theories is hot topic russian-speaking internet.
Hit's doesn't necessarily relate to popularity. Lot's of people slow down to look at traffic accidents.

Beside, in english, the same search returns 35 million hits. Granted, English is more common on the net, but it's still a considerable number.

[HenrikOlsen]

I've seen German pharmacies selling homeopathic "medicine" so that's not a very uncommon wooism and seems to indicate a common level of ignorance rather than any specific country being special.

[Gillianren]

And I'm willing to bet that a not-inconsiderable number of times, the answer to the question is "Yes. Yes, they were."

[Skeelton]

Those are not Gallup results, but I checked results of polls in about dozen 'non-partisan' Russian forums. I excluded 'partisan' forums created or dominated by conspirologists or debunkers.
Typical poll results to question "Were the Americans on the moon?" or reasonably similar question is quite consistent (surprise to me!):
YES - 50 to 60%
NO - 40 to 50%

[Gillianren]

But there are two problems with that.

First, you're still dealing with anecdotal evidence. The reason Gallup results (not that they work in Russia, but anyway) are respected is that they know how to conduct a proper study and how to balance other factors.

Second, what you're dealing with is still a self-selecting group. Generally, you're looking at the people who care enough one way or another to comment online about the Moon landings.

[Swift]

That is interesting Skeelton, though given the nature of the polling, I take the specific numbers with a grain of salt.

But let's say half the population of Russia believes Americans didn't land on the moon. So what? The overwhelming evidence of the events is not changed by public opinion, no matter the country of the "public". Science isn't judged by a popularity contest.

[HenrikOlsen]

Science isn't judged by a popularity contest.
Unfortunately, is occasionally looks like science funding is.

[CounterWeight]

Oh please...
I lived in Soviet Union, experienced all that Big Crash personally and firsthand, watched Russian TV (dropped that bad habit quite few years ago), read russian papers and I still live in post-soviet country.
So I can say with high degree of confidence, yes, Moon hoax theories are quite popular in Russia, and by extension in other post soviet countries also.

I do not have any oficial poll results, but google search "Были ли американцы на луне?" (Were the Americans on the moon? Common used sentence by conspirologists.) - does return 903.000 hits for me, so at least we can say that moon landing conspiracy theories is hot topic russian-speaking internet.

Book publishing is expensive business in Russia, but if you want russian language "Lunar conspiracy" book, I would suggest Лунная афера США by Юрий Мухин :)

Ha!... maybe that is my problem, I was talking about people, not the web. I believe the original post was about "Russians I have known" - I am just responding to that. We must run in very different circles. The popular topic(s) on most minds has noithing to do with the moon landing, or mermaid cities at the bottom of the Atlantic, or anything even close.

[R.A.F.]

Oh please...

"Oh please", what?


I lived in Soviet Union, experienced all that Big Crash personally and firsthand, watched Russian TV (dropped that bad habit quite few years ago), read russian papers and I still live in post-soviet country.
So I can say with high degree of confidence, yes, Moon hoax theories are quite popular in Russia, and by extension in other post soviet countries also.

Are we to suppose to accept your personal experience as evidence of "something"??

Really???

[R.A.F.]

I checked results of polls in about dozen 'non-partisan' Russian forums.

Now we are to consider "Russian forums" as evidence of what the entire country thinks?

Really??

[vonmazur]

The only thing that comes to mind is the language....The word for "West" and "Surprise" are the same...(As in "Surprise Attack"...etc)

Maybe this has some influence on the Proletariate??

Dale

[R.A.F.]

All of the Russians I have known have insisted that the moon landings were fake. Then I find that they lack the education or patience to listen otherwise.

Is this common with Russian people?

How many Russians have you known?

[William Thompson]

How many Russians have you known?

Is that your big, important question?
I guess it is if you are suggesting that my idea is illogical because it is based on small numbers and thus a logical fallacy.
I have known only the ones I have worked closely with and the answer is (drum roll) FOUR.

[captain swoop]

I can probably find 4 people amontg those I have worked with over the years that think Apollo was a Fake.

[R.A.F.]

Is that your big, important question?

Yep...I hate to have unanswered questions...


I guess it is if you are suggesting that my idea is illogical because it is based on small numbers and thus a logical fallacy. I have known only the ones I have worked closely with and the answer is (drum roll) FOUR.

You must admit that "4" is just not a very large sample size...and I'll let others decide if it's any kind of "fallacy".


...thanks for answering...

[edcoyle]

Is the opinion of Russians in any way relevant to the validity of anything??

[JayUtah]

Is the opinion of Russians in any way relevant to the validity of anything??

To the validity per se of a proposition, no. To belief in the proposition, perhaps. The Soviets were technologically comparable to the United States and were engaged in trying to solve many of the same problems. That makes the Soviet aerospace community a valid expert witness on the claims of NASA. Further, they were competitors in the same endeavor, which motivates them to find fraud if there is any.

The opinions of rank and file Russians (or Americans, or Guatemalans, etc.) really have no bearing on either side of the question.

[BigDon]

Well, every Russian I've ever invited to a game of D&D (eleven) has enjoyed his or herself. A 100% for a random sampling of eleven isn't bad. Six of them were a squad of Russian marines who came back for four sittings.

Does this mean Russians like D&D or just like the way *I* referee D&D games? (One of my friends said Russains always like a good speaker.)

[captain swoop]

Well, the only Russians I have seen up close were the crew of a Krivak that tried to cut usin half when we got a bit close to one of their (At the time new) Carriers on it's maiden voyage into the Atlantic off Iceland back in the 80s.
It was the only time I heard 'Close All Watertight Openings' Condition Zulu' in peacetime.

So I would say all Russians try to kill me based on a sample of 300 on a Destroyer?

[BigDon]

Well, the only Russians I have seen up close were the crew of a Krivak that tried to cut usin half when we got a bit close to one of their (At the time new) Carriers on it's maiden voyage into the Atlantic off Iceland back in the 80s.
It was the only time I heard 'Close All Watertight Openings' Condition Zulu' in peacetime.

So I would say all Russians try to kill me based on a sample of 300 on a Destroyer?

If its any consolation, whenever transiting the Straits of Malaucca I have pelted Russian destroyers with various foreign objects such as D cells and potatoes as they come alongside. Sometimes we would get TOO organized and get in trouble with our own flightdeck officers. (Mass moonings and such.)

[moog]

So I would say all Russians try to kill me based on a sample of 300 on a Destroyer?

Seems a reasonable conclusion.
A sample size of 300 is pretty good.
There is a certain amount of prior plausibility there as well.


If its any consolation, whenever transiting the Straits of Malaucca I have pelted Russian destroyers with various foreign objects such as D cells and potatoes as they come alongside. Sometimes we would get TOO organized and get in trouble with our own flightdeck officers. (Mass moonings and such.)

I expect they did much of the same in return?

[BigDon]

Seems a reasonable conclusion.
A sample size of 300 is pretty good.



I expect they did much of the same in return?

No, we were both 80 feet above them and they had to do a full lock down of the weather decks to prevent injury to their deck crews.