Sententia's Chemtrail Claims

[Sententia]

Oh, agh. You have it exactly backwards. We don't have to prove you wrong. You're making the assertion. It is up to you to provide evidence. You don't have any, do you? Just the assertion that "chemicals are bad!"



Will you be keeping exact records of how much water, light, and other factors are introduced to the plants, or will you just declare that any differences must be due to "chemicals"?

In this case yes, the fact is chemicals are dumped throughout the air in various places, all throughout the year.

From 1999 Studies done by independend laboraties indicate that the following elements can be found in our air as well as rain water: Aluminium, Barium, Polymer Fibers, PH: Acidic, Mixed Pathogen Soup increasing in strenght, Mycoplasma.

As you may imagine, this mix of chemicals and pathogens is not healthy for you. Doctors have noticed a 3000% increase respiratory illnesses from unknown airborne causes since 1996!

Try this interesting test yourself. Go through your photos as far back as you can. See if you can find chemtrails in your pictures and when they start to appear. Chemtrials have been found as far back as 1984. Especially the heavy populated areas.

No concrete proof exists and no govermental admissions have been issued for the Chemtrail operation. It has been openly admitted by the Pentagon that the U.S. military has performed many biological warfare tests on unknowing servicemen in the past, additionally the Wall Street Journal and the Washington Post have even reported that civilians may have died as a result of exposure to live agents sprayed by the Army and Navy during biological warfare tests.

[PetersCreek]

Sententia,

I have moved this post to a thread of it's own. If you wish to pursue this line of discussion, you will be subject to the rules of the CT forum. If you do not wish to assume the burden thereof, say so and I will consider the claim withdrawn and close this thread.

[Sententia]

Sententia,

I have moved this post to a thread of it's own. If you wish to pursue this line of discussion, you will be subject to the rules of the CT forum. If you do not wish to assume the burden thereof, say so and I will claim withdrawn and close this thread.

I'll defend it, It's just my personal belief. Some may disagree, and not think cynicism could ever happen to gain profit and control, I however disagree with those claims.

[JayUtah]

...

See if you can find chemtrails in your pictures and when they start to appear.

I see no pictures of "chemtrails" at any time. I see pictures of condensation trails "contrails" going back to the 1940s over many areas populated and otherwise.

No concrete proof exists and no govermental admissions have been issued for the Chemtrail operation.

Agreed. There is no evidence that airliners are intentionally dumping chemicals designed to affect the environment or population.

It has been openly admitted by the Pentagon that the U.S. military has performed many biological warfare tests on unknowing servicemen in the past...

This may be true, but are you arguing it is connected to a "chemtrail" claim?

...reported that civilians may have died as a result of exposure to live agents sprayed by the Army and Navy during biological warfare tests.

This may be true, and unfortunate if so, but are you claiming this is connected to some "chemtrail" claim?

The evidence suggests tests on servicemen and any collateral effects are few and isolated. This is not generally congruent with the notion of widespread systematic use of commercial airliners to spread chemicals.

[TheOncomingStorm]

From 1999 Studies done by independend laboraties indicate that the following elements can be found in our air as well as rain water: Aluminium, Barium, Polymer Fibers, PH: Acidic, Mixed Pathogen Soup increasing in strenght, Mycoplasma.
That can come a number of sources in the world where is the proof that they are being dumped in the air by planes.

[Sardonicone]

I'll defend it, It's just my personal belief. Some may disagree, and not think cynicism could ever happen to gain profit and control, I however disagree with those claims.

What you "think" here doesn't matter. What you can prove, or at the very least, provide evidence for, does.

If you cannot defend your claims with actual evidence, you are required by the forum rules to withdraw your claim.

If anyone is being cynical here, it would be you, since you're the one purporting people are essentially being culled for the sake of profit and control.

If you have evidence for your chem-trail conspiracy, I'd love to see it.

[Sententia]

See if you can find chemtrails in your pictures and when they start to appear.

I see no pictures of "chemtrails" at any time. I see pictures of condensation trails "contrails" going back to the 1940s over many areas populated and otherwise.

No concrete proof exists and no govermental admissions have been issued for the Chemtrail operation.

Agreed. There is no evidence that airliners are intentionally dumping chemicals designed to affect the environment or population.

It has been openly admitted by the Pentagon that the U.S. military has performed many biological warfare tests on unknowing servicemen in the past...

This may be true, but are you arguing it is connected to a "chemtrail" claim?

...reported that civilians may have died as a result of exposure to live agents sprayed by the Army and Navy during biological warfare tests.

This may be true, and unfortunate if so, but are you claiming this is connected to some "chemtrail" claim?

The evidence suggests tests on servicemen and any collateral effects are few and isolated. This is not generally congruent with the notion of widespread systematic use of commercial airliners to spread chemicals.

Although no government supplied evidence exists of such activity's, independent evidence however does. Like what chemicals where found in our air. Why would the government want something like it declassified ?

[Sententia]

What you "think" here doesn't matter. What you can prove, or at the very least, provide evidence for, does.

If you cannot defend your claims with actual evidence, you are required by the forum rules to withdraw your claim.

If anyone is being cynical here, it would be you, since you're the one purporting people are essentially being culled for the sake of profit and control.

If you have evidence for your chem-trail conspiracy, I'd love to see it.

I've posted my evidence already, People like to be so text book here and go by the book... wheres the proof the chem trails are non existent ? Not all trails look the same from my observation.

Does the government use chemicals through the air, to put out fires for say in California ? Yes or no.

If they do that, why do you not believe that they release chemicals throughout the air, like they do in water ?

[Garrison]

In this case yes, the fact is chemicals are dumped throughout the air in various places, all throughout the year.

From 1999 Studies done by independend laboraties indicate that the following elements can be found in our air as well as rain water: Aluminium, Barium, Polymer Fibers, PH: Acidic, Mixed Pathogen Soup increasing in strenght, Mycoplasma.

As you may imagine, this mix of chemicals and pathogens is not healthy for you. Doctors have noticed a 3000% increase respiratory illnesses from unknown airborne causes since 1996!



First thing is do you have references for those claims? Secondly, assuming that you can satisfactorily demonstrate you claims, Do you have anyway to connect these airborne chemicals to some deliberate program rather than simply pollution?
That governments have conducted some questionable experiments in the past, Tuskegee comes to mind, does not prove the existence of chemtrails.

[LaurelHS]

I've posted my evidence already, People like to be so text book here and go by the book... wheres the proof the chem trails are non existent ?

The way things work on this board is that the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. You are the one saying chemtrails exist, so it's up to you to prove this. It's not up to us to prove that chemtrails are non-existent.

[Van Rijn]

Although no government supplied evidence exists of such activity's, independent evidence however does.


Then present it.



Like what chemicals where found in our air.


Please present evidence, references and specifically how it supports "chemtrails."

[Sententia]

First thing is do you have references for those claims? Secondly, assuming that you can satisfactorily demonstrate you claims, Do you have anyway to connect these airborne chemicals to some deliberate program rather than simply pollution?
That governments have conducted some questionable experiments in the past, Tuskegee comes to mind, does not prove the existence of chemtrails.

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml

[Garrison]

I've posted my evidence already, People like to be so text book here and go by the book... wheres the proof the chem trails are non existent ? Not all trails look the same from my observation.

Does the government use chemicals through the air, to put out fires for say in California ? Yes or no.

If they do that, why do you not believe that they release chemicals throughout the air, like they do in water ?

Firstly its your theory, its up to you to support it with actual evidence, your statement of beliefs is not evidence.
Secondly what does the publicly recorded use of fire suppressant chemicals on fires have to do with chemtrails? I've seen military planes firing missiles and dropping bombs, does that mean I should expect to come under aerial attack every time a passenger plane flies overhead?
The appearance of contrails is going to vary with atmospheric conditions, again not evidence to support your theory.

[LaurelHS]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml

Do you have anything besides an anonymous report from a conspiracy site?

[Sententia]

Have you eliminated other more mundane explanations for the chemicals found in our air? What makes chemtrails the most likely explanation?

This is a conspiracy theory topic. My conspiracy theory is that the government is allowing corporations to spray chemicals throughout the air. Either by the FDA, Big Pharma.. or both for that matter. You argue that the trails left behind are Jet exhaust or vapor ? and for most cases this is true, and in specific cases I do not.

[TheOncomingStorm]

How can you tell the difference between the chemicals from that people think are coming from airplanes and from factories, car engines and other sources?

[slang]

INot all trails look the same from my observation.

No, really!? And it doesn't occur to you that this might have something to do with the fact that there are many different types of aircraft flying around, with anything from 1 to 8 or more engines of many types creating exhaust in different atmospheric conditions at different altitudes in varying light conditions? Instead you'd rather ignore all that and think that because one contrail looks different from another, that there must be something strange going on?

[PetersCreek]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml

Not good enough, I'm afraid. You may make specific references to off-site materials but you may not 'argue by link'. Make your argument here.

[Sententia]

Do you have anything besides an anonymous report from a conspiracy site?

Lauren, can you provide me proof and convince me otherwise ? since this is my topic, You could try and persuade me otherwise but I'm not too convinced just by the arguments I'm seeing. "Jet Exhaust, Vapor" ?? That doesn't explain how those chemicals got into our air, or why respiratory illnesses have increased so significantly, or why crops aren't growing like they should.

[LaurelHS]

Even the Chemtrail Central site admits in their FAQ (http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/chemfaq.shtml) that "no concrete proof exists" for chemtrails. And it's already been explained that the burden of proof falls with you here.

[Sardonicone]

I've posted my evidence already,


Firstly, the information you posted is merely proof there are chemicals in the air.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It does not prove:

1. The chemicals were put there by any particular source. (Namely, the planes you claim are doing it).

2. It was done so intentionally.



People like to be so text book here and go by the book... wheres the proof the chem trails are non existent ?

It has already been stated to you per forum rules since you are the one purporting a theory, you are the one who must prove it. We are under no such burden, as the mainstream opinion is that there is no conspiracy by jetliners to poison our air.

You cannot shift the burden of proof on us. This is YOUR theory, as such, you are the one required to defend it.


Not all trails look the same from my observation.

Not all apples look the same from my observation. However I have no idea how that would prove there is a conspiracy amongst orchard owners. Each contrail will look different, because each contrail is created under unique circumstances involving a myriad amount of factors.


Does the government use chemicals through the air, to put out fires for say in California ? Yes or no.

Irrelevant. Putting out fires from planes doesn't point to there being a conspiracy, other than perhaps fire fighters are conspiring to put out fires.


If they do that, why do you not believe that they release chemicals throughout the air, like they do in water ?

I believe in evidence. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is happening.

Again, if you are unable to provide solid proof, then by the forum rules you will have to withdraw your claim. You can't just say "I feel", or "something looks different to me" and then use hand waving and irrelevant comparisons and use that as evidence for a mass conspiracy.

[Garrison]

http://www.chemtrailcentral.com/report.shtml

The gist of that report is that there were some airplanes they couldn't identify and they left contrails that looked strange to the authors of the report, not what I would call evidence.

[Sententia]

Not good enough, I'm afraid. You may make specific references to off-site materials but you may not 'argue by link'. Make your argument here.

The gentleman asked for a reference. If someone asks for one again, I'll simply direct them to your comment then, otherwise I'll just lift what I learn from the research I've done.

[Van Rijn]

Lauren, can you provide me proof and convince me otherwise ?


Can you prove there isn't an invisible elf in my backyard?

You are making the chemtrail claim. It is your burden of proof. You can, if you wish, believe anything you want, but if you're going to argue for it here, it is up to you to present the evidence.

[Sententia]

Firstly, the information you posted is merely proof there are chemicals in the air.

Nothing more, nothing less.

It does not prove:

1. The chemicals were put there by any particular source. (Namely, the planes you claim are doing it).

2. It was done so intentionally.




It has already been stated to you per forum rules since you are the one purporting a theory, you are the one who must prove it. We are under no such burden, as the mainstream opinion is that there is no conspiracy by jetliners to poison our air.

You cannot shift the burden of proof on us. This is YOUR theory, as such, you are the one required to defend it.



Not all apples look the same from my observation. However I have no idea how that would prove there is a conspiracy amongst orchard owners. Each contrail will look different, because each contrail is created under unique circumstances involving a myriad amount of factors.



Irrelevant. Putting out fires from planes doesn't point to there being a conspiracy, other than perhaps fire fighters are conspiring to put out fires.



I believe in evidence. Just because something is possible doesn't mean it is happening.

Again, if you are unable to provide solid proof, then by the forum rules you will have to withdraw your claim. You can't just say "I feel", or "something looks different to me" and then use hand waving and irrelevant comparisons and use that as evidence for a mass conspiracy.

How did the chemicals get there ???

If it wasn't done intentionally, Why aren't we seeing anyone fixing the problem?

I provided evidence, It's a conspiracy theory. If you want to go on your knowledge alone, then be my guest and be left in the dark.

[Garrison]

Lauren, can you provide me proof and convince me otherwise ? since this is my topic, You could try and persuade me otherwise but I'm not too convinced just by the arguments I'm seeing. "Jet Exhaust, Vapor" ?? That doesn't explain how those chemicals got into our air, or why respiratory illnesses have increased so significantly, or why crops aren't growing like they should.

Now that's a new claim and one you should be able to find independent figures to support, crop yields in North America and Europe are hardly secret. If you can show a continuous downward trend that contradicts what you would expect based on the mundane factors such as weather and water supplies then you would have evidence that would at least suggest something unusual is occurring.

[Van Rijn]

The gentleman asked for a reference.


Earlier you made a claim about chemicals in the air. You didn't provide details (such as amounts, where, and when found), a reference to the source of this claim, or why it was related to the chemtrails idea.

The link you provided said nothing about this.

[Sardonicone]

The gentleman asked for a reference. If someone asks for one again, I'll simply direct them to your comment then, otherwise I'll just lift what I learn from the research I've done.

Which brings us to the crux of the issue. What research have you done? What is your background in meteorology, atmospheric conditions, modern avionics, chemistry (organic and otherwise)?

What testing have you done to back up your theory? What methods did you employ whilst doing said testing?

What scientific sources can you cite that help to validate your claim? Where were these papers published? Can you provide the information for the papers?

All you've done is basically post a link and claim you've observed that not all contrails look alike.

[TheOncomingStorm]

So far:
there are airplanes in the air that we do not have information about
they leave trails in the sky
there are chemicals in our air
so therefore the government or some big company is dumping chemicals in to the air

There is a giant leap from the first three to the last one. There a lot of other sources of chemicals that can account for what is being found in the air.

[PetersCreek]

The gentleman asked for a reference. If someone asks for one again, I'll simply direct them to your comment then, otherwise I'll just lift what I learn from the research I've done.

The point is this: if you provide a link you need to explain specifically how it supports your argument. Thowing out a "hey, read this" kind of link doesn't work.

[Sardonicone]

How did the chemicals get there ???

If it wasn't done intentionally, Why aren't we seeing anyone fixing the problem?

I provided evidence, It's a conspiracy theory. If you want to go on your knowledge alone, then be my guest and be left in the dark.

Indeed, how did they get there? That is a direct question I am asking YOU.

I'll appreciate it if you start answering all the direct questions that have been put to you in this thread. "I don't know" is an acceptable answer.

You keep asking questions, yet you're refusing to answer any put to you. I think you are not familiar with the rules of this board. You are the one putting forth a conspiracy theory, therefore it is up to you to defend it, not up to us to defend the mainstream position.

You have yet to provide any evidence of anything, other than there may be chemicals in the air. You've yet to provide evidence for how they got there, and that burden of proof is on you, since you're the one claiming planes are being flown to purposefully poison the air and (possibly?) cull the Earths population.

Also, if that IS your claim, could you explain how the population on this planet continues to increase instead of decrease?

I also noted you made a claim in another post that crop yields are going down. Can you provide evidence that:

1. They are going down.
2. They are going down because of certain atmospheric conditions.
3. Those conditions were caused by chemical spraying from jetliners.

[Sententia]

I'm not going to defend my view on this conspiracy against 6 people. I don't care to continually provide evidence, just to be knit picked at. The fact is our air quality is not great, and has become polluted significantly in the past 20 years so much so that it becomes medically beneficial to people who profit from it. I'll believe independent research, over governmental but that's obviously just me. I never created this topic, but defended my view. Apparently in this "conspiracy" forum, if you get one person who disagrees with 6 other people.... the Mod hasto turn it into a whole nother topic. If someone does agree with me here, will the Mod just move him to the other topic in which I originally posted ?? I'm not withdrawing my belief, if you want to believe what you want go ahead.

[AstroRockHunter]

How did the chemicals get there ???
Well, let's see. Coal fired power plants. Gas fired power plants. Automobile exhaust. Forest fires. Manufacturing plants.



If it wasn't done intentionally, Why aren't we seeing anyone fixing the problem?We are. However, the profit motive of most private companies usually work against cleaning things up.



I provided evidence, It's a conspiracy theory. If you want to go on your knowledge alone, then be my guest and be left in the dark.
I beg to differ. As has been pointed out by MANY others in this thread, you have not provided evidence for your chem trails or conspiracy.

I personally will continue to spend my time and energy working to correct those provable causes, rather than spin my wheels worrying about supposed chem trails.

[Sardonicone]

So far:
there are airplanes in the air that we do not have information about
they leave trails in the sky
there are chemicals in our air
so therefore the government or some big company is dumping chemicals in to the air

There is a giant leap from the first three to the last one. There a lot of other sources of chemicals that can account for what is being found in the air.

I think you need to add that the government/big corporations/whoemever is also doing this in order to gradually poison us.

At least that is what I believe is the end result of his theory.

[Sardonicone]

I'm not going to defend my view on this conspiracy against 6 people. I don't care to continually provide evidence, just to be knit picked at. The fact is our air quality is not great, and has become polluted significantly in the past 20 years so much so that it becomes medically beneficial to people who profit from it. I'll believe independent research, over governmental but that's obviously just me. I never created this topic, but defended my view. Apparently in this "conspiracy" forum, if you get one person who disagrees with 6 other people.... the Mod hasto turn it into a whole nother topic. If someone does agree with me here, will the Mod just move him to the other topic in which I originally posted ?? I'm not withdrawing my belief, if you want to believe what you want go ahead.

So just to be clear: You are refusing to withdraw your claim(s) and you are also going to refuse to provide direct answers to our direct questions?

[Tomblvd]

From 1999 Studies done by independend laboraties indicate that the following elements can be found in our air as well as rain water: Aluminium, Barium, Polymer Fibers, PH: Acidic, Mixed Pathogen Soup increasing in strenght, Mycoplasma.

Do you have any evidence that any of those items are at all unusual?


Try this interesting test yourself. Go through your photos as far back as you can. See if you can find chemtrails in your pictures and when they start to appear. Chemtrials have been found as far back as 1984. Especially the heavy populated areas.

How about 1944???

http://i665.photobucket.com/albums/vv13/Tom1blvd/b17-contrails.jpg

How many more pictures from how many different decades since the 40s do you want?

[Gillianren]

I'm not going to defend my view on this conspiracy against 6 people.

Ask for the thread to be closed, then, and don't make any more claims. Your claim, your burden of proof.


I don't care to continually provide evidence, just to be knit picked at.

Must . . . resist . . . temptation!


The fact is our air quality is not great, and has become polluted significantly in the past 20 years so much so that it becomes medically beneficial to people who profit from it.

Are they breathing separate air? How about their loved ones?


I'll believe independent research, over governmental but that's obviously just me. I never created this topic, but defended my view. Apparently in this "conspiracy" forum, if you get one person who disagrees with 6 other people.... the Mod hasto turn it into a whole nother topic. If someone does agree with me here, will the Mod just move him to the other topic in which I originally posted ?? I'm not withdrawing my belief, if you want to believe what you want go ahead.

You haven't shown any real research of any kind. I'll stick to evidence, and if you actually show some, well, I'll consider changing my opinion. That's the issue, not how many people are opposed to you here.

[Sententia]

So just to be clear: You are refusing to withdraw your claim(s) and you are also going to refuse to provide direct answers to our direct questions?

All you can do is ask for evidence, and want definitive proof. You can believe that it's jetplane exhaust, and vapor in every single trail. That is your belief, mine is different based on experiments conducted independently. You think the air pollution may come from, coal plants, cars, ?? Partially it does, though measured in the air after distinctive chem trails... ?

[PetersCreek]

I'm not going to defend my view on this conspiracy against 6 people. I don't care to continually provide evidence, just to be knit picked at. The fact is our air quality is not great, and has become polluted significantly in the past 20 years so much so that it becomes medically beneficial to people who profit from it. I'll believe independent research, over governmental but that's obviously just me. I never created this topic, but defended my view. Apparently in this "conspiracy" forum, if you get one person who disagrees with 6 other people.... the Mod hasto turn it into a whole nother topic. If someone does agree with me here, will the Mod just move him to the other topic in which I originally posted ?? I'm not withdrawing my belief, if you want to believe what you want go ahead.

The OP of this thread was split off because it was off-topic to the thread in which you originally posted it. So, of course, I'm not going to move the posts of those who agree with you back to that thread just so you can continue the hijack.

If you are withdrawing your defense of the claim, then I will consider the claim itself withdrawn for the purpose of discussion and close this thread. Is that your wish?

[Sententia]

I voice my opinions and beliefs. They're always subjected to change, but probably not this one.

[Garrison]

I'm not going to defend my view on this conspiracy against 6 people. I don't care to continually provide evidence, just to be knit picked at. The fact is our air quality is not great, and has become polluted significantly in the past 20 years so much so that it becomes medically beneficial to people who profit from it. I'll believe independent research, over governmental but that's obviously just me. I never created this topic, but defended my view. Apparently in this "conspiracy" forum, if you get one person who disagrees with 6 other people.... the Mod hasto turn it into a whole nother topic. If someone does agree with me here, will the Mod just move him to the other topic in which I originally posted ?? I'm not withdrawing my belief, if you want to believe what you want go ahead.

You've yet to provide one shred of evidence, that's the problem. As for air quality have you actually bothered to do any research on the subject? Can you show me one paper from any scientific journal that charts air quality in any major city over that twenty years you are bringing up?
You've been given your own thread to discuss you claims, if anyone wants support you they can find it easily and post here but they will also be asked to provide evidence if they make the same claims.

[AstroRockHunter]

I voice my opinions and beliefs. They're always subjected to change, but probably not this one.
Belive what you want. Until you can provide evidence to support your beliefs, you're just spinning your wheels.

[Sententia]

The OP of this thread was split off because it was off-topic to the thread in which you originally posted it. So, of course, I'm not going to move the posts of those who agree with you back to that thread just so you can continue the hijack.

If you are withdrawing your defense of the claim, then I will consider the claim itself withdrawn for the purpose of discussion and close this thread. Is that your wish?

It's like any conspiracy theory really. Do any of you believe in any conspiracy theory and if so what is it ?

1.
a theory that explains an event as being the result of a plot by a covert group or organization; a belief that a particular unexplained event was caused by such a group.
2.
the idea that many important political events or economic and social trends are the products of secret plots that are largely unknown to the general public.

This would be what constitutes a conspiracy theory. I have a belief, that is based on independent research with a link I provided earlier, with other information I provided earlier aswell. It's not a sporadic radical theory like what people are making it seem like.

[Garrison]

All you can do is ask for evidence, and want definitive proof. You can believe that it's jetplane exhaust, and vapor in every single trail. That is your belief, mine is different based on experiments conducted independently. You think the air pollution may come from, coal plants, cars, ?? Partially it does, though measured in the air after distinctive chem trails... ?

If you have details of those experiments then detail them here. If you have the measurements present them here. That is all anyone is asking you to do. Otherwise you are simply not going to convince anyone there is any substance to your argument.

[Sententia]

http://minnesotansforglobalwarming.com/m4gw/2009/04/08/chemtrails.jpg

If you guys want to believe that, this is natural.... and those trails make no significant impact on health, agriculture, or whatever else for that matter, then all the power to you!.

[PetersCreek]

It's like any conspiracy theory really. Do any of you believe in any conspiracy theory and if so what is it ?

That's a (meta) discussion for another thread.

Lacking a direct answer to my question, I'm closing this thread with the assumption that you are unwilling or unable to substantively defend your claim. If you disagree, you may report this post to bring it to the attention of the moderation team.